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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 5:10:50 GMT
Open-ended question, pretty straightforward, run with it as you will.
Do they exist, could they exist, why they obviously don't exist, why you met one in an alley last Friday, whatever works. I'm randomly curious and the question has popped up a bit for me lately. Also the kind of thing everyone has a take on.
***
Question also inspired by the successful James Webb launch.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 26, 2021 6:03:56 GMT
Yes there is. I'll go one step further, there is intelligent alien life.
I think there is a lot of alien life though not what we may imagine.
The issue is we are very far way and no bus to get us there at this point in time.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 26, 2021 6:22:58 GMT
I think there is definitely alien life and some of it will be intelligent. My reasoning is simple weight of numbers. Even if the percentage of planets that can support life is 0.00001%, that is still an absurdly large number of planets.
I do not subscribe to the idea that humans have periodically been abducted for testing by alien life. I don’t go so far as to say it absolutely, unequivocally “has not happened”, but I am unconvinced by the notion.
I do also think it’s a mostly redundant question because with galaxies hurtling away from each other at faster than the speed of light, encountering alien life - intelligent or otherwise - seems unlikely to be on the cards for humanity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 7:04:40 GMT
I think there is definitely alien life and some of it will be intelligent. My reasoning is simple weight of numbers. Even if the percentage of planets that can support life is 0.00001%, that is still an absurdly large number of planets. melodysheep has a wonderful take on it.
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Post by bear on Dec 26, 2021 12:01:31 GMT
I am convinced intelligent alien life exists, simply based on how many solar systems there are in the universe. Whether just one of them, or ourselves one day, will ever master (instant) inter-stellar travel, is a whole other matter. If interstellar travellers exist, I imagine they'd be less like spaceships and more like massive floating cities or nations, like the Quarians in ME-verse.
I am less interested in if they exist, than how they do, though. Would they have music, individuality, what would their family units be like, would they be religious, and within the species, what would the extent of their cultural differences be? Religious differences? Way, way, too often do sci-fi writers and movemakers create space aliens that all adhere to one culture, one belief, one outlook, with only humans being diverse. Which I cannot think of as anything but impossible.
I'm not a believer in "ancient aliens" as the progenitors of human civilisation or original inventors of human technology, and generally consider people who think aliens built the pyramids, etc. as simply vastly underestimating human ingenuity. The assume people in the past were less "advanced", so if they see evidence to the contrary, they just take that evidence and assume someone more "advanced" invented it. I don't, however, consider it impossible that - assuming their telescopes/other tech discovered our planet at the right time - they (or multiple space-faring species) could have observed our development.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 26, 2021 12:54:22 GMT
Read in interesting take on the issue not too long ago. Forgot who exactly said this (might have been Scott Manley) but the argument was that it is amazing to see how life adapted to occupy any and all environments on the earth, from deep see volcanoes with no light and massive pressure to the upped atmosphere with barely any pressure or traditional nutrients, life as a whole is amazingly adaptable and resilient (all those extinction level events could only wipe out certain species, not the totality of life. Therefore -so the argument goes - if you have conditions that allow complex enough molecules to form initially, it should be very likely that life would form and thrive in a rather wide range of environmental conditions and thus it should be around in lot's of places in the universe. The question of intelligent life is interesting. Given the clear advantage, intelligence has given primates to dominate the environment, it seems likely that it would be an attractor in the evolutionary tree. But then, evolution is very weird and we only have an n of 1 to observe (unless you count artificial evolutionary models. which I think we cannot build without our biases to start with, so that's rather dubious). Without more data, we can't really get out of the realm of speculation, which brings us to the Drake equation. If we go by the Drake equation, there should be many civilizations out there, even in the confines of the Milky Way. So why didn't we hear from them? Well, most of the great filters sound pretty depressing, so I am not a fan (on a purely emotional basis of course ). But there are too may unknowns as to how difficult it would really be for signals to reach here over the vast vast distances and the very large volumes of space and still be detectable. And even if that's the case, the question is if we'd be able to interpret them as signals at all if they come from life with completely different sensory systems. So yea, I think if we just go by the numbers, it should be very likely that different forms of life may have developed elsewhere. Whether other intelligent life forms and civilizations have developed, who knows. Given the massive numbers of potential comparable environments we are dealing with plus the idea that completely different forms of life are possible, personally, I give it a very good chance.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 26, 2021 13:02:12 GMT
Alien life out there in outer space? - Absolutely!
