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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 3:35:49 GMT
The politics in TLJ wasn't subtle. The same reviewers who celebrated TLJ for it's wokeness, like they did Rian's Knives Out, also attacked TRoS for it being apolitical despite that being JJ's style as evidenced by MI3, Star Trek (2009), and TFA. TLJ was woke but it's messaging only seemed to suggest otherwise due to Rian Johnson's limitations as a director and writer. The Empire, First Order and Palpatine's Sith fleet used Kuat Drive Yards as a manufacturer exclusively. Dealing with a weapons merchant who is most likely to sell the schematics of your vehicles, weapons and technology to the enemy is just dumb even by Disney Wars' standards, and judging by the Resistance's ignorance of StarKiller Base, The Supremacy's hyperspace tracker, and Palpatine's Sith Fleet it's a given they used an inhouse manufacturer. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kuat-Entralla_EngineeringAlso Finn already found a cause worth fighting when he ignited Anakin's lightsaber. His arc in TLJ was an unnecessary retread of his character arc in TFA, and only served to keep his character in limbo, but with the added bonus of being a sidekick to Rian Johnson's OC. I know what Kuat is...it does bear thinking on however I do not see the inherent contradiction, as of yet. I mean we know Palpy used them maybe the FO used someone else? And given Kuat is a weapons manufacturer I don't think there is anything to stop them, logically, from selling weapons to the Resistance. Maybe different weapons. More then likely though the First Order had their own tech they could develop but needed other companies to provide them things they could not. You know as much as you keep on repeating the same argument over and over again is not conducive to me believing the argument. Again Finn's 'cause' was Rey. I mean I can see why, if I were in his shoes I might do the same thing but there is legions of difference between 'save Rey' and 'fight for the Resistance' in terms of causes. After the Empire lost Kuat Drive Yards to the Rebels/New Republic they kept spies in the company who provided the FO, and Palpatine's Sith fleet with the latest in tech, and judging by the Resistance's ignorance of the tech Kuat Drives Yard was infested with imperial loyalists. Mind you the First Order has the tech too due to Snoke's relationship with Palpatine which is still ambiguous beyond Snoke keeping Palpatine's existence hidden from Kylo and Hux. Palpatine using an unscrupulous arms dealer runs too many risks unlike Leia's Resistance who needs all the help they can get from the Big Bad Merchants of Death because they are lacking in support. Without the weapon dealers who Rose disparaged in her rant the Resistance wouldn't have a fighting chance. Plus i'll repeat it again, Johnson copied Finn's character arc from TLJ. Finn coming into conflict against the FO is a given due to Rey's conflict with Kylo and his friendship with Poe, and him being turned into a sidekick for Rian Johnson's waifu wasn't necessary for that to happen. Rian Johnson didn't do nothing new with Finn's character that we haven't seen JJ do in TFA.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 16:08:07 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2020 16:13:55 GMT
More Oscars too
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 16:39:03 GMT
More Oscars too
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 17, 2020 16:44:42 GMT
I'm proud to say I contributed to Joker's gross, and zilch for it's competitor there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 17, 2020 16:48:36 GMT
More Oscars too Joker didn’t deserve any of them.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 16:50:49 GMT
More Oscars too Joker didn’t deserve any of them. Amen to that.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2020 16:53:51 GMT
More Oscars too Joker didn’t deserve any of them. I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it. But it made more money, and won more top-tier awards than Rise of Palpatine, so I'd say it's the superior movie by multiple standards of measurement.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 16:54:31 GMT
I'm proud to say I contributed to Joker's gross, and zilch for it's competitor there. Here here. TRoS got the camrip treatment and even that was being generous.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 17, 2020 16:55:10 GMT
Joker didn’t deserve any of them. I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it. But it made more money, and won more top-tier awards than Rise of Palpatine, so I'd say it's the superior movie by multiple standards of measurement. So you’re a hypocrite. You hate Disney for “destroying Star Wars for a quick buck” but applaud a movie that actually destroyed an established character for money. Good to know.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 16:55:15 GMT
More Oscars too Joker didn’t deserve any of them. Why because white male rage?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 16:56:22 GMT
Joker didn’t deserve any of them. I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it. But it made more money, and won more top-tier awards than Rise of Palpatine, so I'd say it's the superior movie by multiple standards of measurement. I usually dissaprove of your renames but this is funny...and accurate.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 17, 2020 16:58:15 GMT
Joker didn’t deserve any of them. Why because white male rage? No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 16:59:17 GMT
