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Post by Catilina on Jul 11, 2018 14:44:34 GMT
I don't know if this fits here or not but I recently took Vivienne with me to Crestwood. When we go into the tunnels under the lake we encounter multiple spirits. They aren't dangerous and we can walk through them. Vivienne says nothing about them. Considering all the shit she gives Cole you'd think she would try to banish or destroy them. Then there's a Command spirit. Again, Vivienne says nothing, except a minor comment when you report back that the rage demon is dead. Does Vivienne really dislike spirits or only when it's convenient to assert her power (like with Cole)? Vivienne has a very strong opinion on how things are supposed to be, especially when it comes to magic. She may dislike spirits in general, but can tolerate their existence as long as they continue to act as they are supposed to (i.e. in accordance with the centuries of observation and study by the Circle).
Cole very existence contradicts a millennia of the Circle teaching's about the nature of Spirits and thus stands as a direct affront to Vivienne's worldview. He challenges everything she thought she knew about the world, which is why she reacts with such hostility towards him. It's a very good point! Vivienne can't bear if something or someone questioned her views.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 11, 2018 15:06:16 GMT
It's a very good point! Vivienne can't bear if something or someone questioned her views. She's oddly similar to the Spirit of Command in a way.
Both desire to control and shape their own world and destiny, dislike having their authority challenged, as well as when things fail to fit into their preconceived notions about how the world is supposed to be.
Vivienne reacts negatively to Cole challenging her belief in certain immutable "laws" governing Spirits, whereas Command reacts negatively to Thedas challenging it's belief that all reality should be as mutable as the Fade is.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 11, 2018 22:21:46 GMT
Cole very existence contradicts a millennia of the Circle teaching's about the nature of Spirits and thus stands as a direct affront to Vivienne's worldview. He challenges everything she thought she knew about the world, which is why she reacts with such hostility towards him. Not just Cole. Solas knows more about spirits than the the Circle, the Chantry, the Templars and everyone in Tevinter. Even setting aside no one knowing who he really is, that fact that he's spent so much time in the Fade and failed to be possessed should be confirmation that he's actually correct.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 11, 2018 22:25:21 GMT
Both desire to control and shape their own world and destiny, dislike having their authority challenged, as well as when things fail to fit into their preconceived notions about how the world is supposed to be. DA4 should have us learn that Vivienne is possessed by a Command spirit (it's a spirit since it is not aggressive toward others, nor has it attempted to possess anyone - it's main interest was in killing a demon). Or, let's say, it comes out that she is merged with a Command spirit in the way that Anders was with Justice. Anyway, I should stop the line of discussion. It's a pro-Vivienne thread and I would hate if people came into Kaidan Alenko's thread to bitch about him.
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Post by kira on Jul 19, 2018 0:27:26 GMT
I admire Vivienne. If I wasn't the leader of the Inquisition, I would wish for her to do it. I might not agree with her all the time on everything, but I appreciate the fact that she has convictions about how things she should be, and she has the political skill and the talent to influence things. She is narrow minded, yes, but she is not stupid nor cruel about it.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 21, 2018 1:19:37 GMT
I'm working on a profile of Vivienne and as much of it is about her opinion of the Circle, I thought I'd lay out a general defense of Loyalism first. The Loyalist fraternity is not small and their position is reasonable. Our understanding of it comes only from mages that don't adhere to it or whom are hostile to it until Vivienne- and still it gets little respect from the fandom at large. I want to articulate some of its underlying principles as I see it instead. I modified an actual list of conservative values in making this list if similarities are noticed. Because why do extra leg work?
