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Post by lilyenachaos on Nov 13, 2016 15:07:30 GMT
Sera's romance was one of only 2 that could end in marriage though. She wasn't my favorite character, but I still think the romance is sweet. I loved Dorian, but his personal story was...yeah. What it was. I like thinking positive until proven wrong.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 13, 2016 17:59:27 GMT
Why are you talking about Kaidan like he is a human being with actual thoughts? He's a fully scripted NPC. Bioware people decided what he does and doesn't do. And they decided not to make Kaidan bisexual in ME1. I guess because either they didn't think there was a big enough demand worth investing money into or because they feared a homophobic backlash. Whyever FemShep+Liara and other lesbian content was feasible I do not know. This is a role playing game. We role play motivations. Not much of a stretch. As far as FemShep/Liara and FemShep/Kelly, well, because lesbians have always been more palatable to the public than gay men - that is, they can factor in to a straight man's fantasies.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 13, 2016 18:39:24 GMT
Why are you talking about Kaidan like he is a human being with actual thoughts? He's a fully scripted NPC. Bioware people decided what he does and doesn't do. And they decided not to make Kaidan bisexual in ME1. I guess because either they didn't think there was a big enough demand worth investing money into or because they feared a homophobic backlash. Whyever FemShep+Liara and other lesbian content was feasible I do not know. This is a role playing game. We role play motivations. Not much of a stretch. As far as FemShep/Liara and FemShep/Kelly, well, because lesbians have always been more palatable to the public than gay men - that is, they can factor in to a straight man's fantasies. True. And disappointing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 13, 2016 21:53:04 GMT
You cannot really say that gay romances are written better than heterosexual ones based off bisexual romances that have virtually the same dialogue whichever gender you play. From what I know of the Kaiden gay romance, there seems less content than with a female Shepard. It also comes somewhat out of the blue in ME3, having been given no indication of it earlier; which made his declaration to my non-gay Shepard somewhat awkward considering he looked upon Kaiden as a good friend but nothing more and then felt bad about having to turn him down. What I would say is that lesbian romances did seem to get more explicit content than gay ones and I wonder if that does have something to do with male fantasies.
It will be interesting to see if the romances in Andromeda are bisexual or you have specific heterosexual and gay characters as with DAI.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 14, 2016 2:32:41 GMT
Sera's romance was one of only 2 that could end in marriage though. Unfortunately there appears to be 0 options for that in MEA according to Mac Walters, or at least none that are "traditional". I hope in future ME, DA, and secret IP games have more options for that. And for both sexes, instead of every time so far being for females only.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 4:40:56 GMT
Sera's romance was one of only 2 that could end in marriage though. Unfortunately there appears to be 0 options for that in MEA according to Mac Walters, or at least none that are traditional. I hope in future ME, DA, and secret IP games have more options for that. And for both sexes, instead of every time so far being for females only. Warden and Anora was the one exception, true, that was not romance (nor gay)...
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Post by lothar on Nov 14, 2016 7:27:14 GMT
Bioware decided to change the galaxy but keep certain thing. We saw it in the 4k demo and again in the trailer. Just like in the trilogy female characters are sexualized. Their skintight suits show off their butts. The male bodies are obscured by armor. That doesn't happen by accident. It's intentionally designed this way. I means Andromeda once again focusses on the straight male player demographic. In Inquisition we had women in full armor, no boob plate. Women were in powerful positions like head of Chantry or Empress. Josephine and Vivienne were clearly not white. And in this effort of equality and diversity Dorian and Sera got more or less the same treatment as any LI. In the straight male focussed ME trilogy of course 2 games had no gay characters whatsoever. You can clearly see how Cortez was low budget, low priority compared to Ahsley and Liara the LIs for the main target demographic straight male players. ME3 treated gay romances like a stepchild. I know this is obviously not evidence that gay and lesbian romances will be worse than straight ones in Andromeda but at least to me the sexualization of female characters is not a good sign. This is true, but the situation seems better than before, and the direction seems good; maybe I'm, too naive, but I see some positive change. No, not Dorian with his stereotypical backstory and behaviors, and also the annoying Sera, true, so many people loves this two characters, but obviously not my favorites.... Yes, the