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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 12, 2016 19:59:53 GMT
In addition to what's already been touched on... There has been some recent talk about active dodging/blocks for all classes and I have a feeling there's a reasonable chance they'll make it into the next game. If so, there's opportunity to customize how those abilities work. Eg. blocking/bashing/disarming/etc. and add another layer to help differentiate the Warrior from Rogue. PapaCharlie9 brought up a good point about in-your-face, visceral combat. In DA:O had cinematic finishers like beheadings and stabbing ogres in the head (which I loved), but the game moved away from that. And that really hit home after I played the new Doom. The combat in that game (SP)... is glorious. To the point where it hides a lot of its shortcomings. Now, obviously it's an FPS, but there are lessons in that game Dragon Age could benefit from. - Overall, move the game to a more visceral style of combat. - Let's see that damage on all combatants. If I take a swing at an opponent with a sword, set someone on fire, etc. - let's see the lingering wounds from that. And vice-versa. If I just finished fighting off 100 Qunari and Saarabas, I want to look like I was in that fight. - "Glory Kills". Bring back the cinematic finishers with impact and style. Impale foes on spears, crush them under mauls, slice them open with daggers, cleave people in half with greatswords. Let the limbs fly, the blood dripping from weapons. Make the combat feel less like The Hobbit and more like... 300. - Music. Music sets the tone for combat and great music can dial up the games' intensity. One of the most memorable scenes for me in DAI was the opening cinematic for the assault on Adamant. The music was on point there, and by the time the Inquisitor makes his entrance, I'm ready to go. IMO, that would give a much needed boost to combat in general and warriors in particular. QUOTED FOR ENDORSEMENT! Huge yes to all of that. If the only change to warriors in DA4 was a large variety of warrior-exclusive spectacular finishers, that's all that would be needed to move the needle in the right direction. Mages and rogues can have their own, of course, but the most variety and awesomeness could be reserved for warriors. I also like games where there are so many finishers that it becomes a meta-game to try to see all of them. I could even imagine a Perk that forces each finisher to sequence one after another, so you are guaranteed to see all of them.
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Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 12, 2016 21:09:07 GMT
In addition to what's already been touched on... There has been some recent talk about active dodging/blocks for all classes and I have a feeling there's a reasonable chance they'll make it into the next game. If so, there's opportunity to customize how those abilities work. Eg. blocking/bashing/disarming/etc. and add another layer to help differentiate the Warrior from Rogue. PapaCharlie9 brought up a good point about in-your-face, visceral combat. In DA:O had cinematic finishers like beheadings and stabbing ogres in the head (which I loved), but the game moved away from that. And that really hit home after I played the new Doom. The combat in that game (SP)... is glorious. To the point where it hides a lot of its shortcomings. Now, obviously it's an FPS, but there are lessons in that game Dragon Age could benefit from. - Overall, move the game to a more visceral style of combat. - Let's see that damage on all combatants. If I take a swing at an opponent with a sword, set someone on fire, etc. - let's see the lingering wounds from that. And vice-versa. If I just finished fighting off 100 Qunari and Saarabas, I want to look like I was in that fight. - "Glory Kills". Bring back the cinematic finishers with impact and style. Impale foes on spears, crush them under mauls, slice them open with daggers, cleave people in half with greatswords. Let the limbs fly, the blood dripping from weapons. Make the combat feel less like The Hobbit and more like... 300. - Music. Music sets the tone for combat and great music can dial up the games' intensity. One of the most memorable scenes for me in DAI was the opening cinematic for the assault on Adamant. The music was on point there, and by the time the Inquisitor makes his entrance, I'm ready to go. IMO, that would give a much needed boost to combat in general and warriors in particular. QUOTED FOR ENDORSEMENT! Huge yes to all of that. If the only change to warriors in DA4 was a large variety of warrior-exclusive spectacular finishers, that's all that would be needed to move the needle in the right direction. Mages and rogues can have their own, of course, but the most variety and awesomeness could be reserved for warriors. I also like games where there are so many finishers that it becomes a meta-game to try to see all of them. I could even imagine a Perk that forces each finisher to sequence one after another, so you are guaranteed to see all of them. I know in Doom I did my damnedest to get all the different finishers... But your talk of perks made me think of how systems could tie into "Glory Kills". A warrior could have adrenaline-like abilities so that when they made a Glory Kill, they could recover some stamina/health/etc. Specialists could have their own (improved) abilities. Eg. Reavers could gain health and bonus damage for every Glory Kill, slowly depleting, but adding upon itself with every kill until you become an absolute monster (or bite off more than you can chew and die horribly ). Champion-style warriors might gain... increasing guard or defenses in a similar fashion. Two-Weapon Warriors might gain increasing movement and attack speed, and so on. I think that could be a cool Risk/Reward system...
