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Post by Hrungr on Nov 11, 2016 19:38:33 GMT
The greater complexity available- without being required for inexperienced players or players who just want the story etc - the better. While there is certainly a learning curve to the Witchers combat, it is not complex and deep. And going further down that path would erode - in my view - an important difference between the two games. What games are you thinking of as an example of complex and deep RPG combat? On a somewhat related note, I liked that with the Witcher I could change styles of play throughout the game. I started off playing light & nimble, with fast attacks and signs. Later more DPS builds, then finally to a heavy armor, heavy attack, heavy alchemy build. And once you click to the synergy between the systems, you can create some ungodly builds. The problem was, after I was done I felt I'd tried every viable playstyle for Geralt, so there was no incentive to play the game again. And that's fine, I'd enjoyed what I'd played, but it reminded me why I prefer games with multiple races and classes that offer that incentive to replay the game...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 11, 2016 20:07:24 GMT
The greater complexity available- without being required for inexperienced players or players who just want the story etc - the better. While there is certainly a learning curve to the Witchers combat, it is not complex and deep. And going further down that path would erode - in my view - an important difference between the two games. What games are you thinking of as an example of complex and deep RPG combat? On a somewhat related note, I liked that with the Witcher I could change styles of play throughout the game. I started off playing light & nimble, with fast attacks and signs. Later more DPS builds, then finally to a heavy armor, heavy attack, heavy alchemy build. And once you click to the synergy between the systems, you can create some ungodly builds. The problem was, after I was done I felt I'd tried every viable playstyle for Geralt, so there was no incentive to play the game again. And that's fine, I'd enjoyed what I'd played, but it reminded me why I prefer games with multiple races and classes that offer that incentive to replay the game... Origins, for one. I liked that different weapons (melee) did different damage. As mentioned by you, me and pretty much everyone who ever first 2 DA games, access to all abilities. PoE is another example, I know in the end it wasn't for you, personally, but there were so many ways of approaching encounters. But the key thing with those games was, if you're in it for the story, just turn the difficulty down, select all your party members and attack the same enemy and combat is not difficult. They allowed you, if it was your thing, to breeze through combat without getting bogged down by the flood of information available, but if you wanted to dive into that flood, you found there were numerous ways to approach each - or at least, most - encounter. There is a ton of customisation you can do in TW3, but in the end, combat almost always boils down to Quen + Aard/Igni + strike/dodge/roll repeat. I really enjoyed TW3, and its combat was far more enjoyable than TW2, but having watched multiple playthroughs on YT and completed 2 playthroughs myself within another underway, I feel pretty safe in saying combat is fairly one dimensional and relies almost solely on player speed and concentration. Which fits, because Geralt is out there by himself and is not a general. Ultimately, if DA4 has 'more' action combat than DA:I, I'm OK with that, as long as it is still a choice. If I can play DA my preferred way, in overhead cam, pausing to issue orders etc, then we're all good. *caveat* as long as commands I issue work and keep working, rather than my party deciding I don't know what I'm talking about and bring archers into melee range etc.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 11, 2016 20:10:32 GMT
I prefer BioWare should learn from Witcher to introduce fluid animation, choreography of swordplay, block, dodge, and parry all into one to have a dynamic combat system. Me personally I think BioWare are lazy to improve the combat system in Dragon Age anyways, because in Origins it was horrible and they show all the combat moves in the cinematics that it should've been in gameplay. No wonder CDPR kicked their asses. Sad.