1. The fundamental assumptions of the Chantry are valid. Magic is a gift- but a terrible one. Magic is dangerous. Magic is a corrupting influence left unchecked. Magic is meant to serve man. Never is it meant to rule over him. Blood magic is morally wrong. Spirits and demons are dangerous. The hubris of mages caused the darkspawn and blights- in addition to their worship of idols and use of blood magic. 2. Non-mages have the right to be free from the influence and dangers of magic. 3. Mages require training so that they’re able to control themselves, perform socially useful magic and contribute to the study of such magic. 4. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted. Mages that ascend to the top of one within the Circle or outside it are rightfully privileged. 5. Public oversight of magic and mages is necessary- and so trained non-mage public safety personnel is necessary. 6. Borders between mage and non-mage populations are reasonable. Likewise, limits on mage freedom of movement are reasonable. 7. Peaceful social being between mages and non-mages is preferable to isolation and to war. In consequence, it justly and rightly demands some sacrifice of individual impulse and idiosyncrasy. 8. Magic that involves blood sacrifice or mind control (blood magic) is a crime against nature. 9. It is better to teach mages about responsibilities than about rights. 10. It is better to do what everyone has always done, unless you have some extraordinarily valid reason to do otherwise. 11. Radical change should be viewed with suspicion, particularly in a time of radical change. 12. We should judge the Circle in comparison to other systems of magic training and control- and not to hypothetical utopias. 13. The Circle of Magi is autonomous and should remain free from Chantry and Templar interference. The College of Enchanters likewise should leave individual circles to their own devices as much as possible. 14. Mages can go too far in fights for freedom. Terrorism. Killing non-combatants. The destruction of circles. The endangerment or killing of apprentices and mages unwilling to fight. Instigating fighting between mages and templars and/or not seeking to prevent it. Theft. Seizure of property (Redcliffe Castle). And the use of blood magic are examples of mages going too far.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 21, 2018 1:40:40 GMT
I'm working on a profile of Vivienne and as much of it is about her opinion of the Circle I thought I'd lay out a general defense of Loyalism first. The Loyalist fraternity is not small and their position is reasonable. Our understanding of it comes only from mages that don't adhere to it or whom are hostile to it until Vivienne- and still it gets little respect from the fandom at large. I want to articulate some of its underlying principles as I see it instead. I modified an actual list of conservative values in making this list if similarities are noticed. Because why do extra leg work? 1. The fundamental assumptions of the Chantry are valid. Magic is a gift- but a terrible one. Magic is dangerous. Magic is meant to serve man. Never is it meant to rule over him. Blood magic is morally wrong. Spirits and demons are dangerous. The hubris of mages caused the darkspawn and blights. In addition to their use of blood magic and worship of idols. 2. Non-mages have the right to be free from the influence and dangers of magic. 3. Mages require training so that they’re able to control themselves, perform socially useful magic and contribute to the study of magic. 4. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted. Mages that ascend to the top of one within the Circle or outside it are rightfully privileged. 5. Public oversight of magic and mages is necessary- and so trained non-mage public safety personnel is necessary. 6. Borders between mage and non-mage populations are reasonable. Likewise, limits on mage freedom of movement are reasonable. 7. Blood magic that involves blood sacrifice or mind control is a crime against nature. 8. Peaceful social being between mages and non-mages is preferable to isolation and to war. In consequence, it justly and rightly demands some sacrifice of individual impulse and idiosyncrasy. 9. It is better to teach mages about responsibilities than about rights. 10. It is better to do what everyone has always done, unless you have some extraordinarily valid reason to do otherwise. 11. Radical change should be viewed with suspicion, particularly in a time of radical change. 12. We should judge the Circle in comparison to other systems of magic training and control- and not to hypothetical utopias. 13. The Circle of Magi is autonomous and should remain free from Chantry and templar interference. The College of Enchanters should also leave individual circles to their own devices as much as possible. 14. Mages can go too far in fights for freedom. Terrorism. Killing non-combatants. The destruction of circles. The endangerment or killing of apprentices and mages unwilling to fight. Instigating fighting between mages and templars and/or not seeking to prevent it. Seizure of property (Redcliffe Castle). And the use of blood magic are examples of mages going to far. If the blood magic is morally wrong, the Chantry's morally wrong. About the "Loyalists" the question is: the Loyalists are loyal to whom? It's important! According to the wiki: "Loyalists follow the Chantry's word as it is written. They are often called 'Chantry apologists' for accepting and enforcing the Chantry's and the Templars' ever-present supervision."The Loyalists want the Circles under the Chantry and the Templars. Vivienne wants the Circles under the Chantry... if... she's the Divine. If not: she wants the Circles (the Mages) under her control. If Leliana's the Divine, Vivienne works against her... against the Chantry... Will the loyalist follow the Chantry or Vivienne? Or if Leliana's the Divine, the loyalty and the obedience doesn't matter anymore? What should a "good" Loyalist do, if Leliana's the Divine? So: your points are contradictory if your intention was to follow Vivienne's and the Loyalist's view. The Mages didn't go far in the fight for freedom. They should fight until they don't achieve it.
