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Post by Amburu on Aug 4, 2016 22:28:24 GMT
3. Finally, I think he might've been just tired. It seemed he had been wandering in the waking world and acting as an agent for many years. That has got to take a tall on you and make you a little bitter. Not that he wanted to die, but he might've thought he's just tired of fighting. If Solas says he's tired of fighting, and Solas has been in the Fade most of the time, imagine how it must feel for an agent that is in the waking world and does the dirty work. (I wonder if the agents have some rotation system - you serve for a few decades, then someone replaces you and you go into uthenera for a while to rest, and also so that nobody finds it suspicious that the same guy has been hanging around for 100 years and doesn't seem all that aged.) I have a very external point of view on the whole thing, I only know him from what everyone says + wiki + random internet stuff, and I assumed it could very well be exhaustion Because exhausted I would be omg
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 4, 2016 22:32:57 GMT
I also like to imagine that they were friends but even if they only worked together they obviously had known each other for a long time. He seemed to know very well what was going to happen and even if he hesitated I don't think he regretted his decision. I just wonder why did he allow it to happen? Since he believed this world was worth saving why didn't he fight Solas instead of surrendering? Ahhhh OMG - this is THE question that's been on my mind for a while. Why not go rogue and work against Solas' plan? There are a few reasons I can think of, and probably a lot more: 1. I think part of him thought he deserved to die for his betrayal. He must've felt very guilty. Remember his nostalgia when he was telling Michel about the days of the ancient elven empire. I think Felassan loved his people just as much as Solas did. It was not an easy decision for him to give up on working to restore them. I really wish we could have seen some of that inner conflict in the book, his thoughts when he struggles with his choice. 2. He seemed to really look up to Solas, as well as fear him. So maybe he thought he couldn't fight Solas, that there would be no way he could win, or that he couldn't stand the thought of going against his friend. 3. Finally, I think he might've been just tired. It seemed he had been wandering in the waking world and acting as an agent for many years. That has got to take a tall on you and make you a little bitter. Not that he wanted to die, but he might've thought he's just tired of fighting. If Solas says he's tired of fighting, and Solas has been in the Fade most of the time, imagine how it must feel for an agent that is in the waking world and does the dirty work. (I wonder if the agents have some rotation system - you serve for a few decades, then someone replaces you and you go into uthenera for a while to rest, and also so that nobody finds it suspicious that the same guy has been hanging around for 100 years and doesn't seem all that aged.) I agree he had been loyal to Solas for so long and must really have struggled with his decision, even if he knew it was the right thing to do. So even if he did betray Solas, he might still not have been willing to fight against him. Maybe he felt guilty and like you said, felt that he deserved to die, or that he owed Solas and his honor forbid him from going against him. Other reason could be that since Solas is a dreamer he can kill sleeping people in their dreams. So this would make it impossible for Felassan to hide from him. No one can stay awake infinitely so maybe he felt it was only inevitable. I've also wondered a lot about that final scene between Felassan and Briala... who knows, maybe he did have some kind of consistency plan, after all.
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Post by drosophila on Aug 4, 2016 22:55:08 GMT
I agree he had been loyal to Solas for so long and must really have struggled with his decision, even if he knew it was the right thing to do. So even if he did betray Solas, he might still not have been willing to fight against him. Maybe he felt guilty and like you said, felt that he deserved to die, or that he owed Solas and his honor forbid him from going against him. Other reason could be that since Solas is a dreamer he can kill sleeping people in their dreams. So this would make it impossible for Felassan to hide from him. No one can stay awake infinitely so maybe he felt it was only inevitable. I've also wondered a lot about that final scene between Felassan and Briala... who knows, maybe he did have some kind of consistency plan, after all. He had those herbs that could prevent him from sleeping. I have no idea if an ancient elf needs to sleep - when he was thinking whether to run or not, it seemed like he thought that could work at least for a while. But not indefinitely. So it's totally possible he didn't think he'd have enough time and that he would only be putting off the inevitable. And his last scene with Briala - so many feelings! He said: "...the elves of Orlais are in good hands. Many other things are not, and I have more work to do elsewhere." Maybe he was trying to spare her feelings, but maybe he indeed has some backup plan that he hopes might work somehow!
