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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 20:13:45 GMT
But the issue is Hawke being put in such a reactive position. It's one thing to try and fail, it's another matter altogether to mostly react to things instead of being proactive. Fenris and Merrill, for example, don't get the outcomes they had hoped for, but at least they were proactive about their respective situations and tried to do something about it instead of simply reacting to things that are happening. Hawke wasn't reactive, often initiated. S/He tried to be viscount, Meredith prevented. S/He tried to speak with Elthina (or/and Cullen), but it was uneffective. Hawke is reacting to the conflict between Meredith and Orsino, which I wouldn't consider proactive but reactive. Hawke wasn't doing anything about the matter for three entire years. Hawke only aligns with either Meredith or the mages three years after Meredith seizes political power. Even speaking with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter happens after Orsino tries to do something about it. Even the nobles who want to see Meredith ousted initiate plans to deal with her death squad, and simply bring Hawke into it because of his position as Champion.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 20:31:43 GMT
The fate of a wealthy family looking to claim a fortune isn't necessarily a more realistic story. Hawke being more active than the companions during Act I is arguable; I don't think Anders helping the sick and impoverished should count as "less work" than what Hawke does simply because Hawke is killing people while Anders is saving lives. I suppose it's a matter of whether or not you buy into Hawke's story, and some of us didn't. While he does have some emotional range (including anger), he's also predefined quite a bit (such as being religiously Andrastian, something Gaider only changed his mind about for Inquisition because of the criticism levied against Dragon Age about excluding the option of playing as an atheist again). His inaction is troublesome (I don't have any interest in playing a character who is almost always reactive and almost never proactive), and while you can make an argument for inaction, it doesn't really make me feel any differently towards the character when he simply comes across to me as lazy. By being active I mean seeking out jobs, not the amount physical or mental effort. While Anders tends to the sick, he doesn`t patrol the city for patients. He waits for them in his clinic. Hawke is searching for jobs. Hawke is anything but lazy in Act 2 an 3. (S)he is not the Grey Warden in command of a campaign, or the Inquisitor. In both DA:O and DA:I the PC has the job bestowed on her/him at the start of the game, and the subsequent prestige. A GW is the most important person during a Blight. The inquisitor is the only one with the Anchor. Hawke is just an ordinary citizen. Replace the Warden or the Inquisitor with Hawke, and you`ll have the same outcome. This means that the real difference between the three is the context. The Warden / Inquisitor are both chosen by the events. Hawke also earns his Champion title by her/his deeds, not laziness. As for Hawke being Andrastian, there is that dialogue option in Act 1: "It wasn`t the Maker" when responding to Elthina`s claim about the Maker`s intervention to end the Blight. Hawke can be played as a atheist. I have a feeling that you are contesting anything I post because you don`t like DA2. That`s all right, because I don`t like DA:I. Also, I like all Witcher books but not the games. But I don`t understand why the fact that you dislike DA2 and Hawke is a reason to criticize my statements about Hawke.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 20:44:28 GMT
Hawke wasn't reactive, often initiated. S/He tried to be viscount, Meredith prevented. S/He tried to speak with Elthina (or/and Cullen), but it was uneffective. Hawke is reacting to the conflict between Meredith and Orsino, which I wouldn't consider proactive but reactive. Hawke wasn't doing anything about the matter for three entire years. Hawke only aligns with either Meredith or the mages three years after Meredith seizes political power. Even speaking with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter happens after Orsino tries to do something about it. Even the nobles who want to see Meredith ousted initiate plans to deal with her death squad, and simply bring Hawke into it because of his position as Champion. What s/he should do? Just lost his/her mother, and I think, helped in the city rebuild. Qunari war, you remember? Continued to help to his/her friends in their issues, etc. And I think, Varric don't wrote all trivial things, what happened, just some of these. Hawke was one of the nobles. Not a Chosen One.