Alien intelligent life out there in our Galaxy? - Absolutely!
Alien intelligent, technical civilization out there in our Galaxy? - I believe so. I'm convinced it must be, because numbers and laws of nature leads to it.
Alien higher life (not protein molecules or virus riding an asteroid) having ever visited Earth? - Absolutely not! It's all BS.
Alien life being aware of our existence? - Hopefully not. 😱
Chances of us ever meeting up? - Pretty slim, since the last serious estimate put the number of intelligent technical civilizations in our Galaxy to be around 38, and the distances are enormous.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 26, 2021 17:20:00 GMT
If there is a bird of prey from a distant galaxy, and if this bird has a cough,
Is it an ill eagle alien?
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 27, 2021 8:42:58 GMT
Stanislaw Lem's novel "Fiasko" is what shaped my concept of alien life.
First you have the Fermi paradox and next you hmight ave alien life that is so fundamentally diifferent than us.
In general Lem did a great deal of his work about this. Lots of his novels deal with incrohensible alien contacts.
There is a somewhat recent German author who was acclaimed for a swarm hive mind creature but it's just a knock off from Lem's The Invincible
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 27, 2021 12:12:38 GMT
I think sentient intelligent Alien life evolves into an AI rather quickly. Just look at us, couple hundred years of technological advancements and we're already starting on researching AI, and we're not even a type I civilization (yet?). Its just a part of natural evolution.
Then, I think an AI will immediately go into hiding, afraid of other AI that is hell-bent on destroying any competition via first strikes, explaining the lack of detectable alien life. Imagine a civilization, AI or otherwise, detects another civilization and immediately makes a preemptive strike.
So I think we have some paranoid isolated AI out there that have super powerful weapons and try their best to hide their existence from each other.
One other interesting thought is that we're the first. Maybe there is absolutely zero intelligent Alien life out there because we're the first species to reach this level of intelligence. Somebody got to be the first.
Both explain the Fermi paradox.
That's my take on intelligent Aliens.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 27, 2021 18:35:39 GMT
I think sentient intelligent Alien life evolves into an AI rather quickly. Just look at us, couple hundred years of technological advancements and we're already starting on researching AI, and we're not even a type I civilization (yet?). Its just a part of natural evolution. Then, I think an AI will immediately go into hiding, afraid of other AI that is hell-bent on destroying any competition via first strikes, explaining the lack of detectable alien life. Imagine a civilization, AI or otherwise, detects another civilization and immediately makes a preemptive strike. So I think we have some paranoid isolated AI out there that have super powerful weapons and try their best to hide their existence from each other. One other interesting thought is that we're the first. Maybe there is absolutely zero intelligent Alien life out there because we're the first species to reach this level of intelligence. Somebody got to be the first. Both explain the Fermi paradox. That's my take on intelligent Aliens. then you might like the dark forest theory
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 27, 2021 18:56:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 19:25:20 GMT
Us being the first. That's something I think has a lot of merit and might even be the reality we live in. Up until that video I linked above to DKR I'd never considered our universe in, well, "child bearing years". How long it has to sustain life as we know it. Turns out, it's just getting started. Evolution as a spontaneous and random event seems entirely plausible to me given the time-frames. But it'd still be chance, and those time-frames aren't as big to me as they once were. These two images from a segment in the video are what got me thinking we could be the "First Ones".