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Aug 4, 2016 23:17:06 GMT
He had those herbs that could prevent him from sleeping. I have no idea if an ancient elf needs to sleep - when he was thinking whether to run or not, it seemed like he thought that could work at least for a while. But not indefinitely. So it's totally possible he didn't think he'd have enough time and that he would only be putting off the inevitable. And his last scene with Briala - so many feelings! He said: "...the elves of Orlais are in good hands. Many other things are not, and I have more work to do elsewhere." Maybe he was trying to spare her feelings, but maybe he indeed has some backup plan that he hopes might work somehow! My last, tiny, hope rests on something Solas said in Trespasser - "the first of my people do not die so easily". This most likely refers only to the Evanuris, but what if the "first" wasn't just the Evanuris but perhaps elves who had a high standing in general or was very proficient with magic? *waves Team-Optimism flag*
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Post by drosophila on Aug 4, 2016 23:30:48 GMT
My last, tiny, hope rests on something Solas said in Trespasser - "the first of my people do not die so easily". This most likely refers only to the Evanuris, but what if the "first" wasn't just the Evanuris but perhaps elves who had a high standing in general or was very proficient with magic? *waves Team-Optimism flag* Yes! I'm all for a Felassan wisp frolicking out there somewhere. It's fascinating to think how death would change him. How much of him would be lost? Would it make him bitter and vengeful like Mythal? Would it make him want to live more in the moment and be more Zen about the world? Would he still like Solas? My craziest theory of all is that this creature in The Tiniest Cave quest - the one where you get the flower crown - is actually the wisp of Felassan. The things he says just fit very well with the possibility of having served under Solas and having been punished for something. There is also the possibility that if Felassan's soul does not survive, a spirit could be drawn to scene of his death, and spirit could take on Felassan's shape and memories. That's what happened to the original Cole and the bog unicorn. How much that spirit would be like the real Felassan and whether that is really him surviving is another question though. *wipes tears and waves optimism flag high*
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 23:59:39 GMT
Best elf thread for the win. I hope at the very least his sacrifice is acknowledged in a more robust manner in DA4. Solas' little quip about his agent failing was not nearly enough.
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Post by drosophila on Aug 5, 2016 0:29:35 GMT
I hope at the very least his sacrifice is acknowledged in a more robust manner in DA4. Solas' little quip about his agent failing was not nearly enough. I love how if Iron Bull betrays the Inquisitor, Solas makes a snarky comment about Inky's leadership. But when his own agent betrays him, he's like, "My agent failed at the task..." End of discussion. Oh Solas. He probably does blame himself for it though.
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Post by Delphine on Aug 5, 2016 0:42:07 GMT
#Nevah4getGodlassan
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Post by Retro-bit Miss on Aug 5, 2016 0:55:59 GMT
I still find myself wondering if he's truly dead or just "dead in the Fade" and walking about Tranquil somewhere to be a plot mcguffin for DA4. I wonder that myself too and hope beyond hope 😓 He's defiantly wandering around when I dream though.... 😳😂
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Post by drosophila on Aug 5, 2016 1:09:16 GMT
I so wish I could dream about him. Meet him in a dream and hang out. I don't have vivid dreams though, and I've never had a dream about him, even though I think about him 90% of the time while awake.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 5, 2016 10:37:19 GMT
It is hard to know what is the case with ancient elf spirits. May be he did just return to the Fade and reform but without his memories. However, Solas' spirit friend had never spent much time outside the Fade, except forcibly summoned and then transformed into a pride demon, so she would not have had much incentive to retain the memories she had from the material world and it may be that a spirit needs these to retain its identity.
So as Felassan had spent at least 20 years walking around since waking from Uthenera and goodness knows how many years prior to the raising of the Veil, he would have had a very strong personal identity to fall back on. Assuming Fen'Harel killing him in the Fade didn't destroy him altogether, it is likely he could have been left a wisp searching for a new body. The text says that when he is preparing to enter the Fade "he calmed his breathing until he found his true self within the shell of his flesh". So it is clear his material body isn't his true self. Solas might even have been aware that he wasn't totally killing him, just his body, thus releasing him to be his true form.
