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Post by Natashina on Nov 30, 2016 20:37:50 GMT
I looked around and I didn't find an active thread on this topic. I know that this is a theory that's come up before on other sites. However it's hard to find any discussion that talks about this connection post-Trespasser.
So I finally finished Trespasser about a week ago. When I was running around the Shattered Library, it struck me that the floating and broken layout reminded me of the Black City if seen up close. The Library itself is half in and half out of the Fade. Arlathan supposedly was destroyed by blood magic but I'm not so sure if that's the case. I think that Solas erected the Veil over Arlathan, which sent the enitre city into the Fade. The blood magic insured the fate of the elves. I'm betting that Tevinter did use demons and dragons in their war with the elves, but I don't think they were the ones the that destroyed Arlathan.
Related to that, I'm thinking that the Blight was a last-ditch defense for Arlathan. In theory, if you can protect yourself and your kin from the Blight, it's a great weapon. It makes your enemies turn on each other, poisons their own land and corrupts lyrium. It could have been in place since the battle with Tevinter. That took place around 214 (TE) and the first Blight hit in year 800 (TE) or -395 Ancient.
It could be an excellent way of demoralizing and depowering your target if your target is a bunch of humans that use blood and lyrium to enhance their powers. Corrupt the blood, corrupt the lyrium and your enemy is effectively hobbled. The problem is two-fold. First, I think without the Evanuris there was no way to set up protections from the Blight. Secondly, it can affect all living things so who knows what that could mean after Descent.
I'm not claiming to be right in my theory. It sounded good in my head though. What do you guys think?
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Post by colfoley on Nov 30, 2016 21:35:31 GMT
No I think its very likely that Solas was responsible for 'burying' Arlathan in the Fade. Corypehus claims the Black City was already blighted when they got there. Solas said he made the Veil to seperate the world of the living from the Evanuris. And Arlathan, given the other evidence was probably the Evanuris's 'safe zone' and seat of their entire power. So he crafted the Veil. As for the blight I do think it was very likely a Evanuris Super Weapon, given its lyrium corrupting properties it was probably an anti-dwarf anti-titan weapon too, one that had unintended consequences. And so Solas sealed it in there with them....hmm I was just wondering...maybe they killed Mythal with the blight? Heh. Anyways and then Corypheus et all breached the Black City on the behest of 'dumat' who then started exposing the world to the blight again.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 30, 2016 22:37:05 GMT
The tales say Tevinter 'sunk' Arlathan, but I have read some theories that go up and say Arlathan 'dropped'--they believe Arlathan was a giant floating city. More specifically, it was a floating city over the sea (so that no ruins can be found).
But I find the theory that Arlathan went into the Fade to be equally viable. Or they sent it to an in-between place like the crossroads.
But I do believe the ancient elves discovered the taint. Maybe even caused it. But given that we don't even know what the taint is (Titan-made disease? Rotting Titan corpse? Elvhen Bioweapon? The Gangue that that the dwarves speak of?)I would not be surprised to be wrong on that. I wouldn't even be surprised to find that it was natural thing at the time.
But I am almost certain it was created/discovered by the elves when they were at war with the ancient dwarves (it does, after all seem to be the most prevalent underground). And that it may have had apart in making the Evanuris seem more irrational/mad to Fen'Harel than before.
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Post by Reznore on Nov 30, 2016 22:42:11 GMT
I'm like 99 % sure Arlathan = the Black city.
The elves liked their gold.The temple of Mythal was all golden , which you can still see inside.The outside worn out , something you can read in the DA artbook.
There's no mention of a golden city in the fade in elven myth.They pre dated humans one and the elves were frolicking in the fade and had spirits with them.So the fade was far from foreign or a taboo place for them. And The Evanuris. There's no reason to think the Evanuris wouldn't try to go there. But still no talk of the legendary home of the Maker.
About the Blight...I have a long and somewhat crazy theory. Anyway basically the concept of "light" and "blight" are related and come from the same source. A proto "Sun" god , also known later as the "Maker". The elves defeated that proto god figure , tried to use its power and created the blight. I believe it was sealed in that "golden city" and it's possible the 7 old gods were the seal (the 7 gates of the golden city).
