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Post by Walter Black on Oct 27, 2021 3:59:39 GMT
Sometimes I think there are some big misconceptions about what role-playing so-called evil characters actually entails. Picking exclusively negative options not only gets old fast, but should turn everyone against you. In reality, it doesn't enough for my taste, but I've learned to chalk that up to Gameplay And Story Segregation and Player Entitlement. Your PC can have layers, biases and hypocrisies, understandable and sympathetic motives, and could still end up evil. Context matters.
To answer the OP's question, yes I've enjoyed most of the evil characters I've played, as they stretched my creativity. With that, I'll ask a few of my own: to all those who have problems playing evil PCs, do you write, even if it's just fan fiction? If so, how do you get into your villians' heads, to make them 3 dimensional? Why*must* your protagonist reflect you, as opposed to any of your other characters?
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 27, 2021 7:51:38 GMT
I've tried a few times playing fully fledged evil character in DA:O. I'm ALWAYS stopping at Ostagar, because I cannot force myself to kill the dog. Maybe you need to play as a cat person
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Post by ergates on Oct 27, 2021 12:33:34 GMT
Sometimes I think there are some big misconceptions about what role-playing so-called evil characters actually entails. Picking exclusively negative options not only gets old fast, but should turn everyone against you. You are absolutely correct. It's for this reason that I labelled such a character 'chaotic jerk'. But regardless, I have still executed 'non-canon' playthroughs where I did precisely that -- deliberately choosing every worst-possible outcome out of pure, morbid curiosity to see what would happen if I did. Actually quite surprised that more people haven't done the same. As for writing, the honest answer is I used to do creative writing. I write professionally for a living (though I suspect that doesn't show up very well on these forums based on the long rambling posts I thrash out) but the type of writing that pays my bills is a bloggy/column style of writing and not creative writing or fiction. Back in Ye Olden Dayes when dinosaurs ruled the earth and I had more spare time to write short stories and fiction, 'getting inside a character's head' wasn't precisely what I was doing. It was more a case of manufacturing a persona and then encasing it into a blank template. I think that 'getting into their head' implies a form of self-referential role-play based upon thinking as the character thinks, formulating belief systems and actions upon a grossly stretched framework of " what would I do?" and then elongating it to also encompass the mores of the character. I consider all characters are entirely separate beings, each with their own discreet behaviour and thought patterns, none of which bear any relation to my own feelings on the matter. Once this template is built and set in motion, the characters effectively write themselves. Not sure how much sense any of the above makes. It kind-of abstract and hard to explain in detail.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Oct 27, 2021 12:35:43 GMT
I've tried a few times playing fully fledged evil character in DA:O. I'm ALWAYS stopping at Ostagar, because I cannot force myself to kill the dog. Don't play Wolfenstein 2 The New Colossus then. No way not to kill the dog except for not shooting the dog. But if you don't the father kills the dog and as such... I like that I get to kill the father. I hate my biological father almost as much. That got very dark.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Oct 27, 2021 12:39:47 GMT
Sometimes I think there are some big misconceptions about what role-playing so-called evil characters actually entails. Picking exclusively negative options not only gets old fast, but should turn everyone against you. You are absolutely correct. It's for this reason that I labelled such a character 'chaotic jerk'. But regardless, I have still executed 'non-canon' playthroughs where I did precisely that - deliberately choosing every worst-possible outcome out of pure, morbid curiousity to see what would happen if I did. Actually quite surprised that more people haven't done the same. I just can't do the truly evil playthroughs. I mean wiping out the rachni is something I could never do and while it wasn't exactly evil given the circumstances I could never kill wrex. The closest I ever came was in DA2 so I could side with the anti qunari people.
