The Mosaics - What do they really mean?

Aug 15, 2016 21:00:41 GMT thats1evildude said:

Could you screenshot this reference to the Veil in the Keep? I can't find it anywhere.

Go to the "World Lore" tab and click on the Ferelden icon on the map. There is a timeline on the left side that pops up.

The thing is Solas quite emphatically says that he was to blame for the loss of immortality by the elves and that it was because of the creation of the Veil. It took everything from them, their magic, their immortality and they appeared like tranquil to him. Now I may have misremembered it saying about the Veil but it definitely says that "elven immortality ends", so by implication that is when the Veil went up because that is when it ended. I realise the explanation behind it says the same as WoT1, that the elves first noticed the quickening. However, it would not have taken long for the elves to realise that they were no longer ageless. It certainly wouldn't have been as long as 250 years which is the time from when humans are first thought to have appeared (-3100 - clearly the Keep must be a mistype) to when the elves noticed the quickening (-2850). In fact they must have been aware fairly quickly that something was different about them because of groups like Abelas dropping into uthenera to avoid aging.

The Veil definitely wasn't created back before the dwarves were discovered because Mythal was still around and in good health at that time.    Andruil is also said to have got tired hunting mortals, which suggests she was hunting humans, again before the Veil was raised.    It is also likely that Andruil hunting in the Void may have been what started the problems that led to Mythal's murder.  

So why are you so convinced that the Veil was created long before humans arrived?

Anyone in contact with whoever wrote the entries for the Keep, so perhaps can get clarification from them?

Of course things may be clarified in next game but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that humans records are as flawed as Dalish ones. I certainly wouldn't go by anything the Chantry claims. According to the Chant we went from happy spirits standing around praising the Maker to material world, with Veil and humans, with envious demons watching across the Veil and causing trouble. A great chunk of Thedas history is just nowhere to be found in the Chant. Namely the whole history of the Evanuris, the elvhen, the Titans, the dwarves, etc. Some 4,500 years of pre-human history to be precise.

Vivienne is from southern Thedas. The oldest civilisation is Tevinter. If the truth is to be found anywhere, it is in their archives. So the fact that Vivienne's knowledge of a time before the Veil is deficient proves nothing. Tevinter tried to cover up how much they owed to what they scavenged from the elves. They had their own myth of superiority to maintain, so their ancestors may have omitted certain details from history. Furthermore if humans did not possess magic pre-Veil, then they would not have been aware of anything being different when it was rasied.

It was definitely heavily hinted in the Descent that the Shaparate are not as reliable keepers of history as we had been led to believe. They had been shown to have altered records in recent history. Why not in the past? The first dwarf contact was 1,500 years before the arrival of humans. There is no way that the Veil could have been raised before this and then the elves survived without aging until the arrival of humans.

The problem in all our interpretations of events is that previously elven legends were just that; something that they asserted but could not be proved. Now we have been provided with all sorts of corroboration of what the Dalish have maintained. Their gods were "real", even if you deny they were really gods. They did have a powerful magical empire. All elves were possessed of magic (but probably varied in ability). All elves were ageless (immortal as in long lived not unkillable). In addition, we have been told existed in a time when there was no Veil and the inhabitants of the two states of reality (the Waking World and the Beyond) could pass freely physically between the two, or at the very least spirits could pass freely into the material world.

The only thing the Dalish got wrong about their history was blaming humans for their misfortunes. This seems likely down to the fact that modern elves never experienced the pre-Veil world. The ancient ancestors seemed content to let them care for them whilst in Uthenera without informing them of everything that occurred. No doubt they encouraged them to keep away from humans because they didn't want to be disturbed. It would seem that the majority of settlements were probably founded by the priesthood of the Evanuris, hence all the negative history of Fen'Harel and the positive history of the Creators. Then with the fall of the city in Arlathan Forest, the elves had a definite memory of human aggression to relate to, even though it would seem that in fact Tevinter was only responding to aggression shown by the elves, likely much like the response of those in the Arbor Wilds to intruders. Then Imperium apparently did nothing to dissuade the elves from this view and were at pains to wipe out the language, religion and culture. So this is why the Dalish memory of events has humans as the villains. This does not mean that humans were not around pre-Veil. The Dalish weren't aware of the Veil being created either. They mention how their ancestors viewed humans as little more than vermin. That seems in keeping with the pre-Veil Evanuris and their followers. It makes more sense that humans arrived, elves didn't pay them much mind other than as pests, then Solas raised the Veil and this had the effect of aging them and possibly making them more vulnerable to disease (which may well have come from humans). So the blame just got wrongly apportioned, due to subsequent historical events. You could just as easily ask why the humans were blamed for the destruction of the elven empire, when clearly that was down to Fen'Harel as well. Abelas was well aware of what happened. The memories of the elves in the Library show they were fully aware of who was to blame. Yet the story that came down to the Dalish was that humans were responsible

In some ways, the writers make inhabitants of Thedas seem ignorant about their history because they don't want to reveal plot lines too soon. An excellent example is the history of Ameridan. The Chantry may have wiped him from history but we learn that his own clan has constantly maintained he was one of their own. Thus his name should be known among the Dalish, but a Dalish Inquisitor is as much in ignorance as other races. In DAO the name of Shartan isn't even mentioned in our clan's stories and is not revealed until we speak to a Chantry sister in Denerim or travel to Haven. Yet in DAI, Gisharel is quoted as teaching that Andraste called Shartan brother, so it is clear he is still spoken of by the Dalish, if nothing else to emphasise the treachery of humans.

The original purpose of my post was to discuss the mosaics.   The dwarf clearly tells us that they have been altered.    PW confirmed in one of his interviews that a lot of statues and pictures in Tevinter were altered to make them appear as though they related to human history and gods, when in fact they pre-dated their civilisation and they had just re-purposed them to fit with their own legends.   This is what I am getting at.     The only one where the relation of humans to the Veil is relevant is Freed are the Slaves.   The title and the picture itself would make no sense in relation to the Qunari, since they are too recent.    It could just be a period of ancient Tevinter and if all the other mosaics are from the same period, then that would be true.    However, the Fall and the Archdemon don't really seem to fit the interpretation given them.  (See my explanation above).    Which is why I tried pushing them further back in history to the time of the Evanuris.    So ignoring the problems with the Veil, what do you think?