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 20:46:13 GMT
The fate of a wealthy family looking to claim a fortune isn't necessarily a more realistic story. Hawke being more active than the companions during Act I is arguable; I don't think Anders helping the sick and impoverished should count as "less work" than what Hawke does simply because Hawke is killing people while Anders is saving lives. I suppose it's a matter of whether or not you buy into Hawke's story, and some of us didn't. While he does have some emotional range (including anger), he's also predefined quite a bit (such as being religiously Andrastian, something Gaider only changed his mind about for Inquisition because of the criticism levied against Dragon Age about excluding the option of playing as an atheist again). His inaction is troublesome (I don't have any interest in playing a character who is almost always reactive and almost never proactive), and while you can make an argument for inaction, it doesn't really make me feel any differently towards the character when he simply comes across to me as lazy. By being active I mean seeking out jobs, not the amount physical or mental effort. While Anders tends to the sick, he doesn`t patrol the city for patients. He waits for them in his clinic. Hawke is searching for jobs. It's not like Anders can use magic in public without gaining the notice of the templars. He clearly heals a lot of sick people, which is why so many refugees turn to him for help (and why some of them attempt to stop you when they presume you're a threat to him). As for Hawke being Andrastian, there is that dialogue option in Act 1: "It wasn`t the Maker" when responding to Elthina`s claim about the Maker`s intervention to end the Blight. Hawke can be played as a atheist. You can't play Hawke as an atheist. You have no option to say you don't believe in the Maker. There's even the mandatory dialogue with Feynriel about saying that you hope the Maker watches over him. Even the romance scene with Merrill mentions that Leandra is with the Maker, but there's no opposing view available to express. Gaider also explicitly said that it wasn't made available in Dragon Age II, and said an atheist option wouldn't be available in Inquisition until players voiced their opposition to such a move, and he relented afterwards. I have a feeling that you are contesting anything I post because you don`t like DA2. That`s all right, because I don`t like DA:I. Also, I like all Witcher books but not the games. But I don`t understand why the fact that you dislike DA2 and Hawke is a reason to criticize my statements about Hawke. Contesting? That's a pretty strong statement to use. I don't share your opinion, that's all. I'm also not comparing Dragon Age II to Inquisition. I have problems with Inquisition as well.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 20:50:50 GMT
But the issue is Hawke being put in such a reactive position. It's one thing to try and fail, it's another matter altogether to mostly react to things instead of being proactive. Fenris and Merrill, for example, don't get the outcomes they had hoped for, but at least they were proactive about their respective situations and tried to do something about it instead of simply reacting to things that are happening. Let`s judge the Warden`s actions after her/his Joining at Ostagar: (s)he notice Loghain`s reaction, but does nothing to prevent the outcome. A dwarf noble even has a comment about what could happen. So why the Warden doesn`t act to prevent the massacre and Cailan`s death? Because (s)he is not in a position of power. It`s the same with Hawke. (S)he is a private citizen, unable to decide in political or religious matters. The Warden is able to accomplish the job to gather allies ONLY because (s)he is a Grey Warden, and no other reason. For instance, being admitted inside Orzamar while (s)he was a castless criminal. As for Fenris and Merrill: both needs Hawke`s help.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 20:52:50 GMT
Hawke is reacting to the conflict between Meredith and Orsino, which I wouldn't consider proactive but reactive. Hawke wasn't doing anything about the matter for three entire years. Hawke only aligns with either Meredith or the mages three years after Meredith seizes political power. Even speaking with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter happens after Orsino tries to do something about it. Even the nobles who want to see Meredith ousted initiate plans to deal with her death squad, and simply bring Hawke into it because of his position as Champion. What s/he should do? Just lost his/her mother, and I think, helped in the city rebuild. Qunari war, you remember? Continued to help to his/her friends in their issues, etc. And I think, Varric don't wrote all trivial things, what happened, just some of these. Hawke was one of the nobles. Not a Chosen One. I'm pretty sure 'doing nothing' wasn't the only option Hawke had, and there were a plethora of threads made about Hawke being passive in the wake of Dragon Age II, so this shouldn't be new for anyone. He shows little desire to be active, even though there's dialogue to tell Varric you want power, but apparently does nothing about it. There's also no dialogue that indicates Hawke helped rebuild the city. He had a statute built in his image on the docks, and he was named Champion. He's incredibly passive, and I just didn't care about him.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 20:59:42 GMT
