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Post by fenris on Oct 26, 2016 16:44:09 GMT
I've read a lot of threads here lately, and people keep saying the DA2 was Hawke's story...
I always felt that simply wasn't exactly the case. It was a story told through Hawke's eyes, which is not the same. The DA2 splash screen has Hawke in the center, but if you look at the dragon in the back, you see its wings create the silhouette of other people. Lately, I am beginning to think that the game is actually about THEIR stories, rather than Hawke's. Hawke is a passing character in a vast city of stories belonging to different people. Which is why, I think, the emphasis on everyone else rather than the main plot does this game a lot of good (I'm still thinking if it's not my favorite in the series, despite all of its flaws).
I always felt that the NPCs in this game were the best in the series. The antagonists were for sure the best (the Arishok was AMAZING, and even Meridith was a good antagonist, even if she was driven mad at the end). The NPC side-quests were great, interesting and took a great deal of time (much more than they do in DA:O and in DA:I). Even the people of the city were interesting with their own stories (the Viscount's son was a particularly interesting character IMHO).
It just feels like Hawke is basically a side character in the story.
Now, is it good or bad? I guess different people will see it in different ways. I personally REALLY liked it. I think it was a bold effort to do a game that was completely different than other fantasy RPGs, and it felt like it too.
In conclusion: it is my dream to one day see a game like DA:O, but with a major city with the depth of Kirkwall, like a game within a game.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Oct 26, 2016 18:14:08 GMT
Well, you could argue that for pretty much any RPG, though Personally, I'd like some more attention to be given to the protagonists' thoughts, feelings, and development in Bioware games, because yeah, it often feels like you only exist to listen to and help your companions, while they don't return the favour
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 26, 2016 18:33:21 GMT
For me it is Hawke's story, and I don't feel that Hawke is a side character. The thing is, your character in an RPG will always exist partly in your imagination, since it's impossible, for the time being, to give them all the lines you'd want them to speak. I have a very strong imagination, and I have no trouble filling all the blanks.
I agree, however, that Bioware should give their main characters more options to express their thoughts and feelings, and also give them the ability to make intelligent points in conversations rather than limiting them to general statements vaguely hinting at something more.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 26, 2016 22:22:02 GMT
Well, technically it isn't even a story told through Hawke's eyes. It's Varric's story, about Hawke, told through his eyes. Cassandra is interrogating him specifically about the events leading up to the confrontation in the Gallows, so it's technically really about Kirkwall and all the various characters involved. Hawke is the center of the story only as far as he/she was the common thread between them all. So exactly how much Hawke had to do with those events is debatable. They purposely made Varric the unreliable narrator, and that leaves a lot up to player interpretation. I remember way before DAI, there were some tin foil hat theories about whether Hawke even really existed or was just a character Varric made up as cover. Obviously Hawke really did many of the things claimed, and this is backed up in DAI. But Hawke is still not the usual kind of PC they usually write. It's my favorite in the series and I hope they make one like it again someday. Maybe for a different IP, since Dragon Age has gone in a different direction. But I liked the concept a lot.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 27, 2016 0:00:01 GMT
Well, technically it isn't even a story told through Hawke's eyes. It's Varric's story, about Hawke, told through his eyes. Cassandra is interrogating him specifically about the events leading up to the confrontation in the Gallows, so it's technically really about Kirkwall and all the various characters involved. Hawke is the center of the story only as far as he/she was the common thread between them all. So exactly how much Hawke had to do with those events is debatable. They purposely made Varric the unreliable narrator, and that leaves a lot up to player interpretation. I remember way before DAI, there were some tin foil hat theories about whether Hawke even really existed or was just a character Varric made up as cover. Obviously Hawke really did many of the things claimed, and this is backed up in DAI. But Hawke is still not the usual kind of PC they usually write. It's my favorite in the series and I hope they make one like it again someday. Maybe for a different IP, since Dragon Age has gone in a different direction. But I liked the concept a lot. I was going to say this almost exactly. Kirkwall itself is almost the "main character" of this story, but otherwise, I think of DA2 as Hawke's story told through Varric's eyes, with all the exaggeration and embellishments that probably entails (but with fewer extravagant lies than "Tale of the Champion," I guess).
