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Post by phoray on Nov 14, 2016 2:18:33 GMT
So. Justice. Vengeance. Spirit. Demon. Whatever you call him.
Is he or is he not still a mostly separate entity within Anders?
Why, why not, and please, if you can find any, supporting evidence.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 3:28:54 GMT
Oh... thats great! Thank you! First. Sadly, I think, Bioware want to suggest: he is a demon, and evil, and on the rivalry path, this seems proved: Justice show himself more violent and unpredictable. But Anders told: Justice only emerge, when he loses his self-control, if he become really angry, or feel danger. First time, when Hawke appears in the clinic and he feel his work in danger, but he can control Justice. Second time in the Chantry, when he saw what happened with Karl, AND the templars arrived. I think this was justifiable, and when he was in safe again, Justice draw back. Third time, when Anders spoke about that how templars kidnap the mage children, but he easy to calm down again. This proves to be able to control. Interesting scene. Anders told to Hawke's warning ( "You started to glow again" – sarcastic answer), that "And since yours is the only head here, and I don't want to rip it off, I should stop. Yes. Sorry." So: he can control, if he dont lose his mind. This is the reason, why I have ambivalent feeling about Justice, and can't call him demon or evil. Anders always said, he is corrupted, but never call him: demon. If Hawke in friendship relation with Anders, Justice only once show himself as "evil", when he attack Ella. But Hawke can convince him, relatively easily, and justice retreat again. In the Fade Justice don't show himself as evil. If Hawke in rivalry with Anders, Anders is continuously between two fire, and he much more stressed. He's almost always angry, because Hawke lack of understanding, because of Templars, Elthina's "neutrality", himself, and Justice as well. And he increasingly uncertain. I no wonder, that he lose his mind so easily, and Justice emerge often, because he feel Anders uncertainty, and he feel, that they purpose in danger. Justice, out of fade trapped in a body, and controlled by an another mind, now in trouble. He not himself anymore, as Anders. In the Fade his position is easy, he is the justice, he is the truth. But what is the truth, the justice in the world. Justice merged with Anders, because he feel, that the Circles are unjust, and yes, this is the truth. But if Justice want to fight for the Mage freedom, he need to break the law. (I wrote before in Anders topic) Justice against law. The law defend by the soldiers, templars, guards. So many innocent victim! Justice against innocents. So: he really not that clean Justice, what was in the Fade. And again: He, just as Anders not alone anymore, his opinion is Anders' opinion, and Anders' opinion is also his. After Fade scene, when Hawke talk with Anders, Anders told to Hawke, how weird and hard was to lose to control over himself, and trapped his own body, and that Justice probably feel same in every day. (That's what only Bethany able to understand – how great, that I now play with a warrior! Bethany: I know it didn't work the way you wanted, but... it was brave, what you did with Justice. Anders: It was meant well. I don't know if that's enough to forgive me. Bethany: It must have been hard for him, being trapped outside the Fade. In a place where no one's like him. Bethany: I bet he appreciated having a friend. Anders: He did.) So: not that easy to call Justice to evil or demon, but he's not the pure justice anymore. And: he is a spirit, so I think, he not "good" as a person "good". As I see, he, in the Fade don't feel sympathy. He's not spirit of Compassion. Anders who have human feelings... This is my opinion, sorry for my english. UPDATE:We can't forget: Anders got many benefit from Justice. He was an angry, somewhat selfish guy, and after than he merged with Justice, he has been able to help others, even at the risk of his life (free clinic in the Darktown, for example).
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 4:02:26 GMT
When Anders talks to Merrill, he seems to think her talking with Demons is bad. Solas said the other side of spirit is demon.If Vengence was a pure demon he would control Anders 100% and he doesn't yet Anders calls him Vengence too. So you think that Justice can go between demon and spirit? So he is not pure demon nor spirit? Is that possible? That would be interesting if so. I honestly do not know. It would be nice to know. If the transition from one minute to another, so Justice was demon, when he moved into Anders, or maybe before: when he was in Kristoff's corpse. I think this is a process. (And Cole always afraid, that he'll become Despair. But not immediately, as I see...)
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 4:24:31 GMT
I honestly do not know. It would be nice to know. If the transition from one minute to another, so Justice was demon, when he moved into Anders, or maybe before: when he was in Kristoff's corpse. I think this is a process. (And Cole always afraid, that he'll become Despair. But not immediately, as I see...) I forgot about Cole. That's why he wanted the amulet. Wonder why Wynne never seemed concerned about her spirit going to full demon- maybe cause she was not so angry as Anders? Maybe the spirit has more control over choosing?