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Post by xerrai on Jul 22, 2018 2:46:19 GMT
I'm working on a profile of Vivienne and as much of it is about her opinion of the Circle, I thought I'd lay out a general defense of Loyalism first. The Loyalist fraternity is not small and their position is reasonable. Our understanding of it comes only from mages that don't adhere to it or whom are hostile to it until Vivienne- and still it gets little respect from the fandom at large. I want to articulate some of its underlying principles as I see it instead. I modified an actual list of conservative values in making this list if similarities are noticed. Because why do extra leg work? 1. The fundamental assumptions of the Chantry are valid. Magic is dangerous. Magic is a gift- but a terrible one. Magic is a corrupting influence left unchecked. Magic is meant to serve man. Never is it meant to rule over him. Blood magic is morally wrong. Spirits and demons are dangerous. The hubris of mages caused the darkspawn and blights- in addition to their worship of idols and use of blood magic. 2. Non-mages have the right to be free from the influence and dangers of magic. 3. Mages require training so that they’re able to control themselves, perform socially useful magic and contribute to the study of such magic. 4. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted. Mages that ascend to the top of one within the Circle or outside it are rightfully privileged. 5. Public oversight of magic and mages is necessary- and so trained non-mage public safety personnel is necessary. 6. Borders between mage and non-mage populations are reasonable. Likewise, limits on mage freedom of movement are reasonable. 7. Magic that involves blood sacrifice or mind control (so blood magic) is a crime against nature. 8. Peaceful social being between mages and non-mages is preferable to isolation and to war. In consequence, it justly and rightly demands some sacrifice of individual impulse and idiosyncrasy. 9. It is better to teach mages about responsibilities than about rights. 10. It is better to do what everyone has always done, unless you have some extraordinarily valid reason to do otherwise. 11. Radical change should be viewed with suspicion, particularly in a time of radical change. 12. We should judge the Circle in comparison to other systems of magic training and control- and not to hypothetical utopias. 13. The Circle of Magi is autonomous and should remain free from Chantry and Templar interference. The College of Enchanters likewise should leave individual circles to their own devices as much as possible. 14. Mages can go too far in fights for freedom. Terrorism. Killing non-combatants. The destruction of circles. The endangerment or killing of apprentices and mages unwilling to fight. Instigating fighting between mages and templars and/or not seeking to prevent it. Theft. Seizure of property (Redcliffe Castle). And the use of blood magic are examples of mages going to far. Ok a lot to go through here. I operate under a more aequitarian mindset myself. Mostly because I think loyalism can become prone to religious piety due to its strick adherence to the Chantry. 1. Partially disagree. While I believe magic can be dangerous, I do not believe it is inherently corrupting (fade, existence of felandaris). But it is inherently dangerous in the hands of mortals who are themselves not inherently good. I also partially disagree with the statement "Magic is meant to serve Man" bit. I believe there are some magical beings/forces that perhaps should be controlled. After all, was it not an attempt to gain the Golden City's power that lead to the blight? Has not more than one demon or spirit summoning gone wrong on account that a mage believed that he had the inherent ability and right to bind it? Is the development of blood magic itself not a mortal attempt to have magical forces serve him? I'm not saying to be ignorant or defenceless against these things, but I do think there should caution given in how the saying implies an inherent mortal supremacy over magical forces. And of course, the more practical interpretation of not being consumed by power and not abusing magic to rule over thier fellow man is a view I can agree with. 2. Yes, so long as these freedoms to be "free from magic and its influence" does not unnecessarily infringe on the safety, education and rights of mages or those who would otherwise wish to embrace magic. Otherwise we could have society commit genocide against mages just because they want to be "free" from magic and its influence. Or magical research (ex. healing, dreamwalking, an entire tree of the Spirit school) in certain areas could be unnecessarily hampered just because said research is a "magical influence" in and of itself. 