By being active I mean seeking out jobs, not the amount physical or mental effort. While Anders tends to the sick, he doesn`t patrol the city for patients. He waits for them in his clinic. Hawke is searching for jobs. It's not like Anders can use magic in public without gaining the notice of the templars. He clearly heals a lot of sick people, which is why so many refugees turn to him for help (and why some of them attempt to stop you when they presume you're a threat to him). As for Hawke being Andrastian, there is that dialogue option in Act 1: "It wasn`t the Maker" when responding to Elthina`s claim about the Maker`s intervention to end the Blight. Hawke can be played as a atheist. You can't play Hawke as an atheist. You have no option to say you don't believe in the Maker. There's even the mandatory dialogue with Feynriel about saying that you hope the Maker watches over him. Even the romance scene with Merrill mentions that Leandra is with the Maker, but there's no opposing view available to express. Gaider also explicitly said that it wasn't made available in Dragon Age II, and said an atheist option wouldn't be available in Inquisition until players voiced their opposition to such a move, and he relented afterwards. I have a feeling that you are contesting anything I post because you don`t like DA2. That`s all right, because I don`t like DA:I. Also, I like all Witcher books but not the games. But I don`t understand why the fact that you dislike DA2 and Hawke is a reason to criticize my statements about Hawke. Contesting? That's a pretty strong statement to use. I don't share your opinion, that's all. I'm also not comparing Dragon Age II to Inquisition. I have problems with Inquisition as well. 1. Anders have protectors (Varric, for example, and later Hawke) Meredith said in Act3, if Hawke bring Anders to Meredit's quest, that he can only enjoy his freedom, because of his friendship with the Champion...2. Why Hawke would be an atheist? Most of people was religious or believed the Maker/Creator. Fenris and Anders questioned the Andrastianism/Chantry sometimes, but never totally. Merrill believe the Elven Pantheon. Hawke's family was religious. 3. DA2 in many viewpoint better than the Inquisition. And I have problem with DA2 as well.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 21:01:04 GMT
But the issue is Hawke being put in such a reactive position. It's one thing to try and fail, it's another matter altogether to mostly react to things instead of being proactive. Fenris and Merrill, for example, don't get the outcomes they had hoped for, but at least they were proactive about their respective situations and tried to do something about it instead of simply reacting to things that are happening. Let`s judge the Warden`s actions after her/his Joining at Ostagar: (s)he notice Loghain`s reaction, but does nothing to prevent the outcome. A dwarf noble even has a comment about what could happen. So why the Warden doesn`t act to prevent the massacre and Cailan`s death? Because (s)he is not in a position of power. It`s the same with Hawke. (S)he is a private citizen, unable to decide in political or religious matters. The Warden is able to accomplish the job to gather allies ONLY because (s)he is a Grey Warden, and no other reason. For instance, being admitted inside Orzamar while (s)he was a castless criminal. As for Fenris and Merrill: both needs Hawke`s help. Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 21:09:44 GMT
Let`s judge the Warden`s actions after her/his Joining at Ostagar: (s)he notice Loghain`s reaction, but does nothing to prevent the outcome. A dwarf noble even has a comment about what could happen. So why the Warden doesn`t act to prevent the massacre and Cailan`s death? Because (s)he is not in a position of power. It`s the same with Hawke. (S)he is a private citizen, unable to decide in political or religious matters. The Warden is able to accomplish the job to gather allies ONLY because (s)he is a Grey Warden, and no other reason. For instance, being admitted inside Orzamar while (s)he was a castless criminal. As for Fenris and Merrill: both needs Hawke`s help. Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own. How many things did Fenris and Merrill? Fenris searched Varania (with Aveline's help, as we know). Merrill? What did Merrill? And as I said: Hawke probably helped to rebuild the city after the qunari attack. And yes, probably live as a noble lived. He was poverless. Okay, what do you think, what Hawke should do? Attacking Meredith's templars? S/He needed alliance for a noble resistance, and s/he needed to build connects. I think, s/he did. If s/he was templar-hearted, s/he shouldn't do anything, but enjoy his/her fortune...
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 21:11:22 GMT
It's not like Anders can use magic in public without gaining the notice of the templars. He clearly heals a lot of sick people, which is why so many refugees turn to him for help (and why some of them attempt to stop you when they presume you're a threat to him). You can't play Hawke as an atheist. You have no option to say you don't believe in the Maker. There's even the mandatory dialogue with Feynriel about saying that you hope the Maker watches over him. Even the romance scene with Merrill mentions that Leandra is with the Maker, but there's no opposing view available to express. Gaider also explicitly said that it wasn't made available in Dragon Age II, and said an atheist option wouldn't be available in Inquisition until players voiced their opposition to such a move, and he relented afterwards. Contesting? That's a pretty strong statement to use. I don't share your opinion, that's all. I'm also not comparing Dragon Age II to Inquisition. I have problems with Inquisition as well. 1. Anders have protectors (Varric, for example, and later Hawke) Meredith said in Act3, if Hawke bring Anders to Meredit's quest, that he only enjoy his freedom, because of his friendship with the Champion... In Act III, at which point Anders was involved with the mage underground because of what happened to Karl. The point of time in the discussion about Act I. 2. Why Hawke would be an atheist? Most of people was religious or believed the Maker/Creator. Fenris and Anders questioned the Andrastianism/Chantry sometimes, but never totally. Merrill believe the Elven Pantheon. Hawke's family was religious. I hope you're not suggesting atheists aren't able to come from religious families. 3. DA2 in many viewpoint better than the Inquisition. And I have problem with DA2 as well. Okay.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 29, 2017 21:18:35 GMT
Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own. Well, man! If this is your viewpoint, I seriously don`t understand why are you playing DA2, or posting comments about Hawke? I can say a lot about just how worthless, lazy and dangerously stupid the Warden is. For instance, our dearest of the dear Warden cared exactly nothing for the lives of most Fereldens for an entire year, while gathering armies, traveling around and solving countless fetch quests for her/his pocket`s benefit. No intention to use the Blackstone Irregulars or the damn collectives worthless mages to anything useful, as to at least help villagers escape the horde. Or to SEAL THE DAMNED DEEP ROAD ENTRANCES! Something easy to do for a few mages, no? DURING AN ENTIRE YEAR! The already gathered allies were leisurely "training" at Redcliffe Castle instead of acting against the horde, or helping protect the remaining villages/refugee camps. You said Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title. the Warden has all this, and ARMIES, ALLIES, POLITICAL INFLUENCE. Still, (s)he does exactly ZERO against the hode a FULL YEAR. What`s proactive in that? More, the Warden agrees with Morrigan`s Dark Ritual, knowing nothing about it. What if the outcome is an Archdemon impossible to kill by a Grey Warden? What then? Not to mention the Architect, and the option to ally with him. So, why is the Warden any better than Hawke?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2017 21:22:39 GMT
1. Anders have protectors (Varric, for example, and later Hawke) Meredith said in Act3, if Hawke bring Anders to Meredit's quest, that he only enjoy his freedom, because of his friendship with the Champion... In Act III, at which point Anders was involved with the mage underground because of what happened to Karl. The point of time in the discussion about Act I. 2. Why Hawke would be an atheist? Most of people was religious or believed the Maker/Creator. Fenris and Anders questioned the Andrastianism/Chantry sometimes, but never totally. Merrill believe the Elven Pantheon. Hawke's family was religious. I hope you're not suggesting atheists aren't able to come from religious families. 3. DA2 in many viewpoint better than the Inquisition. And I have problem with DA2 as well. Okay. What's your problem with Anders? Not believable? Or lazy? Or? Okay, again. Anders in the whole game have protectors. First, the Ferelden refugees, later Varric and yes, perhaps Aveline (she probably disliked Anders, but appreciated his work in the Clinic), later the Champion of Kirkwall. Maybe not the best explanation, but still exist. About atheism issue: 1. Hawke is able to question the Andrastianism/Chantry 2. What Hawke told to Feynriel was probably a common phrase. 3. There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators? 4. For the story, an Andrastian Hawke's better: much more schocking the explosion of the Chantry. 5. Playing as Andrastian Hawke, and finally willingly help/accept Anders is fantastic!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 23:25:32 GMT
I'm just wondering how much of Hawke's story Hawke told Varric. Some things he was hopefully not there for...
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 29, 2017 23:53:15 GMT
Hawke wasn't reactive, often initiated. S/He tried to be viscount, Meredith prevented. S/He tried to speak with Elthina (or/and Cullen), but it was uneffective. Hawke is reacting to the conflict between Meredith and Orsino, which I wouldn't consider proactive but reactive. Hawke wasn't doing anything about the matter for three entire years. Hawke only aligns with either Meredith or the mages three years after Meredith seizes political power. Even speaking with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter happens after Orsino tries to do something about it. Even the nobles who want to see Meredith ousted initiate plans to deal with her death squad, and simply bring Hawke into it because of his position as Champion. Why would Hawke, a refugee with little standing at first, insert themselves into this conflict? It would have been a dangerous decision considering either Hawke was a mage or had a mage sibling to protect. Assuming you yourself are a private citizen (and not in the military, police force, etc. in your country) what matters have you personally inserted yourself in at great risk to yourself or your family? By being active I mean seeking out jobs, not the amount physical or mental effort. While Anders tends to the sick, he doesn`t patrol the city for patients. He waits for them in his clinic. Hawke is searching for jobs. It's not like Anders can use magic in public without gaining the notice of the templars. He clearly heals a lot of sick people, which is why so many refugees turn to him for help (and why some of them attempt to stop you when they presume you're a threat to him). As for Hawke being Andrastian, there is that dialogue option in Act 1: "It wasn`t the Maker" when responding to Elthina`s claim about the Maker`s intervention to end the Blight. Hawke can be played as a atheist. You can't