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Post by Natashina on Nov 26, 2016 23:49:10 GMT
Let me get this out of the way: This is not a thread requesting the return of any previous PC. The Warden's story is done for the player. Hawke is now currently helping Varric. The IQ is now like Rick Allen from Def Leppard. So please don't take this thread in that direction.
This isn't about that. I know that the point of the Dragon Age games are more about the overarching story than about one hero. I'm finding that it feels like it's getting old. Plus, they love to put them on a bus:
Warden if living: MIA somewhere in Ferelden. Hawke: MIA until s/he shows up at Skyhold. Inquisition: Well, at least s/he didn't just up and vanish. Also has a damned good reason to retire from adventuring.
Again, I know that DA is more about the world than the PC. That being said, I'd love to get attached to a DA player character for more than one game. What do you guys think?
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Post by colfoley on Nov 26, 2016 23:58:10 GMT
Yes they should continue doing so, at least for the forseable future until they can come out with a protag who can survive their game without loosing significant parts of their anatomy...etc.
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Post by mattig89ch on Nov 27, 2016 0:39:53 GMT
I agree with colfoley. Its good that they aren't pulling an assassins creed, and sticking with the same protagonist over and over. I was so sick of etzio by the end, that I had to watch an LP of the last game he was in. I couldn't finish that game.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 0:41:30 GMT
I get that Natashina... though my own opinion on it has changed over the 3 games. I remember when DA2 was announced, I was disappointed that the Warden couldn't be a part of it. But 3 games later, and a pile of playthroughs, that format has grown on me. At this point, I'm actually looking forward to that fresh start, with a new character, and a new background. You kinda see the world with fresh eyes each game (if that makes any sense). And you don't need some contrived reason to knock your PC back to a 1st level noob every adventure. Also, there's a risk if you're not keen on the PC him/herself. It could affect your enjoyment of future games. Or after X number of games, if the ending of your PC's story isn't what you had hoped, it could affect your opinion on the series overall too. But on the other hand, you don't have the continuity you get with a single protag, or get to build on your companion/NPC relationships, or bask in the sunlight of your (ever-growing) fame... And you don't have to have some convenient excuse why your previous protag isn't involved in the latest world-shaking events. So yeah, I totally get your point. There's no right or wrong here, each approach definitely has its own strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 27, 2016 0:47:26 GMT
I agree with colfoley. Its good that they aren't pulling an assassins creed, and sticking with the same protagonist over and over. I was so sick of etzio by the end, that I had to watch an LP of the last game he was in. I couldn't finish that game. BioWare should stick with the story they want to tell. If the narrative calls for a returning protagonist or if they can pull off one without, then they should do so.
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 27, 2016 0:57:50 GMT
It allows for more variety. You can pursue new love interests without dumping the old ones and try out new classes and new races with each new game.
Also, as Hrungr said, it avoids having to contrive reasons why your unstoppable juggernaut from the previous game gets knocked down to a Level 1 mook armed with a spoon during each new adventure.
This is especially important in a fairly low-power setting like Dragon Age. Unlike, say, D&D, there's no entering a new plane of existence to knock heads with demigods and the like.
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 1:10:20 GMT
Considering the single protagonist approach over multiple games required Shepherd and company and our galaxy to implode just so they could have a fresh start...
Haha
I read a review of ME that was like... Shepherd was becoming ridiculous. They were a decorated war hero when they began and every game required a promotion so you felt like you were moving forward. There was no upward momentum o chase anymore. The pinnacle of their career had been achieved.
Anyway. The only thing I have to compare it to is Star Trek. Picard was amazing. Janeway excellent. But eventually, even their awesome perspectives on a variety of topics were exhausted.
My Wardens got their happy endings. I think sending them on the Calling was clever so long as we get updates in the next game and they don't just drop it. Hawke's happy ending is confirmed if they survive the Fade, I'm pretty happy with it.
I didn't bat an eye that they changed protagonists between Origins and 2, same for DAI. The continuity of the World is paramount to me; so and so is queen or king and married that person. Just like when Captain Picard took over, there were cameos and references of the events with Captain Kirk. Ditto for when Captain Sisko took over the show.
Some people feel like their decisions don't matter but a codex acknowledgement has always made me happy.