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 27, 2016 1:01:43 GMT
I feel like it's definitely Hawke's story - or rather, it's Varric's story about Hawke.
I appreciated that the protagonist felt like a real person who could actually exist in the setting and not just an avatar for the player to live vicariously through, if that makes sense? So it doesn't bother me that the world doesn't revolve around Hawke (even if they are sort of the cornerstone for their companions).
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 27, 2016 13:59:14 GMT
It's my favorite in the series and I hope they make one like it again someday. Maybe for a different IP, since Dragon Age has gone in a different direction. But I liked the concept a lot. I can't say that DA2 is my favorite game - I find it too restrictive in the way companion interaction is handled, it has my least favorite set of companions (too stereotypical), combat encounters suck and its combat is unbearable in its parodistic over-the-topness - but I agree about the story. I would like to see another game with a story like this made, only with characters as lifelike as DAO's, less restrictive companion interaction and at least somewhat enjoyable combat.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 27, 2016 15:59:15 GMT
More Varrics story telling what Hawke did with his own brand of spin on it. I like to hear the story told from Hawke or Aveline since she's been with Hawke longer and was with Hawke before getting to Kirkwall.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 27, 2016 12:46:37 GMT
It is a very typical hero's journey kind of story where the protagonist is in the middle of everything that's happening but ultimately it's the things that surround them that are in focus and not themselves. The hero is more like a catalyst for those things to occur.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 16:02:45 GMT
Well, technically it isn't even a story told through Hawke's eyes. It's Varric's story, about Hawke, told through his eyes. Cassandra is interrogating him specifically about the events leading up to the confrontation in the Gallows, so it's technically really about Kirkwall and all the various characters involved. Hawke is the center of the story only as far as he/she was the common thread between them all. So exactly how much Hawke had to do with those events is debatable. They purposely made Varric the unreliable narrator, and that leaves a lot up to player interpretation. I remember way before DAI, there were some tin foil hat theories about whether Hawke even really existed or was just a character Varric made up as cover. Obviously Hawke really did many of the things claimed, and this is backed up in DAI. But Hawke is still not the usual kind of PC they usually write. It's my favorite in the series and I hope they make one like it again someday. Maybe for a different IP, since Dragon Age has gone in a different direction. But I liked the concept a lot. It was also my viewpoint since I played DA2 the first time. I also liked the idea very much. This is what makes DA2 unique, especially since we are introduced to the concept of "a tale within a tale" from the beginning, and later we discover just how unreliable Varric is as a storyteller. More, he even describes the whole process of writing the "Tale of Champion" in Act 3, and why Hawke is the hero instead of him. It`s interesting that DA:O was initially planed in a similar fashion, as a tale told much later by Morrigan. Too bad Bioware changed the plan. The idea of Hawke being a character invented by Varric sounds exciting but quite impossible, since Cassandra would have found out soon that there was no trace of Hawke in Kirkwall during the events. Hawke as linked to the Amells left a lot of evidence. But what if ... the whole story was really about Justice and his plan to bring down the Circles? In this case, maybe most of Cassandra`s suspicions were spot on, she just missed the real culprit. Let`s see... Justice merged with Anders, who was a Grey Warden. Since Justice is able to take control of Anders, and Anders knows some form of blood magic, maybe Justice learned something about the Primeval Thaig and the red lyrium from other GW (by controlling them). Then came to the right spot (Kirkwall), controlled Bartrand in order to start the expedition, and then Varric in order to make him part of it. It`s quite strange how prepared Anders is for the expedition - he knows about several nearby entrances "just by chance". Then it`s child play to make Bartrand to stole the idol and sell it later to Meredith by using mental commands. Meanwhile "Anders" leads them out. If Anders is not part of the expedition, it works the same way - by commanding Bartrand to steal red lyrium. Now Justice has the means to provoke a major crisis between the mages and templars - a crazed Meredith. Then it`s just as easy to make Anders to destroy the Chantry. So why would Justice rely on Hawke as a front figure? Because Hawke had no previous ties with Grey Wardens or Orzamar dwarfs, so the knowledge of the red lyrium could have never been tied to her/him. Even better, what if all this was a plan put in motion by Corypheus, who influenced Anders, and by contagion also Justice? Leading to the discovery of the red lyrium and the freeing of Cory? Just joking! But I like to create alternative explanations. Sort of professional hazard in my case...