most of gay/bisexual character are promiscuous (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull etc), stereotypical (Dorian) or have lame solution (as Alenko...), but some of them really well written and lovable (I like Zevran's, Isabela's and Iron Bull's character as well, and Anders, Fenris and Alenko are my favorite romances), but yes, not better than the other, straight characters/romances. Except Anders who clearly better with male, true, his romance according to the authors intention: sad, as I see. I think, no need to be pessimistic forecast. We'll see. And then we'll happy, disappointed or angry... Yes, the sexualization is an existing problem, but much more extensive, than that here we can analyze, not to mention the racial problems. I think we should not go into this. What I meant twas the money, specifically the animations for romances. They're made for a one-time use. According to Karin Weekes they're quite expensive. Bioware doesn't want them to look like two dolls banging together. From what I've seen of the other romances in Inquisition, Dorian has gotten unique animations as much as the other LIs. Remember that Bull wasn't supposed to be available to Dwarves originally, because fitting the animations compared to the amount of players playing as Dwarves was not seen as worth it? One dev made it in his spare time. He said if he had known before how much work it was going to be he wouldn't have done it. I'm sure some Andromeda lead has spoken about this already. About how they will leave it up to people's imagination. That's one way to allow a bigger amount of relationships they talked about. Just cut out those time intensive animations. Why are you talking about Kaidan like he is a human being with actual thoughts? He's a fully scripted NPC. Bioware people decided what he does and doesn't do. And they decided not to make Kaidan bisexual in ME1. I guess because either they didn't think there was a big enough demand worth investing money into or because they feared a homophobic backlash. Whyever FemShep+Liara and other lesbian content was feasible I do not know. This is a role playing game. We role play motivations. Not much of a stretch. As far as FemShep/Liara and FemShep/Kelly, well, because lesbians have always been more palatable to the public than gay men - that is, they can factor in to a straight man's fantasies. Is that not just sex fantasies? I didn't know straight were interested in a romantic relationship between women as well.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 10:58:16 GMT
This is true, but the situation seems better than before, and the direction seems good; maybe I'm, too naive, but I see some positive change. No, not Dorian with his stereotypical backstory and behaviors, and also the annoying Sera, true, so many people loves this two characters, but obviously not my favorites.... Yes, the most of gay/bisexual character are promiscuous (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull etc), stereotypical (Dorian) or have lame solution (as Alenko...), but some of them really well written and lovable (I like Zevran's, Isabela's and Iron Bull's character as well, and Anders, Fenris and Alenko are my favorite romances), but yes, not better than the other, straight characters/romances. Except Anders who clearly better with male, true, his romance according to the authors intention: sad, as I see. I think, no need to be pessimistic forecast. We'll see. And then we'll happy, disappointed or angry... Yes, the sexualization is an existing problem, but much more extensive, than that here we can analyze, not to mention the racial problems. I think we should not go into this. What I meant twas the money, specifically the animations for romances. They're made for a one-time use. According to Karin Weekes they're quite expensive. Bioware doesn't want them to look like two dolls banging together. From what I've seen of the other romances in Inquisition, Dorian has gotten unique animations as much as the other LIs. Remember that Bull wasn't supposed to be available to Dwarves originally, because fitting the animations compared to the amount of players playing as Dwarves was not seen as worth it? One dev made it in his spare time. He said if he had known before how much work it was going to be he wouldn't have done it. I'm sure some Andromeda lead has spoken about this already. About how they will leave it up to people's imagination. That's one way to allow a bigger amount of relationships they talked about. Just cut out those time intensive animations. This is a role playing game. We role play motivations. Not much of a stretch. As far as FemShep/Liara and FemShep/Kelly, well, because lesbians have always been more palatable to the public than gay men - that is, they can factor in to a straight man's fantasies. Is that not just sex fantasies? I didn't know straight were interested in a romantic relationship between women as well. As I heard, they want more romance than before (in DAI was 8.). I afraid, they can't manage that, and I now not speak (only) about the animation, rather the backstory... this is not porn, so, if they have not enough time, I think better if they entrust the imagination, instead of lame solutions. I think, the most people have romantic and sexual fantasies.