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Post by ergates on Oct 27, 2021 12:57:32 GMT
Don't play Wolfenstein 2 The New Colossus then. No way not to kill the dog except for not shooting the dog. But if you don't the father kills the dog and as such... I like that I get to kill the father. I hate my biological father almost as much. I know that scene very well, and I found myself literally shouting threats at the monitor in dumb horror, as if it would somehow comply with my desire to turn the shotgun away from the dog and at that bastard of a father instead, but of course it's a no-win situation, you either shoot the dog, or aim poorly and miss, either way the dog dies. Utterly vile, evil characters who are entirely free of nuance, have no redeeming features, and who no reasonable-thinking person can identify with are actually becoming rather rare within gaming, movies, TV series' etc. Modern writers far prefer to add shades of grey to their villains, or create a trait, motive or back story that allows us to, at the very least, understand-if-not-condone their actions. Coming across a villain, such as Blazkowicz's father, who is utterly, unrelatable evil was actually quite refreshing. I'd also argue that Sister Petrice draws quite close to being such a character.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 27, 2021 14:39:34 GMT
You are absolutely correct. It's for this reason that I labelled such a character 'chaotic jerk'. But regardless, I have still executed 'non-canon' playthroughs where I did precisely that - deliberately choosing every worst-possible outcome out of pure, morbid curiousity to see what would happen if I did. Actually quite surprised that more people haven't done the same. I just can't do the truly evil playthroughs. I mean wiping out the rachni is something I could never do and while it wasn't exactly evil given the circumstances I could never kill wrex. The closest I ever came was in DA2 so I could side with the anti qunari people. We only have the queen's word that the rachni were indoctrinated, she could've been lying to save herself. Even still, given how fast rachni breed, conflict over space and resources is inevitable. It always annoyed me how few Bioware antagonists lie to Paragon players when caught ("I'll be good this time I pinky swear!"), and/or try to take advantage of their naivete. If not enough do in DA4, especially in Tevinter, I will be severely disappointed.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 27, 2021 15:08:47 GMT
I just can't do the truly evil playthroughs. I mean wiping out the rachni is something I could never do and while it wasn't exactly evil given the circumstances I could never kill wrex. The closest I ever came was in DA2 so I could side with the anti qunari people. Killing Wrex is easy. He proves why the genophage should never be cured. He's just a stupid krogan. Killing him would be doing his species a favor. I have sided with Petrice. I actually liked doing that though I've gone against her more. Would not helping Redcliffe be considered evil? Leave and come back to find everyone dead, then kill Isolde to save her kid instead of going to the circle for help? Or deal with the demon head on leading to the kid dying? Romance Alistair then stab him in the back by having Loghain become a Warden? How about poisoning the ashes? Doing that would lead to Leliana being killed, and I believe Wynne as well, if she is with the Warden? What someone call's evil, another might say it's good.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Oct 27, 2021 17:26:12 GMT
I've tried a few times playing fully fledged evil character in DA:O. I'm ALWAYS stopping at Ostagar, because I cannot force myself to kill the dog. Maybe you need to play as a cat person To be fair, you could just play an evil character that likes dogs. Maybe mabari are your weak spot, and you just can't be evil to them. Then, you wreck everyone else's lives with impunity from your conscience!
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Post by bolt on Oct 27, 2021 23:09:39 GMT
I think the closest I've come to evil characters are my elven mage in DAO who really, really didn't like humans much (and took every opportunity to let them know it). He helped annul his own Circle (human organization), helped the Dalish kill the werewolves, refused to defend Redcliffe, knifed Jowan in his cell. Just a lovely fella to be around, really.
In DA2, I had a Templar-supporting blood mage who romanced Anders (rivalry path, of course). She also gave Merrill crap for practicing blood magic. Basically, her mindset was 'Only I know what's best.' She was definitely entertaining since I picked humorous options a lot, but not my favorite and certainly not my canon.
These are outlier characters for me, though. Right now, I've got a Light-sided Sith Warrior in SWTOR. He's still a fight magnet since Jedi seem to have trouble believing the Sith showed up for a friendly chat and some coffee.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Oct 28, 2021 3:45:37 GMT
Don't play Wolfenstein 2 The New Colossus then. No way not to kill the dog except for not shooting the dog. But if you don't the father kills the dog and as such... I like that I get to kill the father. I hate my biological father almost as much. That got very dark. That is just twilight. He manipulated and terrorized my family for years. He took delight in psychologically torturing my mothers' mother especially.
We lived right on the road. She had a thing about screeching tires.
Every week he would do that... 3AM ...........SCREEECH!
We called the police multiple times and he would always charm/lie his way out of it. There was no evidence -the marks that should be on the asphalt -wouldn't be there.
Or he would have someone validate he was in another city.
This brought on what I believe was stressed induced stomach cancer in my grand mother. Decades later I realize he probably had mega boombox that did the noises.
There were other things he did... -think Roman Empire whipping but not the belt end. He would lock down the house afterwards -drain the cars of gas -no way to leave ect.
Again he would worm his way out of it -slyer than Loki.
So yeah I think I have the right to despise or hate him.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 28, 2021 9:20:13 GMT
Sometimes I think there are some big misconceptions about what role-playing so-called evil characters actually entails. Picking exclusively negative options not only gets old fast, but should turn everyone against you. In reality, it doesn't enough for my taste, but I've learned to chalk that up to Gameplay And Story Segregation and Player Entitlement. Your PC can have layers, biases and hypocrisies, understandable and sympathetic motives, and could still end up evil. Context matters. To answer the OP's question, yes I've enjoyed most of the evil characters I've played, as they stretched my creativity. With that, I'll ask a few of my own: to all those who have problems playing evil PCs, do you write, even if it's just fan fiction? If so, how do you get into your villians' heads, to make them 3 dimensional? Why*must* your protagonist reflect you, as opposed to any of your other characters? I like to play evil characters in pen & paper groups and I do like to write them in my own stories (not fanfiction) - when I can shape them. I just don't like the often cringy stuff you have to do to be an evil character in computer games. I mean, why would you kill the Dalish, if you need people to fight the Blight? Why let a village of innocent people get slaughtered?