I wouldn't want to get your hopes up too much but it is possible he could turn up again in the future. If he does, I wonder just whose side he will be on?
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Post by lynroy on Aug 5, 2016 12:11:34 GMT
I've heard of him spoken of from the novels and though I never read it, I'd have loved to meet him in game. Kinda the opposite of what happened with Kai Leng. He's in game and I wished he stayed in the novels. READ IT! If only for the Felassan scenes, he is such a treasure. The last scene will break your heart and make you weep for days. ^^This. Felassan was the only reason I finished reading that book. I hated everyone else in it and it just dragged for awhile. Kept reading to find out what weird thing Fel would say next. I will make Solas pay for killing best elf.
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Post by drosophila on Aug 5, 2016 17:31:32 GMT
It is hard to know what is the case with ancient elf spirits. May be he did just return to the Fade and reform but without his memories. However, Solas' spirit friend had never spent much time outside the Fade, except forcibly summoned and then transformed into a pride demon, so she would not have had much incentive to retain the memories she had from the material world and it may be that a spirit needs these to retain its identity. I find this really interesting to think about, as it ties to the question what happens to spirits and people in Thedas when they die (and whether there are any differences between the afterlife of different races of people). Whether Felassan comes back or not, it'd be nice to know exactly what happened to him. So where did the soul of an ancient elf come from and where does it go? My major source of information on the afterlife for elves and spirits is Solas' personal quest When Solas comes back to Skyhold, he says, "I found a quiet spot and went to sleep. I visited the place in the Fade where my friend used to be. It's empty, but there are stirrings of energy in the Void. Someday something new may grow there." Even before I discovered Felassan, the last two sentences always struck me as interesting. To me they suggest that the things that inhabit the Fade, of which we know mainly spirits, arise first from the Void. In addition, the Void must be somehow connected to the Fade. If ancient elves are closely related to spirits, and if ancient elven souls arised from spirits that took physical form, then it follows that ancient elven souls start out in the Void. But what causes the energy in the Void to stir and produce a soul or a spirit? And once life ends, where does it go? The Inquisitor has the option to ask Solas, "What happens when a spirit dies?" He then replies, "It isn't the same as for mortals. The energy of spirits returns to the Fade. If the idea giving the spirit form is strong, or if the memory has shaped other spirits, it may someday rise again." (Emphasis mine.) So upon death, it seems that the energy of the spirit becomes a part of the raw essence of the Fade. Which is somewhat confusing, since the rebirth of the spirit requires a stirring of energy in the Void, not the Fade? I honestly can't think of a good logical way to explain the relationship between Void and Fade, given this sentence. But then Solas explains that two things can cause spirit rebirth: One is that the idea that gave rise to the spirit in the first place is strong. This here is really important I think, because it provides an explanation why Mythal and the other Evanuris cannot easily be killed. It would also explain why they would want to be worshipped as gods. The faith of their followers might be what keeps them alive and ensures they come back even if they're slain. So godhood is desirable as the ultimate immortality - not only do they not age, but they cannot be destroyed by any means, so long as there are some who believe in them. But what if the ancient elf is not a god? Would the same thing apply to someone like Felassan? He is not worshipped, there is one legend about the slow arrow, but it's not really about him. Will the memories and strong emotions of those that are close to him be enough to resurrect him? This might be the second factor to cause a spirit to endure: "...if the memory has shaped other spirits, it may someday rise again." I take that to mean that for an ancient elf, remembering someone important to you might cause you to create a spirit that is similar to the person you once lost. Most likely, though, the spirit will take after YOUR idea of your lost loved one, not the "true" way the person was. There are two lines in banter between Cole and Solas that support this idea. In one attempt to comfort Solas, Cole says, "They are not gone as long as you remember them." I think this is more than just a trite, "they live in your heart" type of statement. In a universe where something like the Fade exists, strong memories can revive the person you've lost. However, it doesn't seem to always happen with certainty, and it probably gets more and more likely the more people remember and cherish the lost person. It's important to note thought, that the spirit/soul that is reborn will be shaped according to the memories of others. In another banter, Cole seems to be trying to soothe Solas regarding the death of a friend. Solas says something very interesting, "If you would remember her, could you do it as I would." Why is it so important to Solas how Cole remembers Solas' friend. I think it's because the nature of the memory will affect the nature of the spirit, should any spirit arise. In addition, gervaise21, you raise a third really interesting possibility - could someone's memories and identity, if they are strong, cause their soul to persist after death? I think it'd be really cool if that were possible. I can't think of snippets from the game that support it, but the mention of Felassan looking for his true self in the shell of his flesh could very well be related to that. If a Dreamer can shape the Fade at will, could a powerful dreamer literally clone their soul in the Fade if they know what their true self is like? Finally, Solas does caution that the reborn spirit will not be like the one that died, and it will probably not remember him. I think this might mean that if a wisp of Felassan, or anyone who have died, were to remain, they will have lost some of themselves. I think a wisp might not only need to regain their body but also their memories and personality, if that is possible.