I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it. But it made more money, and won more top-tier awards than Rise of Palpatine, so I'd say it's the superior movie by multiple standards of measurement. So you’re a hypocrite. You hate Disney for “destroying Star Wars for a quick buck” but applaud a movie that actually destroyed an established character for money. Good to know. now there's an interesting take. Granted I've never been a huge fan of the Joker but given that I've heard nothing likeable about the new take I'd be really curious as to hear why you think that.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 17:01:54 GMT
What I find hillarious is people complain about the politics in TLJ and yet praise the Joker...which is a very political movie.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 17, 2020 17:24:35 GMT
No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well. Of course. It's not like comic books have a long history of suddenly reinventing heroes and villains and featuring them in stylized and self-contained stories where they act dramatically out of character. Self-contained chapters with uniquely portrayed iconic characters experiencing more personal and grounded stories than in the main canon is absolutely in the spirit of the genre. I do agree, the Joker movie isn't really about the Joker as I understand or prefer him either. It's still a really powerful movie with brilliant acting and a vivid and well-delivered message though. That does count for something too. What I find hillarious is people complain about the politics in TLJ and yet praise the Joker...which is a very political movie. Of course you do, it's hilarious if you don't think about it at all. It's a matter of execution, among other things. For one, the Joker is specifically about politics, and sets deliberately out to explore them in nuance and with care, which is what you know you're getting into if you've seen any of the trailers. A story about poverty, misery, class differences and societal failure that results in violence. TLJ is the eighth movie in a rompy space fantasy series of nine, and the politics it introduces are incredibly sudden, illogical and out of place, come at the direct expense of character development, and are blurted out into the audience's faces with no subtlety or follow-through whatsoever while at the same time trying to get you to care about three other storylines - some with their own hamfisted politics and illogical plot developments - that happen simultaneously. That's a shitty premise for suddenly trying to delve into the human psyche and issues deep-seated in human civilization, and Rian Johnson didn't manage to pull it off. Sorry to disappoint you, but "politics in The Last Jedi suck" and "politics in movies suck" aren't quite the same thing.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 17:27:35 GMT
Why because white male rage? No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well. You are full of shit right now. The Joker doesn't have a backstory because DC's editorial for the last 3 decades can't even decide amongst themselves what his canon origin is nevermind the canon origin for all of their other characters like Batman and Superman. Adam West's Batman, The Tim Burton and Nolan films, and BTaS, The Batman etc. all had differring origins for the character. That statement can be used to denounce all of the Joker's incarnations despite his sole defining traits being his clown motif and the duality between him Batman/Bruce Wayne, in which The Joker played upon in it's messaging about class. Plus all post 2000s comic book movies were blatant cash grabs especially Marvel's, that line of argument can be used to dismiss any capeshit flick without providing key points on a film's potentially crippling faults like camerawork, editing, lighting, script, costume etc.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 17, 2020 17:41:21 GMT
What I find hillarious is people complain about the politics in TLJ and yet praise the Joker...which is a very political movie. The only joke is you for the last few pages denying that TLJ didn't have woke political messaging in it's narrative. The politics in TLJ was poorly implemented and resulted in the flanderization of Poe's, Finn's characters at the expense of Johnson telling his broken Aesops. The Prequel trilogy had overt political anti war and capitalist messaging too (Trade Federation, Iraq invasion false flag conspiracy = Palpatine's gambit, Dooku a noble representing the Capitalist Alliance) but was better conveyed by George Lucas who maintained consistency with the setting, and kept it relevant to the overarching plot.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2020 18:30:14 GMT
No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well. Of course. It's not like comic books have a long history of suddenly reinventing heroes and villains and featuring them in stylized and self-contained stories where they act dramatically out of character. Self-contained chapters with uniquely portrayed iconic characters experiencing more personal and grounded stories than in the main canon is absolutely in the spirit of the genre. I do agree, the Joker movie isn't really about the Joker as I understand or prefer him either. It's still a really powerful movie with brilliant acting and a vivid and well-delivered message though. That does count for something too. What I find hillarious is people complain about the politics in TLJ and yet praise the Joker...which is a very political movie. Of course you do, it's hilarious if you don't think about it at all. It's