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 16:28:51 GMT
More Varrics story telling what Hawke did with his own brand of spin on it. I like to hear the story told from Hawke or Aveline since she's been with Hawke longer and was with Hawke before getting to Kirkwall. I was thinking for some time to write Hawke`s version of the events. This is why I`ve started new PT`s for both DA2 and DA:O (for Anders`s part). Still planning the background - including some interesting events overlooked by Varric, and some new characters. If I finish something and seems to be decent enough, I`ll post the material on this forum. I really like the fans here!
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Post by Sah291 on Jan 29, 2017 16:38:35 GMT
Well, technically it isn't even a story told through Hawke's eyes. It's Varric's story, about Hawke, told through his eyes. Cassandra is interrogating him specifically about the events leading up to the confrontation in the Gallows, so it's technically really about Kirkwall and all the various characters involved. Hawke is the center of the story only as far as he/she was the common thread between them all. So exactly how much Hawke had to do with those events is debatable. They purposely made Varric the unreliable narrator, and that leaves a lot up to player interpretation. I remember way before DAI, there were some tin foil hat theories about whether Hawke even really existed or was just a character Varric made up as cover. Obviously Hawke really did many of the things claimed, and this is backed up in DAI. But Hawke is still not the usual kind of PC they usually write. It's my favorite in the series and I hope they make one like it again someday. Maybe for a different IP, since Dragon Age has gone in a different direction. But I liked the concept a lot. It was also my viewpoint since I played DA2 the first time. I also liked the idea very much. This is what makes DA2 unique, especially since we are introduced to the concept of "a tale within a tale" from the beginning, and later we discover just how unreliable Varric is as a storyteller. More, he even describes the whole process of writing the "Tale of Champion" in Act 3, and why Hawke is the hero instead of him. It`s interesting that DA:O was initially planed in a similar fashion, as a tale told much later by Morrigan. Too bad Bioware changed the plan. The idea of Hawke being a character invented by Varric sounds exciting but quite impossible, since Cassandra would have found out soon that there was no trace of Hawke in Kirkwall during the events. Hawke as linked to the Amells left a lot of evidence. But what if ... the whole story was really about Justice and his plan to bring down the Circles? In this case, maybe most of Cassandra`s suspicions were spot on, she just missed the real culprit. Let`s see... Justice merged with Anders, who was a Grey Warden. Since Justice is able to take control of Anders, and Anders knows some form of blood magic, maybe Justice learned something about the Primeval Thaig and the red lyrium from other GW (by controlling them). Then came to the right spot (Kirkwall), controlled Bartrand in order to start the expedition, and then Varric in order to make him part of it. It`s quite strange how prepared Anders is for the expedition - he knows about several nearby entrances "just by chance". Then it`s child play to make Bartrand to stole the idol and sell it later to Meredith by using mental commands. Meanwhile "Anders" leads them out. If Anders is not part of the expedition, it works the same way - by commanding Bartrand to steal red lyrium. Now Justice has the means to provoke a major crisis between the mages and templars - a crazed Meredith. Then it`s just as easy to make Anders to destroy the Chantry. So why would Justice rely on Hawke as a front figure? Because Hawke had no previous ties with Grey Wardens or Orzamar dwarfs, so the knowledge of the red lyrium could have never been tied to her/him. Even better, what if all this was a plan put in motion by Corypheus, who influenced Anders, and by contagion also Justice? Leading to the discovery of the red lyrium and the freeing of Cory? Just joking! But I like to create alternative explanations. Sort of professional hazard in my case... Yeah, I agree about Morrigan. Though, I think they kind of recaptured that tone a little bit, with having her narrating the ending of DAI. And yep, Anders/Justice as protagonist I could see, especially because I think he shares many things in common with other Bioware protagonists we have had, including DAI's Inquisitor. He's the one with the mysterious power and imperative to change the world, who drives the endgame forward. Meanwhile, Hawke is in many ways a counter intuitive hero. Hawke tends to act more as a catalyst for change, rather than the initiator of it... Hawke is reactive, rather than proactive. But then again, it's this that I found interesting and different. Hawke isn't really there to save the world, but is instead at the center of a lot of chaos and conflict in Kirkwall. Hawke's intentions are also rather ambiguous, which is why Cassandra has it all wrong.
