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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 7, 2016 9:56:22 GMT
^ Well that's why casual mode and the action cam is there, for people like us who don't want to play with pausing, arranging the party in iso camera and so on
I like the combat and killing things, I just don't consider it fun -- indeed I consider it "work" -- to play in that way.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 7, 2016 19:28:51 GMT
Random Tuesday Musings...If they do move towards a more action-based style of combat (with each class having built-in evade/block abilities), perhaps having a little more self-sufficiency would make it easier to incorporate a few "Lone Wolf" segments. We've heard of rival mages dueling in the streets of Minrathous... and duels in general are always fun. There's also a Proving Grounds which could make for some interesting gladiatorial combat. Maybe bring back some solo-style side quests like the Thieving Quests in DAO? Overall, I think it'd be nice to see a few more "opportunities for individual achievement". I couldn't agree more. I'd vote for this being a separate thread, since I expect this to branch into a lot of related ground. I know it's annoying, but Witcher 2 and 3 compare favorably to DA here. Need some money? Go fight a few rounds in Fight Club. Need a way into the guard camp? Get recruited as a pit fighter. Need to teach a lesson to a thug that hurt one of your pals in an earlier segment? Challenge him to a duel. Exactly. And the Tournament + side quest in Blood & Wine was also nicely done. I'll start up a separate thread on this when I have time to compose something (hopefully) semi-sorta-intelligent.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 13, 2016 10:06:38 GMT
Threads like these always make wonder if I'm playing Dragon Age the wrong way since I rarely do extremely long pauses and DAI was the first time I bothered with the free camera buy that was mostly so the AI would stop standing still in fire For the most part I usually prioritize abilities so the AI understand the role its assigned through the tactics menu and for the most part it works. Though tactics were less detailed in Inquisition it still worked Honestly I think the current combat system is good, and yes I was one of the few who thought Origins was unbearably slow. Especially when your swords swings are so slow even a tortoise could dodge It doesn't need to go full action like Andromeda seemed to but that's not to say slowing down to Origins speed is the best solution neither I really liked DAO's combat system, though yes, the sword swings looked funny. The advantage was you could play tactically in real-time, and more to the point, positioning actually mattered because it took time for you to get anywhere. With these newer systems, position becomes irrelevant since everyone has some ability to be somewhere else in no time, or at the very least, to bring an enemy to you in no time. That's not at all fun, that's just silly. As I see it, being unable to pause makes party-based combat impossible unless you slow it down to DAO-like speed - which I would rather like, but I suspect it's not going to happen. The main problem, though, is playstyle and difficulty. I like to play thorough, not fast, and in fact, I can be very accurate but only if I don't need to be fast at the same time. Basically, my main gaming competence is with a stealth-sniper-assassination style. I can do DAI-style "open and fast" but only because it's relatively easy. Even so, in lengthy fights, if I feel in danger, I often get immensely stressed and develop trembling fingers to the point that I have to pause whatever the means to recover. I'm currently playing TW3 and I absolutely dread the next multi-stage boss fight after the golem and the Wild Hunt fighter in "Wandering in the Dark" - and this is on the easiest setting. Speaking of TW3, its combat system is great. It feels much more real than DAI's, which in comparison, comes across as "too video-gamey" where perceived balance and effects take precedence and which often feels like an abstraction separate from the story. Fights are more difficult to start with, but you can make most fights much easier with a careful approach and a little research, particularly the semi-boss fights in most Witcher contracts. I started on the easiest setting only because I recall TW2's boss fights (the reason I could never finish TW2).
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Dec 13, 2016 13:24:01 GMT
If it's anything like the combat in Guild Wars 2 which is free flowing and versatile; there isn't even any need to pause when switching weapons and those weapons come with different skills, providing different tactical approaches. Additionally, Dragon's Dogma combat features are also good; where you can tack/climb onto larger creatures and attack them at vulnerable points. I'm fine with it. I haven't tried GW2, but I do like the idea... This was recorded two years ago. I took a two year break from GW2, then played swtor like crazy for the last two months when I returned to "full time" gaming but I'm putting it to sleep for a while so I'm returning to GW2. I did not switch to secondary weapon because really there were fighters already in the melee so I stuck with the primary; longbow. The firing rate for it has since been revised. Now it's been jokingly referred as the rapid fire bow or pew pew pew. Short compilation of a few world bosses.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 14, 2016 3:02:57 GMT
I haven't tried GW2, but I do like the idea... This was recorded two years ago. I took a two year break from GW2, then played swtor like crazy for the last two months when I returned to "full time" gaming but I'm putting it to sleep for a while so I'm returning to GW2. Thanks for the links! Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I dig the idea. Which brings me to another thought...