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Post by lothar on Nov 14, 2016 19:43:35 GMT
As I heard, they want more romance than before (in DAI was 8.). I afraid, they can't manage that, and I now not speak (only) about the animation, rather the backstory... this is not porn, so, if they have not enough time, I think better if they entrust the imagination, instead of lame solutions. I think, the most people have romantic and sexual fantasies. Well, Walters said it's characters over everything when it comes to writing. Depending on how long this game has been in development there may have been enough time for more romances. I wonder how those LIs will be split among sexes. I dare guess it won't be a like Inquisition where female Inqusitors had more choice. ME3 was quite, um, 'economical.' FemShep could end up with no man left to love. ManShep had at least Liara and Dianna Allers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 19:50:32 GMT
I am glad you've liked the romance with Kaiden. But the taste in romances is very individual. So, for me, the best romance in the ME series is a straight romance between the female PC and Thane. Which does not really say anything other than I've really dug it....
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 14, 2016 22:19:55 GMT
This is true, but the situation seems better than before, and the direction seems good; maybe I'm, too naive, but I see some positive change. No, not Dorian with his stereotypical backstory and behaviors, and also the annoying Sera, true, so many people loves this two characters, but obviously not my favorites.... Yes, the most of gay/bisexual character are promiscuous (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull etc), stereotypical (Dorian) or have lame solution (as Alenko...), but some of them really well written and lovable (I like Zevran's, Isabela's and Iron Bull's character as well, and Anders, Fenris and Alenko are my favorite romances), but yes, not better than the other, straight characters/romances. Except Anders who clearly better with male, true, his romance according to the authors intention: sad, as I see. I think, no need to be pessimistic forecast. We'll see. And then we'll happy, disappointed or angry... Yes, the sexualization is an existing problem, but much more extensive, than that here we can analyze, not to mention the racial problems. I think we should not go into this. Dorian was fine but there's a reason I have a preference for Kaidan and Male Shepard over any other BioWare gay characters. Those two are more like me than the rest. They're not stereotypical in any way. There's nothing wrong with stereotypes. Those all come from somewhere. I live in NYC and I see plenty of it. However, I love the idea of seeing characters that are more similar to me in behavior. That's Kaidan and Male Shepard. It's not Dorian, Iron Bull, Anders or Zevran. I don't know with Fenris since I romanced Anders. Male Hawke also fits the non-stereotypical role but I don't think he's gets to have a male partner who is like him. That makes Shepard and Kaidan the ones I most want to see. This is not a knock against the stereotypical gay male character. I'm 100% that guys who fit that stereotype also play RPG games and deserve to be represented. I just don't see a lot of MY kind of gay guy represented in games or television and it's nice to see.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 14, 2016 23:45:13 GMT
I am glad you've liked the romance with Kaiden. But the taste in romances is very individual. So, for me, the best romance in the ME series is a straight romance between the female PC and Thane. Which does not really say anything other than I've really dug it.... I kind of agree with this (the concept not the specific romance). Deciding which romance is 'best' is so subjective and impacted by our own preferences. There would be few of us in a position to be able to objectively assess comparative romance writing, you just need to look at the different romance threads and how feelings run high in them, to see how these things are viewed differently by different people.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 15, 2016 0:29:00 GMT
As I heard, they want more romance than before (in DAI was 8.). I afraid, they can't manage that, and I now not speak (only) about the animation, rather the backstory... this is not porn, so, if they have not enough time, I think better if they entrust the imagination, instead of lame solutions. I think, the most people have romantic and sexual fantasies. Well, Walters said it's characters over everything when it comes to writing. Depending on how long this game has been in development there may have been enough time for more romances. I wonder how those LIs will be split among sexes. I dare guess it won't be a like Inquisition where female Inqusitors had more choice. ME3 was quite, um, 'economical.' FemShep could end up with no man left to love. ManShep had at least Liara and Dianna Allers. I'm hoping it will be split as evenly as it can be, so since there has to be at least 9 to be the most like Mac Walters said it would be 2/4/2 with 1 being and extra. That would give straight men, straight women, gay men, and gay women 3 options each or 4 if the extra is available to them.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2016 18:04:07 GMT