I do get the Connor dilemma. If you happen to play someone afraid of demons or someone, who wasn't at the Circle yet and is suspicious of teh bloodmage offering help, you might consider killing Connor to be the best possible action - this is one of the few situations in most games, I played, where I don't see the evil action as stupid.
One could argue for selling the elves into slavery too, because the Tevinet rslavers give you something in return, but I'd think, it is better, the elves stay and maybe help defend teh city (which some of them did).
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Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 28, 2021 12:11:42 GMT
I think the closest I've come to evil characters are my elven mage in DAO who really, really didn't like humans much (and took every opportunity to let them know it). He helped annul his own Circle (human organization), helped the Dalish kill the werewolves, refused to defend Redcliffe, knifed Jowan in his cell. Just a lovely fella to be around, really. In DA2, I had a Templar-supporting blood mage who romanced Anders (rivalry path, of course). She also gave Merrill crap for practicing blood magic. Basically, her mindset was 'Only I know what's best.' She was definitely entertaining since I picked humorous options a lot, but not my favorite and certainly not my canon. These are outlier characters for me, though. Right now, I've got a Light-sided Sith Warrior in SWTOR. He's still a fight magnet since Jedi seem to have trouble believing the Sith showed up for a friendly chat and some coffee. Yeah I think the most evil thingI've done in DA is helped the dalish kill the werewolves as my current warden did that but given they ewre a dalish elf themselves they felt justified. But generally in DA when m characters do stuff like that they do it moer as a retalitory strike rather than out of malice in their eyes to remind them who's in charge here kind of thing.
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Post by leadintea on Oct 28, 2021 21:29:20 GMT
Although I prefer playing good characters, I have to say, the funniest playthroughs I've ever played in DA2 and the ME series was with an evil PC.
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Post by Jarovbees on Oct 28, 2021 23:29:38 GMT
Chaotic jerks, sure. Evil...eh. I haven't gotten around to doing full playthroughs of one, though there have been times where I saved and then tested out all the options of a scenario just to see them for myself. But I never considered those 'canon' for my playthroughs, just a (usually horrifying) what-if. I could only manage to exile Alistair and recruit Loghain once before I hit my wall of 'well, that was traumatizing, time to reload and do this right'.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Oct 29, 2021 4:06:14 GMT
I'm not entirely sure it's even possible to play full-on "evil" in Inquisition.
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Post by duskwanderer on Oct 29, 2021 4:55:06 GMT
I'm not someone who enjoys dick choices. But this stems from the fact that they seem to be thrown in there for the sole purpose of having a dick choice. Mass Effect 1 was a great example of this, the decisions that seemed more "renegade" were actually just being a jerkass.
I don't mind having harsh choices for the purpose of my mission, but the justification needs to be good. Often, I find, the reward isn't worth it (this also includes getting a bigger reward for the nice guy act), or it doesn't really affect things in the long run. I mean, throwing a knife in the head of some random pub owner is just being an absolute sociopath.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 29, 2021 5:49:57 GMT
I'm not entirely sure it's even possible to play full-on "evil" in Inquisition. More's the pity...
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Post by garrusfan1 on Oct 29, 2021 16:41:58 GMT
Chaotic jerks, sure. Evil...eh. I haven't gotten around to doing full playthroughs of one, though there have been times where I saved and then tested out all the options of a scenario just to see them for myself. But I never considered those 'canon' for my playthroughs, just a (usually horrifying) what-if. I could only manage to exile Alistair and recruit Loghain once before I hit my wall of 'well, that was traumatizing, time to reload and do this right'. This is like me. I only ruined the sacred ashes once and that was to get the reaver specilization, then I immediatly canceled the game and went back to an older save.
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Post by adonniel on Oct 29, 2021 20:02:33 GMT
When it comes to ME, I prefer leaning more towards Renegade conversation options because they let me act more the way I'd like. But it's a blend of choices. Paragon lines are very generic and boring conversation wise.