- If they decide to add both "block" and "evade" as standard abilities for each class, how would they best be mapped to a controller (as that is the lowest common denominator)? Occupying 2 ability buttons (they are essentially abilities) and reducing our other abilities to 6? Blocks are usually mapped to the LT, but in DAI it's used to select your 2nd set of abilities. - And if you wanted to add swappable weapons, where would you select them? LB? Would it be an acceptable tradeoff to having 2 or 3 swappable weapon sets, but fewer abilities/weapon? - Would it be worth adding fast & heavy attacks? Eg. Tap the trigger once to attack/auto-attack, hold to activate a "heavy" mappable attack ability? If you giveth in one area you have to taketh away in another, so... it's an interesting puzzle.
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Post by alihou on Dec 16, 2016 5:53:48 GMT
Yes, I think it's time to improve it. I felt like the combat in Inquisition was a bit dull tbh, it became very repetitive and I didn't feel involved. It can definitely be improved upon. Active blocking, actual strategy, and PLEASE for the love of the Maker bring back the Tactics slot for companions. I want the skirmishes to feel a bit more organic.
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 16, 2016 11:28:03 GMT
I liked DAO's combat but I am getting more and more into the minority it seems. I thought the pace of the action was really realistic. *shrugs*
I will put my hand up only to say I hope that it doesn't become too action-y. I personally thought DAI took it too far for me. Any further and I think I will just look for some mod that can help me mow through mobs (godmode or what have you) and get to the story, which is hopefully the actual focus of the development, Maker willing.
And if it happens, can a developer out there on the 0.00000001% chance you are reading this please make an RPG like DAO or DA2? There is a market there I promise!
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 18, 2016 15:06:38 GMT
I liked the combat system in DA2 and I liked it mostly in DA:I as well but I think it needs massive improvement. I think, if they're going for the open-world formula they used for DA:I again with such big environments, they have to make the movement during combat and the basic attacks feel faster or more varied somehow. The style of combat is kind of an evolution of DA:O but where it feels more responsive to using a button as opposed to ordering them to autoattack, but while it works to some extent in encounters, going through an open-world level to stumble upon such encounters feels bad to me. It feels like every time there are enemies you sort of hit upon a wall. With DA:O and 2 that felt natural because the environments were condensed but in DA:I it was exhausting.
I think some moves on the other hand remedied it, but because of customization and variation to classes some players will have a bad game experience while others won't. I had the ice-warp thingy that feels like using the Neon speed from Infamous Second Son which really helped the movement to feel better suited for traversal in such a big space and similarly warriors can roll if they get the ability and rogues can leap. I think what they might need to do is add one "dodge" base movement that everyone has but one that varies per class or race like in ME3's heavy melee for the sake of traversal and for the sake of not making long, never-ending combat encounters feel like they begin to drag.
If you have a game where there's a lot of respawning and the chance that everywhere you go there'll be an encounter or two, make up for that fact by making moving through it less tedious. The DA:O/DA2 style approach does not work as is for an open-world environment, so you can't have both. Stick to what DA:I had but change a few things so one button is always tied to a dodge or leap kind of move for every playable character or drop the open-world setting and go for smaller spaces and re-explore the DA:O approach but with more "awesome-button" design without dropping tactical cam.
I was perfectly fine with the "pause-and-strategize" playstyle of DA:O and I wouldn't have a problem with more of that. I just think BioWare is hellbent on making something that appeals to action/adventure players at the same time and they've locked in on that choice so that's the way it goes. Unfortunately that means we'll never get the DA:O approach again because as long as the companion AI is smart enough to handle themselves at all times it means you never have to stop up and think about what they should do just to survive. I still had to plan for my companions in DA:I but it wasn't required like in DA:O where I would absolutely fail every time I didn't. I like both approaches, but I understand the frustration of those that thought DA:O was so good they should've kept and improved it than to change their direction.
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Post by cloud9 on Dec 22, 2016 9:00:51 GMT
Don't mind if they learn from Assassin's Creed to revamp the swordplay and fluid movements for once.
