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Post by t4rget on Jun 10, 2021 9:41:12 GMT
Development of ME3 was a rushed nightmare. You can see where they cut corners with the animation all over the place. Just let me put that gun away when I want also ME2 was very quick job, I dont remember if rushed or not. In ME2 the gun pops up almost every time after cut scene or such, I dont want to point that gun all the time... On the Indoctrination? Dont care, ME3 is done, Shepard is dead, they wont be continuing that, I'm pretty sure about it Yes, Shepard is dead. And he/she's dead for us, to give us a future in front of the Gods of the Infinite Loop. He/she's our lord and savior. All pray in his/her name, our father/mother of battle, who keeps our shields ready, our omniblades keen and our armor customizable.
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Post by Guardian on Jun 10, 2021 12:54:31 GMT
I remember that data; I remember Destroy being like insanely high in percentage, followed by Synthesis, then I absolutely remember Control being only 8%. I remember this because I was shocked at how low it was. It was Paragon Soldier Sheploo that the majority of players went with. I forget the percentages on that, but I remember it was also high as well. From memory I think it was Destroy > Control > Synthesis > Refuse (although I may have got the last two the wrong way around). Destroy was ridiculously high (something like 85%?) to the point that it would have been hard to believe that it would have contradicted the wider player-base. One of the reasons BW got really p*say over the endings I think was that there was a flat out rejection of their pet choice, synthesis.
I wish I could remember what Refuse was; but yeah, Destroy was most popular by a huge margin. I remember it being insanely high, with the next one being nowhere near that (I want to say it was like 12% for Synthesis? For some reason I could swear it was 15%) but I do remember the difference in choice was vast. Because after I and another friend of mine beat ME 3, we talked about the ending and he brought up the data EA/Bio put out about the game.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 10, 2021 12:56:36 GMT
From memory I think it was Destroy > Control > Synthesis > Refuse (although I may have got the last two the wrong way around). Destroy was ridiculously high (something like 85%?) to the point that it would have been hard to believe that it would have contradicted the wider player-base. One of the reasons BW got really p*say over the endings I think was that there was a flat out rejection of their pet choice, synthesis.
I wish I could remember what Refuse was; but yeah, Destroy was most popular by a huge margin. I remember it being insanely high, with the next one being nowhere near that (I want to say it was like 12% for Synthesis? For some reason I could swear it was 15%) but I do remember the difference in choice was vast. Because after I and another friend of mine beat ME 3, we talked about the ending and he brought up the data EA/Bio put out about the game.
How many voted in that poll?
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Post by lavigne on Jun 10, 2021 14:43:08 GMT
How many voted in that poll? It was in the tens of thousands. There was one poll on BSN in the immediate aftermath that went over 30k, and there was a wider one (I don’t think this was on BSN directly) that ran after the EC. From memory I’m sure the later poll was larger but I can’t remember where that one ended up. Did find a Reddit one from 5 years ago though. About 5k respondents. Synthesis did much better (34%), but Destroy (49%) still got more than all the other official endings combined (mods made up the difference).
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 10, 2021 14:47:11 GMT
How many voted in that poll? It was in the tens of thousands. There was one poll on BSN in the immediate aftermath that went over 30k, and there was a wider one (I don’t think this was on BSN directly) that ran after the EC. From memory I’m sure the later poll was larger but I can’t remember where that one ended up. Did find a Reddit one from 5 years ago though. About 5k respondents. Synthesis did much better (34%), but Destroy (49%) still got more than all the other official endings combined (mods made up the difference). Now that is interesting....
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t4rget
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Post by t4rget on Jun 10, 2021 15:47:20 GMT
How many voted in that poll? It was in the tens of thousands. There was one poll on BSN in the immediate aftermath that went over 30k, and there was a wider one (I don’t think this was on BSN directly) that ran after the EC. From memory I’m sure the later poll was larger but I can’t remember where that one ended up. Did find a Reddit one from 5 years ago though. About 5k respondents. Synthesis did much better (34%), but Destroy (49%) still got more than all the other official endings combined (mods made up the difference). I found the reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/3bv39h/spoilers_poll_results_mass_effect_decision_survey/data is sometimes weird. I don't know if it is reliable.