play Hawke as an atheist. You have no option to say you don't believe in the Maker. There's even the mandatory dialogue with Feynriel about saying that you hope the Maker watches over him. Even the romance scene with Merrill mentions that Leandra is with the Maker, but there's no opposing view available to express. Gaider also explicitly said that it wasn't made available in Dragon Age II, and said an atheist option wouldn't be available in Inquisition until players voiced their opposition to such a move, and he relented afterwards. I have a feeling that you are contesting anything I post because you don`t like DA2. That`s all right, because I don`t like DA:I. Also, I like all Witcher books but not the games. But I don`t understand why the fact that you dislike DA2 and Hawke is a reason to criticize my statements about Hawke. Contesting? That's a pretty strong statement to use. I don't share your opinion, that's all. I'm also not comparing Dragon Age II to Inquisition. I have problems with Inquisition as well. 1. Mage Hawke throws fireballs all over the place even in Act 1. This is just a game mechanic, I'm sure, rather than Hawke actually overtly using magic in public, but it remains the case that Hawke managed to defeat opponents in public -- even in full view of Templars -- using magic subtly enough that they weren't taken to the Gallows. Why could Anders not have done the same? (To be clear, I do not fault Anders in the least for trying to say hidden, but since this is your argument, it should apply fairly to all potential mages in the group.) 2. I think I must have missed a post somewhere, but why does it matter whether Hawke is an atheist or not? I played my first Hawke without mentioning religiosity at all, to my recollection, though my second Hawke was Andrastian. As a real-life atheist, it doesn't bother me in the least that I can't make Hawke an overt atheist, since we have so many other ways to role-play the character. What s/he should do? Just lost his/her mother, and I think, helped in the city rebuild. Qunari war, you remember? Continued to help to his/her friends in their issues, etc. And I think, Varric don't wrote all trivial things, what happened, just some of these. Hawke was one of the nobles. Not a Chosen One. I'm pretty sure 'doing nothing' wasn't the only option Hawke had, and there were a plethora of threads made about Hawke being passive in the wake of Dragon Age II, so this shouldn't be new for anyone. He shows little desire to be active, even though there's dialogue to tell Varric you want power, but apparently does nothing about it. There's also no dialogue that indicates Hawke helped rebuild the city. He had a statute built in his image on the docks, and he was named Champion. He's incredibly passive, and I just didn't care about him. You don't need to like Hawke, but your expectations of them are very unreasonable because you insist on trying to see them as a "chosen one" like the Warden and the Inquisitor are. This is not what Hawke is supposed to be. Even so, Hawke is more active in local politics than the vast majority of ordinary citizens are. As for rebuilding the city, Templar-aligned Viscount Hawke would obviously do some rebuilding in their role as Viscount, before being chased out of the city. Mage-aligned Hawke is immediately run out of the city as soon as they defeat Meredith. How can you rebuild a city that you were forced to flee from? Let`s judge the Warden`s actions after her/his Joining at Ostagar: (s)he notice Loghain`s reaction, but does nothing to prevent the outcome. A dwarf noble even has a comment about what could happen. So why the Warden doesn`t act to prevent the massacre and Cailan`s death? Because (s)he is not in a position of power. It`s the same with Hawke. (S)he is a private citizen, unable to decide in political or religious matters. The Warden is able to accomplish the job to gather allies ONLY because (s)he is a Grey Warden, and no other reason. For instance, being admitted inside Orzamar while (s)he was a castless criminal. As for Fenris and Merrill: both needs Hawke`s help. Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own.Fenris would have ended up as Danarius's slave once again without Hawke there to help him fight, and Merrill would not have gotten the Arulin'Holm without Hawke's help since Marethari refused to had it over.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 0:09:34 GMT
I'm just wondering how much of Hawke's story Hawke told Varric. Some things he was hopefully not there for... I think, as a good journalist/writer, he told the truth, but the story was a bit more interesting, Hawke and his/her group was a bit stronger, more fun, the conflicts was more intense etc. The enemies were bigger, and Hawke was more heroic. All what is need for a good story...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2017 0:10:57 GMT
I'm just wondering how much of Hawke's story Hawke told Varric. Some things he was hopefully not there for... I think, as a good journalist/writer, he told the truth, but the story was a bit more interesting, Hawke and his/her group was a bit stronger, more fun, the conflicts was more intense etc. The enemies were bigger, and Hawke was more heroic. All what is need for a good story... Oh so he's to blame for why we constantly get skewered by a large Qunari and survive
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 0:40:40 GMT
I think, as a good journalist/writer, he told the truth, but the story was a bit more interesting, Hawke and his/her group was a bit stronger, more fun, the conflicts was more intense etc. The enemies were bigger, and Hawke was more heroic. All what is need for a good story... Oh so he's to blame for why we constantly get skewered by a large Qunari and survive Indeed! (Okay, I cant resist):