When it comes to DAO, I strongly prefer being heroic, but I've done some playthroughs with occasional evil option blended in. I get chuckles out of some situations unexpectedly. One time, I had chosen to take out the Dalish. Then an elven party ambushed my Warden and demanded to know why she's done it when the elves were ready to help. I told them it was all Zathrian's fault and figured they'd attack me, but suddenly she was like ok and they walked off. My Warden was O_O much like myself and then I evil laughed.
In most situations though I feel bad for choosing evil options and my chosen world templates are made of good choices.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 29, 2021 22:15:29 GMT
My biggest problem with Mass Effect's morality system is how "gameified" it is; if you want the higher Persuasion Checks, you HAVE to go either 100% Paragon or Renegade exclusively. It doesn't make much sense to me as a Reputation meter either, since you could be interacting with people who know little to nothing about you, in any order. There's no room for nuance, biases or contradictions, or changing your Shepard's mind over time without sacrificing ability scores.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Oct 30, 2021 20:35:26 GMT
My biggest problem with Mass Effect's morality system is how "gameified" it is; if you want the higher Persuasion Checks, you HAVE to go either 100% Paragon or Renegade exclusively. It doesn't make much sense to me as a Reputation meter either, since you could be interacting with people who know little to nothing about you, in any order. There's no room for nuance, biases or contradictions, or changing your Shepard's mind over time without sacrificing ability scores. Yeah I never got renegade enough in ME2 to defuse the Tali legion argument with a renegade option.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 31, 2021 8:33:12 GMT
My biggest problem with Mass Effect's morality system is how "gameified" it is; if you want the higher Persuasion Checks, you HAVE to go either 100% Paragon or Renegade exclusively. This annoyed me too. It meant you couldn't give nuance to your character. It was the same with the friendship/rivalry metre in DA2. If you didn't have extreme views one way or the other you could end up with companions turning against you just because you hadn't advanced the metre sufficiently to lock them in. It seemed odd that they could be either end of the spectrum and still be loyal but turn against someone who was not a total bigot, even though in every other respect they were exactly the same person. I never play someone as a total evil jerk because that just seems stupid to me. Really clever evil people don't make it obvious, particularly to those they want to impress to get them on their side. It is why I so liked Saravok as the evil enemy in Baldurs Gate because he had got the leadership of the city on his side, even though he was a terrible person behind the scenes. That is what intelligent schemers do. This is why I need to have a valid reason why my PC would make a non-heroic choice. Usually I can justify it from a common sense approach, even though the writers would class this a ruthless. Why risk the safety of an entire village by leaving a possessed kid running around with only his mother and bewitched uncle to keep him under control? Why put Alistair on the throne when he wasn't even capable of stepping up and taking leadership of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden? (Which he should have done having been in the organisation longer than me). Why trust Eamon as an adviser when he had been encouraging Cailan to ditch Anora and likely had been behind the marriage alliance with Celene too? Clearly, a better option was for my PC to marry Anora and then rule jointly with her. Why kill Loghain when he could still bring his years of experience to aid the Wardens? (Which was also the recommendation of the senior warden, Riorden). It would also earn Anora's gratitude for being merciful to her father. At the end of DAO, Loghain willingly sacrificed himself as he said that Ferelden would be in good hands with my PC. Some people might not take approbation from Loghain as a compliment but my guy thought it was totally true. Incidentally, he rejected Morrigan's proposal because he didn't trust her but gave Loghain the option first and Loghain begged him not to make him sleep with her. Did his choices make him evil? Some might say so but I saw it just that he was a pragmatist and adept politician. I did play him differently to how I normally would and how I played my other Wardens but he wasn't making certain decisions without me having a valid reason why he might do so. He also did have some moral principles. For example, he would never do a deal with the slaver, although he gave him the option to walk away with his life but the slaver wasn't wise enough to take it.
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Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3mptyRoad
PSN: TheEmptyRoad
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Nov 2, 2021 19:06:08 GMT
Chaotic Jackass? Nah. Lawful Ruthless? Eyyyup.
With a dash of manipulative ambition? Maaaaybe.
Heck some of my default 'canon' descisions are probably considered 'evil'.
Letting Branka create a golem army to help me fight the Darkspawn? My Canon Warden allowed this. Letting Avernus continue his research without restraint? Every tool in the toolbox. Hold back the Alliance Fleet to focus on Sovereign? Yup. Set up Unhardened Alistair as a puppet King dancing to my Warden-turned-Chancellor's strings? Haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe on my next playthrough.
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
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Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
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Gileadan
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gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Nov 3, 2021 9:39:58 GMT
Generally speaking (i.e. not limited to BioWare games) I find absolutely lawful characters harder to play than evil ones. Playing evil makes me feel I'm in a Tarantino movie with all the seriousness or lack thereof that implies.
But lawful characters? Jeez.
"There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man."
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