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Post by ellehaym on Nov 30, 2016 23:11:08 GMT
I do believe that the Golden city is a prison of sorts, mainly for the "Sun" that Elgar'nan defeated. When edited this mural: Looks like a City and within that City is what appears to be a Sun/ starburst symbol If you also look closely, that Sun symbol is surrounded by what looks like black peacock feathers. Those feathers where also only seen in the DAO opening when talking about how the Magisters received the Blight when they entered the City That said, I do think that the Blight could be a failsafe to prevent people from freeing the Sun that was sealed deep inside. According to Elvhen Lore, the Sun destroyed all (most?) life in a fit of jealousy and even hurt the Earth (Stone/ Titans?) So if anything, a Blighted world might be better than one that's destroyed by the Sun? At least life continues in a way and it might not even affect Spirits, maybe even Titans?
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Post by Natashina on Nov 30, 2016 23:12:25 GMT
I think we're going to find out about the Black City one way or the other. The DA team had said that they weren't going to prove or disprove the Maker. I can see them gleefully deconstructing the Chantry itself. "Surprise! The Black City wasn't home to the Maker. Suck up and deal, Thedas."
Hmm, the "Sun" proto-God reminds me of Greek myth as well as Nordic legend. Both Zeus and Odin took down older creatures (Titans/the Giants) and established their pantheons after that. The Greek Titans were locked away in part for destroying and corrupting the land during the war with Zeus and his army. The Frost Giants had an uneasy peace throughout most of the Nordic myth, mostly thanks to Loki.
I have another idea about the Blight. Andruil (Goddess of the Hunt) was said to have "made weapons of darkness" and "plague ate her hands" after she went mad. She went insane after going past the Fade and to the Void in order to kill the Forgotten Ones. She put on armor made of the Void and "lost her face." I think those Forgotten Ones had everything to do with the Blight. Considering what they were ("gods" of death, plague, ect) it would make sense. I think that the Evarnius was able to contain the Blight until Arlathan fell.
*Edit: Maybe she ran into the "Sun." Maybe the Forgotten Ones were also elves that went too deep into the Fade and found the interred proto-god.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 30, 2016 23:20:00 GMT
The tales say Tevinter 'sunk' Arlathan, but I have read some theories that go up and say Arlathan 'dropped'--they believe Arlathan was a giant floating city. More specifically, it was a floating city over the sea (so that no ruins can be found). But I find the theory that Arlathan went into the Fade to be equally viable. Or they sent it to an in-between place like the crossroads. But I do believe the ancient elves discovered the taint. Maybe even caused it. But given that we don't even know what the taint is (Titan-made disease? Rotting Titan corpse? Elvhen Bioweapon? The Gangue that that the dwarves speak of?)I would not be surprised to be wrong on that. I wouldn't even be surprised to find that it was natural thing at the time. But I am almost certain it was created/discovered by the elves when they were at war with the ancient dwarves (it does, after all seem to be the most prevalent underground). And that it may have had apart in making the Evanuris seem more irrational/mad to Fen'Harel than before. I have always found it curious, including rescent events withstanding, that the Chantry claims the Blight came from the Golden City/ Black City and the Dwarves claim something along the lines of 'its come from the ground/ always been there.' What if they are both right, especially given the likely war which happened between Elves/ Dwarves Evanuris/ versus Titan. If the blight was used in such a fashion in said war some of it could very easily still be down there and hence corrupting the land from the ground up while the magisters unleashed the blight from the Golden City. As far as the Golden City/ Black City being a prison...probably. But I am far more curious about what the Old Gods mean to this entire thing and exactly why Solas freaked out about their potential death. What are the Old Gods protecting?
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Post by Natashina on Nov 30, 2016 23:31:57 GMT
Heh, it reminds me of the demons used to bind Corypheus. The demons are bad but they were jailing something so much worse. Perhaps the Archdemons are preventing the Blight from consuming the world somehow.