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 0:42:36 GMT
Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own. Well, man! If this is your viewpoint, I seriously don`t understand why are you playing DA2, or posting comments about Hawke? Because the OP has nothing to do with liking Hawke or finding the story of Dragon Age II favorable; it has to do with whether or not it's truly Hawke's story. I can say a lot about just how worthless, lazy and dangerously stupid the Warden is. For instance, our dearest of the dear Warden cared exactly nothing for the lives of most Fereldens for an entire year, while gathering armies, traveling around and solving countless fetch quests for her/his pocket`s benefit. No intention to use the Blackstone Irregulars or the damn collectives worthless mages to anything useful, as to at least help villagers escape the horde. Or to SEAL THE DAMNED DEEP ROAD ENTRANCES! Something easy to do for a few mages, no? DURING AN ENTIRE YEAR! There is a slight difference between being proactive by using the treaties to deal with the threat of the Fifth Blight, and pretty much doing nothing for a couple of years. The already gathered allies were leisurely "training" at Redcliffe Castle instead of acting against the horde, or helping protect the remaining villages/refugee camps. I'm not sure how Hawke doing nothing for a few years is comparable to the Warden utilizing the treaties, but you're welcome to explain your position. You said Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title. the Warden has all this, and ARMIES, ALLIES, POLITICAL INFLUENCE. Still, (s)he does exactly ZERO against the hode a FULL YEAR. What`s proactive in that? During the crisis of the Fifth Blight, my Surana Warden didn't have a title, he wasn't a noble, but he did use the treaties to acquire the support of a myriad of armies and he utilized the armies against the Fifth Blight. Hawke, conversely, didn't seem to be doing anything during the three years when Meredith illegally seized political power in Kirkwall and became a dictator with a death squad who killed civilians. More, the Warden agrees with Morrigan`s Dark Ritual, knowing nothing about it. What if the outcome is an Archdemon impossible to kill by a Grey Warden? What then? Not to mention the Architect, and the option to ally with him. My Surana Warden took a leap of faith with Morrigan, and he killed the Architect. Hawke... let Corypheus loose. So I guess that was technically something. So, why is the Warden any better than Hawke? Are you asking as in why I, personally, prefer the Warden to Hawke?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2017 0:43:41 GMT
Oh so he's to blame for why we constantly get skewered by a large Qunari and survive Indeed! (Okay, I cant resist): OMG that Benny Hill music is classic for a scene like that and this is exactly how my first time fighting him went!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 0:54:25 GMT
In Act III, at which point Anders was involved with the mage underground because of what happened to Karl. The point of time in the discussion about Act I. I hope you're not suggesting atheists aren't able to come from religious families. Okay. What's your problem with Anders? Not believable? Or lazy? Or? If I bring up Anders using his healing abilities to help refugees and impoverished folks in Darktown, why do you assume I have a problem with him? About atheism issue: 1. Hawke is able to question the Andrastianism/Chantry 2. What Hawke told to Feynriel was probably a common phrase. 3. There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators? 4. For the story, an Andrastian Hawke's better: much more schocking the explosion of the Chantry. 5. Playing as Andrastian Hawke, and finally willingly help/accept Anders is fantastic! If Gaider already said there isn't an atheist option in Dragon Age II, I don't see why this is even being debated. It's not like it's difficult to find the threads where Xil and I were among the folks who criticized the decision to prohibit the return of an atheist option when Gaider originally said he wasn't going to allow it, and then relented because a sufficient amount of us made our voices heard. Also, criticizing the Chantry isn't the same as being atheist. As for playing a religious Andrastian, some of us simply don't want to do that. I'm one of them.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 1:03:13 GMT
You said Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title. the Warden has all this, and ARMIES, ALLIES, POLITICAL INFLUENCE. Still, (s)he does exactly ZERO against the hode a FULL YEAR. What`s proactive in that? During the crisis of the Fifth Blight, my Surana Warden didn't have a title, he wasn't a noble, but he did use the treaties to acquire the support of a myriad of armies and he utilized the armies against the Fifth Blight. Hawke, conversely, didn't seem to be doing anything during the three years when Meredith illegally seized political power in Kirkwall and became a dictator with a death squad who killed civilians. During a Blight, a warden have power. This the treaties were his/her power. Where's Hawke's treaty, that s/he entitled to the Viscount's throne? He got helps from the nobles after third year... I think this is a quite believable. Why? Because people needed time, to realize Meredith's danger. The nobles and citizens were not afraid of Templars, they are accustomed them. They needed a little time to realize: the Templars (Meredith) greater threat than the Mages. This is clear. (I know, the DA2 not a perfect story, but you think, the Warden's story more believable? Honestly... I think, that explainable with the contracts, but still...)