3. I agree here. 4. Ideally this would be the case in all Circles but unfortunately, things like (former) noble status, wealth and the like still hold influence in Circle hierarchies. But then again, Tevinter and its hierarchies are all based on power and what is that power if not a form of magical competence? So maybe hierarchy isn't the best? But it's not like I can suggest an alternative right now so... 5. Disagree here. The public is fickle and largely uneducated. They can be just as likely to lynch or kill a mage than simply "oversee" them. And while Chantry/Templar oversight was great in theory we see how well that worked out...If it wasn't a Chantry used to politicking and a senile Divine (Beatrix) then it was the overzealous Templars who exerted unessesary forces on thier charges. Still though, I believe oversight is necessary. But preferably by several separate autonomous parties. Mages should get say in thier education and living of course, Templars can still police magical abuse/dangers if they adjust thier practices, and even outside parties like those representing the nations can be included too. To represent national/organizational interests and all that. But not neccesarily to exert authority over them. 6. Also partially disagree here. Borders between untrained mages, mage criminals or those otherwise dangerous to society can be reasonable but otherwise I think borders should be discouraged. Borders only help reinforce an us vs. them mentality that can easily lead to resentment and conflict that could otherwise be avoided. Which why I advocate for mages integrating into society. Let them be bakers, or farmers, or alchemists, etc. Let them form bonds of love, patriotism, family, etc. A mage that is part of a society can not only benefit said society, but is also far less likely to attack it. Limitations on freedoms and movement ultimately apply to everyone under a government. It's an implicit agreement between a government and ones who are subjected to its rule. So I see nothing inherently wrong there. No one wants anarchy after all. 7. I may not believe blood magic is a "crime against nature" (indifferent and uncaring that it is) but I do believe using it in those ways is immoral. 8. Also agree. Mostly covered in 6 but i'll copy and past it here. Limitations on freedoms and movement ultimately apply to everyone under a government. It's an implicit agreement between a government and ones who are subjected to its rule. So I see nothing inherently wrong there. 9. Disagree. I believe rights and responsibilities to be equally important. In no small part because in how one can influence and improve the other. 10. Disagree. Should blood magic continue in Tevinter? What about the overuse of tranquility in Southern Circles? The simple change and advancement in educational policies? If something is to continue, it should continue based on its merits. Not just because of tradition alone. 11. If by "suspicion" you mean "caution" sure. Sometimes radical change is good. What of Divine Leliana's social reforms that ultimately reduces racial segregation and bias in the Chantry? What about the fact that tranquility can be cured which itself a radical change from known knowledge systems? Or even the original creation of the Circle of Magi in the Divine Age which was itself a radical change in an otherwise radical time (blight, Drakon expansionism)? 13. The Circle of Magi (and the Templar Order for that matter) should be autonomous, but it isn't. Both are essentially under Chantry supervision now due to Chantry law. That being said there should be a certain amount of allowance to "interference". I want certain parties able to interfere when the situation calls for it. As an example, I want Templars able to interfere (within reason) in a Circle's affairs because a magical crime or magical abuse was committed. Checks and balances, that sort of thing. Mostly relating to point #5. But otherwise, yes, autonomy should be encouraged. 14. Oh absolutely. As in all wars and causes, there are some who go too far. <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="9.81999999999999" id="MoatPxIOPT0_97757786" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 9.82px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="9.81999999999999" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83883744" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: -5px; width: 23.64px; height: 9.82px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="9.81999999999999" id="MoatPxIOPT0_31808187" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 426px; width: 23.64px; height: 9.82px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="9.81999999999999" id="MoatPxIOPT0_99730801" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1122px; top: 426px; width: 23.64px; height: 9.82px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe>
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 22, 2018 3:56:48 GMT
xerrai ; I don't want to derail Vivienne's thread so I won't post a response. PM me or start a new thread please if you would like to discuss it. I prefer PM.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 31, 2018 14:26:02 GMT
This shouldn't be controversial but Vivienne's reform that allows mages into the Chantry shouldn't extend to mages from the new College of Enchanters. They probably don't care anyway, but they if they wanted to become priests and hold offices, they'd have to join the Circle of Magi first IMO.