a matter of execution, among other things. For one, the Joker is specifically about politics, and sets deliberately out to explore them in nuance and with care, which is what you know you're getting into if you've seen any of the trailers. A story about poverty, misery, class differences and societal failure that results in violence. TLJ is the eighth movie in a rompy space fantasy series of nine, and the politics it introduces are incredibly sudden, illogical and out of place, come at the direct expense of character development, and are blurted out into the audience's faces with no subtlety or follow-through whatsoever while at the same time trying to get you to care about three other storylines - some with their own hamfisted politics and illogical plot developments - that happen simultaneously. That's a shitty premise for suddenly trying to delve into the human psyche and issues deep-seated in human civilization, and Rian Johnson didn't manage to pull it off. Sorry to disappoint you, but "politics in The Last Jedi suck" and "politics in movies suck" aren't quite the same thing. Granted But A. Politics have always been apart of Star Wars from episode 4 where you had a scrappy group of vaguely American like Rebels against a fascist empire with obvious Nazi overtones. B. The messaging was so obvious and blatant in TLJ...that I completely missed it even though I'm sensitive to that stuff given I breathe politics. C. The messaging was so obvious FROM THE trailer for the Joker that my interest in seeing the movie is almost nill.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2020 18:42:08 GMT
I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it. But it made more money, and won more top-tier awards than Rise of Palpatine, so I'd say it's the superior movie by multiple standards of measurement. So you’re a hypocrite. You hate Disney for “destroying Star Wars for a quick buck” but applaud a movie that actually destroyed an established character for money. Good to know. What part of "I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it" was too difficult to understand? Saying ANY movie was superior to Disney Wars is not exactly an endorsement on my part.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 17, 2020 19:09:08 GMT
Granted But A. Politics have always been apart of Star Wars from episode 4 where you had a scrappy group of vaguely American like Rebels against a fascist empire with obvious Nazi overtones. B. The messaging was so obvious and blatant in TLJ...that I completely missed it even though I'm sensitive to that stuff given I breathe politics. C. The messaging was so obvious FROM THE trailer for the Joker that my interest in seeing the movie is almost nill. A. "American like rebels"? Please explain that to me. Not being American, I might have missed something. And the Empire is fascist because fascism is evil, and the story is obviously about good vs evil. It's not supposed to be a commentary on fascism the way TLJ suddenly tries to be a commentary on capitalism, weapons manufacture, animal cruelty and ""heroes"" who apparently think with their dicks by default. B. What that sounds like to me is that you've become desensitized to social justice politics without realizing it, not that TLJ is subtle. Because it isn't. Then again, we've kind of discovered that you haven't devoted a lot of energy to critical thinking while watching that particular movie. C. Again, the Joker is specifically about those things. And if you haven't seen it then I don't see how you think you can compare it and TLJ's approaches to anything. I wasn't wild to see it either based on those trailers, but went with someone else and was thoroughly engrossed, and found the chain of events it posited relatable and essentially true to real life.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 17, 2020 19:19:53 GMT
What I find hillarious is people complain about the politics in TLJ and yet praise the Joker...which is a very political movie. The only joke is you for the last few pages denying that TLJ didn't have woke political messaging in it's narrative. The politics in TLJ was poorly implemented and resulted in the flanderization of Poe's, Finn's characters at the expense of Johnson telling his broken Aesops. The Prequel trilogy had overt political anti war and capitalist messaging too (Trade Federation, Iraq invasion false flag conspiracy = Palpatine's gambit, Dooku a noble representing the Capitalist Alliance) but was better conveyed by George Lucas who maintained consistency with the setting, and kept it relevant to the overarching plot. You should probably try to explain what is so broken about the political messaging in TLJ. So far all I've heard is Rose can't complain about war profiteering and slavery (or indentured labor) supporting Canto Bight's lavish lifestyle, because some external source says the First Order doesn't buy weapons outside their own inhouse manufacturers. As an argument against the messaging it doesn't make sense because it's a lore argument against a supposedly woke political message. As far as the political message itself goes, I don't know what's so politically controversial about not wanting war profiteering or slavery to support a lavish lifestyle. Additionally, Finn doesn't pick a side in TFA, he's just trying to help Rey. In TLJ he eventually picks a side, so I don't know why his arc is a cut and paste. Even if one assumed he picked a side in TFA, why would anything be settled in his character in the three or four days of TFA (where he is suddenly not a Storm Trooper) that couldn't be reopened in TLJ for further examination?