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 1:13:04 GMT
Hawke is reacting to the conflict between Meredith and Orsino, which I wouldn't consider proactive but reactive. Hawke wasn't doing anything about the matter for three entire years. Hawke only aligns with either Meredith or the mages three years after Meredith seizes political power. Even speaking with Grand Cleric Elthina about the matter happens after Orsino tries to do something about it. Even the nobles who want to see Meredith ousted initiate plans to deal with her death squad, and simply bring Hawke into it because of his position as Champion. Why would Hawke, a refugee with little standing at first, insert themselves into this conflict? It would have been a dangerous decision considering either Hawke was a mage or had a mage sibling to protect. Assuming you yourself are a private citizen (and not in the military, police force, etc. in your country) what matters have you personally inserted yourself in at great risk to yourself or your family? You mean, between Acts II and III specifically? There are a myriad of reasons why a pro-mage Hawke would have, hypothetically, wanted to do something about Meredith becoming a despot, especially in the wake of being proclaimed a hero who saved the city from a Qunari invasion. That Hawke does nothing is something that sours me on the character. Admittedly, tastes may differ, but being that reactive was a problem for me. It's the same criticism I explained to Allan Schumacher when he asked players to share their issues with Dragon Age II. It's not like Anders can use magic in public without gaining the notice of the templars. He clearly heals a lot of sick people, which is why so many refugees turn to him for help (and why some of them attempt to stop you when they presume you're a threat to him). You can't play Hawke as an atheist. You have no option to say you don't believe in the Maker. There's even the mandatory dialogue with Feynriel about saying that you hope the Maker watches over him. Even the romance scene with Merrill mentions that Leandra is with the Maker, but there's no opposing view available to express. Gaider also explicitly said that it wasn't made available in Dragon Age II, and said an atheist option wouldn't be available in Inquisition until players voiced their opposition to such a move, and he relented afterwards. Contesting? That's a pretty strong statement to use. I don't share your opinion, that's all. I'm also not comparing Dragon Age II to Inquisition. I have problems with Inquisition as well. 1. Mage Hawke throws fireballs all over the place even in Act 1. This is just a game mechanic, I'm sure, rather than Hawke actually overtly using magic in public, but it remains the case that Hawke managed to defeat opponents in public -- even in full view of Templars -- using magic subtly enough that they weren't taken to the Gallows. Why could Anders not have done the same? (To be clear, I do not fault Anders in the least for trying to say hidden, but since this is your argument, it should apply fairly to all potential mages in the group.) I developers have acknowledged the ludonarrative dissonance in the game, even citing Cullen not knowing that apostate Hawke is a mage as a prime example. There's been a vague reference to a 'Fade' mission that was allegedly supposed to address apostate Hawke being an illegal mage in Kirkwall, but the developers never actually explained it in any meaningful detail. 2. I think I must have missed a post somewhere, but why does it matter whether Hawke is an atheist or not? I played my first Hawke without mentioning religiosity at all, to my recollection, though my second Hawke was Andrastian. As a real-life atheist, it doesn't bother me in the least that I can't make Hawke an overt atheist, since we have so many other ways to role-play the character. Comparatively, it gives the player less control over Hawke than it does the Warden, who could be played as an atheist or a non-Andrastian. I'm pretty sure 'doing nothing' wasn't the only option Hawke had, and there were a plethora of threads made about Hawke being passive in the wake of Dragon Age II, so this shouldn't be new for anyone. He shows little desire to be active, even though there's dialogue to tell Varric you want power, but apparently does nothing about it. There's also no dialogue that indicates Hawke helped rebuild the city. He had a statute built in his image on the docks, and he was named Champion. He's incredibly passive, and I just didn't care about him. You don't need to like Hawke, but your expectations of them are very unreasonable because you insist on trying to see them as a "chosen one" like the Warden and the Inquisitor are. This is not what Hawke is supposed to be. Even so, Hawke is more active in local politics than the vast majority of ordinary citizens are. It doesn't take a 'chosen one' to be proactive. I even brought up examples of companions who were proactive earlier in the thread. As for rebuilding the city, Templar-aligned Viscount Hawke would obviously do some rebuilding in their role as Viscount, before being chased out of the city. Mage-aligned Hawke is immediately run out of the city as soon as they defeat Meredith. How can you rebuild a city that you were forced to flee from? I addressed that there is no reference to Hawke helping rebuild the city after the Qunari attack by the Arishok, which takes place years before Hawke can chose to side with either the mages or the templars. Hawke has money, power, the status of nobility, and a title; Hawke is not powerless, yet Hawke is reactive. Also, Fenris and Merrill are doing plenty, and having Hawke around as muscle doesn't really change that the two of them are proactive on their own.Fenris would have ended up as Danarius's slave once again without Hawke there to help him fight, and Merrill would not have gotten the Arulin'Holm without Hawke's help since Marethari refused to had it over. That doesn't change my statement that Hawke is reactive.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 1:25:19 GMT