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Post by ellehaym on Nov 30, 2016 23:32:37 GMT
There was an old theory that the Old Gods could hold the "key", especially since the mural that I linked looks like there might be 7 "keyholes" around and there are 7 Old gods. That and the keyholes somewhat looks like the Ancient Elvhen locked doors we see in Solasan:
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Post by javeart on Dec 1, 2016 0:09:19 GMT
I have always found it curious, including rescent events withstanding, that the Chantry claims the Blight came from the Golden City/ Black City and the Dwarves claim something along the lines of 'its come from the ground/ always been there.' What if they are both right, especially given the likely war which happened between Elves/ Dwarves Evanuris/ versus Titan. If the blight was used in such a fashion in said war some of it could very easily still be down there and hence corrupting the land from the ground up while the magisters unleashed the blight from the Golden City. As far as the Golden City/ Black City being a prison...probably. But I am far more curious about what the Old Gods mean to this entire thing and exactly why Solas freaked out about their potential death. What are the Old Gods protecting? Me too. I'm very curious about it all, but I find especially odd that Solas is so worried about killing them, what happens then when they're all dead? and what are they? I don't have a theory to contribute to the speculation, and I know very little about lore so :/ but I love reading about other people ideas. There are a some bits that I take almost for granted now though. I think too that the Black City is Arlathan, though I'd never have said that there's anyone imprisoned there, except maybe the evanuris. Makes sense though if the Blight was contained there too, maybe the evanuris were the ones carrying it, so containing them and containin the bligh was the same thing . I do believe too that everything is pointing now clearly to Andruil being related with the discovery, use or unleash of the Blight because the Blight and the void are related. And after Jaws of Jakkon, and considering the relationship between Corypheus and his dragon, I think the archdeamons carry pieces of either the elven gods or the forbiden ones. I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that there's seven evanuris imprisoned and seven old gods, and that even their names seems to match. On the other hand, the forgotten ones seem better candidates for being underground and related with the blight because of them allegedly living in the void. But, in any case, there has to be something more to the archdeamons than just being the carriers of pieces of spirtis or gods, if it's so dangerous to kill them all. I have sometimes considered the idea that they might be guardians, but I could never come up with what would they be guarding. The idea that they could be "keys" or "seals" for the Black City it's interesting. But why are they underground? I have to say that, I don't know why, but I always thought the story of Elgar'nan and the sun might be an allegory, where the sun might represents the dragons (simply because fire, yes, my ideas are sofisticated like that ) though he's supposed to release the sun later, anyway, so I guess it doesn't lead anywhere anyway
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Post by colfoley on Dec 1, 2016 0:11:46 GMT
Heh, it reminds me of the demons used to bind Corypheus. The demons are bad but they were jailing something so much worse. Perhaps the Archdemons are preventing the Blight from consuming the world somehow. It occurs to me...well there are only two beings in Thedas we know of, in this vein anyways, buried under the physical realm. The Titans, and the Old Gods. Titans Sing...Old Gods sing. What if the song of the Old Gods either counteracts the song of the Titans or maybe even puts them to sleep?
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 1, 2016 11:00:14 GMT
Love the theory OP. Is it also possible (I'm not sure, while I know the lore generally I don't know it deeply) that the Chantry and the Andrastrian religion was then 'invented' to keep people out of the Black City through fear, and thus not discover it is Arlathan?
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Post by Natashina on Dec 1, 2016 11:31:07 GMT
Love the theory OP. Is it also possible (I'm not sure, while I know the lore generally I don't know it deeply) that the Chantry and the Andrastrian religion was then 'invented' to keep people out of the Black City through fear, and thus not discover it is Arlathan? Thanks. Since I haven't chatted with you yet, welcome to our little corner of the net. Don't mind the stupid rhyme. It was unintentional. Andraste was born after the first Blight, so I don't think so. Stories of the Golden City becoming the Black City were already around I'm sure. No one alive was around when the Veil went up outside of Solas and Mythal or other truly ancient beings that we haven't met yet. I'm sure those warnings and tales about the Black City were already there. My guess is that the Chantry evenutally co-opted the story of the Black City and mixed it into the whole "Seat of the Maker" aspect. It strengthened the slave uprising that Andraste was leading and made Tevinter seem even worse than they were. Plus, it unified the southern lands under the banner of religion against Tevinter. Bare in mind how anti-elf the Chantry has been before. Shartan had an entire section in the Chantry of Light that was stricken from the record after the second Exalted March on the Dales. He was one of Andraste's dearest supporters and an elf. You can meet his ghost in the Temple of Sacred Ashes when you go there in DA:O. Anyway, non-humans are forbidden from becoming members of the clergy unlesss Leliana becomes Divine. So I don't think most of the Chantry founders had Arlathan in mind when incorporating the story of the Black City.
