Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 20:24:19 GMT
Because she was the only one who could get it to a Skywalker...ultimately Ben? Maybe the Skywalker and Palpatine Bloodlines are intimately connected with one another? Maz seemed ot think Finn would do in a pinch. Just sayin' Well TFA made a big deal of it, so...expectations subverted I guess. "It's time for the Jedi to end", hiding from your problems, and p*ssing off your would-be apprentice until she beats you up and robs you isn't training.
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2020 20:26:11 GMT
It occured to me recently that if someone where to whatch SW for the first time but in a chronological order (ep I - IX) instead of the usual one they would see dashing and joke cracking Ewan McGregor turn into a crazy old hermit Alec Guinness who lets himself killed for no reason at the end of the first episode of new sequel and vanishes into thin air, something never before seen in series. But you would know WHY he became a "crazy old hermit" There isn't exactly a "no reason" given he was surrounded by storm troopers and Vader was relentlessly attacking him. And while we never saw a body vanish, we DO know that there was a Jedi technique for achieving "immortality" through the Force, that Qui-Gon had learned it, passed it on to Yoda, who in turn passed it on to Obi-Won. That's a big stretch. It's not really shown in the movies and if you watch them in order you are most likely to not even notice or register when Yoda mentions to Obi Wan in passing that there is new training. And frankly, without the EU material or extra out-of-movie explanations, you have no idea about the immortality thing and that Qui-Gon passes it down to Yoda and then to Obi Wan. A casual person that doesn't bother to look anything outside the movies would have no clue.
Just recently I have spoken with a friend that has watched the movies a few times during the years and I still had to explain to her a lot of things that are actually in the movies. Questions like "why Kenobi didn't hold Vader for longer and just gave up?", "How two dozen rebel ships beat seemingly hundreds SDs?", "What was all that Jabba thing?", "Why did Anakin fall to the DS?", etc. were asked. Some were good, some were downright obvious to me. So I doubt the subtle stuff is even noticeable to anyone that isn't a big SW fan.
This sums up TLJ in almost everything. Which is probably why I liked it and why others disliked it. Rey "the nobody" was great. "Pedigree" Rey was cliche and boring. But it's a taste thing and I won't argue about it.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 20:29:28 GMT
Because she was the only one who could get it to a Skywalker...ultimately Ben? Maybe the Skywalker and Palpatine Bloodlines are intimately connected with one another? Maz seemed ot think Finn would do in a pinch. Just sayin' Well TFA made a big deal of it, so...expectations subverted I guess. "It's time for the Jedi to end", hiding from your problems, and p*ssing off your would-be apprentice until she beats you up and robs you isn't training. And that plan worked brilliantly. I mean not really in isolation maybe but then since we have seen other instances of that exact thing happening...like with Cal Kestis...its not that big a deal in hindsight. LOL! You do realize that one of his last lines was about him not being the last Jedi? Lessons aren't always in what characters say but do.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 21, 2020 20:36:24 GMT
We know why Luke become "cranky old hermit" too, so what? He could have used Force speed to run away from Vader like he tun away from droidekas in ep I. Never heard of it till I saw this thread. Where in movies do they explain that? Episode 3. huh, totally forgot about that scene.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 21:25:34 GMT
Maz seemed ot think Finn would do in a pinch. Just sayin' Well TFA made a big deal of it, so...expectations subverted I guess. "It's time for the Jedi to end", hiding from your problems, and p*ssing off your would-be apprentice until she beats you up and robs you isn't training. And that plan worked brilliantly. I mean not really in isolation maybe but then since we have seen other instances of that exact thing happening...like with Cal Kestis...its not that big a deal in hindsight. LOL! You do realize that one of his last lines was about him not being the last Jedi? Lessons aren't always in what characters say but do. If you want to bait and switch Rey and Finn, sure. Brilliant plan. Jake drank green milk, spouted nihilistic garbage, got beaten up and robbed by Rey. Which of these was the lesson?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 21:31:20 GMT
But you would know WHY he became a "crazy old hermit" There isn't exactly a "no reason" given he was surrounded by storm troopers and Vader was relentlessly attacking him. And while we never saw a body vanish, we DO know that there was a Jedi technique for achieving "immortality" through the Force, that Qui-Gon had learned it, passed it on to Yoda, who in turn passed it on to Obi-Won.That's a big stretch. It's not really shown in the movies and if you watch them in order you are most likely to not even notice or register when Yoda mentions to Obi Wan in passing that there is new training. And frankly, without the EU material or extra out-of-movie explanations, you have no idea about the immortality thing and that Qui-Gon passes it down to Yoda and then to Obi Wan. A casual person that doesn't bother to look anything outside the movies would have no clue. Obi-Wan: And what of the boy?