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Post by mmoblitz on Nov 11, 2016 21:23:41 GMT
Give me the tactics and combat from DA2 with the environment of DAI and I would be happy. I have never played any DA game using the camera. Too immersion breaking for me. I used the tactics to setup my companions and didn't give them another thought. I don't know if they can actually implement tactics like that with this game engine or not.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 11, 2016 21:55:50 GMT
What games are you thinking of as an example of complex and deep RPG combat? On a somewhat related note, I liked that with the Witcher I could change styles of play throughout the game. I started off playing light & nimble, with fast attacks and signs. Later more DPS builds, then finally to a heavy armor, heavy attack, heavy alchemy build. And once you click to the synergy between the systems, you can create some ungodly builds. The problem was, after I was done I felt I'd tried every viable playstyle for Geralt, so there was no incentive to play the game again. And that's fine, I'd enjoyed what I'd played, but it reminded me why I prefer games with multiple races and classes that offer that incentive to replay the game... Origins, for one. I liked that different weapons (melee) did different damage. As mentioned by you, me and pretty much everyone who ever first 2 DA games, access to all abilities. PoE is another example, I know in the end it wasn't for you, personally, but there were so many ways of approaching encounters. But the key thing with those games was, if you're in it for the story, just turn the difficulty down, select all your party members and attack the same enemy and combat is not difficult. They allowed you, if it was your thing, to breeze through combat without getting bogged down by the flood of information available, but if you wanted to dive into that flood, you found there were numerous ways to approach each - or at least, most - encounter. There is a ton of customisation you can do in TW3, but in the end, combat almost always boils down to Quen + Aard/Igni + strike/dodge/roll repeat. I really enjoyed TW3, and its combat was far more enjoyable than TW2, but having watched multiple playthroughs on YT and completed 2 playthroughs myself within another underway, I feel pretty safe in saying combat is fairly one dimensional and relies almost solely on player speed and concentration. Which fits, because Geralt is out there by himself and is not a general. Ultimately, if DA4 has 'more' action combat than DA:I, I'm OK with that, as long as it is still a choice. If I can play DA my preferred way, in overhead cam, pausing to issue orders etc, then we're all good. *caveat* as long as commands I issue work and keep working, rather than my party deciding I don't know what I'm talking about and bring archers into melee range etc. I kinda wish I liked PoE more, it kinda put me off the BG-style games to the point where even intriguing-sounding ones like Tyranny I'm passing on. But you make a very good point about TW3. No matter how you build your Geralt, you fight largely the same way at level 50 as you do at level 1. I may dodge a little less with my heavy armor/alchemy build, and have a couple of sword tricks, but that's about it. Ciri was the only one who gained very different abilities as she progressed.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 11, 2016 22:17:35 GMT
Dragon Age has always rewarded your knowledge of the systems and how they interact. At the same time, I like variety for the sake of variety. Because we had limited slots in DAI, I tended to focus only on the most broadly applicable powers and efficient strategies. My approach to combat was nearly always the same. The only time I'd bother swapping abilities out would be for boss fights. That's one of the reasons why I liked having "unlimited" slots in DAO. On a whim, I could shake things up with powers I wouldn't normally even look at in a limited slot system. That is indeed the $1 million trade-off. I totally understand the desire to have all of your powers active and available -- in fact, having all abilities available encourages emergent gameplay (creative solutions unforeseen by the devs, by design), which is a game design characteristic I really like. But there's a cost to that flexibility: complexity in the UI and/or friction in the flow of battle. How do you make 23 active abilities available on a console with a controller without impeding the flow of battle? On top of that, by limiting which abilities are active and hotkeyed, some sort of decision has to be made about what the loadout should be. That admits to min/maxing optimization. Players who invest time and effort learning what the best loadout is for a given combat situation are rewarded. Without the limit, no reward for effort, everyone is the same. Perhaps a hybrid is possible? Keep 8 abilities in the super hotkey UI, but make all the rest accessible through some other UI which doesn't require pausing the action. Like instead of a wheel in the middle of the screen that obscures your view, a scrolling list of icons along the bottom or side of the screen that's arranged in a loop, so you can scroll right forever and see all your abilities without having to start over. Perhaps that mode can be tied to automatic auto-attacking so when you enable the mode, your character auto-attacks while you pick the next ability to use. No pausing!