This is true, but the situation seems better than before, and the direction seems good; maybe I'm, too naive, but I see some positive change. No, not Dorian with his stereotypical backstory and behaviors, and also the annoying Sera, true, so many people loves this two characters, but obviously not my favorites.... Yes, the most of gay/bisexual character are promiscuous (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull etc), stereotypical (Dorian) or have lame solution (as Alenko...), but some of them really well written and lovable (I like Zevran's, Isabela's and Iron Bull's character as well, and Anders, Fenris and Alenko are my favorite romances), but yes, not better than the other, straight characters/romances. Except Anders who clearly better with male, true, his romance according to the authors intention: sad, as I see. I think, no need to be pessimistic forecast. We'll see. And then we'll happy, disappointed or angry... Yes, the sexualization is an existing problem, but much more extensive, than that here we can analyze, not to mention the racial problems. I think we should not go into this. Dorian was fine but there's a reason I have a preference for Kaidan and Male Shepard over any other BioWare gay characters. Those two are more like me than the rest. They're not stereotypical in any way. There's nothing wrong with stereotypes. Those all come from somewhere. I live in NYC and I see plenty of it. However, I love the idea of seeing characters that are more similar to me in behavior. That's Kaidan and Male Shepard. It's not Dorian, Iron Bull, Anders or Zevran. I don't know with Fenris since I romanced Anders. Male Hawke also fits the non-stereotypical role but I don't think he's gets to have a male partner who is like him. That makes Shepard and Kaidan the ones I most want to see. This is not a knock against the stereotypical gay male character. I'm 100% that guys who fit that stereotype also play RPG games and deserve to be represented. I just don't see a lot of MY kind of gay guy represented in games or television and it's nice to see. Maybe my reason similar, why I like for example Anders/Fenris and Hawke's romance. They are extreme characters, but if you take away the extremes, each have a trait, which makes me easy to identify with them. I can identify with Anders' sense of justice, and anger, with Fenris' sudden anger, and how he want to free from it, and try to be objective, and with Hawke's protective nature. A bit harder to me to indentify with Shepard: the paragon path too lawful heroic for my taste, but the renegade sometimes too cruel, sometimes clearly wrong (if I need to chose, I prefer paragon). But yes, I agree with you: Shepard and Alenko's love so "normal" and sweet. And I simply love Alenko's nature.
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Post by fenris on Nov 16, 2016 10:23:32 GMT
As for Keidan's ME1 romance - there WERE several unique lines that weren't available for the femshep romance. The reason I know this is that if a line wasn't available for the gay romance, they used femshep's lines instead, but there were several places where I had a dialogue option and the subtitles showed, but there was no sound because those lines weren't recorded in the straight romance either. This means that the gay romance had indeed some more content than the straight romance (or at least, that's how I take it).
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 16, 2016 14:07:30 GMT
Nah, it's a subjective thing, OP. I found funny how you mentioned Kaidan in ME3, but anyways, this is clearly some bait.
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aoibhealfae
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The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 16, 2016 15:30:13 GMT
I thought the mod simply put MaleShep into FemShep's registered flags. Technically, you are playing as FemShep and it is her deleted dialogues that you found unvoiced. There's a lot of it in ME3 and some are voiced as well.
But if it makes you happy playing it. Go for it.
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Post by fenris on Nov 16, 2016 16:55:28 GMT
I don't know, I read somewhere that the gay romance script was in the game that shipped out, so I assumed that was the case
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The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 16, 2016 18:16:08 GMT
Lukas Kristjanson didn't write ME1 Kaidan to be available to MaleShep as romance and Raphael Sbarge never voice romance content for MaleShep until ME3. Its not because Bioware being evil and cut an already written romance out from the game. Its just never there from the start. It was a matter of technicality that Meer voiced most FemShep's dialogues in ME1 (he beta tested the game for years during the development since Baldur Gate and if you noticed it, he voiced a lot of aliens exclusively). Mark Meer actually did voice some romance lines for Thane (it exist but can't remember where I find it) and a bit about Garrus as well. I guess ME2 LIs were meant to be bisexuals as DA2's before they scrapped it all.