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Post by lundajfs on Dec 22, 2016 10:57:26 GMT
I liked DAO's combat but I am getting more and more into the minority it seems. I thought the pace of the action was really realistic. *shrugs* I will put my hand up only to say I hope that it doesn't become too action-y. I personally thought DAI took it too far for me. Any further and I think I will just look for some mod that can help me mow through mobs (godmode or what have you) and get to the story, which is hopefully the actual focus of the development, Maker willing. And if it happens, can a developer out there on the 0.00000001% chance you are reading this please make an RPG like DAO or DA2? There is a market there I promise! Thing is DAO is already ultra action for me, but bearable. What I really like is Turn-based (usually in J-RPGs) and tactics, but DAO is amazing and it doesn't feel like I need to do anything so when I "pause and play" it almost feels like turn-based. DA2 despite the action-y animations kind of plays the same, so I could ignore the action feeling. DAI on the other hand... 100% useless and unfixable. But since I am not insane and I KNOW FOR A FACT that Bioware sold their souls (and asses) and good old combat will never return, I'd rather an enjoyable action combat instead of DAI's "best of worst" of each world. DAI managed to get the worse of tactics and action and make a mess of a lot of nothing-can-be-salvaged gameplay. Now if you understand the franchise is completely dead for people like you and me... you can move on and ask for possible things in dumb AAA games because that's all you're going to get. No stats, no exploration skill, no DAO combat, nothing complex at all, just dumb streamlined gear-based, role-based, multiplayer minded action bullshit. So if this is the shit we are getting it is better be an embellished embroidered jeweled shit. So give me aerial combos, teleport evasion, kage bunshin no jutsu kamehame ha swordstorm, etc. If we're going down at least let it be in a blaze of glory
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 25, 2016 22:59:52 GMT
The push for instant-gratification combat and gameplay is clearly something that came from EA or at least the forced focus-testing that EA requires of their developers to design games around, because it was right after ME1 and DA:O which both began before EA but released under EA that were the last BioWare games to go in the BioWare-way of trying out their own things and right off the bat DA2 made some very vital people "nope" out of development and BioWare entirely. I think it was Brent Ostner or something who was a really important staff member who designed DA:O to a large extent and decided to leave the second he heard BioWare telling him DA2 had to be more action-based. He even wrote a blog about his disappointment and disagreement with that philosophy, but made no comments about EA.
But yeah, BioWare got worse on a game per game basis since EA took over the company. They have "full creative control" under strict multi-game development cycles, DLC practices and forced focus-testing and the further we go in time the more BioWare has gotten used to speaking to other EA staff and we see more staff from elsewhere in EA enter BioWare and bastardize it. The BioWare that was is just long-gone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 1:52:29 GMT
So give me aerial combos, teleport evasion, kage bunshin no jutsu kamehame ha swordstorm, etc. If we're going down at least let it be in a blaze of glory Fuck no
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Post by Cypher on Dec 26, 2016 5:04:26 GMT
What I dislike is them limiting abilities to eight mapped ones. Bring back the ability to pull up an ability wheel and access more powers, either with a quick toggle between the first set of eight and the second set of eight on a keyboard or make RT swap between the remaining eight and map attack to a different button.
I highly doubt they're getting rid of pausing actions entirely considering that Andromeda, based on the gameplay trailer, still has them and Dragon Age has played nothing like Mass Effect other than the dialog mechanics, and both are targeting two different yet sometimes overlapping audiences.