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Post by MrGDL87 on Aug 3, 2018 18:34:42 GMT
Ok it's been awhile since I last posted in this thread but I'm wondering if anyone can provide an explanation. First off, I love Vivienne as a character for reasons seen in my original post. I usually have an inquisitor who allies with templars and Vivienne as Divine with high approval. So in the epilogue it states that the circles are restored and Vivienne holds the templars on a tight leash. However, this epilogue later states that Vivienne creates the college of enchanters as a favour to the inquisitor??? This last statement appears to be out of character because why would she open a new institution as competition to the circle, which would cause future rifts/problems. I know that this is a gameplay mechanism to even out everyone's world states, where there's two mage organisations but I'm trying to wrap my head around why she would do it. My inquisitor was supportive of the circle when speaking with Vivienne, so why would the college of enchanters be a "favour"? The only thing that I can see behind her reasoning would be to have some healthy competition to raise magical standards in Thedas but I'm clutching at straws. Anyone else have any ideas apart from the obvious gameplay mechanic reason.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 4, 2018 16:24:28 GMT
There isn't a good reason as we know, but if we must cast around for one perhaps she's just tired of fighting Circle holdouts. She could be more productive elsewhere if she isn't focusing her attention on them. The Circle is firmly established once again and the new College is unlikely to threaten it in any domain, so while its existence isn't ideal that it does is a smallish concern in the grander scheme of things. I certainly don't like it that Bioware pushes the justification for it on the Inquisition, however. She might not have fought until the bitter end but my Inquisitor wouldn't licence the College on the Inquisition's credibility. Not at all. Her capital and credibility as a public figure is still tied to the Inquisition and she is fundamentally opposed to the College anyway. Vivienne owes her a big favor.
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Post by lilyonce on Aug 4, 2018 16:45:47 GMT
And part one of my Vivienne profile will be up this weekend. Change of plans. Postponed indefinitely.
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Post by lilyonce on Sept 29, 2018 4:44:38 GMT
I'm working on my Vivienne profile (yes, still) and I have something I want to toss out for consideration about why Vivienne hates blood magic. If she were as mercenary as some think her to be it seems she'd endorse it. That she doesn't says some interesting things about her character IMO.
It seems to me that blood magic use emerges in moments of great personal freedom and not in moments of oppression or abuse, contrary to common opinion. Tevinter demonstrates this clearly. There blood magic is rampant yet by whom are the mages oppressed? It's only the Chantry's moralism that holds it back from open practice- that's what Vivienne understands from her Hobbesian point of view. Society and it's restrictions are not the cause of evil but rather what keep evil in check.
This observation applies to the mages of the south as well but in this way: Tapping blood magic requires the indulgence of the dark part of the psyche- the infantile shadow side that longs to be set free and rampage on animal instinct and the pleasure principle. Blood magic always arises from a condition of absolute freedom- even if just internally.
Blood magic is a gift of demons. It was born of the darkest recesses of the unconscious realm. The Fade is the hidden, little understood, and chaotic dimension of the mind and so blood magic is truly the eruption of the dark unconscious imagination into the conscious world. That such magic can be technocratically controlled, rendered a neutral tool is the fantasy of Rousseauists blind to the ugliness and brute power of the nature. A mage turning to blood magic gives herself over to the aggressive, elemental, anti-social forces of her unconscious. The Chantry is right to fear and condemn it in all circumstances and I think its why Vivienne also does.
Everything great about magic comes from the push of one's will outward at the world. That is the essence of Vivienne's character IMO- that's what she's about. She is pure will. Blood magic goes the opposite direction. It indulges the powerful but ultimately untrained, undisciplined, unconscious self. It's for the freeloader who refuses to self-actualize and the idiot that doesn't realize fire burns (as blood magic use usually doesn't end well). It is an abuse or corruption of freedom. A rejection of self-reliance and the dumping of self-development. And so she hates it.
She never outright says anything like that but IMO that's why Vivienne views blood magic as for the weak. And it's a component too of why she views magic more generally the way she does. Thoughts?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 29, 2018 12:01:38 GMT
lilyonce Yes, you characterized well, why she hates the blood magic. And she hates everything that connects to the demons. And she fears everything that not regulated enough. She fears from the freedom as well. She fears the freedom is chaos. She has her limitations.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2018 4:15:02 GMT
Crap. I'm doing another DAI run and again running into how wrong Vivienne is in regard to mages and spirits. First, my Trevelyan mage is doing just fine without the Templars looking over his shoulder. As are Dorian, Solas and herself. Also all the rebel mages who live at Skyhold.