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 11, 2016 23:00:37 GMT
Dragon Age has always rewarded your knowledge of the systems and how they interact. At the same time, I like variety for the sake of variety. Because we had limited slots in DAI, I tended to focus only on the most broadly applicable powers and efficient strategies. My approach to combat was nearly always the same. The only time I'd bother swapping abilities out would be for boss fights. That's one of the reasons why I liked having "unlimited" slots in DAO. On a whim, I could shake things up with powers I wouldn't normally even look at in a limited slot system. That is indeed the $1 million trade-off. I totally understand the desire to have all of your powers active and available -- in fact, having all abilities available encourages emergent gameplay (creative solutions unforeseen by the devs, by design), which is a game design characteristic I really like. But there's a cost to that flexibility: complexity in the UI and/or friction in the flow of battle. How do you make 23 active abilities available on a console with a controller without impeding the flow of battle? On top of that, by limiting which abilities are active and hotkeyed, some sort of decision has to be made about what the loadout should be. That admits to min/maxing optimization. Players who invest time and effort learning what the best loadout is for a given combat situation are rewarded. Without the limit, no reward for effort, everyone is the same. Perhaps a hybrid is possible? Keep 8 abilities in the super hotkey UI, but make all the rest accessible through some other UI which doesn't require pausing the action. Like instead of a wheel in the middle of the screen that obscures your view, a scrolling list of icons along the bottom or side of the screen that's arranged in a loop, so you can scroll right forever and see all your abilities without having to start over. Perhaps that mode can be tied to automatic auto-attacking so when you enable the mode, your character auto-attacks while you pick the next ability to use. No pausing! Hey, this is why you employ those UI guys... to figure this stuff out! Off the top of my head, (and we're talking consoles here, PC would not be an issue) the Ability Wheel served Mass Effect well for years. Yes, direct map to key your mainstays, but if you bring up the Ability Wheel it could have icons for your Ability Trees, pointing to one opens reveals the abilities you have in it. If each tree has no more than 4 active abilities in it, each ability could automap to a button. That would potentially be a quick way of dealing with it. Button press -> Move stick -> Button press - Done. And I do understand why they've gone this route - yes, there is a speed advantage and creating "builds" which then generate discussion among the fans. No question, each way has it's pros and cons. It's just that with limited slots, you're encouraged to build one way - min/max. I wouldn't be surprised if most players simply google "best build for X" vs actually investing time and experimenting to figure out what that is. And once you figure that out, there's little to encourage you to experiment outside "the best build" as slots are precious. And again, I think the benefits of sheer variety, to keep combat fresh, is an important one - for me anyway.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 12, 2016 2:23:32 GMT
Origins, for one. I liked that different weapons (melee) did different damage. As mentioned by you, me and pretty much everyone who ever first 2 DA games, access to all abilities. PoE is another example, I know in the end it wasn't for you, personally, but there were so many ways of approaching encounters. But the key thing with those games was, if you're in it for the story, just turn the difficulty down, select all your party members and attack the same enemy and combat is not difficult. They allowed you, if it was your thing, to breeze through combat without getting bogged down by the flood of information available, but if you wanted to dive into that flood, you found there were numerous ways to approach each - or at least, most - encounter. There is a ton of customisation you can do in TW3, but in the end, combat almost always boils down to Quen + Aard/Igni + strike/dodge/roll repeat. I really enjoyed TW3, and its combat was far more enjoyable than TW2, but having watched multiple playthroughs on YT and completed 2 playthroughs myself within another underway, I feel pretty safe in saying combat is fairly one dimensional and relies almost solely on player speed and concentration. Which fits, because Geralt is out there by himself and is not a general. Ultimately, if DA4 has 'more' action combat than DA:I, I'm OK with that, as long as it is still a choice. If I can play DA my preferred way, in overhead cam, pausing to issue orders etc, then we're all good. *caveat* as long as commands I issue work and keep working, rather than my party deciding I don't know what I'm talking about and bring archers into melee range etc. I kinda wish I liked PoE more, it kinda put me off the BG-style games to the point where even intriguing-sounding ones like Tyranny I'm passing on. But you make a very good point about TW3. No matter how you build your Geralt, you fight largely the same way at level 50 as you do at level 1. I may dodge a little less with my heavy armor/alchemy build, and have a couple of sword tricks, but that's about it. Ciri was the only one who gained very different abilities as she progressed. In my ideal world - and after playing Arkham Knight with its Dual Play feature - Ciri and Geralt would have fought side by side and you could switch between the two. That would have been glorious. If it helps, I didn't like Pillars (the combat, at least, loved everything else) at release. Ended up rage quitting for about three or four months and coming back after a number of patches which included significant gameplay and UI improvements helped A LOT. Will be starting my second PT soon since 3.04 has been released and seems to last patch (barring any minor hot fixes). And even though I ended up loving Pillars, Tyranny hasn't grabbed me at all. Currently not even on watchlist. Maybe one day, but honestly, I think my nostalgia itch has been scratched.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Nov 12, 2016 3:24:34 GMT