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Post by Neria on Nov 17, 2016 0:58:08 GMT
I've noticed something in Bioware games: the gay romances are usually much better written than the heterosexual ones. In ME3, the Kaiden romance is, IMHO, by far better than the others. In DAI we had Dragon Bull with the most hilarious scene in the game, and in DA2 we had Fenris' bisexual romance which was incredible. Do you agree with me? Nope . And I'll assume you're talking only about male LIs. The following is purely my opinion: Alistair > Zevran in general. Anders/FHawke > Fenris/FHawke > every other pairing (although I do like watching Fenris/MHawke) Solas >>>>>> everyone else. Garrus >>>(infinite "greater than" signs)>>> everyone else.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2016 1:07:30 GMT
I've noticed something in Bioware games: the gay romances are usually much better written than the heterosexual ones. In ME3, the Kaiden romance is, IMHO, by far better than the others. In DAI we had Dragon Bull with the most hilarious scene in the game, and in DA2 we had Fenris' bisexual romance which was incredible. Do you agree with me? Nope . And I'll assume you're talking only about male LIs. The following is purely my opinion: Alistair > Zevran in general. Anders/FHawke > Fenris/FHawke > every other pairing (although I do like watching Fenris/MHawke) Solas >>>>>> everyone else. Garrus >>>(infinite "greater than" signs)>>> everyone else. One romance what really better written for gay male protagonist is Anders–Hawke.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 17, 2016 2:20:21 GMT
Nope . And I'll assume you're talking only about male LIs. The following is purely my opinion: Alistair > Zevran in general. Anders/FHawke > Fenris/FHawke > every other pairing (although I do like watching Fenris/MHawke) Solas >>>>>> everyone else. Garrus >>>(infinite "greater than" signs)>>> everyone else. One romance what really better written for gay male protagonist is Anders–Hawke. I think the thing that prevented me from truly loving the Anders/MHawke relationship was the ending. I hated it. I can't help it that I what my lovers to stay together forever. It's just how I'm wired. Now, if my Male Warden could have romanced Alistair...
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2016 2:27:08 GMT
One romance what really better written for gay male protagonist is Anders–Hawke. I think the thing that prevented me from truly loving the Anders/MHawke relationship was the ending. I hated it. I can't help it that I what my lovers to stay together forever. It's just how I'm wired. Now, if my Male Warden could have romanced Alistair... My Hawke(s) stay together with him (and Justice, ofc...), I never left Hawke in the Fade, I have Loghain and Stroud for this role. (poor Stroud, deserves better!) Anders and Hawke in my scenario live happily as fugitive, until they dies. This is a happy rebel love. I'm so romantic!
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dmc1001
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 17, 2016 2:43:20 GMT
I think the thing that prevented me from truly loving the Anders/MHawke relationship was the ending. I hated it. I can't help it that I what my lovers to stay together forever. It's just how I'm wired. Now, if my Male Warden could have romanced Alistair... My Hawke(s) stay together with him (and Justice, ofc...), I never left Hawke in the Fade, I have Loghain and Stroud for this role. (poor Stroud, deserves better!) Anders and Hawke in my scenario live happily as fugitive, until they dies. This is a happy rebel love. I'm so romantic! I guess I didn't see the option. Hawke didn't seem to know where Anders was in DA:I. And then I accidentally (and I really mean that!) left Hawke in the fade! But I don't remember a DA2 scenario where Hawke gets to be with Anders at the end. Then again, I haven't played as much DA as I have ME - not by a long shot. Always been more sci-fi oriented over fantasy.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 17, 2016 2:57:12 GMT
My Hawke(s) stay together with him (and Justice, ofc...), I never left Hawke in the Fade, I have Loghain and Stroud for this role. (poor Stroud, deserves better!) Anders and Hawke in my scenario live happily as fugitive, until they dies. This is a happy rebel love. I'm so romantic! I guess I didn't see the option. Hawke didn't seem to know where Anders was in DA:I. And then I accidentally (and I really mean that!) left Hawke in the fade! But I don't remember a DA2 scenario where Hawke gets to be with Anders at the end. Then again, I haven't played as much DA as I have ME - not by a long shot. Always been more sci-fi oriented over fantasy. Your Hawke killed him at the end of DA2, or Anders leave Hawke, because Hawke sided with Templars? In the Inquisition Hawke spoke about Anders. Not so much, but mention that he and Anders went from Circle to Circle, and helped the mages in the rebellion, or if Hawke killed him, then Hawke say, that Anders was crazy. (I played more with DA tha ME) But no matter, happy end or sad, Anders' gay love was better written, than straight – as I see. But I think, this is the one gay romance, from which we can say: better written than the straight.
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