As I remember, Wynne was not that confident, what she show herself, but yes, she is very disciplined, and focused. But she also feared from she will become abomination. Cole needed that amulet, because he dont want to be victim of a mage, who want to summon him and control/bound him.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 14, 2016 14:47:40 GMT
In my opinion, yes they are merged, but Anders himself was not very familiar with spirits at the time, so he has a lot of confusion and identity issues as a result. The Circle itself appears to have little information on it, and Templars have no clue either...it would seem that for many humans, in Southern Thedas, a great deal of magical knowledge about spirits was lost after the Veil went up, and again after the Chantry rose to power. Most of their knowledge about spirits seems to be limited to demons, for which the advise is "just don't do it" and the solution consists of killing the mage if it goes wrong...so not very helpful in terms of making a spirit relationship actually work.
Yeah so I think Anders was at a disadvantage from the start, in that he had no real clue what he was doing or how it was supposed to work. DA2 is his journey trying to come to terms with this new personality he has created, successfully or not.
Anyway, so far we have seen that spirits are malleable to a great degree...they can change shape, merge, be split up, fracture, etc. Mythal merged with Flemeth and exists as fragments...it's how she can keep rebuilding herself. There's no reason to think this wouldn't apply to less powerful spirits as well, like Anders and Justice.
As far as being seperated, I think they can be, if Anders wished it, but the end result would not be Anders as he formerly was...but a new split of his current self.
I think the merging was a magical process, and so a transformation of his ego/personality took place. Justice isn't hitched on as an extra parasite or foreign entity. He's part of Anders. The scene in rivalry where Justice pops out angrily would seem to confirm this. At one point he yells at rival Hawke, while still glowing, "I am Anders!"
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 15:19:32 GMT
In my opinion, yes they are merged, but Anders himself was not very familiar with spirits at the time, so he has a lot of confusion and identity issues as a result. The Circle itself appears to have little information on it, and Templars have no clue either...it would seem that for many humans, in Southern Thedas, a great deal of magical knowledge about spirits was lost after the Veil went up, and again after the Chantry rose to power. Most of their knowledge about spirits seems to be limited to demons, for which the advise is "just don't do it" and the solution consists of killing the mage if it goes wrong...so not very helpful in terms of making a spirit relationship actually work. Yeah so I think Anders was at a disadvantage from the start, in that he had no real clue what he was doing or how it was supposed to work. DA2 is his journey trying to come to terms with this new personality he has created, successfully or not. Anyway, so far we have seen that spirits are malleable to a great degree...they can change shape, merge, be split up, fracture, etc. Mythal merged with Flemeth and exists as fragments...it's how she can keep rebuilding herself. There's no reason to think this wouldn't apply to less powerful spirits as well, like Anders and Justice. As far as being seperated, I think they can be, if Anders wished it, but the end result would not be Anders as he formerly was...but a new split of his current self. I think the merging was a magical process, and so a transformation of his ego/personality took place. Justice isn't hitched on as an extra parasite or foreign entity. He's part of Anders. The scene in rivalry where Justice pops out angrily would seem to confirm this. At one point he yells at rival Hawke, while still glowing, "I am Anders!" Exactly this is one of the greatest mistake of the Chantry, because this is a big source of danger: the ignorance/lack of knowledge/withheld knowledge/fear. The distrust of mages against themselves, and the distrust of commoners against the mages. Yes, they are merged, but somehow they still have independent thoughts, as I see.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 14, 2016 15:32:21 GMT
^^^ Yes, it seems like some higher ranking Seekers have more knowledge about it, but it's not widely known to the Templar order or Circle, so a lot of ignorance all around. As far as his independent thoughts. I think it works like a conscious/subconscious sort of thing. Justice is an aspect of Anders, that exists in his subconscious. He comes out in the fade or when frightened, but is always present normally. Anders tells us he feels Justice's thoughts as his own, and he is always listening and he's always "himself". But admittedly....I'm really influenced by Jung, so this goes into my interpretation of the character. I think we all have whole archetypes and different aspects of ourselves burried in the subconscious.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Nov 14, 2016 16:16:18 GMT
Some conversations/banter seemed to indicate they were merged completely, and some that they still had separate thoughts. I wonder if the Avaar would be of any help? They seemed to have the whole possessed by a spirit thing in control. I don't know that Justice would want to be separated from Anders though. He seems to have made himself at home.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 16:35:56 GMT
Some conversations/banter seemed to indicate they were merged completely, and some that they still had separate thoughts. I wonder if the Avaar would be of any help? They seemed to have the whole possessed by a spirit thing in control. I don't know that Justice would want to be separated from Anders though. He seems to have made himself at home. I think, Anders also don't want to risk the separation. At least if he still in harmony with him. Perhaps in rivalry he more inclined to do it. But it definitely feels responsible for him.