Hey, this is why you employ those UI guys... to figure this stuff out! Off the top of my head, (and we're talking consoles here, PC would not be an issue) the Ability Wheel served Mass Effect well for years. Yes, direct map to key your mainstays, but if you bring up the Ability Wheel it could have icons for your Ability Trees, pointing to one opens reveals the abilities you have in it. If each tree has no more than 4 active abilities in it, each ability could automap to a button. That would potentially be a quick way of dealing with it. Button press -> Move stick -> Button press - Done. And I do understand why they've gone this route - yes, there is a speed advantage and creating "builds" which then generate discussion among the fans. No question, each way has it's pros and cons. It's just that with limited slots, you're encouraged to build one way - min/max. I wouldn't be surprised if most players simply google "best build for X" vs actually investing time and experimenting to figure out what that is. And once you figure that out, there's little to encourage you to experiment outside "the best build" as slots are precious. And again, I think the benefits of sheer variety, to keep combat fresh, is an important one - for me anyway. Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 12, 2016 3:37:59 GMT
Hey, this is why you employ those UI guys... to figure this stuff out! Off the top of my head, (and we're talking consoles here, PC would not be an issue) the Ability Wheel served Mass Effect well for years. Yes, direct map to key your mainstays, but if you bring up the Ability Wheel it could have icons for your Ability Trees, pointing to one opens reveals the abilities you have in it. If each tree has no more than 4 active abilities in it, each ability could automap to a button. That would potentially be a quick way of dealing with it. Button press -> Move stick -> Button press - Done. And I do understand why they've gone this route - yes, there is a speed advantage and creating "builds" which then generate discussion among the fans. No question, each way has it's pros and cons. It's just that with limited slots, you're encouraged to build one way - min/max. I wouldn't be surprised if most players simply google "best build for X" vs actually investing time and experimenting to figure out what that is. And once you figure that out, there's little to encourage you to experiment outside "the best build" as slots are precious. And again, I think the benefits of sheer variety, to keep combat fresh, is an important one - for me anyway. Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity. Would you - assuming another DA game is made, of course - consider multiple load-outs? Like LO1 has, for a Mage, something from spirit, like barrier and mind blast then a bunch of ice spells. LO2 might have the same spirit spells, but have fire, or lightning spells etc. And it could be the same for warriors/rogues. Maybe there would be a mandatory cool down for swapping load outs. That way we can still use all our abilities, still have to be "tactical" and can be useful in multiple scenarios. If you have an ice Mage at the moment and you come up against...I don't know...4 fear demons in Jaws of Hakkon...you are either useless or screwed.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 12, 2016 4:54:51 GMT
Hey, this is why you employ those UI guys... to figure this stuff out! Off the top of my head, (and we're talking consoles here, PC would not be an issue) the Ability Wheel served Mass Effect well for years. Yes, direct map to key your mainstays, but if you bring up the Ability Wheel it could have icons for your Ability Trees, pointing to one opens reveals the abilities you have in it. If each tree has no more than 4 active abilities in it, each ability could automap to a button. That would potentially be a quick way of dealing with it. Button press -> Move stick -> Button press - Done. And I do understand why they've gone this route - yes, there is a speed advantage and creating "builds" which then generate discussion among the fans. No question, each way has it's pros and cons. It's just that with limited slots, you're encouraged to build one way - min/max. I wouldn't be surprised if most players simply google "best build for X" vs actually investing time and experimenting to figure out what that is. And once you figure that out, there's little to encourage you to experiment outside "the best build" as slots are precious. And again, I think the benefits of sheer variety, to keep combat fresh, is an important one - for me anyway. Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity. Even though I did find it frustrating at times, I didn't mind the 8 skill limit too much because I played Guild Wars, which has the same thing. Guild Wars was even more limited in that you could only switch abilities while in town. If you were out adventuring and you forgot you were going to an area that needed a lot of AOE (there is one place with a bunch of irritating bug swarms), well too bad for you, deal with it or head back to town and fix it. That said, I ran into the same problem with DAI that I ran into with Guild Wars. For any class or spec there will always be a few abilities that are essential; you need these abilities on your bar, there is no choice if you want to do... well anything. For the DAI SnS warrior, this is about 4. That only leaves me with 4 real slots for abilities of my choice. This is where the real limitation comes in. DAI also presented a problem with the Anchor abilities*. Because of how that power is generated, it led to the mentality that I had to hoard it "just in case," which meant that I was rarely using it, perhaps only 10% of the time, and it felt like it was a wasted skill slot. I eventually decided to just forgo that most of the time and only put it on my bar when I set out to do certain things, like fight a dragon. I also feel that this skill limit presents story/gameplay and flow issues. If I'm wandering around, running into and dispatching bandits, and then I come upon a dragon, I want to be able to just go ahead and fight that dragon. The 8 skill limit presented some problems in that there were certain skills that were better for boss fights because they were Big Ticket abilities that either required a lot of power or had a long cooldown, so you wouldn't bother using them while fighting normal trash mobs (this is a WoW term used for all of the non-boss mobs in a dungeon). I'm sure this was intended gameplay, but I didn't find it fun that I had to set out and prepare for just this one single fight, and then switch everything back when it was over. * I also had an issue with how these were presented in the game in terms of the narrative. While these were fun to use, and the devs tried to show this to a degree, the Anchor was presented as something the Inquisitor didn't understand or know how to control. There were scenes that gave indications that he gained more control as time went on, but it's not clear if that was instinct, or him actually learning. This was never addressed directly in the game.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 12, 2016 5:12:54 GMT
Hey, this is why you employ those UI guys... to figure this stuff out! Off the top of my head, (and we're talking consoles here, PC would not be an issue) the Ability Wheel served Mass Effect well for years. Yes, direct map to key your mainstays, but if you bring up the Ability Wheel it could have icons for your Ability Trees, pointing to one opens reveals the abilities you have in it. If each tree has no more than 4 active abilities in it, each ability could automap to a button. That would potentially be a quick way of dealing with it. Button press -> Move stick -> Button press - Done. And I do understand why they've gone this route - yes, there is a speed advantage and creating "builds" which then generate discussion among the fans. No question, each way has it's pros and cons. It's just that with limited slots, you're encouraged to build one way - min/max. I wouldn't be surprised if most players simply google "best build for X" vs actually investing time and experimenting to figure out what that is. And once you figure that out, there's little to encourage you to experiment outside "the best build" as slots are precious. And again, I think the benefits of sheer variety, to keep combat fresh, is an important one - for me anyway. Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity. Thanks for popping in Luke, I remember we chatted about this a bit before in another thread. At the end of the day, of course you guys have do what you feel is the best fit for your game. Though I'd say, if you're seeing some people are only using 4 or 5 abilities, it would be interesting to find out why. And, I don't know if BioWare captures data on ability experimentation/frequency of ability swaps/impact on gameplay/fan response, but overall is this system working the way you hoped (apart from build diversity)? "DA:I's skill system is a measurable improvement over the previous games for X/Y/Z reasons?"As DragonKingReborn suggests, it would be great if there were some... magical... way to compromise between the two styles.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 12, 2016 5:22:37 GMT
Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity. Would you - assuming another DA game is made, of course - consider multiple load-outs? Like LO1 has, for a Mage, something from spirit, like barrier and mind blast then a bunch of ice spells. LO2 might have the same spirit spells, but have fire, or lightning spells etc. And it could be the same for warriors/rogues. Maybe there would be a mandatory cool down for swapping load outs. That way we can still use all our abilities, still have to be "tactical" and can be useful in multiple scenarios. If you have an ice Mage at the moment and you come up against...I don't know...4 fear demons in Jaws of Hakkon...you are either useless or screwed. Yeah, one thing you figure out quick in DAI is don't over-specialize if you're a mage. As Motoko would say, " Over-specialize, and you breed in weakness."Mages are the class with the hardest time dealing with the 8 slot limitation as you're trying to juggle party defense, crowd control, damage in a wide enough variety to deal with resistant enemies, mobility and focus abilities. You can easily fill up the entire bar with "Essentials".