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Post by lundajfs on Dec 26, 2016 13:52:24 GMT
So give me aerial combos, teleport evasion, kage bunshin no jutsu kamehame ha swordstorm, etc. If we're going down at least let it be in a blaze of glory Fuck no You better accept an unavoidable fact. When I played Dragon Age Origins I did not expect the franchise to come to a game where a supersized qunari superjumps and superblasts, neither I imagined Meredith superspeed superjump superdumbness, still they're there. These things I posted are already there mocking the franchise they just aren't (completely) in our hands, but the ridiculousness is there since DA2. Perhaps you didn't play a Tempest or a Knight-Enchanter but they are in the realms of animes, they ALREADY are. What I'm asking for is that the ridiculousness comes coupled with a dynamic gameplay instead of "press X for 100 hits in a second followed by a thousdand explosions" which we already have. I should also point that with Masterwork Material a dual wield rogue becomes a portable Michael Bay movie causing all kinds of elemental damages and explosions, with things like explosions on kill, walking bomb spirit explosionsk fierish and poisionish explosions and so on, this with teleport like dashs, Batman worthy rope jumps and so on. There is no coming back from ridiculouness since the first second of DA2 where your warrior/rogue jumped 15 kilometers in the air to come down like a meteor cleaving their blades on darkspawn. From that moment on, Goku and Naruto were already envied of Thedas ridiculousness. Perhaps you aren't aware but you can do retarded stuff like becoming invisible dash teleporting inside an enemy decloack exploding sending enemy airborne stop time and then hitting the floating-in-a-time-bubble-soon-to-be-corpse with your spirit blade that trigger multiple teleport like hits. Did you notice a villain making huge masses of land float? And the dwarves with lyrium machineguns? And the Harlequin-no-different-from-a-kunoichi-from-Konoha? What Bioware can do, after transforming Thedas in what is worthy of the most ridiculous episodes of One Punch Man, is give us a fitting gameplay, one that is not boring because the only thing worse than ridiculous is boring ridiculous which Inquisition is. But whatever right? Perhaps you think the gameplay being boring can erase the riidiculousness of showering meteor in front of Templars in Kirkwall. Humans believe in all kinds of weird stuff.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 9, 2017 8:10:07 GMT
This combat system should've been in DA:I
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Post by mmoblitz on Feb 9, 2017 12:09:52 GMT
I have never used the tac-cam. I don't like stopping to issue orders and it takes away from the immersion. DA2 combat was my favorite combat for me. It seemed the most fluid and the tactics worked best in that game. I could set my companion up how I wanted them and never really had to bother with them again. I hated DAI's combat with the lose of those tactics. It got to the point where I only brought companions along for the loyalty quests and didn't bother with them at any other time. I didn't even romance anyone as they were pretty forgettable for me.
I don't mind them going more action style, but games that have active blocking and dodging in them, tend to punish ranged characters by gimping the ranged toons to make them less effective to play or more difficult to play. They do this to try and keep the balance between melee and ranged. Typically, ranged ends up being a nightmare. If they went that route, they should really bring the healing spec back along with DA2 tactics system since potions aren't going to work with those types of mechanics.
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Post by mmoblitz on Feb 9, 2017 12:24:37 GMT
This was recorded two years ago. I took a two year break from GW2, then played swtor like crazy for the last two months when I returned to "full time" gaming but I'm putting it to sleep for a while so I'm returning to GW2. Thanks for the links! Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I dig the idea. Which brings me to another thought...
- If they decide to add both "block" and "evade" as standard abilities for each class, how would they best be mapped to a controller (as that is the lowest common denominator)? Occupying 2 ability buttons (they are essentially abilities) and reducing our other abilities to 6? Blocks are usually mapped to the LT, but in DAI it's used to select your 2nd set of abilities. - And if you wanted to add swappable weapons, where would you select them? LB? Would it be an acceptable tradeoff to having 2 or 3 swappable weapon sets, but fewer abilities/weapon? - Would it be worth adding fast & heavy attacks? Eg. Tap the trigger once to attack/auto-attack, hold to activate a "heavy" mappable attack ability? If you giveth in one area you have to taketh away in another, so... it's an interesting puzzle. Maker, No! If they were to introduce weapon swapping then I'm out. That is one thing I absolutely hate. How it is now is fine. I don't need another already limited button taken up to swap weapons. I can't stand ESO or GW2 for the weapon swapping mechanic, among other things. I don't own a console so all my playing is done via M/K. Since they design the game around console, whatever limitations they do to the UI for consoles, gets passed to the PC version, even if it doesn't need to be. Even if you have no intention of playing ME:A, you should watch and pay attention to how the combat mechanics are received. You will be limited to 3 power lots in that game. If it's done and received well, expect to see something similar in the next dragon age game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 14:30:15 GMT
I'd like that. I am not sure how the combat is handled in DA:I, but in DA2, the cooldowns are so long, that you end up autoattacking too much. I'd love a set up that is more like Blade and Soul, when you have abilities that change depending on where you are positioned (in the air, grabbing, controlled, etc) and are tied to the basic keyboard buttons clustered around the awsd. Would also love to be able to dodge on double tapping the directions. I also want the S to work as a backpedal, not the "turn around and walk away" button. I would also love to get a fully specked healer character that, well, heals with AoE, targeted drops of the healing pulses, HoTs, etc.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 19, 2017 1:18:26 GMT