That all said, despite not batting an eye about the change in protagonists, Trespasser makes me feel like they specifically left the Quiz on an super unsatisfying cliff hanger. If they had just left it with the party at the end of the main game. I again would not have batted an eye at a new protagonist. I don't even love my Quizzes as much as I love my Hawke's. And I feel like they need to feature in the next game to get appropriate resolution.
Other than that cliff hanger, I have been very satisfied with the new protagonist each game method. Besides, I wouldn't get to have a new falling in love moment every game if they were the same. Cheating Shepherd anyone?
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 27, 2016 1:14:54 GMT
Don't worry, they'll put a cap on the Inquisitor's story in DA4 when Solas kills them mid-game to raise the stakes.
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 1:16:01 GMT
Don't worry, they'll put a cap on the Inquisitor's story in DA4 when Solas kills them mid-game to raise the stakes. @_@ I guess that's resolution... Seems an odd move when he could have killed you in Trespasser.
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 27, 2016 1:21:02 GMT
Don't worry, they'll put a cap on the Inquisitor's story in DA4 when Solas kills them mid-game to raise the stakes. @_@ I guess that's resolution... Seems an odd move when he could have killed you in Trespasser. It could be tied to the narrative, showing this is no longer the Solas you once knew. Also, I'll note his mercy at the end of Trespasser was only a temporary reprieve. You're still going to die, along with the rest of modern Thedas.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 1:26:10 GMT
Don't worry, they'll put a cap on the Inquisitor's story in DA4 when Solas kills them mid-game to raise the stakes. I've thought about this before too, and it wouldn't surprise me if Solas takes our previous PCs "off the playing field" for the next game. Inky, Warden & Hawke might be the biggest, most obvious threats to him, so he finds some way to... banish them to the deepest part of the Fade or something. They wouldn't be dead, but they'd be out of the way (at least for the duration of the game).
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Nov 27, 2016 1:28:01 GMT
Luckily, I saved some of my posts from old Inquisitor debate threads for such an occasion. I'll omit the points that have to do with Quizzy specifically, because I've always been an advocate for returning protagonists in general. Here we go:
I don't like having new protagonists each game, for many reasons, but here are the main ones: 1. Character-whiplash. It's jarring, disappointing, and unsatisfying to build up your character for an entire game, as well as their relationships to their companions, then just when you get to know everyone, have them taken away and replaced with a new cast and a new character to try to shape from scratch, knowing you probably won't develop them as much as you'd like to since their story will end in the same game. 2. It's worse for developing the universe. A lot of people cite the "Thedas is the protagonist" argument during this debate, but in my opinion, having the same protagonist and most of the same cast across multiple games allows the world to actually come to the forefront, not the other way around. If you have to build a new character and their relationships each game, a lot of the focus has to be on that, not the world in general. I found in Mass Effect, I could appreciate the evolving galaxy just fine, and probably more, because Shepard didn't need to be built-up each game. Not only that, but I get sick of my character knowing progressively less and less compared to the player. I don't want to ask all of these questions I should know the answers to. 3. And obviously this will avoid the problems of unsatisfying character returns, whether that be for ex-protagonists or old companions you just wish you could talk to with those ex-protagonists. I want to talk to Alistair as the Warden. I want to hang out with Varric as Hawke. I want to confront Solas as the Inquisitor. Otherwise, so much impact is lost.
To be clear though, I'm not saying the entire series needs to have a single protagonist either. I just don't want it to artificially throw another one in every game, like clockwork, no matter what story is taking place or could take place, because of some rule they have. They shouldn't compromise what they think will make a good story because - to quote Dorian - "That's how it's always been done. Excellent reasoning."
Which is a general rule, and doesn't only apply to this debate.
So maybe one protagonist has a nice complete story with a bow on top, and only one game, but maybe the next has two? Who knows? They could also experiment with dual protagonists. Maybe you could overlap protagonists, and have PC1 have a standalone game, then share the spotlight with PC2, then PC2 could have a standalone game? My point is that some variety isn't mutually exclusive with returning protagonists.