Yoda: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.
Obi-Wan: I will take the child and watch over him.
Yoda: Until the time is right, disappear, we will. [Senator Organa and Obi-Wan bow and start to leave] Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training, I have for you.
Obi-Wan: Training?
Yoda: An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force... Your old master.
Obi-Wan: [surprised] Qui-Gon?!
Yoda: How to commune with him, I will teach you.They have an entire freaking conversation about this! This was not subtle. They're freaking talking about it on screen! If anything, it's a lore dump! This sums up TLJ in almost everything. Which is probably why I liked it and why others disliked it. Rey "the nobody" was great. "Pedigree" Rey was cliche and boring. But it's a taste thing and I won't argue about it.
[/quote] There is no appreciable difference between "Nobody" Rey and Rey Palpatine.
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2020 22:22:16 GMT
They have an entire freaking conversation about this! [/quote][/div]
Yes, they do. And people that are not deep into SW barely notice it if at all. Which was my point as proven in this very thread.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 23:09:54 GMT
And that plan worked brilliantly. I mean not really in isolation maybe but then since we have seen other instances of that exact thing happening...like with Cal Kestis...its not that big a deal in hindsight. LOL! You do realize that one of his last lines was about him not being the last Jedi? Lessons aren't always in what characters say but do. If you want to bait and switch Rey and Finn, sure. Brilliant plan. Jake drank green milk, spouted nihilistic garbage, got beaten up and robbed by Rey. Which of these was the lesson? The nihlistic garbage. OK lets back up here for a moment because in hindsight I realized my post was horribly written. What was Luke's big lie/ flaw in TLJ? He believed that his failure with Ben Solo and the failure of the Jedi when it came to Vader meant the Jedi perpetuated a cycle of failure on the galaxy and that they would all be better off without him and the Jedi at large. After being exposed to Rey (god how I wish they kept that one deleted scene) and a pep talk from Yoda he realizes he was being an idiot and once again becomes 'Luke SKywalker...Jedi Master' This taught Rey a few important things for her own character moving forward: 1. That the Jedi aren't and shouldn't be the ultimate arbiters on the Force, they are guardians and servants of the Force they shouldn't get to call the shots on what is good and evil. 2. That the tension between the dark side and the light side provides balance. 3. More specifically to hopefully avoid the failures he made with Ben. 4. But that those failures, whatever they are, does not have to doom him, her, or the Jedi. 5. And that she shouldn't be so obssessed with trying to look for a family under every rock...though it was more Kylo who taught her this. That's a big stretch. It's not really shown in the movies and if you watch them in order you are most likely to not even notice or register when Yoda mentions to Obi Wan in passing that there is new training. And frankly, without the EU material or extra out-of-movie explanations, you have no idea about the immortality thing and that Qui-Gon passes it down to Yoda and then to Obi Wan. A casual person that doesn't bother to look anything outside the movies would have no clue. Obi-Wan: And what of the boy?
Yoda: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.
Obi-Wan: I will take the child and watch over him.
Yoda: Until the time is right, disappear, we will. [Senator Organa and Obi-Wan bow and start to leave] Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training, I have for you.
Obi-Wan: Training?
Yoda: An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force... Your old master.
Obi-Wan: [surprised] Qui-Gon?!
Yoda: How to commune with him, I will teach you.They have an entire freaking conversation about this! This was not subtle. They're freaking talking about it on screen! If anything, it's a lore dump! This sums up TLJ in almost everything. Which is probably why I liked it and why others disliked it. Rey "the nobody" was great. "Pedigree" Rey was cliche and boring. But it's a taste thing and I won't argue about it.
There is no appreciable difference between "Nobody" Rey and Rey Palpatine. [/quote] Well you're not wrong...though I think our particular interpretations about her being a nobody will differ vastly.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 21, 2020 23:30:48 GMT
So... Qui Gon is the Jedi who figured out how to become one with the Force, then he explained it to Yoda (a bit late to save the other now fallen Jedi from Order 66), and now EVERY Jedi, even recently redeemed "Jedi", but not Vader, can pull off this trick?
Hmmm... sounds a little logically inconsistent and plot-covenient... (and dumb).