Then in Crestwood I find a dead body with a note on it. It's a mage who had considered going to Redcliffe to join with the others. Instead of doing that, the mage decided to stay in Crestwood to protect who he perceived to be people defenseless against the demons and undead. This was a good mage working to help people and not bound by the Circle (at least not anymore).
I still think Vivienne forgets that while she was technically in a Circle she really had the freedom to do as she pleased. She had her own estate. She was able to potentially kill a noble without fear of consequence (depending on how the Inquisitor chose). If any other Circle mage did such a thing, the LEAST they'd get would be to be mage Tranquil but most likely executed. She's so out of touch with what it means to be a Circle mage that she can't really even understand why the mages rebelled.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 5:31:15 GMT
I definitely prefer the Viv that doesn't like Inky. I feel like her advice about shaping up as a leader and shaping the Inquisition is actually valuable advice. Unlike the bull shit, "you look tired, dear, let's find you new clothes, dear."
I wish she'd be that mean and useful the whole time. Instead, after that speech you get nothing else as useful. ever.
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Post by cloud9 on Dec 27, 2018 9:17:09 GMT
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 17, 2019 1:46:08 GMT
🤩🤩
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Post by Iddy on Mar 6, 2019 2:39:51 GMT
When Josephine said that Vivienne is "A valuable ally, as long as your interests align with hers", I realized something.
It is rather short sighted for a pro mage freedom Inquisitor to recruit her.
There was the risk that she would end up using her prestige and connections to undermine this new organization that supports the "malcontents".
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 17, 2019 11:08:19 GMT
I'm really surprised at Vivienne's chemistry with my Lavellan mage. I couldn't stand her in any of my earlier playthroughs. Have always reacted very badly to people who tried to manipulate me(still haven't forgiven my mother for pretending that my childhood scribbles deserved a spot on the fridge), and her sugar-sweet sing-song voice and pretentious intonation and courtesy is like nails across a blackboard. Always just recruited her so the Orlesian hobnobs would take me seriously, and then stayed as far away from her as possible at all times. This time around though, she and the Knight-Enchanter trainer are very useful for filling in an obvious gap in my Inquisitor's education: How to conduct oneself in ways that demand respect in the upper echelons of a human power structure. The main reason I had reservations about playing an elven character, fixed by the NPC I despised the most. Who'd have thunk? And while her hypocritical and condescending talk about how no mage except for her - "and you, of course, darling" - can be trained or expected to have any discipline at all still grates, my Dalish mage doesn't disagree with her as vehemently as my Trevelyan one did, not having been personally touched by either the Templars or Circles herself, or having any particular reason to respect shemlen's ability to train their mages properly. It lets me enjoy her content on some level at least, which I didn't expect at all going in. A lot of her yammering really does still grate though. There are sensible reasons why mages should be regulated and disciplined and forced to subject themselves to authority, but her bald-faced hypocrisy and naked ambition and total disregard for the lives of her colleagues make it really unpalatable to agree with her even on practical issues. It also amuses Lavellan to hear Vivienne and Leliana wax poetry about the importance of "Knight-Enchanters" to the Chantry while she and Solas privately agree that it's an Elven practice she's honoring, and wants to bring back to her people where it belongs. "Roots in Elven tradition", as if any shem or flat-ear would even know what that means.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Mar 21, 2019 16:11:01 GMT
I neither hate nor like Vivienne she's interesting, I love her design... but there's always this part that makes me wonder what is going on in her head though I suspect that's what makes her so good at maneuvering the Game my Inquisitors don't get along with her most of the time (to much mage freedom supporters), but are still able to get on her good side though I doubt I'd get along with her irl.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 22, 2019 16:37:22 GMT