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Post by Sah291 on Jan 29, 2017 16:51:44 GMT
^^^That said, Hawke does get the Chosen One speech from Flemeth, despite being anything but a typical Chosen One protagonist. But then again, being one of Flemeth's 'chosen' might be very different from being the presumed chosen of Andraste or the Maker...so who knows.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 17:12:45 GMT
It`s interesting that DA:O was initially planed in a similar fashion, as a tale told much later by Morrigan. Too bad Bioware changed the plan. I'm glad that was changed. I liked playing through Origins, and how the events were 'real'. There's something of an issue that arises when a narration is used to describe events and you can't tell if the protagonist and the characters in the story were really like this, or if it's simply how the narrator viewed those people. I didn't like how the narrative device was used in Dragon Age II. Too many years were also spent in-between Acts where the protagonist seemed to do nothing (which is why some folks used to joke that Hawke was in a coma during those years).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 17:44:04 GMT
It`s interesting that DA:O was initially planed in a similar fashion, as a tale told much later by Morrigan. Too bad Bioware changed the plan. I'm glad that was changed. I liked playing through Origins, and how the events were 'real'. There's something of an issue that arises when a narration is used to describe events and you can't tell if the protagonist and the characters in the story were really like this, or if it's simply how the narrator viewed those people. I didn't like how the narrative device was used in Dragon Age II. Too many years were also spent in-between Acts where the protagonist seemed to do nothing (which is why some folks used to joke that Hawke was in a coma during those years). We know what they did: all went the same way as in the active parts of the Game: Hawke built a new life and helped in Kirkwall. Varric dealt with the Carta and hid from Merchants' Guild. Merrill worked on restore of the Dalish history, her research and later restore the Mirror and probably helped in the Alienage. Aveline was City Guard(Captain). Isabela looking for the Koslun, later? Who know – probably trying to make a living. Fenris also tried to build a new life, we know that he is undertaken some mercenary works. Anders worked in the clinic, and for mage resistance, and wrote manifestos, for the support of people (sadly, this information available in the rivalry relationship, in friendship Anders feed cats...). Occasionally get together to play cards and drink. I think the relatively long time interval needed for the unfolding of the situation. If one moment to the next things happen, no time for formation of events, then people would cry, how can this happened in such a short period of time...