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Post by Wulfram on Nov 13, 2016 16:53:47 GMT
- Let's see that damage on all combatants. If I take a swing at an opponent with a sword, set someone on fire, etc. - let's see the lingering wounds from that. And vice-versa. If I just finished fighting off 100 Qunari and Saarabas, I want to look like I was in that fight. I don't think that works with RPG combat. People would turn into crispy lumps of unidentifiable flesh before they've lost a quarter of their HP
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 13, 2016 17:13:17 GMT
- Let's see that damage on all combatants. If I take a swing at an opponent with a sword, set someone on fire, etc. - let's see the lingering wounds from that. And vice-versa. If I just finished fighting off 100 Qunari and Saarabas, I want to look like I was in that fight. I don't think that works with RPG combat. People would turn into crispy lumps of unidentifiable flesh before they've lost a quarter of their HP ??? I was going more for "battle damage" - your gear getting progressively dinged up/scorch marked/dirty after fights, weapons red with blood... that sort of thing. If I'm stumbling back to camp with 1 HP, I want to look appropriately messed up. Right now, they've done a great job with making our gear look wet in the rain, and we have some okay-looking blood splatter, but I'm hoping they continue and take that to the next level.
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Post by Wulfram on Nov 13, 2016 17:26:49 GMT
I don't think that works with RPG combat. People would turn into crispy lumps of unidentifiable flesh before they've lost a quarter of their HP ??? I was going more for "battle damage" - your gear getting progressively dinged up/scorch marked/dirty after fights, weapons red with blood... that sort of thing. If I'm stumbling back to camp with 1 HP, I want to look appropriately messed up. Right now, they've done a great job with making our gear look wet in the rain, and we have some okay-looking blood splatter, but I'm hoping they continue and take that to the next level. My point is that realistic damage starts looking silly when you're going through unrealistic amounts of stuff all the time. If my character looks appropriately messed up at 1 HP, what happens when I get healed up again, then knocked down again, then healed, then knocked down then healed again? And am I going to but that that's probably their idea of a good day? Hitpoints work only as an abstraction. Visually depicting them as meat points leads to sillyness.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 13, 2016 17:44:03 GMT
??? I was going more for "battle damage" - your gear getting progressively dinged up/scorch marked/dirty after fights, weapons red with blood... that sort of thing. If I'm stumbling back to camp with 1 HP, I want to look appropriately messed up. Right now, they've done a great job with making our gear look wet in the rain, and we have some okay-looking blood splatter, but I'm hoping they continue and take that to the next level. My point is that realistic damage starts looking silly when you're going through unrealistic amounts of stuff all the time. If my character looks appropriately messed up at 1 HP, what happens when I get healed up again, then knocked down again, then healed, then knocked down then healed again? And am I going to but that that's probably their idea of a good day? Hitpoints work only as an abstraction. Visually depicting them as meat points leads to sillyness. Fair enough, we can certainly agree to disagree on that point. Though in DAI right now, when we get hurt it is reflected in our character icons, just not on our characters themselves. I suspect that might have been due time/budget/priority (we know they had worked on tarnish filters for gear, but never implemented it), but it may have been for reasons like you suggest. Getting hurt and healed over and over is staple of many, many games, not just RPGs. Just think of how many shooters fall into that category... And in Dragon Age, we at least have magic to explain our rapid recovery.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 13, 2016 22:11:00 GMT
Class-specific dialogue options. Right now it just feels like there's the mage class and the non-mage classes story-wise. That said, I do not generally consider myself a Warrior type but I had tons of fun in DAI playing as a Templar (mostly due to a particular combo you could do) and as a Reaver (high risk, high reward). Considering that it's a world and story that centers around fate of magic and magic-wielders in Thedas, I wouldn't say that mage-class and non-mage class division is unwarranted - heck, I'd even say that it's rather expected. Anyway, I always gravitated towards mages and rogues (give me more magical archers!) so I can't tell how much my opinion about DAI warrior class is colored by my personal bias - I've had fun playing Reaver, but not as much fun as playing Tempest and Rift Mage, which are my personal favorites.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 15, 2016 7:29:51 GMT
i fail to see any reason to improve warriors when rogues are the superiour class. i guess maybe give the warrior the ability to dual wield weapons. i mean i get that rogues get dual wielding but it's one thing dual wielding daggers and another to dual wielding swords or maces. it could work.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 16, 2016 18:25:42 GMT
i fail to see any reason to improve warriors when rogues are the superiour class. If you mean superior at combat, that is the reason to improve warriors. Warriors are supposed to be superior at combat, by definition.