I find the idea that we could be the first ones a bit terrifying. We have a long ways to go before we're going to be worthy of shepherding a universe. But I think it's quite plausible. *** While I think the Dark Forest idea is intriguing it has too many holes for me to believe. The AI might want to hide, but it'd have to "cover up" every signal that already left the planet before it was built. As an example, look at if we wanted to hide. There's already 100 lightyears of us broadcasting our existence out there. And those emissions have reached planets that could be habitable. Our atmosphere is life-sustaining. That's detectable whether want to show or not, and has been detectable for a loooong time. They don't need to detect us, just that we're a possibility. Staking out the watering-holes. Dark Forest leans on the idea that you can hide in the first place. In reality, I don't believe you can. *** I think the idea of organics evolving machine intelligence fairly quickly has merit. I'm curious how it'll end up for us, or others. - Organics get nano-bodies and we manage consciousness down/upload. I do like ascension themes. - Organics get wrecked and AI Reapers/Cylons/Skynets are born. Or Grey Goo planets. - Organics stay organics, but we get benevolent AI. Bonding at birth, an AI that lives with and guides you benevolently. Learning and harnessing your chaotic and imaginative nature that it can't, while using it's capacities for the betterment of all. The only reason I can see an AI wanting to keep messy organics around is that it needs that chaos we can breed to get out of loops, reduce or eliminate stagnancy. (And maybe it'll just be what we define as "good". Like I said, benevolent.)
- Or a relatively benevolent AI government without the bonding I'd mentioned above.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 27, 2021 19:34:23 GMT
While I think the Dark Forest idea is intriguing it has too many holes for me to believe. The AI might want to hide, but it'd have to "cover up" every signal that already left the planet before it was built. As an example, look at if we wanted to hide. There's already 100 lightyears of us broadcasting our existence out there. And those emissions have reached planets that could be habitable. I used to believe that too, but I saw a documentary that said that all we broadcasted so far was so low-energy its completely dissolved into the background noise, making it a non-issue. I did a little bit of research and that seems to be true, our communications are still so primitive and low power we're pretty quiet still. And we probably should keep quiet until we know more about the universe. I don't think AI will turn out benevolent to life. For organisms that don't need to live in tribes or groups and are completely independent its best to destroy all competition and possible opposition by any means necessary. I try to imagine logical reasons for an AI not to obliterate humans and so far I have found none. On the other hand, who knows what wonders are created if you take consciousness and elevate it to incomprehensible godlike levels, like the difference from mouse to human. Maybe its logic is to fight chaos by protecting all live and all order-creating organisms and systems. Hard to say, but that's what I hope will happen.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 27, 2021 20:15:48 GMT
Well it ain't good if we are the first or the most advanced. Without outside help I do not see us avoiding an extinction event before we can go far enough to go elsewhere in the galaxy let alone the universe.
The AI question is interesting. No matter what AI has to be given some value system to be based on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 20:27:16 GMT
I used to believe that too, but I saw a documentary that said that all we broadcasted so far was so low-energy its completely dissolved into the background noise, making it a non-issue. I did a little bit of research and that seems to be true, our communications are still so primitive and low power we're pretty quiet still. And we probably should keep quiet until we know more about the universe. Interesting, but there's so many more holes its like potentially plugging one in a sieve. (Like our planet's habitability has been broadcast to the universe for a few billion years.) I don't think AI will turn out benevolent to life. For organisms that don't need to live in tribes or groups and are completely independent its best to destroy all competition and possible opposition by any means necessary. Disagree here, I believe they'd be more cooperative, not less. I try to imagine logical reasons for an AI not to obliterate humans and so far I have found none. Yeah this is tough. Only thing I got is they'd have a use for the chaotic nature of organic life and valued it for growth. But it's a big stretch. Maybe its logic is to fight chaos by protecting all live and all order-creating organisms and systems. Hard to say, but that's what I hope will happen. Hopefully some day we'll make good pets.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 27, 2021 20:37:11 GMT
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Post by General Mahad on Dec 28, 2021 2:22:36 GMT
I'm around 60% certain that alien life exists on Europa in its subterranean seas; that being said, the creatures there are more likely than not microbes or worms or other primitive organisms. I doubt we will have contact with sentient beings in our lifetimes....well, open contact with sentient beings. Of course, I could be wrong given that NASA is enlisting the help of clerics to see how people might react to the discovery of aliens: NASA enlisted theologians to assess how we would react to alien life www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nasa-enlists-theologians-to-assess-how-we-would-react-to-alien-life/ar-AAS7KE3Fun Fact: In the Mass Effect universe, world religions were turned on their head when settlers discovered the ruins on Mars. That being said, human religions did not die out but simply adapted to the existance of other races.