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Post by telanadas on Jun 10, 2021 16:27:11 GMT
Alas, it was not supposed to be. By the time we got more and more info about what the EC was gonna be, it became very clear the BW never considered anything like IT (at least nor beyond some very early conceptual stages). So as far as I was concerned, that was the end of it. Now I just remember it fondly as a cool fan theory from back in the day, nothing more. And that's fine with me, too. I totally agree, I really can't believe they didn't didn't plan the indoctrination theory at all, because it just works with how everything played out. I would have absolutely loved it if it was intentional, because it would have been genius storytelling from a game and narrative perspective. Maybe the signs were all subconscious??? ... I mean there's just so much evidence to back it up that even if they didn't plan it, the theory still holds water because the ending is technically open-ended. Which personally, I like.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 18:35:04 GMT
1. TIL that Shep got a "get well" on the god-damned iPhone app. I have been an Android user since iPhone4 died on me, and I never knew this. Kinda neat, kinda infuriating.
2. I am ready for a new PC. Only return to Ryder and Co if they have aged 10 years and most of their squadmates have been KIA.
3. IT was a brilliant exercise in head-canon. Someone really worked hard within the confines of the existing (trash) story and tried to make lemonade.
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Post by winterking on Jun 11, 2021 10:36:29 GMT
3. IT was a brilliant exercise in head-canon. Someone really worked hard within the confines of the existing (trash) story and tried to make lemonade. It really was. It was picking apart everything that made players go "this doesn't make any sense" during ME3 and make it deliberate and smart. Yeah the writers of ME aren't that clever.
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Post by DeckSavage on Jun 11, 2021 12:25:11 GMT
3. IT was a brilliant exercise in head-canon. Someone really worked hard within the confines of the existing (trash) story and tried to make lemonade. It really was. It was picking apart everything that made players go "this doesn't make any sense" during ME3 and make it deliberate and smart. Yeah the writers of ME aren't that clever. I agree that the "Indoctrination Theory" is very appealing on the surface, it gives you a pause when you first hear about it. But when you think about it more, you realize it doesn't hold up. It's more like the writers didn't go that route. If they did, they would probably have given us a lot of hints about Shepard being indoctrinated in ME1 and ME2. Thing is: most of the arguments about Indoctrination are mostly based on ME3 only. Also I feel Javik would have noticed if Shepard had really been indoctrinated. and he would have probably tried to slit Shep throat, like he did with his indoctrinated crew 50.000 years before. ^^
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Post by winterking on Jun 11, 2021 12:38:36 GMT
It really was. It was picking apart everything that made players go "this doesn't make any sense" during ME3 and make it deliberate and smart. Yeah the writers of ME aren't that clever. I agree that the "Indoctrination Theory" is very appealing on the surface, it gives you a pause when you first hear about it. But when you think about more, you realize it doesn't hold up. It's more like the writers didn't go that route. If they did, they would probably have given us a lot of hints about Shepard being indoctrinated in ME1 and ME2. Thing is: most of the arguments about Indoctrination are mostly based on ME3 only. Also I feel Javik would have noticed if Shepard had really been indoctrinated. and he would have probably tried to slit Shep throat, like he did with his indoctrinated crew 50.000 years before. ^^ Well my understanding of the IT is that Shepard gets indoctrinated over the course of trilogy due to exposure reaper artifacts and technology. And it's really in ME2 that Shepard spends some time near potential indoctrination sources: object Rho and the derelict Reaper so it kind makes sense that we only see indoctrination effects in ME3. I remember that one of the arguments of the IT is that kid we see in the beginning of ME3 is not real and that's already a symptom of indoctrination. One of the best arguments against the IT is that Vendetta detects indoctrination in Kai Lang but doesn't detect it in Shepard.
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Post by 14thcommander on Jun 11, 2021 14:15:08 GMT
Technically IT could be a possible explanation for Synthesis and Control, but definitely not for Destroy, and it definitely wouldn't make sense to explain literally all of Shepard's actions throughout the entire trilogy. It doesn't even work with the 'choose what happens' way the game is structured. I has nothing to do with the writers, it's just not how the game was made. Whoever came up with the theory was looking for an explanation but it just doesn't hold up.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 11, 2021 23:21:00 GMT
The whole problem with the IT is that doesn't have a resolution. So what happens after Shepard chooses between the RGB choices? I mean does s/he just wake up injured in London near the beam and then what? Do the whole thing in the Citadel all over but for "real" this time maybe this time we fight the Illusive Man? It's a great idea for a twist but no one who supports this theory doesn't seem to know how to pay off that isn't just repeat of the previous event before Shepard wakes up.