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Post by Amburu on Aug 5, 2016 19:06:43 GMT
But then Solas explains that two things can cause spirit rebirth: One is that the idea that gave rise to the spirit in the first place is strong. This here is really important I think, because it provides an explanation why Mythal and the other Evanuris cannot easily be killed. It would also explain why they would want to be worshipped as gods. The faith of their followers might be what keeps them alive and ensures they come back even if they're slain. So godhood is desirable as the ultimate immortality - not only do they not age, but they cannot be destroyed by any means, so long as there are some who believe in them. Cole says, "They are not gone as long as you remember them." Ommgggg all this time it was so clear and I never realized !!!! It's important to note thought, that the spirit/soul that is reborn will be shaped according to the memories of others. In another banter, Cole seems to be trying to soothe Solas regarding the death of a friend. Solas says something very interesting, "If you would remember her, could you do it as I would." Why is it so important to Solas how Cole remembers Solas' friend. I think it's because the nature of the memory will affect the nature of the spirit, should any spirit arise. Might be very relevant or total random in translation : In french he said "Could you... If you would remember her, could you do it through my eyes" and I didn't really understand, like, would cole have an influence on solas to let him see her again in lucid dreams ? But at that time I didn't know anything so i hand this over to you if it could be of any relevance. Edit : droso told me they paid extra attention to translations so EVERYTHING MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN CANON THIS WHOLE TIME OMG I'll keep my eyes wide open from now on and report on anything i can spot, I will
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Post by drosophila on Aug 5, 2016 19:40:42 GMT
Might be very relevant or total random in translation : In french he said "Could you... If you would remember her, could you do it through my eyes" and I didn't really understand, like, would cole have an influence on solas to let him see her again in lucid dreams ? But at that time I didn't know anything so i hand this over to you if it could be of any relevance. Edit : droso told me they paid extra attention to translations so EVERYTHING MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN CANON THIS WHOLE TIME OMG I'll keep my eyes wide open from now on and report on anything i can spot, I will LOL, yeah, just posting the video where they mentioned they paid a lot of attention to the translations, to make sure they convey their intended meaning in every culture. It's last year's PAX panel.
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Post by Amburu on Aug 5, 2016 19:59:11 GMT
LOL, yeah, just posting the video where they mentioned they paid a lot of attention to the translations, to make sure they convey their intended meaning in every culture. It's last year's PAX panel. I wish I could like this sentence 800 times It made my day, week, month. Imma be your fr investigator from now on §§§§
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Post by drosophila on Aug 5, 2016 20:04:27 GMT
I wish I could like this sentence 800 times It made my day, week, month. Imma be your fr investigator from now on §§§§ Thanks, falon Currently looking for German videos of Cole/Solas banter... and just watching random German Inquisition videos. Would love to hear anything interesting from the French translation!
