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Post by adrianbc on Jan 31, 2017 1:40:45 GMT
^^^ That's a creepy banter I've never heard. A bit spirity perhaps There are different forms of evidence. We were discussing the behavioral evidence - how Anders behaves in each scene from Act1 to Act3. These are useful if anything else is vague, since there are just a few scenes, and each was very carefully directed and acted. The scenes with companions are essential for DA2. I have a lot of experience with behavior analysis, and it`s doable. Even in case of an acted scene, not a natural behavior.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 31, 2017 2:28:27 GMT
I brought Anders to Meredith and Orsino, I saw him "normal", not worse/stranger, than before; he was provocative, but this happened quite often. At Orsino, he was able to joke again, this was refreshing, but perhaps, relieved? Because finally something may happening? Or? (Probably no significance...)
One thing (but I dont know, what prove, the merger has been completed or not...) Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old. Anders: This is past time for joking. Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you. Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that. Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play? Anders: [Justice voice] Stop. Varric: You are no fun anymore. The scene with Orsino is very useful, because being in a Mage Circle, among mages, with no templar in sight is the most familiar environment for Anders. The fact that Anders/Justice is able to make jokes (a bit forced and lame, compared with his old self, but still) means that Anders reacts closer to the way he behaved in Ferelden`s Circle - relaxed and joking among friends, trying to pretend that the world is a funny place. It`s perhaps the last environment for Anders to behave this way - he is no longer able to banter and joke with Varric. The dialogue posted above between Anders and Varric shows that Anders is now obsessed with Meredith and the injustice suffered by mages. This is how Justice "works". If you have noticed, this driven behavior intensifies progressively from Act 1. The obsession with Meredith/templars evolves like Act1 < Act2 < Act3. It`s not that Justice takes control, but Anders is so obsessed with his task that nothing else matters. He is able to forget all that drive for a few moments in the Circle. Remember, he grew up in the Calenhad Tower, and wasn`t in a Circle for many years. Anders must have been very happy in those few minutes, in Orsino`s office. So this is a much more merged Anders than in Act1. And as you said, the idea of "removing the compromise" came from the "Justice" part, but the execution (using explosives to blew up the Chantry) came from the "Anders" part. But these are not separated, but more like parts of a whole. Like how you are using both your legs for walking/running, or both hands for complex actions, like writing on your computer, or playing games. 1. Perhaps Anders felt at home in the Gallows, but this "home" was terrible (except Karl – as long as they were together, Anders has not attempted to escape), so, I think not really this would be the possible reason to make jokes, more likely, that because of Orsino's a mage, but probably more importantly that finally something happened in his purpose. (At Gallows he says, that he feel uncomfortable – if I remember correctly) 2. As I see, this two part of him was one also in Act 1, when Justice wanted to save Anders' clinic from the "invaders". I don't see much different: Justice flared, and Anders back. Of course since then the merger has been probably stronger, I'm not sure, where Anders end and Justice begins... Yes, Anders already totally obessed, and he prepare to explosion, because of Meredith and mages. This isn't funny, even without Justice. Anders possessed, but not psychopath. So: the increase of Justice's influence is not the only explanation for the fact that Anders stranger than before. Don't forget, that Ella's case can be undermined Anders' trust on Justice (this may different if Anders killed Ella or not, and in friendship/rivalry relationship: friendly Hawke can calm down Anders, and help to repair this "relationship", rival Hawke even more confusing him about Justice), so: it is also a contributing factor in getting gloomier. But true, that as they approach the outcome of their purpose, Justice's influence increase, because Justice does not want to have anything to distract Anders' attention. This is also Act3 party banter (he still can be nice, if want...): Anders: You're not nearly as selfish as you pretend. Isabela: Hey! You take that back! Anders: You had your relic. You were gone. There was no reason for you to come back and face the Qunari. Isabela: I still don't have a ship. I thought I could get one. Anders: From a bunch of shipwrecked Qunari? Isabela: From the Viscount. I just got here late. Anders: I always knew you had a heart of gold. Isabela: Shh! Don't tell anyone.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 31, 2017 7:48:52 GMT
1. Perhaps Anders felt at home in the Gallows, but this "home" was terrible (except Karl – as long as they were together, Anders has not attempted to escape), so, I think not really this would be the possible reason to make jokes, more likely, that because of Orsino's a mage, but probably more importantly that finally something happened in his purpose. (At Gallows he says, that he feel uncomfortable – if I remember correctly) 2. As I see, this two part of him was one also in Act 1, when Justice wanted to save Anders' clinic from the "invaders". I don't see much different: Justice flared, and Anders back. Of course since then the merger has been probably stronger, I'm not sure, where Anders end and Justice begins... Yes, Anders already totally obessed, and he prepare to explosion, because of Meredith and mages. This isn't funny, even without Justice. Anders possessed, but not psychopath. So: the increase of Justice's influence is not the only explanation for the fact that Anders stranger than before. Don't forget, that Ella's case can be undermined Anders' trust on Justice (this may different if Anders killed Ella or not, and in friendship/rivalry relationship: friendly Hawke can calm down Anders, and help to repair this "relationship", rival Hawke even more confusing him about Justice), so: it is also a contributing factor in getting gloomier. But true, that as they approach the outcome of their purpose, Justice's influence increase, because Justice does not want to have anything to distract Anders' attention. This is also Act3 party banter (he still can be nice, if want...): Anders: You're not nearly as selfish as you pretend. Isabela: Hey! You take that back! Anders: You had your relic. You were gone. There was no reason for you to come back and face the Qunari. Isabela: I still don't have a ship. I thought I could get one. Anders: From a bunch of shipwrecked Qunari? Isabela: From the Viscount. I just got here late. Anders: I always knew you had a heart of gold. Isabela: Shh! Don't tell anyone. It`s not about the Gallows, but ORSINO`S OFFICE. Anders always hated to live in a Circle, he tried to escape since he was a kid. But in the same time he made friends among mages in the Calenhad Tower. The context in which Anders feels happy is BEING AMONG MAGES in a Circle, not BEING IN A CIRCLE. Anders acts gloomier than usual in the Gallows, EXCEPT ORSINO`S OFFICE - which reminds him to the happy moments spent among mages in the Calenhad Tower. It`s a very important difference. Anders doesn`t behave as possessed in Act 3. His behavior resembles Justice`s because he became driven, obsessed by the injustice happening in the Gallows. This is the context in which Anders operates in Act 3. It`s not that Justice is always out and "guarding" Anders against any "interference" - from instance from his companions. Anders and Justice are now more closely fused, and as a result Anders react in Act 3 similar to Justice from the Fade part of the Blackmarsh quest (Awakening). He faces a great injustice and works tirelessly for a solution. There is no "demon at work" here. As for the differences between a befriended or rivaled Anders: unfortunately BW neglected the consequences, because they wanted ONLY one outcome: Anders destroys the Chantry. So these nuances were mostly discarded in the final crisis. It would have been great to see a rivaled or befiended Anders reacting very differently in the final crisis scene.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 31, 2017 15:27:34 GMT
1. Perhaps Anders felt at home in the Gallows, but this "home" was terrible (except Karl – as long as they were together, Anders has not attempted to escape), so, I think not really this would be the possible reason to make jokes, more likely, that because of Orsino's a mage, but probably more importantly that finally something happened in his purpose. (At Gallows he says, that he feel uncomfortable – if I remember correctly) 2. As I see, this two part of him was one also in Act 1, when Justice wanted to save Anders' clinic from the "invaders". I don't see much different: Justice flared, and Anders back. Of course since then the merger has been probably stronger, I'm not sure, where Anders end and Justice begins... Yes, Anders already totally obessed, and he prepare to explosion, because of Meredith and mages. This isn't funny, even without Justice. Anders possessed, but not psychopath. So: the increase of Justice's influence is not the only explanation for the fact that Anders stranger than before. Don't forget, that Ella's case can be undermined Anders' trust on Justice (this may different if Anders killed Ella or not, and in friendship/rivalry relationship: friendly Hawke can calm down Anders, and help to repair this "relationship", rival Hawke even more confusing him about Justice), so: it is also a contributing factor in getting gloomier. But true, that as they approach the outcome of their purpose, Justice's influence increase, because Justice does not want to have anything to distract Anders' attention. This is also Act3 party banter (he still can be nice, if want...): Anders: You're not nearly as selfish as you pretend. Isabela: Hey! You take that back! Anders: You had your relic. You were gone. There was no reason for you to come back and face the Qunari. Isabela: I still don't have a ship. I thought I could get one. Anders: From a bunch of shipwrecked Qunari? Isabela: From the Viscount. I just got here late. Anders: I always knew you had a heart of gold. Isabela: Shh! Don't tell anyone. It`s not about the Gallows, but ORSINO`S OFFICE. Anders always hated to live in a Circle, he tried to escape since he was a kid. But in the same time he made friends among mages in the Calenhad Tower. The context in which Anders feels happy is BEING AMONG MAGES in a Circle, not BEING IN A CIRCLE. Anders acts gloomier than usual in the Gallows, EXCEPT ORSINO`S OFFICE - which reminds him to the happy moments spent among mages in the Calenhad Tower. It`s a very important difference. Anders doesn`t behave as possessed in Act 3. His behavior resembles Justice`s because he became driven, obsessed by the injustice happening in the Gallows. This is the context in which Anders operates in Act 3. It`s not that Justice is always out and "guarding" Anders against any "interference" - from instance from his companions. Anders and Justice are now more closely fused, and as a result Anders react in Act 3 similar to Justice from the Fade part of the Blackmarsh quest (Awakening). He faces a great injustice and works tirelessly for a solution. There is no "demon at work" here. As for the differences between a befriended or rivaled Anders: unfortunately BW neglected the consequences, because they wanted ONLY one outcome: Anders destroys the Chantry. So these nuances were mostly discarded in the final crisis. It would have been great to see a rivaled or befiended Anders reacting very differently in the final crisis scene. I didn't heard Anders speak about friends except Karl. Yes, he have some sex partners with loose relationship, but not real friends. "Once I had a friend, like you" don't means, he have much friends. He spoke about this "happy" moments quite bitter. And what he has said to Émile in the Hanged Man, was sarcasm. Probably he feel sympathy toward Orsino, but not nostalgia toward Circle, Irving's office (he dislikes/hates[?] Irving). Based on his Circle-memory, he can feel rather unconfortable, than comfortable. The fact, that he make joke here, rather about his changed situation: that the he can come into the Grand Enchanter's office as a free mage, and he can give favor to Grand Enchanter but he not MUST do this. The exposion is bound to the story, but you're true, I also would have welcomed a greater difference between rivalry and friendship or support/refuse Anders. But Hawke could help him willingly, then the player wouldn't feel that Hawke so impotent. This feeling is must have for the atmosphere of the game. I think, that Anders assume responsibility or passes the blame to Justice was pretty significant. And at the end, if rival-Hawke spare his life, that he considered Justice as monster (templar side), and similar end-battle conversation as friendship path (mage side). True, this latter is weird for me, but still can means, that Anders/Justice won finally, no matter the cost (Anders almost lost his trust in Justice).