I'm really surprised at Vivienne's chemistry with my Lavellan mage. I couldn't stand her in any of my earlier playthroughs. Have always reacted very badly to people who tried to manipulate me(still haven't forgiven my mother for pretending that my childhood scribbles deserved a spot on the fridge), and her sugar-sweet sing-song voice and pretentious intonation and courtesy is like nails across a blackboard. Always just recruited her so the Orlesian hobnobs would take me seriously, and then stayed as far away from her as possible at all times. This time around though, she and the Knight-Enchanter trainer are very useful for filling in an obvious gap in my Inquisitor's education: How to conduct oneself in ways that demand respect in the upper echelons of a human power structure. The main reason I had reservations about playing an elven character, fixed by the NPC I despised the most. Who'd have thunk? And while her hypocritical and condescending talk about how no mage except for her - "and you, of course, darling" - can be trained or expected to have any discipline at all still grates, my Dalish mage doesn't disagree with her as vehemently as my Trevelyan one did, not having been personally touched by either the Templars or Circles herself, or having any particular reason to respect shemlen's ability to train their mages properly. It lets me enjoy her content on some level at least, which I didn't expect at all going in. A lot of her yammering really does still grate though. There are sensible reasons why mages should be regulated and disciplined and forced to subject themselves to authority, but her bald-faced hypocrisy and naked ambition and total disregard for the lives of her colleges makes it really unpalatable to agree with her even on practical issues. It also amuses Lavellan to hear Vivienne and Leliana wax poetry about the importance of "Knight-Enchanters" to the Chantry while she and Solas privately agree that it's an Elven practice she's honoring, and wants to bring back to her people where it belongs. "Roots in Elven tradition", as if any shem or flat-ear would even know what that means. I mean, Lavellan could always just binge read books to learn about human society. But I must ask... how did your Inquisitor get along with Vivienne? Is s/he pro Circle? Yeah. What bothers me about Vivienne isn't so much her opinions, but the hypocrisy. I can respect Wynne's pro-Circle stance because she lived an entire life time there, so she never asked anyone to endure what she wasn't already dealing with herself. Meanwhile, Vivienne took the first opportunity she had to gain her freedom and then proceeded to scoff at the "malcontents".
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 22, 2019 18:38:56 GMT
I mean, Lavellan could always just binge read books to learn about human society. But I must ask... how did your Inquisitor get along with Vivienne? Is s/he pro Circle? Yeah. What bothers me about Vivienne isn't so much her opinions, but the hypocrisy. I can respect Wynne's pro-Circle stance because she lived an entire life time there, so she never asked anyone to endure what she wasn't already dealing with herself. Meanwhile, Vivienne took the first opportunity she had to gain her freedom and then proceeded to scoff at the "malcontents". Oh she does, but she's also very busy, and when you've had very little to read all your life and are then confronted with libraries of knowledge on anything imaginable written by people whose perspectives you barely empathize with, it probably gets overwhelming. It's always best to get a proper introduction to an important subject from someone who knows what they're talking about from real life experience, and can tell you about the actual pitfalls to avoid as they relate to your situation directly. And my Lavellan and Vivienne aren't great friends or anything, they just respect each other's abilities and treat each other with professional courtesy. As I said, Lavellan has never had a stake in how shemlen mages were trained before, but knows from personal experience that it needs to be undertaken with care and focus and an eye on teaching the individual mage responsibility to the people that surround him or her. She hasn't put a lot of thought into how a large number of young mages more or less justifiably shunned by society would accomplish that safely and humanely, but figures that isolated schools are as good a way as any from a logistical standpoint. Fiona and her rebels certainly didn't do a great enough impression to be trusted not to fuck up without adult supervision. And while Vivienne is very grandstanding and manipulative, the things she proposes are sensible enough as long as they're undertaken sensibly. Preferably by someone who actually feels responsible for the mages. They haven't had any conversations going into the specifics of how the circles are going to work yet though. For now, my Inquisitor is content to have the conscripted mages safely under her thumb while they deal with Corywhatshisface. What comes after will have to wait. From the other end, Vivienne respects Lavellan's self-mastery and discipline and is perfectly happy supporting someone who is amenable to her policies without necessarily caring for her reasons. It's not inconceivable that she looks down on her for being an elf and trained outside circle system, or for actually being interested in power and influence for the benefit of others. If she does then she doesn't show it though, which means they can work pleasantly together.
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Post by Garo on May 27, 2020 22:42:39 GMT
I love her sass. I just can't dislike her she is too much fun to have around.
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