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 14, 2016 16:49:13 GMT
Some conversations/banter seemed to indicate they were merged completely, and some that they still had separate thoughts. I wonder if the Avaar would be of any help? They seemed to have the whole possessed by a spirit thing in control. I don't know that Justice would want to be separated from Anders though. He seems to have made himself at home. I think, Anders also don't want to risk the separation. At least if he still in harmony with him. Perhaps in rivalry he more inclined to do it. But it definitely feels responsible for him. My impression was it would leave him weak and at risk for posession again. At one point Hawke has a dialogue option about how they don't want to lose him to either Justice or the Templars, and Anders asks what's left if you strip out both. That implies to me, separation might leave his spirit stripped down to almost nothing, like a wisp. That might be a major reason he doesn't want to do it.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 14, 2016 18:56:37 GMT
I think, Anders also don't want to risk the separation. At least if he still in harmony with him. Perhaps in rivalry he more inclined to do it. But it definitely feels responsible for him. My impression was it would leave him weak and at risk for posession again. At one point Hawke has a dialogue option about how they don't want to lose him to either Justice or the Templars, and Anders asks what's left if you strip out both. That implies to me, separation might leave his spirit stripped down to almost nothing, like a wisp. That might be a major reason he doesn't want to do it. Interesting point, yes. Maybe this is one reason. Anders really strengthened by Justice, and before he was sad, hopeless and lonely (only Karl was who broke this feeling, as I see) In addition, it also confirms by his (rivalry) answer: Yes, I'm possessed, and never felt better. (I only saw this scene once, and now I can't find now, If I remember correctly, this is after the Chantry quest, before or after the pillow scene, I think this exist only on rivalry path)
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Post by Sah291 on Nov 14, 2016 19:38:36 GMT
My impression was it would leave him weak and at risk for posession again. At one point Hawke has a dialogue option about how they don't want to lose him to either Justice or the Templars, and Anders asks what's left if you strip out both. That implies to me, separation might leave his spirit stripped down to almost nothing, like a wisp. That might be a major reason he doesn't want to do it. Interesting point, yes. Maybe this is one reason. Anders really strengthened by Justice, and before he was sad, hopeless and lonely (only Karl was who broke this feeling, as I see) In addition, it also confirms by his (rivalry) answer: Yes, I'm possessed, and never felt better. (I only saw this scene once, and now I can't find now, If I remember correctly, this is after the Chantry quest, before or after the pillow scene, I think this exist only on rivalry path) Yeah, I think he did become stronger....but I mean like, he experienced a profound change to his spirit/soul, not unlike the way a Seeker probably would after being touched by a faith spirit. He's born again. Twice born. Or whatever you want to call that. Karl says it's like he has a piece of the Fade in him. Which sounds a lot like the Inquisitor. Certainly, I think Dragon Age has been playing a lot with this theme about what makes a person a "person"? Is it having a physical body? Having a spirit? One's memories? Etc. So the question of whether Justice and Anders are seperate people, is a little bit complicated.
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Someday a cat will give me magical powers and I'll be married to a werewolf #goals #WerewolfLIforDA4
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Post by Tekehu's booty on Nov 15, 2016 14:38:17 GMT
I beat the game with a friendship (no romance) Anders yesterday, and there are no black out scene, at least I don't remember one, which is worrisome for me because the rivalry path confirms this inner struggle that Anders/Justice have with those blackouts, the blackouts pretty much confirm that Justice is an separate entity of Anders. Maybe the rivalry path help him somehow to not merge with Justice entirely unlike the supporting role that Hawke has in the friendship path which would propitiate the merge completely. I tend to think that my Hawke is like the Jiminy Cricket for the gang, so I'm glad that I chose the rivalry path for my canon world state. I have a save in act 2 to test the friendship romance, but I think I'm gonna rest a little from DA2, the same scenenarios again and again turn me savagely mad
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Post by Catilina on Nov 15, 2016 15:10:10 GMT
I beat the game with a friendship (no romance) Anders yesterday, and there are no black out scene, at least I don't remember one, which is worrisome for me because the rivalry path confirms this inner struggle that Anders/Justice have with those blackouts, the blackouts pretty much confirm that Justice is an separate entity of Anders. Maybe the rivalry path help him somehow to not merge with Justice entirely unlike the supporting role that Hawke has in the friendship path which would propitiate the merge completely. I tend to think that my Hawke is like the Jiminy Cricket for the gang, so I'm glad that I chose the rivalry path for my canon world state. I have a save in act 2 to test the friendship romance, but I think I'm gonna rest a little from DA2, the same scenenarios again and again turn me savagely mad Yes, no black out scene, and that's the point on the friendship path, because Anders live in harmony with Justice, and Justice don't want/need to rule him. I easily to believe, that Anders himself agree with Justice. He blame himself to corrupted Justice... he's not innocent. Maybe you just was not be able to forget the rivalry path's images, when Justice's way to became demon had speed up. They were already merged. The rivalry doesn't help to Anders, just in his hatred toward Justice, and his self-hatred, and make Justice's way easier to become demon. Better to kill him, or leave him alone, then maybe he will be able to reconcile with Justice again. If he stay in rivalry with Justice, Justice will be really dangerous, and Anders will be not able to control himself. Justice will not disappear. But if you want a little chance "happy ending" (if you able to consider happy end, that Justice become demon, and Anders forced to kill him), so rival Anders may be able to ask for exorcism... (Risk: Justice Vengeance will kill him for this thought.) Of course, not excluding, that Justice already was a demon, when he merged with Andres, or Anders had make him demon... but there are many things that contradict this.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 9:28:05 GMT
As far as I can tell, based on Anders`s game behavior in Awakening and DA2, and dialogues (as far as I can remember them) Bioware`s position about Anders/Justice is that the two are still merging, and acting like multiple personalities. It seems that the process takes time. This is why for instance Connor can still be separated.