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 12, 2016 5:46:05 GMT
Personally, I dislike the idea of having access to all of your skills simultaneously but I certainly understand the frustration some people have feeling as if they're being artificially limited (though I'd argue some of those people don't use more than 4 or 5 skills most of the time anyway). On the point of 'best build for X' I feel as though the failure here is on our end, not providing enough viable skill (and build) diversity. Even though I did find it frustrating at times, I didn't mind the 8 skill limit too much because I played Guild Wars, which has the same thing. Guild Wars was even more limited in that you could only switch abilities while in town. If you were out adventuring and you forgot you were going to an area that needed a lot of AOE (there is one place with a bunch of irritating bug swarms), well too bad for you, deal with it or head back to town and fix it. That said, I ran into the same problem with DAI that I ran into with Guild Wars. For any class or spec there will always be a few abilities that are essential; you need these abilities on your bar, there is no choice if you want to do... well anything. For the DAI SnS warrior, this is about 4. That only leaves me with 4 real slots for abilities of my choice. This is where the real limitation comes in. DAI also presented a problem with the Anchor abilities*. Because of how that power is generated, it led to the mentality that I had to hoard it "just in case," which meant that I was rarely using it, perhaps only 10% of the time, and it felt like it was a wasted skill slot. I eventually decided to just forgo that most of the time and only put it on my bar when I set out to do certain things, like fight a dragon. I also feel that this skill limit presents story/gameplay and flow issues. If I'm wandering around, running into and dispatching bandits, and then I come upon a dragon, I want to be able to just go ahead and fight that dragon. The 8 skill limit presented some problems in that there were certain skills that were better for boss fights because they were Big Ticket abilities that either required a lot of power or had a long cooldown, so you wouldn't bother using them while fighting normal trash mobs (this is a WoW term used for all of the non-boss mobs in a dungeon). I'm sure this was intended gameplay, but I didn't find it fun that I had to set out and prepare for just this one single fight, and then switch everything back when it was over. * I also had an issue with how these were presented in the game in terms of the narrative. While these were fun to use, and the devs tried to show this to a degree, the Anchor was presented as something the Inquisitor didn't understand or know how to control. There were scenes that gave indications that he gained more control as time went on, but it's not clear if that was instinct, or him actually learning. This was never addressed directly in the game. Pretty much agree with everything said here, and it reminded me of a discussion we had in another thread about Focus Powers. Overall I thought it was a good idea as a way to recharge your nova powers. Though if they were to carry that idea forward to the next game, I'd like to see them recharge faster, tweak the power accordingly, and get more use out of them. As they are, I deal with them exactly the same as you. When levels get to a point Ability Bars are getting full, take off the Focus Abilities and only swap them back in for Boss fights. And I have the same issues with breaking the flow of the game to swap abilities in and out (for everyone) for specific encounters.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 12, 2016 6:25:10 GMT
Though however combat is handled in the next game, if BioWare can somehow generate the same level of excitement in combat as in DOOM, you're 9/10ths of the way there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 19:21:07 GMT
Just a thought, I dislike the combat in Witcher 3, but one thing I do appreciate is how they dealt with the pacing. Enemy AI will slowly circle around you and leave some margin of error, and isn't over aggressive unlike the AI in DAI. The result is much less chaotic.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 19:51:43 GMT
Just a thought, I dislike the combat in Witcher 3, but one thing I do appreciate is how they dealt with the pacing. Enemy AI will slowly circle around you and leave some margin of error, and isn't over aggressive unlike the AI in DAI. The result is much less chaotic. That's a good point, and it also helps make the combat a little more believable when your foes (or at least some of them) are a bit more "wary" in combat. Maybe have your close range "rank and file" opponents take a momentary step back when you perform a finisher/huge hit on one.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 20:45:43 GMT
And as we talked about Glory Kills, I wonder if bringing back the slo-mo camera style finishers might also help in the pacing. We've seen them in DAO and other games (not always effectively though)... and movies like 300 use that technique very well.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 27, 2016 20:49:36 GMT
Two things about this. First of all all we really have to base on is rescent history. And recent history DAs combat has gotten less actiony between DA 2 and DA I. They re added the tactical camera, they slowed the combat down, etc. This trajectory, especially when a lot of the complaints were the game wasn't tactical enough for people and since BioWare does listen to fan feedback I can expect DA to continue to evolve in the other way.