This combat system should've been in DA:I In a future game, I wouldn't mind seeing a little more... style in the basic attack animations, particularly for the melee classes. Not OTT, but perhaps with a little flair that implies a high level of skill. And then combine that with Glory Kills/Finishers. If I had a pie-in-the-sky wish, it would be that your basic attack animations would change when you pick up your specialization, in a way that reflects your new training. A tankier spec might change your animation with a more pronounced defensive posture, while you might adopt a flamboyant, acrobatic style with an appropriate rogue spec. In a roundabout way, they've kinda done that with the KE and the spirit blade. And to pile on the wish list, I'd be nice to a somewhat different animation style for mages rather the odd-feeling staff twirl, but still something with a little style. And as we've seen cloth physics introduced in DAI, I'm hoping they'll go that one step further in the next game and have cloaks. I think they could do an even better job than ME:SoM. Mike Laidlaw tweeted this image a few days back and it got me thinking... Cloaks are great in that they emphasize motion. And that off-the-one-shoulder look is fantastic visually. (Go ahead and hit me with your best "No Capes!" jokes, I can take it! )
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Post by merlin217 on Feb 19, 2017 5:16:05 GMT
ME has always tried to be a good cover-based shooter. That's in ME's DNA. ME's evolution has trended towards improvement and refinement without deviating from that original trajectory. The evolution in DA combat isn't as clear cut to me. It's pulled in a lot of directions: traditional D&D, JRPG turn-based, WRPG action. Ironically, from DAO I would have predicted a deepening of the tactical AI and a move more towards JRPG style combat, as I considered the novel style of customizable AI combat as being DA's DNA. But it didn't work out that way. Cannot agree more. I think the biggest problem with DA's combat for a lot of people is that the developers don't know what its core DNA is.
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Post by Hellkite on Feb 19, 2017 7:52:12 GMT
As much I enjoyed origins....since playing Inquisition it's the only way to be play! EMBRACE THE CHAOS!!!!
However, I did play as a knight enchanter, Reaver and Tempest so that may be why I enjoyed the more freestyle combat
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 1:53:03 GMT
The push for instant-gratification combat and gameplay is clearly something that came from EA or at least the forced focus-testing that EA requires of their developers to design games around, because it was right after ME1 and DA:O which both began before EA but released under EA that were the last BioWare games to go in the BioWare-way of trying out their own things and right off the bat DA2 made some very vital people "nope" out of development and BioWare entirely. I think it was Brent Ostner or something who was a really important staff member who designed DA:O to a large extent and decided to leave the second he heard BioWare telling him DA2 had to be more action-based. He even wrote a blog about his disappointment and disagreement with that philosophy, but made no comments about EA. But yeah, BioWare got worse on a game per game basis since EA took over the company. They have "full creative control" under strict multi-game development cycles, DLC practices and forced focus-testing and the further we go in time the more BioWare has gotten used to speaking to other EA staff and we see more staff from elsewhere in EA enter BioWare and bastardize it. The BioWare that was is just long-gone. Brent Knowles and Trent Oster left when they saw what Dragon Age II was going to be combat and character wise. They always designed their games around the D&D style. More tactics and ways to develop your class/character. Not to be dramatic, but it was a huge loss. Say what you want about NWN's story, but damn they made a great character/combat system for that game. They are both at Beamdog now, screwing up Baldurs Gate. Sorry for the "necro" quote.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 20, 2017 8:17:15 GMT
Brent Knowles and Trent Oster left when they saw what Dragon Age II was going to be combat and character wise. They always designed their games around the D&D style. More tactics and ways to develop your class etc. Not to be dramatic, but it was a huge loss. Say what you want about NWN's story, but damn they made a great character/combat system for that game. They are both at Beamdog now, screwing up Baldurs Gate. Sorry for the "necro" quote. David Gaider also moved to Beamdog.
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FireAndBlood
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Post by FireAndBlood on Feb 20, 2017 12:59:09 GMT
As much as I would love for Dragon Age to become a full fledged Action RPG, I imagine it would be too great a deviation from the first game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 15:21:50 GMT
Brent Knowles and Trent Oster left when they saw what Dragon Age II was going to be combat and character wise. They always designed their games around the D&D style. More tactics and ways to develop your class etc. Not to be dramatic, but it was a huge loss. Say what you want about NWN's story, but damn they made a great character/combat system for that game. They are both at Beamdog now, screwing up Baldurs Gate. Sorry for the "necro" quote. David Gaider also moved to Beamdog. Which makes me a bit more hopeful for the future of the company, but they would be wise to leave Baldurs Gate and do something completely new. I am just glad some of the writers that worked on Siege of Dragonspear had to leave. Also with Gaider overseeing the writers it can only get better.
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