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 17:48:27 GMT
And yep, Anders/Justice as protagonist I could see, especially because I think he shares many things in common with other Bioware protagonists we have had, including DAI's Inquisitor. He's the one with the mysterious power and imperative to change the world, who drives the endgame forward. Meanwhile, Hawke is in many ways a counter intuitive hero. Hawke tends to act more as a catalyst for change, rather than the initiator of it... Hawke is reactive, rather than proactive. But then again, it's this that I found interesting and different. Hawke isn't really there to save the world, but is instead at the center of a lot of chaos and conflict in Kirkwall. Hawke's intentions are also rather ambiguous, which is why Cassandra has it all wrong. The Justice story was an alternative explanation exercise for me. In order to work it needs to cover every sensible plot element of the "standard" DA2 story. That`s a requirement for an alternative explanation. Still, there is Flemeth`s reaction from DA2`s prologue. My guess is that Flemeth, having that ability to predict the future (also used in "The Stolen Throne") recognizes Hawke as similar to what she is: the fly in the ointment. I don`t think Hawke qualifies as a catalyst - I already had a long debate with Catilina about this - but s/he is the binding element of her/his group. Hawke is unique among the companions, especially since Act 2, as being the descendant of a noble family, and the one who inherit the prerogatives of a head of a noble house. Not Leandra (as the elder daughter) or Gamlen. Until Hawke returns from the expedition, (s)he is just another Fereldan refugee, but after the expedition her/his position changes greatly, more likely helped by Varric`s tales about her/his achievements. (S)he became known by the Arishok and the Viscount, and hurled in the middle of the events. Until that point, Aveline was the most visible member of the group as the future Captain of the Guard. Well, Varric excluded, because I doubt that the Arishok or the Viscount would have ever thought to use Varric`s services. Hawke is reactive, quite true. TOO reactive for my taste, but credible, as a young family head in Act 1, trying to provide a better life for her/his family, and later as a young noble caring for her/his much tried family. Although I always found curious that Hawke never visits Bethany if she`s a Circle mage, despite Leandra visiting her often. So, Hawke gains the attention of both the Arishok and Dumar, then Elthina`s and finally Meredith`s and Orsino`s. It`s more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time occurence in Hawke`s case, because (s)he don`t start anything. Just reacts at the ongoing events, and to what others ask her/him to do. Starting with Dumar and ending with the companions. This is the change from Act 2 onward compared to Act 1. In Act 1 Hawke interacts with most characters (including the companions) as a hireling, or (in case of Merrill) to pay an old debt for Flemeth. (S)he meets Anders for the maps, Varric for the expedition, Fenris/Isabela/Sebastian as a hired hand. Even Aveline hands her/him a job with a possible financial reward. All (s)he does in Act 1 is at least in part for a financial gain. This changes from Act 2. Still, Hawke doesn`t initiate anything. To better understand my point, try to imagine Hawke removed from Kirkwall. To be a credible removal, let`s say the Hawke and Valen families died while running from darkspawn. Thus leaving the rest of companions (except Merrill) in Kirkwall. My guess it that the events would have been quite similar even without Hawke. Possibly much worse, but similar. The Arishok would have attacked Kirkwall, the mage-templar conflict would have reached the same outcome. What`s Hawke`s role then? As Flemeth said: the fly in the ointment. The character placed in the middle of the events. Just like Flemeth predicted long before, outside Lothering... ... And this is another reason of why I like DA2 so much.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 18:14:24 GMT
Hawke is reactive, quite true. TOO reactive for my taste, but credible, as a young family head in Act 1, trying to provide a better life for her/his family, and later as a young noble caring for her/his much tried family. Although I always found curious that Hawke never visits Bethany if she`s a Circle mage, despite Leandra visiting her often. That was an issue for me. While Merrill was constructing an Eluvian from scratch to help the People, Fenris was searching for Varania (who was in the Imperium) despite his status as an escaped slave, and Aveline was reforming the City Guard in what is essentially a Tevinter Hellmouth, Hawke didn't seem to be proactive in the same manner. He only gets involved with the Mage-Templar crisis because he stumbles upon Orsino's protests against Meredith's rule (which has been going on for three years at that point). Hawke's reactivity made it difficult for me to care about the character or his story.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 18:56:57 GMT
Hawke is reactive, quite true. TOO reactive for my taste, but credible, as a young family head in Act 1, trying to provide a better life for her/his family, and later as a young noble caring for her/his much tried family. Although I always found curious that Hawke never visits Bethany if she`s a Circle mage, despite Leandra visiting her often. That was an issue for me. While Merrill was constructing an Eluvian from scratch to help the People, Fenris was searching for Varania (who was in the Imperium) despite his status as an escaped slave, and Aveline was reforming the City Guard in what is essentially a Tevinter Hellmouth, Hawke didn't seem to be proactive in the same manner. He only gets involved with the Mage-Templar crisis because he stumbles upon Orsino's protests against Meredith's rule (which has been going on for three years at that point). Hawke's reactivity made it difficult for me to care about the character or his story. It was intentionally written in this way. The wo/man who is always center of events, despite can do nothing for prevent them. His/her position is important: this is why his/her impotence is more painful. S/he is a noble, s/he is the Champion of Kirkwall, untouchable (and also his/her friends – for example Anders and Merrill), but s/he really "doesn't matter". Despite this impotence, s/he feels responsible for everything. S/he always in the center of the actions, s/he have decision-making capability: s/he decide whom to support, but Kirkwall, his/her new home doomed in any event. Originally Hawke's cause would be to protect the city. Hawke fail in this goal, s/he can't prevent Anders's action (no matter, s/he help him or not, friend of him or enemy...), and feel responsibility about red lyrium and Corypheus. Hero of Ferelden –no matter how unscrupulous prick– saved the world. Inquisitor saved the world. Hawke –no matter how nice, responsible person– failed in the save Kirkwall, failed (partially) in the save of his/her family. And with his/her accidentally help, Corypheus almost destroyed the world...