Two: The games are from entirely different...well modes of combat. I only ever used the 'pause and look around feture in ME' for sparingly few objectives. But the primary difference is guns. Mass Effect, since it is a shooter, and since shooters have been moving in a faster direction, things like speed seems to be easier to manage. That and the companions, in ME games, seem to be largely window dressing. Whereas in ME they are a vital part of the combat and team synergy is huge.
Could the series become more action based ala Witcher? Sure I suppose so. Would I mind such a change? I don't know I'll have to play it. But I really doubt they will go in that direction, at least not yet.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 22:45:46 GMT
Two things about this. First of all all we really have to base on is rescent history. And recent history DAs combat has gotten less actiony between DA 2 and DA I. They re added the tactical camera, they slowed the combat down, etc. This trajectory, especially when a lot of the complaints were the game wasn't tactical enough for people and since BioWare does listen to fan feedback I can expect DA to continue to evolve in the other way. Two: The games are from entirely different...well modes of combat. I only ever used the 'pause and look around feture in ME' for sparingly few objectives. But the primary difference is guns. Mass Effect, since it is a shooter, and since shooters have been moving in a faster direction, things like speed seems to be easier to manage. That and the companions, in ME games, seem to be largely window dressing. Whereas in ME they are a vital part of the combat and team synergy is huge. Could the series become more action based ala Witcher? Sure I suppose so. Would I mind such a change? I don't know I'll have to play it. But I really doubt they will go in that direction, at least not yet. We have heard the occasional... murmur though that the next DA might be exploring elements like active blocks, evades and action-oriented abilities, but at a slower/more methodical pace. Nothing definite ofc, but my more recent comments stem from that. That doesn't necessarily preclude being able to use the tac cam either. It's funny you mention ME though, as my own playstyle (in SP) used "Pause/Aim/Coordinate w/Squad" far more there than in DAI. I approached ME3 like a surgeon - dismantling the opposition with my Vanguard & squad in the most coordinated, efficient manner possible. Which meant I paused and adjusted all the time. I actually played DAI way faster and looser (relatively speaking).
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Post by Max Deltree on Nov 28, 2016 18:02:42 GMT
I think that people still expect a more tactic approach in Dragon Age, so I don't think they will go fully action style. At least for the main series. Nothing prevents spin-offs to do so.
There is a few of things I would like to see in the next Dragon Age combat. I like the idea to use inspiration from Dark Souls and make enemies a bit slower, with telegraphed attacks. But in a way that don't restrict us to the main character only (Oh, shit, he's going to use his special attack: KILLFUCK SOULSHITTER!! Pause! Make Dorian teleport out of the way. Harding roll away. Tank put the shield up!)
I would like to see builds being very different. Like in Dragon Age Origins you could make a tank mage with Arcane Warrior, for instance. You could make a shapeshifter with only the essential in magic and boosting strength for better attacks (thought it kinda sucked). You could find an armor that is better for that build, and that armor would be relevant the whole game (the unique armors).
Dragon Age 2 had the combat I least liked, but I loved how my aggressive Blood Mage was very aggressive in his animations (I think it wasn't tied to his behavior, it was Hawke's animations that were more aggressive in general). But perhaps it would be cool to see some kind of animation differences based on humor? Like the dialog was in Dragon Age 2? That rocked, by the way.
Inquisition's tactic camera is on the right track, I think. The problem was that, the regular enemies didn't require then, at all. And even the stronger ones hardly required then. But I made great use of the camera on Nightmare, when my Inquisitor was an archer.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 28, 2016 19:51:15 GMT
There's a problem with all the Dark Souls/Witcher combat comparisons -- all of those were designed for *single combat*. I'm doubtful the same system will work with a full party, which got up to six allies in DAI. Doing Dark Souls style rolls and blocks with 6 allies would look like a Bollywood dance number.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 28, 2016 20:27:45 GMT
I've always preferred pause and play.
DAI was waaaay too pew-pew and their "tactical mode" was a joke.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 29, 2016 9:05:06 GMT
Now THIS is how a Warrior supposed to fight!
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 29, 2016 11:50:14 GMT
Would you like to see a move in this direction? No? I would hate to see that happening. Seriously. Why must *every* *single* *fucking* game have "fast-paced action"? It's the curse of the modern gaming industry and its bandwagon mentality and destroys the diversity of big budget games. I want a roleplaying game, not something that depends on twitchy fingers.
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