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Post by Moondreamer on Dec 1, 2016 13:43:58 GMT
I have a few thoughts and theory about the Black City, Arlathan and the Evanuris' connection to the Blight. Hopefully, I will make sense. So here it is: For the Black City, as others I believe what we see in the fade are remains of Arlathan (it seems small to contain the entirety of the old city of Arlathan, but it's entirely possible that raising the veil sundered the city and sent only part of it in the Fade. After all, from what we learn in Trespasser, many elvhen structures were partly in the waking world and partly in those strange pockets dimension like the shattered library.) If only parts of Arlathan ended up stuck in the Fade, that would explain how Tevinter could be said to had "sunk" Arlathan. They found what remained of the city, greatly diminished, but probably still with people living there and conquered it. Now, for the Blight. I'm still misisng information and it's quite possible that this theory has too many holes to hold water, but here are my thoughts. We know Mythal (and possibly Solas?) fought against at least one Titan, possibly killing it, and that the elves then started mining lyrium from its (hollow, as per Descent) corpse. We also know that at some point, they found something so disturbing far into the mine that they shut it down and sealed it away in horror. I think the Blight might well be at its base either an immune reaction or a corruption of the lyrium happening after the death of a titan. Elves came across red lyrium, not knowing what it was and what it did. Until their workers started getting sick from it, then... transforming. And they didn't know how to stop it. If left unchecked, it would corrupt their whole society. Mythal ordered the mine shut and the thing be forgotten. But, others of the Evanuris didn't agree with her decision. Lyrium was vital to their society (there are hints for example that the eluvian use lyrium in their construction, as DAO shows they can get blighted) and shutting down their mine, even if there were other ways to get lyrium (from freed dwarves?) would be a huge blow to their economy and society. And then, couldn't that red/blighted lyrium be used? Surely it could be weaponized in some way, and the Evanuris were often at war with others (forgotten ones?). Andruil was especially interested, and she took to returning to the closed mine and hunts in its depth. The void (remember, a titan is a hollow being. A dead one, with no one living there anymore could well be called "void") held an appeal and she got closer and closer to red lyrium. She asked Ghil to work on the lyrium and wore an armor made of it. Like Samson, it gave her increased power, but at the cost of her sanity. This experiment didn't stop until Mythal herself fought Andruil, destroyed the armor and erased her memories of how to reach "the void"/mine. Unfortunately, the cat was out of the bag by then. Red lyrium had shown itself to be incredibly powerful, Ghil had also been exposed to it and I expect the others also wanted a piece of it. Did they come up with the original darkspwn as some sort of biological weapon? It could be. Ghil does seem like the prototypical mad scientist if the codex going with the skin armor from Trespasser are to be believed. In any case, things were getting out of control as the Evanirus got more and more insane through the red lyrium. Mythal tried to intervene, but they killed her. By then, Solas was already full on rebelling, but although I expect he'd been researching the veil for some time, he was probably holding on hope that Mythal could prevent the worse. Without her, that hope was lost. The Evanuris were about the destroy the world with their Blight and their red lyrium and Solas felt soemthing drastic needed to be done. He had to seal them, their Blight and their lyrium where no one could reach them. Thus, the veil was created, and the cost of it was enormous (just... not quite as bad as it would have been otherwise). Unfortunately, The Blighted Evanuris found a way to communicate with the outside, with the Tevinter Dreamer Magister to be exact. When they managed to enter the Fade and breach the Black city/Arlathan, whatever seal Solas had put on it were broken and the Blight escaped again, starting the first Blight. I know this has some holes in it. The first is those dragons buried deep underground. What are they and what are they doing there? One theory is that those dragons were infused with some of the Evanuris' power, both making them immortal Cory-style and perhaps being used as a way to force the titans into sleep/stasis (after all, the dwarves are now free of titan control and something must had happened to make it so. It's hinted strongly that the elves had soemthing to do with that). That could link them to the blighted Evanuris, but I feel this is a shaky part of the theory. I'm just missing information. The second bit I'm unsure of is, if the Blight was released from the Black city in the Fade, why is it that the Darkspawn come from deep underground? I'm unsure. Also, i don't know what the song Blighted creature hear is. Titan-made? The Stone sings too after all. A corruption of the lyrium song? Maybe someone can say more about it. All feedback is welcome
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Post by javeart on Dec 1, 2016 14:12:29 GMT
About why are the archdeamons underground and why the Blight comes from the Black City but the darkspawn comes from underground, ridiculous idea I know but, there's this banter where Solas asks Sera what color is the sky, and Sera says "blue mostly, except for the breachy bist", and then he asks again "and if you look past the Breack" and she answers "greenish, and then clear and then felt like falling" and he's not surprised, in fact is the only time I think that instead of saying that she's apart from herlself, he says "we are not so far apart". This banter, along with the wierd relationship between the fade, the blight and the underground, made me consider if it's possible in some really wierd way, the world is circular or something like that...