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lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 19:34:10 GMT
That was an issue for me. While Merrill was constructing an Eluvian from scratch to help the People, Fenris was searching for Varania (who was in the Imperium) despite his status as an escaped slave, and Aveline was reforming the City Guard in what is essentially a Tevinter Hellmouth, Hawke didn't seem to be proactive in the same manner. He only gets involved with the Mage-Templar crisis because he stumbles upon Orsino's protests against Meredith's rule (which has been going on for three years at that point). Hawke's reactivity made it difficult for me to care about the character or his story. It was intentionally written in this way. The wo/man who is always center of events, despite can do nothing for prevent them. His/her position is important: this is why his/her impotence is more painful. S/he is a noble, s/he is the Champion of Kirkwall, untouchable (and also his/her friends – for example Anders and Merrill), but s/he really "doesn't matter". Despite this impotence, s/he feels responsible for everything. S/he always in the center of the actions, s/he have decision-making capability: s/he decide whom to support, but Kirkwall, his/her new home doomed in any event. Originally Hawke's cause would be to protect the city. Hawke fail in this goal, s/he can't prevent Anders's action (no matter, s/he help him or not, friend of him or enemy...), and feel responsibility about red lyrium and Corypheus. Hero of Ferelden –no matter how unscrupulous prick– saved the world. Inquisitor saved the world. Hawke –no matter how nice, responsible person– failed in the save Kirkwall, failed (partially) in the save of his/her family. And with his/her accidentally help, Corypheus almost destroyed the world... But the issue is Hawke being put in such a reactive position. It's one thing to try and fail, it's another matter altogether to mostly react to things instead of being proactive. Fenris and Merrill, for example, don't get the outcomes they had hoped for, but at least they were proactive about their respective situations and tried to do something about it instead of simply reacting to things that are happening.
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adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
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Jan 20, 2017 10:05:58 GMT
January 2017
adrianbc
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 19:40:31 GMT
lobselvith8 This is the beauty of the game! DA2 tried to use a more realistic story - about the fate of a family. Hawke is quite active in Act 1. More active than any companion (when they are not with Hawke anyway). In Act 1 Varric spends his time at the Hanged Man, writing stories, ferreting info and jobs for Hawke. Anders tends for sick at his free clinic. Isabela mostly drinks at the HM and searches for the tome. Merrill reads and wanders the streets. Fenris is content to hide. SEbastian`s only "action" is to write that note for the Chanter board. Aveline does her job at the barracks. While Hawke does job after job. In Act 2 Hawke behaves as a noble with no career. He has a share of the mine (if chosen), sells the spoils from the DR expedition, probably refurnish the old Amell mansion. And rests after some frantic times - the escape from the Blight, the indentured servant year, the adventures from Act 1. Possibly mourns the fate of her/his siblings - one dead (or both), the other a GW far away, or a mage/templar in the Gallows. I`d say this is plenty for Hawke. (S)he is at this point the only one in the band who has a family - if you exclude Varric`s murderous brother Bartrand, who anyway is gone. So her/his inaction is understandable. But the moment (s)he is dragged in the spotlight, Hawke acts decisively. Like Aveline said: "You get things done. For better or worse." The same in Act 3. Hawke just lost Leandra, so probably wasn`t exactly a socially active Champion until trouble emerged again. As for the long interval between the chapters: it`s logical if you consider that it`s really Varric`s story, not Hawke`s journal. Varric left out the mundane stuff, and gave just a brief summary of the daily events between acts. The intervals were decided by the time needed for a crisis to emerge. Of course, the always 3 year gap is not realistic at all. Catilina It`s crazy to consider Hawke responsible for the negative outcomes. (S)he was no Viscount in the time the Arishok was in Kirkwall, no First Enchanter, Grand Cleric or Knight-Commander. As for Corypheus, the game doesn`t let you to die in the prison... Making Hawke responsible for these events is more like accusing somebody who witnessed the drop of a nuclear bomb over a city as the one responsible for it`s destruction.