Anders has a different behavior in DA2 Act 1 compared to DA:OA. This means that Justice`s "part" of his personality is already involved. He acts more like the former Anders when the context is favorable for a light, joking assessment. For instance, the banters with Varric - there the old Anders feels "at home". When the context requires more a "black and white" action, it`s Justice`s turn to be familiar with.
To better understand what I mean, I`ll describe the difference between an emotional and cognitive (rational) assessment of an event. Let`s say you are on a beach,in summer, it`s really hot and you want some refreshments. The only chance to buy some means waiting a long queue. While you`re waiting something hard smashes in your back. You turn around to hit the attacker and recognize your invalid neighbor in his wheelchair. Not only you don`t beat him up, but also you agree to buy him refreshments. The first reaction was an emotional assessment, which is about how dangerous is the event. The emotional system considered it as "life threatening" so you turn around, prepared to fight. The second (final) assessment was a cognitive one, based on processing the whole visual image and recognizing your neighbor and that he`s no threat.
If we use this way to recognize when Anders/Justice is more Anders or more Justice, it becomes clear that by the Act 3 Anders/Justice is more merged, and the old Anders is rarely available. But it`s the same with the old Justice. Anders/Justice has become an almost integrated entity, thinking and reacting differently from both Anders and Justice.
My personal explanation is based on my view of any Thedas living creature: that everything alive in Thedas has a soul similar to a fade creature (this is why dreams happen in the Fade). So the merging of Anders and Justice means the fusion of two souls. Each had a different view about the surrounding events, but as the fusion progressed, these differences gradually disappeared. I don`t think that Justice became a demon who possessed Anders. Anders/Justice is a different being, a fusion of the two, with a different personality, views and actions.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 12:57:40 GMT
As far as I can tell, based on Anders`s game behavior in Awakening and DA2, and dialogues (as far as I can remember them) Bioware`s position about Anders/Justice is that the two are still merging, and acting like multiple personalities. It seems that the process takes time. This is why for instance Connor can still be separated. Anders has a different behavior in DA2 Act 1 compared to DA:OA. This means that Justice`s "part" of his personality is already involved. He acts more like the former Anders when the context is favorable for a light, joking assessment. For instance, the banters with Varric - there the old Anders feels "at home". When the context requires more a "black and white" action, it`s Justice`s turn to be familiar with. To better understand what I mean, I`ll describe the difference between an emotional and cognitive (rational) assessment of an event. Let`s say you are on a beach,in summer, it`s really hot and you want some refreshments. The only chance to buy some means waiting a long queue. While you`re waiting something hard smashes in your back. You turn around to hit the attacker and recognize your invalid neighbor in his wheelchair. Not only you don`t beat him up, but also you agree to buy him refreshments. The first reaction was an emotional assessment, which is about how dangerous is the event. The emotional system considered it as "life threatening" so you turn around, prepared to fight. The second (final) assessment was a cognitive one, based on processing the whole visual image and recognizing your neighbor and that he`s no threat. If we use this way to recognize when Anders/Justice is more Anders or more Justice, it becomes clear that by the Act 3 Anders/Justice is more merged, and the old Anders is rarely available. But it`s the same with the old Justice. Anders/Justice has become an almost integrated entity, thinking and reacting differently from both Anders and Justice. My personal explanation is based on my view of any Thedas living creature: that everything alive in Thedas has a soul similar to a fade creature (this is why dreams happen in the Fade). So the merging of Anders and Justice means the fusion of two souls. Each had a different view about the surrounding events, but as the fusion progressed, these differences gradually disappeared. I don`t think that Justice became a demon who possessed Anders. Anders/Justice is a different being, a fusion of the two, with a different personality, views and actions. Anders in the Act1 said, that they are already merged: "He’s gone now, he’s part of me. It’s not like we can… have conversation, I feel his thought as my own. Not even the greatest scolar could tell you, where I end and he begins.", so, the process already done, but they still have independent thoughts. In Act 3 Anders prepare to a terrible deed, he know that. Consider it as necessary, but still terrible. So: what a psychopath would be able to behave "normally", while plan such a thing? This is human reaction. Anders no too good with deception, and Justice/Vengeance cant help with this. Anders behave more strange, as usually. Anders urges Hawke, he want to get over it, as quickly as possible. (This is the friendly version!) Who wants, suggested the explosion as tool? Justice? Justice don't know, what's mean