What's your problem with Anders? Not believable? Or lazy? Or? If I bring up Anders using his healing abilities to help refugees and impoverished folks in Darktown, why do you assume I have a problem with him? About atheism issue: 1. Hawke is able to question the Andrastianism/Chantry 2. What Hawke told to Feynriel was probably a common phrase. 3. There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators? 4. For the story, an Andrastian Hawke's better: much more schocking the explosion of the Chantry. 5. Playing as Andrastian Hawke, and finally willingly help/accept Anders is fantastic! If Gaider already said there isn't an atheist option in Dragon Age II, I don't see why this is even being debated. It's not like it's difficult to find the threads where Xil and I were among the folks who criticized the decision to prohibit the return of an atheist option when Gaider originally said he wasn't going to allow it, and then relented because a sufficient amount of us made our voices heard. Also, criticizing the Chantry isn't the same as being atheist. As for playing a religious Andrastian, some of us simply don't want to do that. I'm one of them. 1. Ferelden refugees (Act1), you remember? And Varric/(perhaps)Aveline in Act2, Hawke in Act3. (I wrote...) And yes: Anders risked his life there. 2. I not surprised, that Gaider said. a) There isn't atheist option. It would be not so logical in such a world... At least have only a small probability – as I see: There are exist any scientifical explanation to formation of Thedas, instead of Maker/Creators?
So: the ateism, according our wording, I think not exist in Thedas. Greater the likelihood that everyone/most of theodosians believes in some sort of metaphysical creative power. I'm sure that there are skeptics, but not in the modern (IRL) sense atheists. (Of course, perhaps, I'm wrong) For the story, an Andrastian Hawke's better: much more schocking the explosion of the Chantry.
As dragontartare wrote: Hawke don't need to deal with the religion. And you think, that matter, if your Hawke is atheist? What happen, if Hawke tell to Elthina, that she can go to the Void with her religion. Nothing. This isn't a religious war... What about I would like to play as dwarf? I cant play in DA2 as elf/dwarf/qunari... Someone don't like as play as human... What a shit game! You can hate/dislike DA2, but I think, these bounds are not bad in this game. But this is my opinion.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 30, 2017 1:30:45 GMT
During the crisis of the Fifth Blight, my Surana Warden didn't have a title, he wasn't a noble, but he did use the treaties to acquire the support of a myriad of armies and he utilized the armies against the Fifth Blight. Hawke, conversely, didn't seem to be doing anything during the three years when Meredith illegally seized political power in Kirkwall and became a dictator with a death squad who killed civilians. During a Blight, a warden have power. This the treaties were his/her power. Where's Hawke's treaty, that s/he entitled to the Viscount's throne? He got helps from the nobles after third year... I think this is a quite believable. Why? Because people needed time, to realize Meredith's danger. The nobles and citizens were not afraid of Templars, they are accustomed them. They needed a little time to realize: the Templars (Meredith) greater threat than the Mages. This is clear. (I know, the DA2 not a perfect story, but you think, the Warden's story more believable? Honestly... I think, that explainable with the contracts, but still...) This isn't about believability; I'm addressing the distinction between a proactive protagonist and a reactive protagonist. And, for example, if Hawke was trying to do something about Meredith's dictatorship during the three year period between Acts II and III, as opposed to nothing, I'd feel very differently. Instead, Hawke only gets involved because Orsino is protesting Meredith's actions and the Knight-Commander challenges the First Enchanter in front of the people of Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 2:17:28 GMT
During a Blight, a warden have power. This the treaties were his/her power. Where's Hawke's treaty, that s/he entitled to the Viscount's throne? He got helps from the nobles after third year... I think this is a quite believable. Why? Because people needed time, to realize Meredith's danger. The nobles and citizens were not afraid of Templars, they are accustomed them. They needed a little time to realize: the Templars (Meredith) greater threat than the Mages. This is clear. (I know, the DA2 not a perfect story, but you think, the Warden's story more believable? Honestly... I think, that explainable with the contracts, but still...) This isn't about believability; I'm addressing the distinction between a proactive protagonist and a reactive protagonist. And, for example, if Hawke was trying to do something about Meredith's dictatorship during the three year period between Acts II and III, as opposed to nothing, I'd feel very differently. Instead, Hawke only gets involved because Orsino is protesting Meredith's actions and the Knight-Commander challenges the First Enchanter in front of the people of Kirkwall. Hawke's story not an open world RPG, rather an interactive drama with some decisions. If you do not like it, you do not have to play with it, because, as I see (I'm not sure about it) these bounds belongs to the genre. Hawke is an antihero.
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