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Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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August 2016
sah291
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Post by Sah291 on Jan 29, 2017 19:56:30 GMT
Well I don't think Hawke was reactive in the sense that he/she didn't do anything. I meant, in the sense that Hawke was opportunist, and was able to use situations to his/her advantage. That's how Hawke, a peasant and refugee with relatively little power, is able to amass power and influence as a noble again. Hawke had nothing to do with the Qunari, but when sh*t hit the fan, Hawke was there in the middle of it, and getting credit for resolving the problem.
To say that Hawke was like a 'fly in the ointment' as Flemeth was, is to say Hawke was somebody of relatively small and insignificant importance, but who become a big enough nuisance to act as a spoiler.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 20:00:38 GMT
[...] As for the long interval between the chapters: it`s logical if you consider that it`s really Varric`s story, not Hawke`s journal. Varric left out the mundane stuff, and gave just a brief summary of the daily events between acts. The intervals were decided by the time needed for a crisis to emerge. Of course, the always 3 year gap is not realistic at all. Catilina It`s crazy to consider Hawke responsible for the negative outcomes. (S)he was no Viscount in the time the Arishok was in Kirkwall, no First Enchanter, Grand Cleric of Knight-Commander. As for Corypheus, the game doesn`t let you to die in the prison... Making Hawke responsible for these events is more like accusing somebody who witnessed the drop of a nuclear bomb over a city as the one responsible for it`s destruction. I didn't said, Hawke was responsible for Kirkwalls' doom or Corypheus, only that s/he felt responsibility for these. And I said: s/he failed in the save of Kirkwall. This is true, s/he was able to see, that the events are going the wrong way, but wouldn't able to prevent, even if s/he tried to be viscount, or betrayed Anders... The Warden don't reponsible for the Blight, but s/he saved the world. Inquisitor wasn't responsible for the Rifts and rise of Corypheus, but s/he saved the world. Seems they solved the problems, but Hawke induced problems (yes, this is not quite true, but it seems.)
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lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
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August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 20:02:25 GMT
lobselvith8 This is the beauty of the game! DA2 tried to use a more realistic story - about the fate of a family. Hawke is quite active in Act 1. More active than any companion (when they are not with Hawke anyway). In Act 1 Varric spends his time at the Hanged Man, writing stories, ferreting info and jobs for Hawke. Anders tends for sick at his free clinic. Isabela mostly drinks at the HM and searches for the tome. Merrill reads and wanders the streets. Fenris is content to hide. SEbastian`s only "action" is to write that note for the Chanter board. Aveline does her job at the barracks. While Hawke does job after job. The fate of a wealthy family looking to claim a fortune isn't necessarily a more realistic story. Hawke being more active than the companions during Act I is arguable; I don't think Anders helping the sick and impoverished should count as "less work" than what Hawke does simply because Hawke is killing people while Anders is saving lives. In Act 2 Hawke behaves as a noble with no career. He has a share of the mine (if chosen), sells the spoils from the DR expedition, probably refurnish the old Amell mansion. And rests after some frantic times - the escape from the Blight, the indentured servant year, the adventures from Act 1. Possibly mourns the fate of her/his siblings - one dead (or both), the other a GW far away, or a mage/templar in the Gallows. I`d say this is plenty for Hawke. (S)he is at this point the only one in the band who has a family - if you exclude Varric`s murderous brother Bartrand, who anyway is gone. So her/his inaction is understandable. But the moment (s)he is dragged in the spotlight, Hawke acts decisively. Like Aveline said: "You get things done. For better or worse." The same in Act 3. Hawke just lost Leandra, so probably wasn`t exactly a socially active Champion until trouble emerged again. I suppose it's a matter of whether or not you buy into Hawke's story, and some of us didn't. While he does have some emotional range (including anger), he's also predefined quite a bit (such as being religiously Andrastian, something Gaider only changed his mind about for Inquisition because of the criticism levied against Dragon Age about excluding the option of playing as an atheist again). His inaction is troublesome (I don't have any interest in playing a character who is almost always reactive and almost never proactive), and while you can make an argument for inaction, it doesn't really make me feel any differently towards the character when he simply comes across to me as lazy.