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Post by eravas on Dec 1, 2016 17:51:56 GMT
About why are the archdeamons underground and why the Blight comes from the Black City but the darkspawn comes from underground, ridiculous idea I know but, there's this banter where Solas asks Sera what color is the sky, and Sera says "blue mostly, except for the breachy bist", and then he asks again "and if you look past the Breack" and she answers "greenish, and then clear and then felt like falling" and he's not surprised, in fact is the only time I think that instead of saying that she's apart from herlself, he says "we are not so far apart". This banter, along with the wierd relationship between the fade, the blight and the underground, made me consider if it's possible in some really wierd way, the world is circular or something like that... These are the times when I don't feel completely crazy. https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/5bjv8e/spoilers_all_silly_lore_post_introducingthe_flat/
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Post by javeart on Dec 1, 2016 18:49:28 GMT
About why are the archdeamons underground and why the Blight comes from the Black City but the darkspawn comes from underground, ridiculous idea I know but, there's this banter where Solas asks Sera what color is the sky, and Sera says "blue mostly, except for the breachy bist", and then he asks again "and if you look past the Breack" and she answers "greenish, and then clear and then felt like falling" and he's not surprised, in fact is the only time I think that instead of saying that she's apart from herlself, he says "we are not so far apart". This banter, along with the wierd relationship between the fade, the blight and the underground, made me consider if it's possible in some really wierd way, the world is circular or something like that... These are the times when I don't feel completely crazy. https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/5bjv8e/spoilers_all_silly_lore_post_introducingthe_flat/ I feel that way too, now it's really cool that the idea fits in a lore-friendly theory. I like it a lot, btw, not only this, but also the role of dragons (including the sun as a metaphor for them) and titans. And, you know, while I was reading it, I was thinking that maybe it's not that crazy, I didn't know the story you mention there, but surely wierder ideas have been used creatin fictional worlds, and after all it could be the equivalent in the medieval DA universe of the idea of a spherical earth in the medieval Europe
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Post by phoray on Dec 1, 2016 18:56:07 GMT
I don't know why I have this thought, but I thought the Grey Wardens intentionally trapped the arch demons below. OH yeah!
They know the locations of them, how else would they know that unless they put them there? Senior Grey Wardens know exactly where they are, it's why the Architect (well, one of a couple of reasons) why the Architect was capturing Grey Wardens going on their calling in the book.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 1, 2016 19:31:05 GMT
So I finally finished Trespasser about a week ago. When I was running around the Shattered Library, it struck me that the floating and broken layout reminded me of the Black City if seen up close. The Library itself is half in and half out of the Fade. Arlathan supposedly was destroyed by blood magic but I'm not so sure if that's the case. I think that Solas erected the Veil over Arlathan, which sent the enitre city into the Fade. The blood magic insured the fate of the elves. I'm betting that Tevinter did use demons and dragons in their war with the elves, but I don't think they were the ones the that destroyed Arlathan. We know Solas created the veil over Skyhold - the place the sky was held back - not Arlathan. But it still could have sundered it into multiple dimensions, yes. I think you're going to be mostly right. My personal theory has basically already been said in different parts by everyone here: Basically, Arlathan is the Black City, it's trapping the Evanuris (who are possibly blighted), the Old Gods are "keys" to releasing them, and that the blight was used either as a bioweapon by the ancient Elvhen or simply as a means to more power like Red Lyrium. It was taken from the void and first used by Andruil. The Evanuris wanting to use the blight is what got Mythal "killed", since she was smarter than that, and them using the blight and her getting "killed" is what pushed Solas to creating the veil and locking them away despite its consequences. But I do believe the ancient elves discovered the taint. Maybe even caused it. But given that we don't even know what the taint is (Titan-made disease? Rotting Titan corpse? Elvhen Bioweapon? The Gangue that that the dwarves speak of?)I would not be surprised to be wrong on that. I wouldn't even be surprised to find that it was natural thing at the time. I had that idea too, that red lyrium is basically coagulated titan blood (therefore not working as intended; corrupted song), rather than something created intentionally. It's just one idea, though, I personally think it probably came from the Void. I think we're going to find out about the Black City one way or the other. The DA team had said that they weren't going to prove or disprove the Maker. I can see them gleefully deconstructing the Chantry itself. "Surprise! The Black City wasn't home to the Maker. Suck up and deal, Thedas." I always thought that was a very silly stance to take. If people want to make connections (that weren't intentional by the writers) between the Maker and a god of a real religion, that's their own fault. It shouldn't affect the story Bioware wants to tell either way Here's hoping that with Gaider gone, they might answer questions about the Maker. As far as the Golden City/ Black City being a prison...probably. But I am far more curious about what the Old Gods mean to this entire thing and exactly why Solas freaked out about their potential death. What are the Old Gods protecting? I figure the reason Solas was so upset/scared about that was that the Old Gods all being destroyed would unlock the Black City and let out the Evanuris, who are possibly blighted and even more powerful in addition to being living bioweapons and crazy to boot. Possibly. I think the archdeamons carry pieces of either the elven gods or the forbiden ones. I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that there's seven evanuris imprisoned and seven old gods, and that even their names seems to match. On the other hand, the forgotten ones seem better candidates for being underground and related with the blight because of them allegedly living in the void. Something to keep in mind, though it's not hard proof of anything, is that apparently only one Old God is female, while about half of the Evanuris are. So that wouldn't match up. To be honest, I'm not really sure where I'd put the Forgotten Ones in this, I never really thought about it I think that making the Old Gods simply recipients of the Evanuris' souls/power would make some amount of sense (dragons were also connected to the Evanuris), but might be boring compared to them being their own interesting, different entities with their own lore and secrets. We'll just have to see! It occurs to me...well there are only two beings in Thedas we know of, in this vein anyways, buried under the physical realm. The Titans, and the Old Gods. Titans Sing...Old Gods sing. What if the song of the Old Gods either counteracts the song of the Titans or maybe even puts them to sleep? I think being separated from the Fade is what put the titans to sleep. This is supported by them stirring because of the Breach (it wasn't annoyed, it was simply waking), as well as the time the Magisters Sidereal entered the Black City - disturbances in the Force veil. This would also mean that Solas not only stopped the Evanuris, but also the titans, all in one fell swoop. Another aspect to this would be that it could explain why dwarves don't dream. They're still connected to the titans (hence Stone-sense, except surface dwarves), it's just that the titans are basically in comas. If they were awake, the dwarves would get a connection to the Fade through a connection with the titans. Maybe. Just throwing out ideas Could their resistance to magic also be because of their disconnection from the Fade? I have a few thoughts and theory about the Black City, Arlathan and the Evanuris' connection to the Blight. Hopefully, I will make sense. So here it is: This experiment didn't stop until Mythal herself fought Andruil, destroyed the armor and erased her memories of how to reach "the void"/mine. The second bit I'm unsure of is, if the Blight was released from the Black city in the Fade, why is it that the Darkspawn come from deep underground? I'm unsure. Also, i don't know what the song Blighted creature hear is. Titan-made? The Stone sings too after all. A corruption of the lyrium song? Maybe someone can say more about it. Your post was basically my thoughts exactly About the two other paragraphs: 1. Mythal being able to erase memories (even of another member of the pantheon) does add to the theory that the Evanuris originated as spirits, and either fused with mortal elves or manifested as Cole did, since he has that ability as well. Not exactly related to this topic, but them manifesting would be consistent with Solas describing them as "the first of my people", since they could be the progenitors of non-spirit elves, which would fit with Elgar'nan and Mythal being viewed as parental figures. 2. What do the blighted creatures hear? It could be the "Sun", in the Void, which seems to be some deeply malevolent figure. Or they could be hearing the Evanuris themselves, since the call makes them find Old Gods, who could be they keys to freeing the Evanuris. How that relates to the titans, I don't know. It could just be a corruption of the lyrium song as you say, which would fit with it being the song of a dead titan as well, since the song wouldn't function properly. As for the other part, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Magisters Sidereal landed in the Deep Roads upon exiting the Black City (there are stories of Magisters there like the one where one eats another)? That could explain why the blight still spread from underground. Though the dwarves say it's always been there.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 1, 2016 19:33:06 GMT
I don't know why I have this thought, but I thought the Grey Wardens intentionally trapped the arch demons below. OH yeah! They know the locations of them, how else would they know that unless they put them there? Senior Grey Wardens know exactly where they are, it's why the Architect (well, one of a couple of reasons) why the Architect was capturing Grey Wardens going on their calling in the book. My guess is that they know where they are because they hear the song too, and it led them there. It's just that they can't get to some of them (like the one in the Western Approach), otherwise they'd probably drain them of their blood (for the Joining) and kill them.