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Post by onmanye on Aug 5, 2016 21:09:27 GMT
He then replies, "It isn't the same as for mortals. The energy of spirits returns to the Fade. If the idea giving the spirit form is strong, or if the memory has shaped other spirits, it may someday rise again." (Emphasis mine.) This is why I believe Solas says to a romanced Lavellan, "I will never forget you." Maybe when he destroys the world (so he believes), a spirit will take on the memories of Solas and others' who remember her. Never is a long time, and she impacted the whole of Thedas... so likely this could happen. He also says sometime during the game to Cole that there are few spirits of Wisdom and that Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions. We will never lack for spirits of rage, or hunger, or desire. The world gives plenty to mirror.
So upon death, it seems that the energy of the spirit becomes a part of the raw essence of the Fade. Which is somewhat confusing, since the rebirth of the spirit requires a stirring of energy in the Void, not the Fade? I honestly can't think of a good logical way to explain the relationship between Void and Fade, given this sentence. Perhaps the Void is like that of the Void in Greek mythology. They called it Chaos and it's supposedly the first thing to exist. So maybe, the Void is where all primordial energy in Dragon Age comes from? And spirits are essentially, energy. Also, the Maker was apparently unhappy with his first creation (the spirits), so he sent them to the Fade according to this codex. So maybe spirits start out as energy in the Void (where the energy is still shapeless) and are then created into the Fade once a strong idea has shaped them?
But then Solas explains that two things can cause spirit rebirth: One is that the idea that gave rise to the spirit in the first place is strong. This here is really important I think, because it provides an explanation why Mythal and the other Evanuris cannot easily be killed. It would also explain why they would want to be worshipped as gods. The faith of their followers might be what keeps them alive and ensures they come back even if they're slain. So godhood is desirable as the ultimate immortality - not only do they not age, but they cannot be destroyed by any means, so long as there are some who believe in them. I wholeheartedly agree with this, and I just found this codex about the Temple of Mythal. Pretty interesting that the temples weren't just temples, but whole cities. In the codex it explains that the gods of those temples were being worshipped at all hours of the day and that the time and effort devoted to them must have been staggering.
I take that to mean that for an ancient elf, remembering someone important to you might cause you to create a spirit that is similar to the person you once lost. Most likely, though, the spirit will take after YOUR idea of your lost loved one, not the "true" way the person was. Finally, Solas does caution that the reborn spirit will not be like the one that died, and it will probably not remember him. I think this might mean that if a wisp of Felassan, or anyone who have died, were to remain, they will have lost some of themselves. I think a wisp might not only need to regain their body but also their memories and personality, if that is possible. Related to what you wrote, I believe this is maybe why Mythal is all about vengeance now. She has changed from being all "Mother Protector" (at least that's what it seems like according to Morrigan's dream in the Fade from DAO). Is this because she is a spirit who died and went to the Void, came back to the Fade with a strong impression of vengeance? Then again, maybe she didn't go back to the Void, but she somehow saved a piece of herself like she says in DA2 and just lost a big portion of herself and what remained was her sense of vengeance. I honestly don't think that's all she cares about now, though, either. But that's another story. Felassan could certainly come back as another spirit who wants to take on the shape of him. Solas doesn't explain how strong of an idea it needs to be. Maybe he could save a piece o himself like Mythal did? Whoop whoop!