I hope ME:A doesn't go the DA route, personally. I'd rather spend more time as/with Ryder, regardless of how much I like her compared to other protagonists, than undergo that whiplash again.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 27, 2016 1:29:35 GMT
I say it depends. If the story is complete, then yes the protagonist should be retired unless it makes sense for them to be in the new plot. If the story isn't complete and the next game is continuing that story, then yes the protagonist of that story should return as well. Also, if they have a protagonist return they should be under the control of the player, not turned into a NPC. I hope ME:A doesn't go the DA route, personally. I'd rather spend more time as/with Ryder, regardless of how much I like her compared to other protagonists, then undergo that whiplash again. Great post. As for the quoted bit, I do but that's because I want to be able to play as an alien in Mass Effect and that can't happen as long as Ryder is around.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 27, 2016 1:41:40 GMT
The IQ is now like Rick Allen from Def Leppard. I remember his accident. He's done well to overcome his loss. Seen him along with the other members of the band in concert
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2016 1:48:00 GMT
Iron Bull: You're really good with that bow, Sera. You lay down solid cover fire. Sera: Two eyes. Helps, yeah? (Ugh, Sera... sorry, I just remembered.) So: I can imagine my mage Inquisitors back (I'm not sure, I would like it), but I think my archer would miss his forearm.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 27, 2016 1:55:27 GMT
Iron Bull: You're really good with that bow, Sera. You lay down solid cover fire. Sera: Two eyes. Helps, yeah? (Ugh, Sera... sorry, I just remembered.) So: I can imagine my mage Inquisitors back (I'm not sure, I would like it), but I think my archer would miss his forearm. In the post-credits slides we do see that the Inquisitor could have a crossbow-grapple attachment if they join the Red Jennys. But tbh, in a world of magic and golems I find it hard to believe they couldn't come up with a functioning prosthetic arm for Inky if they wanted to.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2016 1:59:03 GMT
Iron Bull: You're really good with that bow, Sera. You lay down solid cover fire. Sera: Two eyes. Helps, yeah? (Ugh, Sera... sorry, I just remembered.) So: I can imagine my mage Inquisitors back (I'm not sure, I would like it), but I think my archer would miss his forearm. In the post-credits slides we do see that the Inquisitor could have a crossbow-grapple attachment if they join the Red Jennys. But tbh, in a world of magic and golems I find it hard to believe they couldn't come up with a functioning prosthetic arm for Inky if they wanted to. True, it would be even better than the original! (And Bull's eye? Why he have not received a new one?)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 27, 2016 2:00:26 GMT
I have no strong feelings either way, don't mind if they stick with it and don't mind if they change it.
They do need - I think - a slate wipe, though. The number of people running around who can "save the fucking world if pressed", is getting kind of silly.
Gaider expressed regret that both Hawke and the Warden weren't at the Conclave when it went boom. I would not have been keen on that myself, but something needs to happen to give an actual reason why these larger than life heroes don't ride in to save the day. The Warden sent a belt, and Hawke mostly just complained.
Also, simply moving the action to Tevinter is not an 'actual' reason. People in Thedas have ships, and horses. Distances can be overcome. As much as I like our past protagonists, I think something more permanent needs to happen to them.
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 2:09:26 GMT
I have no strong feelings either way, don't mind if they stick with it and don't mind if they change it. They do need - I think - a slate wipe, though. The number of people running around who can "save the fucking world if pressed", is getting kind of silly. Gaider expressed regret that both Hawke and the Warden weren't at the Conclave when it went boom. I would not have been keen on that myself, but something needs to happen to give an actual reason why these larger than life heroes don't ride in to save the day. The Warden sent a belt, and Hawke mostly just complained. Also, simply moving the action to Tevinter is not an 'actual' reason. People in Thedas have ships, and horses. Distances can be overcome. As much as I like our past protagonists, I think something more permanent needs to happen to them. Am I the only one that thinks just because you did our best to save the world once doesn't mean it becomes your lifetime career? My Warden could be dealing with all sorts of dark spawn, demons, and twisted magic to find the Cure. That needs someone of hero quality skills too. And Hawke did battle with a Qunari and an ancient magister, but that hardly qualifies them as THE ANSWER for the next problem of Thedas. In fact, a lot of people point out how Hawke mostly failed at everything they tried that whole 7-10 years. And they still showed up because of a guilt trip but very specifically due to their experience with Cory. Ten Hawke goes up to Weishaupt, and whatever happened Tere needed someone with hero qualifies too. Then the Quiz, who COULDN'T FAIL at anything except for not noticing all the secret identies right next to them. Which lost them an arm. My point is, Thedas is huge, and despite reasonable transportation, there needs to be strong people all over the place dealing with the lots of problems everywhere. The Warden running all over Thedas from one save the world situation to another is a crazy idea. It would be like, "oh, rampaging Qunari in Tevinter. Too bad the Warden is in another country dealing with that other problem. We'll twiddle our thumbs and wait."?!