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Post by Moondreamer on Dec 1, 2016 19:53:53 GMT
[*snips*] I have a few thoughts and theory about the Black City, Arlathan and the Evanuris' connection to the Blight. Hopefully, I will make sense. So here it is: This experiment didn't stop until Mythal herself fought Andruil, destroyed the armor and erased her memories of how to reach "the void"/mine. The second bit I'm unsure of is, if the Blight was released from the Black city in the Fade, why is it that the Darkspawn come from deep underground? I'm unsure. Also, i don't know what the song Blighted creature hear is. Titan-made? The Stone sings too after all. A corruption of the lyrium song? Maybe someone can say more about it. Your post was basically my thoughts exactly About the two other paragraphs: 1. Mythal being able to erase memories (even of another member of the pantheon) does add to the theory that the Evanuris originated as spirits, and either fused with mortal elves or manifested as Cole did, since he has that ability as well. Not exactly related to this topic, but them manifesting would be consistent with Solas describing them as "the first of my people", since they could be the progenitors of non-spirit elves, which would fit with Elgar'nan and Mythal being viewed as parental figures. 2. What do the blighted creatures hear? It could be the "Sun", in the Void, which seems to be some deeply malevolent figure. Or they could be hearing the Evanuris themselves, since the call makes them find Old Gods, who could be they keys to freeing the Evanuris. How that relates to the titans, I don't know. It could just be a corruption of the lyrium song as you say, which would fit with it being the song of a dead titan as well, since the song wouldn't function properly. As for the other part, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Magisters Sidereal landed in the Deep Roads upon exiting the Black City (there are stories of Magisters there like the one where one eats another)? That could explain why the blight still spread from underground. Though the dwarves say it's always been there. The "Sun" has always left me with more questions than answer. Is it a real thing? A metaphor for those the Evnuris fought that Solas talks about : "Slowly. It started with a war. War breeds fear. Fear breeds a desire for simplicity. Good and evil. Right and wrong. Chains of command. After the war ended, generals became respected elders, then kings, then finally gods. The Evanuris." I think it might be the latter more than the former. I doubt the "Sun" is a single being somehow prisoner underground. I might well be proven wrong though. Doesn't quite help with the question of what song the darkspawn hear and why that brings them to freeing the dragons/archdemons though. Maybe the Evanuris, blighted and prisoner of the Black City, found a way to use and warp the song to control the Darkspawn? If really they used a part of their powers to put in the dragon (and then put those dragon underground to... control the titans?), they might want the darkspawn to release them so that they can get that power back. With it to add to their already considerable power, they might be powerful enough to free themselves from their prison. Problem with that is that the "old god soul" isn't released until the archdemon is actually killed. So... probably the wrong answer, but I can't come up with anything better at this point.
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Post by javeart on Dec 1, 2016 20:02:30 GMT
Something to keep in mind, though it's not hard proof of anything, is that apparently only one Old God is female, while about half of the Evanuris are. So that wouldn't match up. To be honest, I'm not really sure where I'd put the Forgotten Ones in this, I never really thought about it I think that making the Old Gods simply recipients of the Evanuris' souls/power would make some amount of sense (dragons were also connected to the Evanuris), but might be boring compared to them being their own interesting, different entities with their own lore and secrets. We'll just have to see! Ok, always learning something here, I didn't even realized that the old gods had gender I guess they don't match that well then, no :lol Also, Solas makes Cole forget too, though that might not be significant since his nature might not be the same that the evanuri's. At this point I'm quite sure they're some form of spirits, but I'm still not sold in any specific theory for what form exactly, and I'm very curious about that and what that means for the rest of the elves and the origin of humans and qunaris (I'm quite sold abut dwarves being the creation of titans)
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 1, 2016 22:23:23 GMT
The gender of the old gods isn't consistent. Zazikel was the GODDESS of freedom in old Tevinter, who changed gender to the god of chaos in the Chantry lore, likely because Hessarian named the high priest the "madman of chaos" and the chief priest/priestess of the religion is usually the same gender as the god they represent. So for all we know there may well have been more goddesses among the Old Gods than we have been led to believe. To be honest it seems odd to me that Andoral, the god of unity in old Tevinter, is male since everything connected with the feast of Summersday (originally called Andoralis to honour the deity) would suggest a fertility goddess. Then there is Uthemiel, the god of beauty, which would usually be associated with a goddess. Before the unification of Tevinter/Neromenian/Qarinus into the Imperium there seemed to be more equality of gender in society but by the time of Corypheus (if Hessarian's account is anything to go by) the priesthood seemed predominantly male as were the Archons. So the original Old Gods may well have reflected the same gender split as the Evanuris. I'm inclined to think that the archdemons were originally the split soul counterpart of the Evanuris in dragon form and when Solas imprisoned their other half, they went into hibernation (Uthenera) to await their return, just as the other ancient elves appear to have done.