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 23:51:01 GMT
Hux was turned into a buffoonish oaf not fit for command, and Poe was transformed from Iceman (Top Gun) into a manchild (Star Lord) despite their previous characterizations in TFA not being depicted in such a manner, and Hux being turned into spy by JJ in order to salvage the character doesn't absolve Kathleen Kennedy of her inability to make sure that the characters' personas remained consistent. Then there's the opposite problem for Finn whose character remains in limbo but with the added bonus of Johnson's self insert waifu tagging along. Why Kennedy didn't pick up on any of this despite it being her job to maintain consistency is an issue. Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Snoke trying to kill Rey and falsely believing that Kylo would do so too during the torture sequence shits on Palpatine's plans, and when you also consider Palpatine's firsthand experience with the unpredictability of Skywalkers ensuring Rey's safety should have been a priority. How much autonomy Snoke has for a puppet is not given to viewer but the danger Rey a vessel with more potential than Kylo was placed in by Palpatine makes no sense, beyond "dude lmao evuhl". What makes Trevorrow's statement so damning is that Kathleen Kennedy claimed to the contrary that them bringing back Palpatine from the start was the plan yet she hired a director, and didn't tell him that was part of the alleged plan? This is the same person who claimed that unlike Feige with Marvel, Lucasfilm didn't have source material to work from despite the existence of the EU, like The Dark Empire. This is the person who's suppoosed to establish, and oversee the framework for the Sequel Trilogy's narrative and is why a standalone film like Rogue One is outperforming the final film of the sequel trilogy. Poe's and Finn's characterizations largely staid consistent throughout the three movies. Poe in his very first scene of the movie is mocking KYLO REN TO HIS FACE for crying out loud. He's the Cameron Mitchell of the piece...hell maybe Jack would be more accurate. Yes Hux was turned into comic relief and while it may do the actor a disservice but it also helped prove the point of Johnson that normies are kinda caught in the middle of this cycle of war. Same reason that Rey was kinda an unintentional dick to the nuns on Ach To. Made perfect sense to me. Maybe that's the reason he was fired? For not going along with the plan? Sorry I have the exact opposite read from you there, we know he was fired for a reason, likely not going along with the plan. Now we have evidence. Insulting a guy to his face is not the same as being turned into a arrogant sexist manchild (infantilization) who doesn't care about the consequences of his actions which flies in the face of his portrayal in TFA, and Disney's other tie-in material. Rian taking one aspect of his persona and amping it to eleven doesn't make his characterisation between the films consistent. Being a cool and collected jokester who defers to authority is not the same as being an ill tempered male chauvinist with a disdain for authority. Now Finn had his entire character arc in TFA which was about him taking up a cause beyond himself and fighting for others repeated again in TLJ, but with the added bonus of Rian Johnson's self insert telling Finn this, denouncing him as selfish, and a bold face lecture to a child soldier about slavery. JJ wasn't initially brought on to direct The Rise of Skywalker. Trevorrow stated that he only learned of Palpatine's return once JJ was brought on board and was supportive of the new story direction. If Kathleen Kennedy was telling the truth Trevorrow who stayed on the team as a writer should have known about Palpatine's return before JJ was brought on board. Kathleen Kennedy is a known liar as evidenced by Bob Iger's book, George Lucas' statements and her interview in which she falsely stated that Star Wars had no source material. I'll take the word of an incompetent director over the one of a habitual liar.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 22, 2020 0:58:13 GMT
So... Qui Gon is the Jedi who figured out how to become one with the Force, then he explained it to Yoda (a bit late to save the other now fallen Jedi from Order 66), and now EVERY Jedi, even recently redeemed "Jedi", but not Vader, can pull off this trick? Hmmm... sounds a little logically inconsistent and plot-covenient... (and dumb).
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 22, 2020 14:52:38 GMT
So... Qui Gon is the Jedi who figured out how to become one with the Force, then he explained it to Yoda (a bit late to save the other now fallen Jedi from Order 66), and now EVERY Jedi, even recently redeemed "Jedi", but not Vader, can pull off this trick? Hmmm... sounds a little logically inconsistent and plot-covenient... (and dumb). Lucas likes to add in or retcon a lot of dumb shit after the fact that he shouldn't have, like Han shot first or that weird dance routine at Jabba's. Back then before the prequels it was widely believed by WoG that it was one of the powers of the Jedi while the sith needed objects or darkside locations to bind their spirits. Now without the EU lore we can only assume that Vader became a ghost after tracking Obi Wan's force ghost dust on his boots.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2020 15:08:43 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 22, 2020 15:29:58 GMT
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet. Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start. Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
I get that fans don't like what happened to Luke, but it is so weird that they cannot accept that it DID happen. Like, yeah, ~10 years prior(?) Luke left thinking it would be better and cut himself off from the Force, and so he didn't know what was going on with the First Order, and then later didn't have enough time to fly to help the Resistance at the end of TLJ. *Shrug* shit happens. P.S. I supposed it does make sense on this forum, cuz... ME3 "Indoctrination Theory".