waiting, he dont understand the time. Justice not able to lie, deception –probably Vengeance also (not this his purpose)–, Anders able to lie, and able deception (true, he's lame) – so, I can imagine, that Justice/Vengeance want action, but Anders selected what kind of action. Anders about Justice and the deception (After the Fade scene, if Hawke dealt with sloth demon): (I now speak about the possibility, that Justice still spirit, not demon.) There are a critical point, where Justice finally can turn into demon is after the explosion, after the murder of innocents for their goal. This isn't the pure justice, there unjust happened. Justice worked against his purpose. So: he (and Anders, ofc) must be punished. This is why Justice accept Hawke's death sentence, and don't try to protect Anders again. Their goal succeed, but the unjust happened, and the innocents need justice too. (Act3) Anders: There is justice in the world. Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people. What about them? Don't they then deserve justice? Anders: Yes. [...] (Awakening) Justice: You have not paid for your crime yet, mortal. Nathaniel: Still stewing over that, are you? Justice: You have been freed, but you have not offered penance. Nathaniel: Isn't being forced to listen to you, penance enough? So: Justice want punishment, because they deserved punishment, and he able to leave his body, and return to Fade (probably he can't, thus he need to return as a new spirit, without memory, if Solas told correct...) Yes. Dangerous to spare Anders/Justice's life, because at this point –if it is not already happened before–, Justice can become a demon, its a great chance. But perhaps Justice learned from Nathaniel's case: there are mercy... (Justice already learned some human attitude frim Kristoff's memory, from Warden's company before.) This is my theory, perhaps too bright, sunshine and rainbow ... ugh! But still not excluded. And why Vengeance, a demon don't want to save his body?
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 13:41:05 GMT
Anders in the Act1 said, that they are already merged: "He’s gone now, he’s part of me. It’s not like we can… have conversation, I feel his thought as my own. Not even the greatest scolar could tell you, where I end and he begins.", so, the process already done, but they still have independent thoughts. Anders/Justice is the most complex character in DA2, and I like how it was written. In my post I have separated what BW probably did - using the idea of multiple personalities to build up Anders - and my personal ideas. Anders and Justice merged, but not in an instant. If so, Connor would have been already lost, because he accepted willingly the demon. Since BW appears to use the dual personality theme for Anders, I am thinking that they considered that Anders`s and Justice`s "personalities" are still not completely fused into one new personality by the time Anders meets Hawke. Anders`s behavior is slowly changing in every act. I noticed this in my every play. It`s subtle, but the change is there. I don`t think Justice is turning into a demon. Justice doesn`t seem to try controlling Anders, like it happened with the desire demon and Connor. The Justice part is changing because it started to experience the complexity of living life (Thedas) compared to the simplicity of the Fade. His dual thinking is difficult to apply in an environment with complex, nuanced behavior. So the Justice part of Anders/Justice possibly started to set up priorities, trying to narrow down the complexity of life into dual options for action. But the real world is still too complex for Justice, and this complexity changes him. My guess is that "Vengeance" is Anders`s way to describe the transformation Justice`s "personality" is suffering. All this of course is a lot of guesswork and extrapolation. Interesting and exciting for me to do such analysis. By the way, there is a game on Steam called "Her Story" concerning multiple personalities. It`s a very odd game - all you can do is watch an old computer screen from the early `90s and search for very short interview fragments about a woman whose husband disappeared. You can watch the trailer on youtube: And there is also the entire interview with all fragments in order. Your task is to find out what happened, but there is no real closure, just a "messenger" dialogue at the end. A very strange game but I liked it. It`s best played not alone, because after each video fragment a lot of discussions will start.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 14:25:50 GMT
Anders in the Act1 said, that they are already merged: "He’s gone now, he’s part of me. It’s not like we can… have conversation, I feel his thought as my own. Not even the greatest scolar could tell you, where I end and he begins.", so, the process already done, but they still have independent thoughts. Anders/Justice is the most complex character in DA2, and I like how it was written. In my post I have separated what BW probably did - using the idea of multiple personalities to build up Anders - and my personal ideas. Anders and Justice merged, but not in an instant. If so, Connor would have been already lost, because he accepted willingly the demon. Since BW appears to use the dual personality theme for Anders, I am thinking that they considered that Anders`s and Justice`s "personalities" are still not completely fused into one new personality by the time Anders meets Hawke. Anders`s behavior is slowly