The gods/goddesses who spoke to the ancient dreamers were either the Evanuris seeking a way out of their prison or the Forgotten Ones masquerading as deities in order to bring about the destruction of everything that remained of their enemies' power. The latter seems likely considering that the taint is an anti-life infection that corrupts everything it touches and seems connected to the magic of the Void, although it is quite possible that the Evanuris were drawing upon the power of red lyrium and the Void before their imprisonment and that is why Solas felt compelled to lock them away or they would ultimately destroy the world.
Mythal is said to have been responsible for the construction of cities and so it seems logical that the Golden City would have been her ultimate construction. It had 7 gates for the 7 other Evanuris to enter when they needed her judgements and the Dalish believe it was the home their gods. In Trespasser Maryden sings about "Mercy for the Elves" and in the song she declares "Arlathan fell, so deep unto the ocean floor". I assume this has to be a clue from the writers because it runs contrary to everything we have previously been told about how Arlathan was destroyed and it seems strange that Maryden should have come up with something so different to the accepted story told by both the elves and Tevinter. My guess is that ancient Arlathan encompassed the entire area now known as the Nocen Sea and bridged the material world and the Fade. When the Veil was raised, the Fade part became trapped there, likely with the gateway to the Evanuris prison within it, whilst the Thedas side collapsed beneath the waves, likely taking the source of the taint with it. When the Magisters entered the city in the Fade, this likely allowed a brief reconnection with the Thedas part of the city and the corruption to be found there, thereafter reflecting that reality in the Fade. Meanwhile the Magisters were coughed out of the Fade into the subterranean Black City, now connected with the Deep Roads. In DAO the eluvian found by the Dalish Warden shows a vista of a black city when Tamlen looks into it and also the hint of some monstrous being (likely the prototype broodmother from which all the original darkspawn sprang).
Solas definitely knows far more than he ever let on. It is annoying that for the sake of future games he wasn't permitted to speak on the matter. If it turns out the reason he needs to drop the Veil is because he thinks it will cure the Blight, I shall be rather annoyed that he didn't admit as much to our Inquisitor. I'll have to assume he felt it wasn't necessary to enlighten us because he was going to kill us all anyway. When you think about it, we had all those occasions when we asked what he had seen on his travels in the Fade and yet he actually told us nothing useful and yet when he seems really animated about something significant (the Grey Wardens and the archdemons) he neglects to inform us of anything that would be helpful, particularly considering he already knew that Corypheus had discovered the secret of effective immortality.
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 1, 2016 23:56:42 GMT
I do find it interesting that if brought to the Fade physically, Solas will say "Oh look! The Black City! So close that you could almost touch it " He was not scared, but pretty excited and The fact that even spirits and demon fear to be near it is quite interesting. Assuming that Arlathan = Black City, could it mean that Arlathan was made with the same materials as the Eluvians? Eluvians can be infected with the Blight as seen in DAO, they're also gold if not activated and remain unchanging in the Fade even it's shattered pieces
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Post by Moondreamer on Dec 2, 2016 1:19:24 GMT
I do find it interesting that if brought to the Fade physically, Solas will say "Oh look! The Black City! So close that you could almost touch it " He was not scared, but pretty excited and The fact that even spirits and demon fear to be near it is quite interesting. Assuming that Arlathan = Black City, could it mean that Arlathan was made with the same materials as the Eluvians? Eluvians can be infected with the Blight as seen in DAO, they're also gold if not activated and remain unchanging in the Fade even it's shattered pieces Since the Blight is only supposed to infect the living and lyrium is the only substance that is known to become infected (as per Bianca), I can only assume eluvian use lyrium as a material or their construction. Being highly magical, it makes sense. And I would bet they weren't the only ones using such a powerful substance as lyrium as a material, so why no Arlathan (not all of it, but used heaving as part of building material that can easily be imbued with magi maybe?)
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