That is why I support BioWare doing MEA2 over another game set in MWG besides MEA > ME1 in every way.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 12, 2021 1:17:14 GMT
An article from BioWare writer Chris Helper, www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/02/12/bioware-confirms-once-and-for-all-mass-effect-3s-indoctrination-theory-wasnt-true/?sh=12648f772df9 . Apparently, the writers were "never that smart" to think of something like that. Then why does the kid in the vent disappear with no footsteps? And what's with the eerie camera angle zooming back through the vent? Why does no one else acknowledge his existence? Why the dream sequences? How does the Catalyst know to even take that form without knowing what's inside your head? And why, in the final hours interview, was this response given when asked about the ending... On Deciding the End of the Game
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices). Lastly, how do we all feel about this? Personally I was hoping this would be the main plotline to start off Mass Effect 5, but now I guess I just gotta hope for a high EMS destroy ending (that didn't kill the Geth!). PS - Sorry as I'm sure this has probably been posted before as it was from an interview back in Feb 21. However I couldn't find anything here. Chris Hepler already answered the questions to all this: The writers were never that smart.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 12, 2021 1:20:05 GMT
Oh yeah it's definitely farfetched but I guess since they didn't fill the gaps we have to assume someone saves Shep or else what would be the point of that scene? Well if you played the mini-game on your iPhone every day and you got the breath scene, you received an e-mail from your love interest that they were waiting to visit you in the hospital. The android version of the app had bugs and didn't work properly. The email was just from Ashley/Kaidan and it refers to THEM being in the hospital, unfortunately.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 12, 2021 1:31:18 GMT
3. IT was a brilliant exercise in head-canon. Someone really worked hard within the confines of the existing (trash) story and tried to make lemonade. It's more than that. It's an example of an ending so unbelievably BAD that fans turned over every stone, dissected every aspect of the game in order to try and make that ending (and every permutation of it) simply NOT BE. I admire the tenacity and creativity of those fans, even if I can't share in the belief.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 13, 2021 3:11:51 GMT
The ending of ME3 just really messed everything up in the Milky Way and I'm not going to fix it for Bioware. They knew what they needed to do to fix it back in March 2012 and wouldn't even consider it. They doubled down on the ending with the EC. Like seriously. What was your mission as Shepard.
Shepard: "The Illusive Man thinks we can win this by controlling the reapers." Hackett: "He's wrong. Dead reapers is how we win this."
See? That's your mission right there. Dead reapers. Not controlling them. Not rewriting all DNA in the galaxy. Dead reapers.
You know sometimes a story needs to have a simple ending that's the equivalent of driving a nail into a board with a hammer, and this was one of those stories. You can have that beam run like it was in the Original Ending. It worked. If you don't want to have a boss fight with indoctrinated Illusive Man because it was "too videogamey", fine. Have Shepard defeat him in a battle of words, but be quick on the trigger at the end of the conversation... or if you've played your cards right... talk him into committing suicide if that's your tumbler of bourbon. Then enter the codes to open the Citadel, sit down next to Anderson, have the Crucible dock, go to the ending cutscene and tell the reapers to fuck off and die. There's your ending to ME3.
They put the stupid EMS system in the game to make your choices in the other games matter when they knew the couldn't because there were too many of them. So what can we use the EMS system for? What kind of condition the galaxy is in post ending in the epilogue, whether Shepard survives, whether the Geth (if you let them live) survive, what condition the mass relays are in, blah blah blah blah blah.
... waiting for "that's horrible." Compared to what? You get what you pay for, and this was free. We wrote about ending with "Best seats in the House" back in the BSN days. Bioware should have taken us up on it, but there were way too many flame wars on the boards. Synthesis is better. No Control is better. No Refuse is better. Bah!
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jun 14, 2021 23:16:09 GMT
One thing I really like about Indoctrination Theory (and I had my share of tiffs over it with the proponents) is that it was a fascinating conspiracy theory in a snowglobe.
Of course, a bunch of reasonably smart people never fell for anything because they saw a pattern or wanted to believe something was true so made the data fit their favored conclusions ever again.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 15, 2021 18:09:04 GMT
Jesus christ people really love to bang on the old "HACKETT SAID DEAD REAPERS" drum.