changing in every act. I noticed this in my every play. It`s subtle, but the change is there. I don`t think Justice is turning into a demon. Justice doesn`t seem to try controlling Anders, like it happened with the desire demon and Connor. The Justice part is changing because it started to experience the complexity of living life (Thedas) compared to the simplicity of the Fade. His dual thinking is difficult to apply in an environment with complex, nuanced behavior. So the Justice part of Anders/Justice possibly started to set up priorities, trying to narrow down the complexity of life into dual options for action. But the real world is still too complex for Justice, and this complexity changes him. My guess is that "Vengeance" is Anders`s way to describe the transformation Justice`s "personality" is suffering. All this of course is a lot of guesswork and extrapolation. Interesting and exciting for me to do such analysis. By the way, there is a game on Steam called "Her Story" concerning multiple personalities. It`s a very odd game - all you can do is watch an old computer screen from the early `90s and search for very short interview fragments about a woman whose husband disappeared. You can watch the trailer on youtube: And there is also the entire interview with all fragments in order. Your task is to find out what happened, but there is no real closure, just a "messenger" dialogue at the end. A very strange game but I liked it. It`s best played not alone, because after each video fragment a lot of discussions will start. Yes, the merger is a process, we don't know, how much time need to finish. But Anders felt they are already merged. More or less? We can't decide, what exactly happened. To be sure, they still learning to live together (the rivalry makes it harder). Anders increasingly behaving strangely? (More sad...) This may be (also) attributed to (1) he killed his friend/ex-lover (he came to rescue him), (2) he (almost) killed Ella (he came to rescue her). What reason would have been happier/same kind like before? His changes have simple human reason. This isn't sure, just another option. The depression not required a demon ... (I heard from this game bafore, but never tried, probably I will, thanks, seems interesting.)
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 14:59:14 GMT
I think they merged in part when Hawke meets Anders, but not completely. Anders is still reacting like the old self when joking, but Justice is the first to react when there is a potential threat (when Hawke first enter the Darktown clinic) or injustice (when the templars appear during the "rescuing Karl" mission. By Act 3 Anders is just driven by his quest. Nothing else matters for him, not even cats or a good banter with Varric. This is why I consider that the fusion is much more advanced in Act 3. I don`t know it it`s complete, but looks more advanced. Anders`s speech at the time of the Chantry destruction is just great. He shows elements of both Anders (vulnerability, emotion) and Justice`s dual logic - "I removed the compromise, because there is no compromise".
About "Her Story": try researching a bit, of read reviews (I played it, so I can help) because it`s not a typical game. There is no interaction, just tasting keywords for search. You`ve got only two short "discussions" on that old computer "messenger". There is no revealing end. The game ends when you decide it`s enough.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 16:10:25 GMT
I think they merged in part when Hawke meets Anders, but not completely. Anders is still reacting like the old self when joking, but Justice is the first to react when there is a potential threat (when Hawke first enter the Darktown clinic) or injustice (when the templars appear during the "rescuing Karl" mission. By Act 3 Anders is just driven by his quest. Nothing else matter for him, not even cats or a good banter with Varric. This is why I consider that the fusion is much more advanced in Act 3. I don`t know it it`s complete, but looks more advanced. Anders`s speech at the time of the Chantry destruction is just great. He shows elements of both Anders (vulnerability, emotion) and Justice`s dual logic - "I removed the compromise, because there is no compromise". About "Her Story": try researching a bit, of read reviews (I played it, so I can help) because it`s not a typical game. There is no interaction, just tasting keywords for search. You`ve got only two short "discussions" on that old computer "messenger". There is no revealing end. The game ends when you decide it`s enough. Yes, as in Inquisition, Anders-supporter Hawke said (no matter, how I hate to hear this sentence from the mouth of a lover of Anders – as a objective friend, I can imagine... somehow) so: "He's not a monster, nor a hero. Maybe he's both."As I said: yes, in Act 3 Anders can only deal with the "cause", and he believe, that he is the cause of the mages, this statement of him is creepy, no doubt, but still van be human reaction, both of them. 1. He lost his sense of humor, because it's not funny, wehat he want to do. In fact, this is a huge burden to bear. He never was too good in deception. He is very uptight, and I not wonder. 