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 16, 2016 19:26:18 GMT
I have to agree with Wulfram here — I would not be in favour of "realistic damage" because it would not work well with the current HP system and would strain my suspension of disbelief even further. If you have third-degree burns or a Torn Jugular, a quick stay at camp isn't going to heal that wound. Let's face it, the Injury system in DAO was just silly buggers.
I think we should focus more on interesting things for a Warrior to do rather than entirely re-work the system.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 16, 2016 19:46:13 GMT
Let warriors wield any weapon, with an appropriate class tree for each (sword&board, dual wield, two-handed, and archery).
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 16, 2016 20:17:19 GMT
Let warriors wield any weapon, with an appropriate class tree for each (sword&board, dual wield, two-handed, and archery). Now you're talkin'! Like a Mass Effect Soldier class, all weapons, all the time. Along with this would have to come the ability to switch weapons during combat. Best tool for the immediate tactical problem. Make it so warriors can do this from day 1 intrinsically, and maybe we let rogues do it too, if they buy a skill for it.
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Post by firstenchanter on Nov 16, 2016 22:05:02 GMT
I think all three classes need a more significant breadth of options. Like, bigger, more diverging ability trees (especially for mages, who are reduced to elemental-only stuff+Spirit in DAI).
Somebody mentioned having Warriors bend metal bars. I would go so far as to just have a general Might ability that could let them break down weak walls, bend bars, try to bust through certain doors, push aside heavy barriers, move anchors that have rusted in place, etc.... Like, make it contextually-based instead of having conveniently crumbling walls everywhere.
I'd rather have a full skill system returned though. I wouldn't even mind if it was tied to class. Warriors could have:
Might: Use your strength to break down barriers, bend bars, push aside heavy objects, etc....
Warfare: Apply your knowledge of tactics and fighting through special dialogue options.
And maybe some others, but I can't think of any at the moment. Each class would get some.
And then maybe some general skills for all classes like Coercion, Intimidation, Alchemy and stuff that anybody could take.
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Post by Blaze on Nov 17, 2016 5:38:22 GMT
i fail to see any reason to improve warriors when rogues are the superiour class. If you mean superior at combat, that is the reason to improve warriors. Warriors are supposed to be superior at combat, by definition. no i mean superior by being more fun to play
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Post by Elfen Lied on Nov 17, 2016 15:04:04 GMT
Whatever, just make them fun to play again. It's quite a shame that warriors became so boring to play in DA:I, considering that warrior characters are what I used for my canon playtrough across the three DA games. Therefore my canon DA:I playtrough was also the less fun.
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Post by Ravenfeeder on Nov 17, 2016 15:24:10 GMT
I'd like to see warriors match the name of the class. Be the best at what they do, which is fight. So not only the best at taking damage, but the best overall at giving it out too. I realise that this would mean you'd have to have something else for rogues and mages to do well, but it's all part of taking a role-playing game away from just being about combat (and sex). Yes, I'm an old-school TTRPG player, who thinks CRPG's need to have less combat and more other stuff.
Additionally, I'm totally against putting active dodges or other action-y stuff in my DA. It makes games like Witcher 2/3 basically unplayable for me and I'd like at least one major franchise to stear clear of it.
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Post by PCthug on Nov 18, 2016 0:04:11 GMT
I thought DA:I improved the S+S warrior quite a bit. My first Inquisitor specialized as a Champion, and was often the only character left on the field, hacking away at a dragon till it died. It made playing as a tank enjoyable.
I agree with what others said about 2H, though. I felt pretty fragile through the whole game, which wasn't my experience in DAO or DA2.
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Post by opuspace on Nov 18, 2016 20:40:01 GMT
Others have said this, but I'd prefer different fighting styles to the warrior class than heavy armor and heavy looking weapons. Broadsword, shield and typical weapons like that are so bread and butter that I forget there's other styles, other weapons.
Who says you have to feel like clomping around in a tin can suit? Warriors can be graceful, precise and sleek. Dao blades, rapiers, etc can be used. Make them different from the rogue class by making their skills dependent on their own weapons and personal ability rather than tools like bombs, poisons or throwing knives. What can separate them is the way they go about combat in that they remain the direct route instead of sabotaging and softening enemies up for quick kills.
I wouldn't mind rogues having access to swords either, just keep the abilities poison and stealth based instead of speed and attack based.
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