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catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 20:04:25 GMT
It was intentionally written in this way. The wo/man who is always center of events, despite can do nothing for prevent them. His/her position is important: this is why his/her impotence is more painful. S/he is a noble, s/he is the Champion of Kirkwall, untouchable (and also his/her friends – for example Anders and Merrill), but s/he really "doesn't matter". Despite this impotence, s/he feels responsible for everything. S/he always in the center of the actions, s/he have decision-making capability: s/he decide whom to support, but Kirkwall, his/her new home doomed in any event. Originally Hawke's cause would be to protect the city. Hawke fail in this goal, s/he can't prevent Anders's action (no matter, s/he help him or not, friend of him or enemy...), and feel responsibility about red lyrium and Corypheus. Hero of Ferelden –no matter how unscrupulous prick– saved the world. Inquisitor saved the world. Hawke –no matter how nice, responsible person– failed in the save Kirkwall, failed (partially) in the save of his/her family. And with his/her accidentally help, Corypheus almost destroyed the world... But the issue is Hawke being put in such a reactive position. It's one thing to try and fail, it's another matter altogether to mostly react to things instead of being proactive. Fenris and Merrill, for example, don't get the outcomes they had hoped for, but at least they were proactive about their respective situations and tried to do something about it instead of simply reacting to things that are happening. Hawke wasn't reactive, often initiated. S/He tried to be viscount, Meredith prevented. S/He worked together with the noble resistance, for a later support. S/He tried to speak with Elthina (or/and Cullen), but it was uneffective (optional).
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adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
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adrianbc
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Jan 20, 2017 10:05:58 GMT
January 2017
adrianbc
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 20:12:27 GMT
Well I don't think Hawke was reactive in the sense that he/she didn't do anything. I meant, in the sense that Hawke was opportunist, and was able to use situations to his/her advantage. That's how Hawke, a peasant and refugee with relatively little power, is able to amass power and influence as a noble again. Hawke had nothing to do with the Qunari, but when sh*t hit the fan, Hawke was there in the middle of it, and getting credit for resolving the problem. To say that Hawke was like a 'fly in the ointment' as Flemeth was, is to say Hawke was somebody of relatively small and insignificant importance, but who become a big enough nuisance to act as a spoiler. Something like that. For me, a reactive Hawke means that (s)he didn`t started any of those critical events, but acted if and when the events caught up with her/him, or was dragged in. For instance, it`s the Arishok who requests Hawke to handle the poison gas incident. Not Hawke making a polite/political visit to the qunari compound, meeting with the Arishok "by chance" and persuading him to ask the Viscount for her/his involvement in the incident. Hawke was an opportunist in Act 1. In Act 2 and 3 her/his involvement is requested each time by the Arishok, Dumar, Elthina, Sebastian, Orsino and Meredith. And (s)he becomes a nuisance in Act 3. Somebody difficult to ignore, standing out in the eyes of Kirkwall`s citizen. On a similar level as Elthina or Meredith, while without political, religious or military power.
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