2. He declared himself to "cause of the mages". Seems crazy. Let's see a possible (more normal) reason: He still not sure about this is necessary. ("No! Talk of mages! Give her one final chance to hear, what we have suffered. To pick a side.") He must to prove even to himself, that there is no other way, and he is the one, who MUST to do. This perhaps Justice's influence, yes, but Anders' voice. This similar than "I removed the compromise, because there is no compromise". Where to start the confident Justice, and where ends the uncertain Anders? This is the point: neiter Hawke "scolars" – as Anders said), nor Anders can decide already. But Anders the human, didn't disappeared: in the scene, when the Chantry exploded, he's determined, uncertain, sad, remorseful, resigned at the same time. Suppose that the determined Anders was rather Justice (yes, he flared for a while), but the sad Anders was the human. So: they are merged, but still exist both.I like the friendship path, when Anders assumes responsibility for what he did, because, I think, he wanted this, not only Justice. This was the reason, why he offered his body to Justice. And he knew that. Too easy to relieve him (many fans do it), and blame Justice, but Anders no more innocent as Justice. True, he have emotions, Justice not really. This Anders not that "nice, funny" boy. This is sarcasm. And anger. I do not believe that he was who killed the Templars, rather the darkspawns. But he would have done it. And he said to Justice, when Justice asked him, why he don't do anything for his fellow mages: he is coward, not he is too good.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 17:02:18 GMT
Yes, as in Inquisition, Anders-supporter Hawke said (no matter, how I hate to hear this sentence from the mouth of a lover of Anders – as a objective friend, I can imagine... somehow) so: "He's not a monster, nor a hero. Maybe he's both."Bioware offered us a few examples of "merged" mages like Flemeth and Wynne (both being also book characters). Neither is insane and loony. Or a monster. Flemeth is completely merged. She is strange, but still has human behavior. Wynne in DA:O was perhaps at the start of a merging, despite the fact that her relationship with the spirit was much longer. I think BW presented in DA2 a part of this "merging" process with Anders - not per se, but as part of his role in the plot. To reduce Anders/Justice at the level of a demon possession is cheap and simplistic. The "easy way out", something apparently simple to understand. But think about Flemeth, for instance. Is she simple? Is she merged with Mythal (who was an elf) the same way as Anders with Justice, or Wynne with her guardian spirit? In that case, what I posted before about every person in Thedas (elf, dwarf, human, qunari) having a soul similar to a complex, Fade spirit with conscience seems correct. Anders at the final confrontation is not a dual personality character, but closer to Flemeth - a being with two "integrated" souls, and one "merged" personality. Compare That Anders scene with the ones from Act 1 and with the two DA2 Flemeth scenes. The companions (Hawke included) don`t know anything about such a fusion of souls, so Isabela`s jokes like "Hello, Anders here ?" are fun, but mean nothing. Anders plan was not his, Justice`s, but the plan of a common personality. This is why Anders was both emotional and logical - using the dual logic of Justice. His solution was the one made available by the Anders/Justice thinking. And it`s not about doing a deliberate terror act. But the act of a desperate being, searching for a solution. Anders/Justice alone against both the Chantry and the Templar Order. I`m sure you have watched that scene (Anders confronting Meredith and Orsino) many times, but do it again, and look for the signs.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 18:50:47 GMT
Yes, as in Inquisition, Anders-supporter Hawke said (no matter, how I hate to hear this sentence from the mouth of a lover of Anders – as a objective friend, I can imagine... somehow) so: "He's not a monster, nor a hero. Maybe he's both."Bioware offered us a few examples of "merged" mages like Flemeth and Wynne (both being also book characters). Neither is insane and loony. Or a monster. Flemeth is completely merged. She is strange, but still has human behavior. Wynne in DA:O was perhaps at the start of a merging, despite the fact that her relationship with the spirit was much longer. I think BW presented in DA2 a part of this "merging" process with Anders - not per se, but as part of his role in the plot. To reduce Anders/Justice at the level of a demon possession is cheap and simplistic. The "easy way out", something apparently simple to understand. But think about Flemeth, for instance. Is she simple? Is she merged with Mythal (who was an elf) the same way as Anders with Justice, or Wynne with her guardian spirit? In that case, what I posted before about every person in Thedas (elf, dwarf, human, qunari) having a soul similar to a complex, Fade spirit with conscience seems correct. Anders at the final confrontation is not a dual personality character, but closer to Flemeth - a being with two "integrated" souls, and one "merged" personality. Compare That Anders scene with the ones from Act 1 and with the two DA2 Flemeth scenes. The companions (Hawke included) don`t know anything about such a fusion of souls, so Isabela`s jokes like "Hello, Anders here ?" are fun, but mean nothing. Anders plan was not his, Justice`s, but the plan of a common personality. This is why Anders was both emotional and logical - using the dual logic of Justice. His solution was the one made available by the Anders/Justice thinking. And it`s not about doing a deliberate terror act. But the act of a