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Post by Iakus on Jan 22, 2020 16:26:31 GMT
Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start. Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
I get that fans don't like what happened to Luke, but it is so weird that they cannot accept that it DID happen. Like, yeah, ~10 years prior(?) Luke left thinking it would be better and cut himself off from the Force, and so he didn't know what was going on with the First Order, and then later didn't have enough time to fly to help the Resistance at the end of TLJ. *Shrug* shit happens. P.S. I supposed it does make sense on this forum, cuz... ME3 "Indoctrination Theory". It certainly does when Disney decides to p*ss all over Lucas's characters so they can prop up their own.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 22, 2020 16:54:28 GMT
Well...
I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later.
What I have difficulty with is that Luke would, rather than attempting to fix this mess, cut himself off from the force, gave up, and became a hermit. Obi-Wan and Yoda at least tried to stop Vader and Sidious before going into hiding, and decided to bide their time only after failure.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 22, 2020 17:34:56 GMT
I get that fans don't like what happened to Luke, but it is so weird that they cannot accept that it DID happen. Like, yeah, ~10 years prior(?) Luke left thinking it would be better and cut himself off from the Force, and so he didn't know what was going on with the First Order, and then later didn't have enough time to fly to help the Resistance at the end of TLJ. *Shrug* shit happens. P.S. I supposed it does make sense on this forum, cuz... ME3 "Indoctrination Theory". It certainly does when Disney decides to p*ss all over Lucas's characters so they can prop up their own. Luke caring more about maintaining the mystique of his public image, and his legend over directly confronting Kylo and Snoke personally is out of character and non sensical. Based on Johnson's script it was heavily implied that Luke's submerged X-wing wasn't in working order due to parts of it's wings being used to fortify Luke's hut, and is the reason he used the force hologram technique due to his inability to fix his ship, and save Leia on time. Now we learn in TRoS that the X-wing despite it being submerged in salt water for years, and missing key parts of it's frame was miraculously operational the whole time. With TRoS JJ retcons the rationale behind Luke's force hologram which calls into question how often he communicated with Johnson or followed TLJ's script (can't blame him). screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-luke-xwing-plot-hole/
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 22, 2020 17:44:08 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Jan 22, 2020 18:41:40 GMT
Well... I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later. What I have difficulty with is that Luke would, rather than attempting to fix this mess, cut himself off from the force, gave up, and became a hermit. Obi-Wan and Yoda at least tried to stop Vader and Sidious before going into hiding, and decided to bide their time only after failure. Jake Skywalker wasn't even "biding his time" He outright gave up. F*ck that noise.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 22, 2020 19:38:23 GMT
Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start. Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
I get that fans don't like what happened to Luke, but it is so weird that they cannot accept that it DID happen. Like, yeah, ~10 years prior(?) Luke left thinking it would be better and cut himself off from the Force, and so he didn't know what was going on with the First Order, and then later didn't have enough time to fly to help the Resistance at the end of TLJ. *Shrug* shit happens. P.S. I supposed it does make sense on this forum, cuz... ME3 "Indoctrination Theory". Pretty much, they have let their hate cloud their judgement.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 22, 2020 20:17:56 GMT
Well... I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later. What I have difficulty with is that Luke would, rather than attempting to fix this mess, cut himself off from the force, gave up, and became a hermit. Obi-Wan and Yoda at least tried to stop Vader and Sidious before going into hiding, and decided to bide their time only after failure. For Luke, it seemed like what happened with Kylo at the training academy was one last event that made him decide to leave. I understand that kind of decision. Dunno what happened to him prior to that, but I'm sure helping build the New Republic for 20 years wasn't all sunshine and roses.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 22, 2020 20:44:13 GMT
I can understand why the producers didn't want to film the existing EU stories, but don't know why they didn't simply use that as a history of the characters for the new sequels. That woulda been fine. In fact, a lost grand daughter and ressurgent Palpatine might have made some more sense.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 22, 2020 20:48:39 GMT
I can understand why the producers didn't want to film the existing EU stories, but don't know why they didn't simply use that as a history of the characters for the new sequels. That woulda been fine. In fact, a lost grand daughter and ressurgent Palpatine might have made some more sense. some of it wouldn't have matched.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jan 22, 2020 22:07:27 GMT
Well... I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later. He crept into his room, took out his lightsaber, turned it on and stood next to sleeping Ben Solo for about 7 seconds. It's way more than a split second. Waaaaay more.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 22, 2020 22:28:56 GMT
Well... I can buy Luke considering, for a split second, attacking Kylo and being filled with regret and shame that the thought had even occurred to him a moment later. He crept into his room, took out his lightsaber, turned it on and stood next to sleeping Ben Solo for about 7 seconds. It's way more than a split second. Waaaaay more. Watch the movie again, Luke went into Ben’s room to look into his mind and only drew his lightsaber in response to what he saw. He looks panicked for a few seconds at most and then starts staring at his lightsaber as if he can’t believe what he’s just done.
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