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2016 2:16:01 GMT
I have no strong feelings either way, don't mind if they stick with it and don't mind if they change it. They do need - I think - a slate wipe, though. The number of people running around who can "save the fucking world if pressed", is getting kind of silly. Gaider expressed regret that both Hawke and the Warden weren't at the Conclave when it went boom. I would not have been keen on that myself, but something needs to happen to give an actual reason why these larger than life heroes don't ride in to save the day. The Warden sent a belt, and Hawke mostly just complained. Also, simply moving the action to Tevinter is not an 'actual' reason. People in Thedas have ships, and horses. Distances can be overcome. As much as I like our past protagonists, I think something more permanent needs to happen to them. Hawke appeared in person. And he explained how terrible is that blood magic, what he performs on a daily basis. But I think, Hawke would be happy, if they would leave him/her alone...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 27, 2016 2:18:15 GMT
I have no strong feelings either way, don't mind if they stick with it and don't mind if they change it. They do need - I think - a slate wipe, though. The number of people running around who can "save the fucking world if pressed", is getting kind of silly. Gaider expressed regret that both Hawke and the Warden weren't at the Conclave when it went boom. I would not have been keen on that myself, but something needs to happen to give an actual reason why these larger than life heroes don't ride in to save the day. The Warden sent a belt, and Hawke mostly just complained. Also, simply moving the action to Tevinter is not an 'actual' reason. People in Thedas have ships, and horses. Distances can be overcome. As much as I like our past protagonists, I think something more permanent needs to happen to them. Am I the only one that thinks just because you did our best to save the world once doesn't mean it becomes your lifetime career? My Warden could be dealing with all sorts of dark spawn, demons, and twisted magic to find the Cure. That needs someone of hero quality skills too. And Hawke did battle with a Qunari and an ancient magister, but that hardly qualifies them as THE ANSWER for the next problem of Thedas. In fact, a lot of people point out how Hawke mostly failed at everything they tried that whole 7-10 years. And they still showed up because of a guilt trip but very specifically due to their experience with Cory. Ten Hawke goes up to Weishaupt, and whatever happened Tere needed someone with hero qualifies too. Then the Quiz, who COULDN'T FAIL at anything except for not noticing all the secret identies right next to them. Which lost them an arm. My point is, Thedas is huge, and despite reasonable transportation, there needs to be strong people all over the place dealing with the lots of problems everywhere. The Warden running all over Thedas from one save the world situation to another is a crazy idea. It would be like, "oh, rampaging Qunari in Tevinter. Too bad the Warden is in another country dealing with that other problem. We'll twiddle our thumbs and wait."?! I don't disagree. But what both the Warden and Hawke were doing could wait. And a battle against an ancient elf intent on bringing don the Veil cannot wait. It's all good either way, as long as the game is good, I don't mind. It just seems a bit weak narratively. And, just to be clear, I was not advocating for either Hawke or the Warden to be the PC in DA:I. At all. Just saying, that from a narrative perspective, it makes no sense for someone like the Warden to say, 'meh, someone else can cover this one'.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 27, 2016 2:21:46 GMT
But tbh, in a world of magic and golems I find it hard to believe they couldn't come up with a functioning prosthetic arm for Inky if they wanted to. It would be easy for Dagna to make a new arm for the Inquisiotr
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Post by Natashina on Nov 27, 2016 2:27:34 GMT
The IQ is now like Rick Allen from Def Leppard. I remember his accident. He's done well to overcome his loss. Seen him along with the other members of the band in concert My joke fell flat. I have a ton of respect for the man. My husband has seen them live, and I saw a live concert on Fuse recently. They all still kick ass. In fact, I'd say he became a better and more technical drummer since his accident. /offtopic
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Post by mike3207 on Nov 27, 2016 2:28:45 GMT
I'm ok with new heroes every time, but stop sending the old heroes into the Bermuda Triangle.
Let them live their lives as NPCs.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 27, 2016 2:34:20 GMT
I remember his accident. He's done well to overcome his loss. Seen him along with the other members of the band in concert My joke fell flat. I thought it was funny!
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