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Post by Amburu on Aug 5, 2016 21:24:21 GMT
Related to what you wrote, I believe this is maybe why Mythal is all about vengeance now. She has changed from being all "Mother Protector" (at least that's what it seems like according to Morrigan's dream in the Fade from DAO). Is this because she is a spirit who died and went to the Void, came back to the Fade with a strong impression of vengeance? Then again, maybe she didn't go back to the Void, but she somehow saved a piece of herself like she says in DA2 and just lost a big portion of herself and what remained was her sense of vengeance. I honestly don't think that's all she cares about now, though, either. But that's another story. Felassan could certainly come back as another spirit who wants to take on the shape of him. Solas doesn't explain how strong of an idea it needs to be. Maybe he could save a piece o himself like Mythal did? Whoop whoop! DUN DUN DUN after her murder, every single Mythal follower was in intense rage, and among them some super powerful spirits/elvhen like Solas, so that she respawned over very negative feelings as people wanted her to come back but also wanted her to get justice and got corrupted- twisted from justice figure to revenge
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Post by Amburu on Aug 5, 2016 23:22:29 GMT
LOL, yeah, just posting the video where they mentioned they paid a lot of attention to the translations, to make sure they convey their intended meaning in every culture. It's last year's PAX panel. I know double post, the dread wolf is coming to kill meh for my sins, but OMG it's 1am and I'm screaming laughing at this vid aaahhhhhh
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N2
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
Posts: 63 Likes: 220
inherit
329
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220
drosophila
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
63
August 2016
drosophila
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Post by drosophila on Aug 6, 2016 0:11:42 GMT
I know double post, the dread wolf is coming to kill meh for my sins, but OMG it's 1am and I'm screaming laughing at this vid aaahhhhhh Rest, knowing that Fly'harel guards this post and her agents guard the thread! In this thread, you are welcome! If someone tries to kill you for your sins, she will send her agents after them, and the agents will poop in their coffee.
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Amburu
N3
▬ MBLEP MLEMBT ▬
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 253 Likes: 1,025
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66
0
Dec 21, 2018 11:50:15 GMT
1,025
Amburu
▬ MBLEP MLEMBT ▬
253
August 2016
amburu
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Amburu on Aug 6, 2016 0:37:49 GMT
and the agents will poop in their coffee. FORGET ABOUT THE DREADFUL WOLF STUFF, THIS IS WHAT NIGHTMARES ARE MADE OF (Ò 皿 Ó )
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drosophila
N2
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
Posts: 63 Likes: 220
inherit
329
0
220
drosophila
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
63
August 2016
drosophila
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Post by drosophila on Aug 6, 2016 2:36:46 GMT
Hi Slow Arrow folks. I'm in the middle of The Masked Empire. Sure I've had the end spoiled for me, but I'm still enjoying it. I'm definitely in team Tranquil Felassan, AND I hope we get him as a companion in DA4. I've have my fingers crossed for a tranquil companion for ages. Considering the fact that we now know tranquility can be reversed (albeit possibly with dire consequences) you know the personal quest would be fantastic. I can't see Solas ever making anyone Tranquil. That goes against everything he believe in. Perhaps Solas only thinks Felassan is dead (so Cole also believes he is dead), but Solas was actually not strong enough at the time to kill Felassan in the Fade. Or, killing someone in the Fade doesn't work the way it did in the pre-Veil world, so again Solas only thinks Felassan is dead. Maybe. Oooh I wanna heat the Tranquil!Felassan perspective! What will he be like as Tranquil? What will his personal mission be like? Then reversing Tranquility? That would hurt! Poor Felassan!
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Amburu
N3
▬ MBLEP MLEMBT ▬
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 253 Likes: 1,025
inherit
66
0
Dec 21, 2018 11:50:15 GMT
1,025
Amburu
▬ MBLEP MLEMBT ▬
253
August 2016
amburu
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Amburu on Aug 6, 2016 10:53:39 GMT
Blehfzeuoi I believe in the "Solas could never make anyone tranquil ever" but what if he believed firmly Felassan would eventually get it reversed and so it was only a mean to cast him out temporarily without doing """harm""" Idk, still feels wrong (WHAT DOESN'T ANYWAYS) Edit : drosophila 've just reread this and i have to say this is so going nto your direction (you probably still had it in mind but just in case i post it)
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drosophila
N2
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
Posts: 63 Likes: 220
inherit
329
0
220
drosophila
Currently whispering to fly Dreamers from the Vinegar City.
63
August 2016
drosophila
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Post by drosophila on Aug 6, 2016 16:31:32 GMT
Nope Amburu, I did not think of this one! Thanks a whole bunch, dude! I have quite a few posts with lore/ideas I want to reply to, but I'm at the vet with the magister kittens and there's a 40 min wait. I'm only capable of light shitposting on my phone But this is sooo precious, thanks so much!
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