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 8:43:54 GMT
Catilina The time spent by Anders in the Calenhad Tower was generally bad, but not completely bad. Compare Anders`s and Sigrun`s reactions in DA:OA (when Anders is not yet Anders/Justice). Sigrun`s happy comments are a bit childish, as she learned how to react in happy circumstances when she was young, and the forgot about such a mental state. Anders`s jokes are sophisticated, made by an adult, not a 12 years old child (before taken to the Circle). So Anders practiced his humor in the Circle, meaning he had some happy moments among mages, and can remember such moments. The encounter with Orsino in First Enchanter`s office is a trigger - an event which makes such happy memories available. Orsino is a mage, in a Circle. And Orsino jokes - this is the trigger. So Anders jokes again, for a brief moment. It`s just behavior analysis, as I said before. And I think my analysis is correct, since Bioware was well aware about the fact that fans will scrutinize every single dialogue in DA2, after they received similar comments for DA:O dialogues. So I think dialogues in DA2 were very carefully designed.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 12:04:57 GMT
Catilina The time spent by Anders in the Calenhad Tower was generally bad, but not completely bad. Compare Anders`s and Sigrun`s reactions in DA:OA (when Anders is not yet Anders/Justice). Sigrun`s happy comments are a bit childish, as she learned how to react in happy circumstances when she was young, and the forgot about such a mental state. Anders`s jokes are sophisticated, made by an adult, not a 12 years old child (before taken to the Circle). So Anders practiced his humor in the Circle, meaning he had some happy moments among mages, and can remember such moments. The encounter with Orsino in First Enchanter`s office is a trigger - an event which makes such happy memories available. Orsino is a mage, in a Circle. And Orsino jokes - this is the trigger. So Anders jokes again, for a brief moment. It`s just behavior analysis, as I said before. And I think my analysis is correct, since Bioware was well aware about the fact that fans will scrutinize every single dialogue in DA2, after they received similar comments for DA:O dialogues. So I think dialogues in DA2 were very carefully designed. Anders practices his humour, because he needed jokes for survival (from several aspects). There are banter, between Fenris and him: Fenris: Is there something you want, Anders? Anders: You really don't have the temperament for a slave. Fenris: Is that a compliment or an insult? Anders: I'm just wondering how your master didn't kill you. Fenris: How have the templars not killed you? Anders: I'm charming.This is not the best banter of the game, but a good proof to Anders behavior: the funny, charming boy's role was already usually a survival tactics (before the Circle Anders was a popular boy in his village, I think, he had good interpersonal abilities, and this was his original nature too, and used by survival tool in the Circle). Probably thanks to his sense of humour and behavior, Irving and the Templars were considered him harmless. Yes, I'm sure, that he have some closer buddies too, but this relationships was not really deep friendships. And he have some good moments in Circle, no doubt (for example the slaves, the seriously ill people also can found good moments, there are relatively few people live without some good moments, in a terrible life as well). Perhaps the life in the Circle wasn't that cruel for everyone (in Ferelden, at least), as Anders saw, but his viewpoint this was clearly unbearable. What Anders said to Hawke in romance, from the love-relationships in the circle, –as I see– could be apply at a his friendship relations as well. (Fenris' comment about the close friendship/love relationship was similar.) This means: never let anyone get too close to yourself, because by your weakness you give a weapon to your enemy. So: Anders haven't close friends in the Circle, or very few. This is why so hard to imagine to me, that his joke came from his good memories of the Ferelden Circle. Not excluded, that the "familiar" environment contributed, but if this is true, much more imaginable, that triggered a defensive reaction (joke). Sarcastic Hawke and Orsino's joke positive, yes, that would be a better explanation. And his changed circumstances.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 12:45:45 GMT
Anders practices his humor, because he needed jokes for survival (from several aspects). It`s important to distinguish between sarcasm and humor in Anders`s case. Then it will become clearer why Anders was kind of happy when he says "I`ll pay to see this". And yes, a joking Hawke is needed too...
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