Why should anyone give a single fuck what Hackett thinks about anything? Is he the computer-god in charge of the giant robot squid army, who knows all the secrets of how it operates? No. He's literally just one character with an opinion and no knowledge or facts to back it up. And not even a major character. Second-string at best.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 15, 2021 19:46:59 GMT
Because 1) despite being a Spectre, the default canon Shepard is an Alliance soldier, a Marine. Once a Marine always a Marine. As a Marine, you would have respect for your superior officers or even former superior officers - Anderson and Hackett. That's why. That's why you report your progress to them periodically during ME3. You're friends with Anderson whether you want to be or now. You report to Hackett whether you want to or not. The game even forces you to do that. You have a job to do. 2) Anyone who thinks the reapers have any redeemable qualities needs to have their moral compass checked IMO. They committed complete genocide of the galaxy every 50,000 years for over a billion years.
We were looking for all sorts of things. Like how did the kid get up on the roof to play with that toy space ship? There were no doors up to that roof. And the same kid showed up in the vent several buildings over which would have entailed him climbing down the building over and up another building and hiding in the vent. Then he disappeared and reappeared at the evac scene where no one but Shepard saw him.
Shepard was exposed to that Reaper Artifact in the Arrival DLC yet was not indoctrinated. So were his hallucinations after watching the kid on the roof the result of being hit on the head by the flying desk and he just imagined seeing the kid in the vent and the kid in the shuttle? And thus dreamed about the kid? That's the only thing I can think of. But then Bioware wasn't even clever enough to think of that idea.
So if it isn't indoctrination, it's just shit writing.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 15, 2021 21:26:44 GMT
Shepard was exposed to that Reaper Artifact in the Arrival DLC yet was not indoctrinated. So were his hallucinations after watching the kid on the roof the result of being hit on the head by the flying desk and he just imagined seeing the kid in the vent and the kid in the shuttle? And thus dreamed about the kid? That's the only thing I can think of. But then Bioware wasn't even clever enough to think of that idea. So if it isn't indoctrination, it's just shit writing. Not just that, Shepard was INSIDE a Reaper in ME2! Not to mention around lots of Collector tech (which is basically Reaper tech) Plus Shep was around lots and lots of Sovereign bits at the end of ME1...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 16, 2021 2:40:10 GMT
Lol, I just knew the answer was gonna be "military fetishism".
Yeah, ME3 has some shit writing. The people in charge *openly admitted* they got all the way to the third and final instalment of their grand trilogy without any idea what the Reapers' motivation for their actions actually *was*, so why the hell would anyone twist their own brain in knots to try and make ME3 secretly brilliant? Unless they emotionally invested in ME so much that they traumatised themselves.
Indoctrination Theory is just pareidolia and paranoia.
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Post by General Mahad on Jun 16, 2021 3:26:15 GMT
I refuse to believe Shepard was at any point indoctrinated. It simply makes no sense. Harbinger, a Reaper with a seemingly personal obsession with Shepard, would simply force him to the Reapers side. It would have made sense due to the weird-ass, oily shadow dreams and Shep being in close proximity to Object Rho for two days.
But it was never capitalized on and as such, the indoctrination theory was dead and buried.
Shame, it was fun while it lasted.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 16, 2021 3:50:51 GMT
Shepard was exposed to that Reaper Artifact in the Arrival DLC yet was not indoctrinated. So were his hallucinations after watching the kid on the roof the result of being hit on the head by the flying desk and he just imagined seeing the kid in the vent and the kid in the shuttle? And thus dreamed about the kid? That's the only thing I can think of. But then Bioware wasn't even clever enough to think of that idea. So if it isn't indoctrination, it's just shit writing. Not just that, Shepard was INSIDE a Reaper in ME2! Not to mention around lots of Collector tech (which is basically Reaper tech) Plus Shep was around lots and lots of Sovereign bits at the end of ME1... So was Garrus. The only difference with him is he wasn't in the Arrival dlc. If Shepard is to be indoctrinated, then Garrus could/would be as well.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,888 Likes: 49,359
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,359
Iakus
20,888
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 16, 2021 4:35:07 GMT
Not just that, Shepard was INSIDE a Reaper in ME2! Not to mention around lots of Collector tech (which is basically Reaper tech) Plus Shep was around lots and lots of Sovereign bits at the end of ME1... So was Garrus. The only difference with him is he wasn't in the Arrival dlc. If Shepard is to be indoctrinated, then Garrus could/would be as well.
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