desperate being, searching for a solution. Anders/Justice alone against both the Chantry and the Templar Order. I`m sure you have watched that scene (Anders confronting Meredith and Orsino) many times, but do it again, and look for the signs. I'm not sure, what is FleMythal exactly. I think not a "simple" possessed one, as Wynne or Anders. Morrigan also belive first, that Flemeth is an Abomination, but later –as she said– considered her as non-human or something. I wonder what will happen with Anders/Justice, although slightly afraid of being disappointed ... As I said, I'm not sure, that how the process going, already finished, or never will totally. So: I'm open for the discuss/ideas. I just watch, and try to find some explain. (Or defend mine, If I see, that's better.) I brought Anders to Meredith and Orsino, I saw him "normal", not worse/stranger, than before; he was provocative, but this happened quite often. At Orsino, he was able to joke again, this was refreshing, but perhaps, relieved? Because finally something may happening? Or? (Probably no significance...) UPDATE:One thing (but I dont know, what prove, the merger has been completed or not...) Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old. Anders: This is past time for joking. Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you. Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that. Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play? Anders: [Justice voice] Stop. Varric: You are no fun anymore.
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Post by phoray on Jan 30, 2017 22:56:18 GMT
^^^ That's a creepy banter I've never heard.
I meant to put a big Evidence post in this thread, but I haven't touched DA2 since I began the thread. So, the "evidence" is not currently available. My next planned PT of DA2 is a Merril Mance, and I haven't fleshed out th echaracter much other than being female and romancing Merril. But the Rivalry path is where all the good evidence is, so I'll have to wait for that kind of Hawke to really dig.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 30, 2017 23:16:08 GMT
^^^ That's a creepy banter I've never heard. I meant to put a big Evidence post in this thread, but I haven't touched DA2 since I began the thread. So, the "evidence" is not currently available. My next planned PT of DA2 is a Merril Mance, and I haven't fleshed out th echaracter much other than being female and romancing Merril. But the Rivalry path is where all the good evidence is, so I'll have to wait for that kind of Hawke to really dig. I often heard, and yes, undoubtedly creepy, and have two explain (again, ofc...): a demon version, and a spirit version. The demon version is clear: Anders not himself anymore. The spirit version is: Anders uptight, and does not feel good from Varric's banter. This is already the truth, not fun anymore. Justice feel that, and came out to stop Varric. He's harmless, but creepy. +1 The merger finished, and Anders/Justice just shouted at Varric, because was not in the mood to joke...
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 31, 2017 1:33:32 GMT
I brought Anders to Meredith and Orsino, I saw him "normal", not worse/stranger, than before; he was provocative, but this happened quite often. At Orsino, he was able to joke again, this was refreshing, but perhaps, relieved? Because finally something may happening? Or? (Probably no significance...) One thing (but I dont know, what prove, the merger has been completed or not...) Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old. Anders: This is past time for joking. Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you. Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that. Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play? Anders: [Justice voice] Stop. Varric: You are no fun anymore. The scene with Orsino is very useful, because being in a Mage Circle, among mages, with no templar in sight is the most familiar environment for Anders. The fact that Anders/Justice is able to make jokes (a bit forced and lame, compared with his old self, but still) means that Anders reacts closer to the way he behaved in Ferelden`s Circle - relaxed and joking among friends, trying to pretend that the world is a funny place. It`s perhaps the last environment for Anders to behave this way - he is no longer able to banter and joke with Varric. The dialogue posted above between Anders and Varric shows that Anders is now obsessed with Meredith and the injustice suffered by mages. This is how Justice "works". If you have noticed, this driven behavior intensifies progressively from Act 1. The obsession with Meredith/templars evolves like Act1 < Act2 < Act3. It`s not that Justice takes control, but Anders is so obsessed with his task that nothing else matters. He is able to forget all that drive for a few moments in the Circle. Remember, he grew up in the Calenhad Tower, and wasn`t in a Circle for many years. Anders must have been very happy in those few minutes, in Orsino`s office. So this is a much more merged Anders than in Act1. And as you said, the idea of "removing the compromise" came from the "Justice" part, but the execution (using explosives to blew up the Chantry) came from the "Anders" part. But these are not separated, but more like parts of a whole. Like how you are using both your legs for walking/running, or both hands for complex actions, like writing on your computer, or playing games.
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