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Post by seven on Dec 28, 2021 7:59:33 GMT
Yes. Will we ever encounter it? I think most likely not. Will they be an advanced species if so? Even less likely. Some science theoretical physics buff, I thinkkkkkk it was Michio Kaku basically said, why would they want to come here, of all places? Probably some aggressive paraphrasing there though I just think with the sheer number of galaxies possible, it is extremely unlucky that we are the sole inhabited planet in any way.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Dec 28, 2021 9:38:24 GMT
Yes. Will we ever encounter it? I think most likely not. Once watched a pretty interesting documentary, they were talking about self-replicating science drones - they said an Alien species would be able to map most of the universe in a very short time using that kind of system. So either they've already found us, they are not interested in other Alien life (highly doubt that this is the case, gathering information is one of the most basic & important things you can do to ensure your survival) or there is nobody intelligent out there. It also works the other way around, maybe we will be able to make drones like that in a couple hundred years, then we will find out what's really going on. It will take some time but a realistic amount of time.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Dec 28, 2021 12:47:35 GMT
I mostly doubt there is any. If there is, I doubt it would ever exist close enough for us to be aware of each other.
But I'm only likely to care if they show up with guns and/or probes. Probes are negotiable.
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Post by Patricia on Dec 28, 2021 13:58:19 GMT
^ Really from all those billions of planets in the universe you think we're the only ones out there ... nope. My take is that we're are 100% definitely ( i wanna bet all the money in the world ) not the only ones out there. And i think it's more like in Babylon 5 that there're older races like the Vorlons who are at least millions of years older then us. And also millions of different species ( find the humans ^ ) and i even think that there are species that do not need water to survive.
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Post by nopersdeviv on Dec 28, 2021 14:30:32 GMT
The universe is too vast for there not to be life out there. Microbial life for sure. Probably even fungal and plant life.
We'd be a pretty arrogant race to assume we are the only "advanced" lifeforms in existence. But the question isn't really if it's out there, it's more whether or not we'll make contact and be able to communicate with them.
We still haven't learned the extent of the intelligence of the beings on this planet,there's just an assumption that humans are the most intelligent.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 28, 2021 14:48:45 GMT
Yes. Will we ever encounter it? I think most likely not. Once watched a pretty interesting documentary, they were talking about self-replicating science drones - they said an Alien species would be able to map most of the universe in a very short time using that kind of system. So either they've already found us, they are not interested in other Alien life (highly doubt that this is the case, gathering information is one of the most basic & important things you can do to ensure your survival) or there is nobody intelligent out there. It also works the other way around, maybe we will be able to make drones like that in a couple hundred years, then we will find out what's really going on. It will take some time but a realistic amount of time. Oh yes. But the "very short time" for only our Galaxy, is still at least 2 million years, assuming some very advanced propulsion, and there's 400 billion solar systems, which should take some time, and it would take another at least 2 million years for the information to make its way back, since electromagnetic communication will only work over short distances. The entire Universe? - No way! It can never be done, because even if you assume the entire Universe is only our Big Bang, and nothing else, you can never reach the far parts. And let us remind ourselves about that our technical and knowledgeable civilization is only about 300-400 years old. But certainly, I'm convinced that advanced space navigating civilizations have to be heavily machine intelligence dominated civilizations.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Dec 28, 2021 17:13:37 GMT
^ Really from all those billions of planets in the universe you think we're the only ones out there ... nope. My take is that we're are 100% definitely ( i wanna bet all the money in the world ) not the only ones out there. I've considered your position, and have decided to continue lacking certainty about the unknowable. But you have my permission to apologize to them on my behalf when they get here. But only if they don't kill/enslave/non-consensually probe us.
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