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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2020 22:08:43 GMT
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 0:06:51 GMT
You should probably try to explain what is so broken about the political messaging in TLJ. So far all I've heard is Rose can't complain about war profiteering and slavery (or indentured labor) supporting Canto Bight's lavish lifestyle, because some external source says the First Order doesn't buy weapons outside their own inhouse manufacturers. As an argument against the messaging it doesn't make sense because it's a lore argument against a supposedly woke political message. As far as the political message itself goes, I don't know what's so politically controversial about not wanting war profiteering or slavery to support a lavish lifestyle. Additionally, Finn doesn't pick a side in TFA, he's just trying to help Rey. In TLJ he eventually picks a side, so I don't know why his arc is a cut and paste. Even if one assumed he picked a side in TFA, why would anything be settled in his character in the three or four days of TFA (where he is suddenly not a Storm Trooper) that couldn't be reopened in TLJ for further examination? That they're completely and blatantly one-sided, for one. That the plot ruthlessly bends and twists the established rules of the much beloved setting to make their cases, for another. That they specifically rely on the audience not thinking about what they're seeing on-screen and instead just listening to the creator mouthpieces verbally spelling the morals out instead for a third. That setting them up ate up time and budget that was sorely needed to sufficiently develop characters new and old for a fourth. That they say nothing even remotely insightful or meaningful about either the characters, the world or our reality for a fifth. Rose and Holdo/Leia respectively feed Finn and Poe narratives that we know for a fact make no sense even within the context of the story, even within the context of the main movies, and actually require the plot to manufacture contrivances and sudden new and nonsensical developments just to sound even vaguely convincing. And the plot nonetheless forces both Finn and Poe to swallow that bullshit and meekly "learn their lessons" without questioning the ridiculous troll logic being used to lecture them simply because the writer wants to make a statement and hopes that the audience is convinced enough not to think too hard about it either. Which appears to have worked in at least two cases, to their credit. I wouldn't say Abrams had a great handle on things back in TFA, but Johnson definitely strangled this trilogy in its adolescence in terms of the writing and themecrafting with The Last Jedi.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 18, 2020 1:46:48 GMT
You should probably try to explain what is so broken about the political messaging in TLJ. So far all I've heard is Rose can't complain about war profiteering and slavery (or indentured labor) supporting Canto Bight's lavish lifestyle, because some external source says the First Order doesn't buy weapons outside their own inhouse manufacturers. As an argument against the messaging it doesn't make sense because it's a lore argument against a supposedly woke political message. As far as the political message itself goes, I don't know what's so politically controversial about not wanting war profiteering or slavery to support a lavish lifestyle. Additionally, Finn doesn't pick a side in TFA, he's just trying to help Rey. In TLJ he eventually picks a side, so I don't know why his arc is a cut and paste. Even if one assumed he picked a side in TFA, why would anything be settled in his character in the three or four days of TFA (where he is suddenly not a Storm Trooper) that couldn't be reopened in TLJ for further examination? That they're completely and blatantly one-sided, for one. That the plot ruthlessly bends and twists the established rules of the much beloved setting to make their cases, for another. That they specifically rely on the audience not thinking about what they're seeing on-screen and instead just listening to the creator mouthpieces verbally spelling the morals out instead for a third. That setting them up ate up time and budget that was sorely needed to sufficiently develop characters new and old for a fourth. That they say nothing even remotely insightful or meaningful about either the characters, the world or our reality for a fifth. Rose and Holdo/Leia respectively feed Finn and Poe narratives that we know for a fact make no sense even within the context of the story, even within the context of the main movies, and actually require the plot to manufacture contrivances and sudden new and nonsensical developments just to sound even vaguely convincing. And the plot nonetheless forces both Finn and Poe to swallow that bullshit and meekly "learn their lessons" without questioning the ridiculous troll logic being used to lecture them simply because the writer wants to make a statement and hopes that the audience is convinced enough not to think too hard about it either. Which appears to have worked in at least two cases, to their credit. I wouldn't say Abrams had a great handle on things back in TFA, but Johnson definitely strangled this trilogy in its adolescence in terms of the writing and themecrafting with The Last Jedi. That's very generic and non-specific. Ok, so we are discussing Rose's take on Canto Bight, and you have claimed "even within the context of the main movies" this is blatantly one sided. This is good since we do not have to consider outside sources of information on where The First Order gets it's weaponry. Please do explain "the other side" of the argument I guess in favor(?) of supporting a lavish lifestyle by supplying both sides of a conflict with weapons, and using slavery/indentured labor. If instead you'd rather discuss the previous "message" to Poe, I still don't see what is so controversial or woke about "escaping to fight another day, instead of fighting and dying" or why this makes "no sense." As far the story's implementation... … No, watch the scenes again. The goal at that point is explicitly to wait for the First Order to draw that cannon out and then to ruin it by any means necessary to prevent it from rendering the Resistance easy pickings. As the movie frames the scenario there's no way out, and the Resistance is as good as dead the moment that door falls. You're trying to make it sound like Poe and the others are distracting the First Order while the others search the caves for an escape. That isn't the case in the movie, nobody is searching for such an exit because they've all been told there isn't one. … I am aware of what the mission was. But perhaps you should watch the scene again as well. As the mission progressed they lost too many fighters, and Poe decided that it was turning into a suicide run instead of a workable plan, and so he ordered a retreat to save and many as he could, since that was their true goal for the entire movie - escaping the First Order. ... If it wasn't for BOTH Luke's deus ex machina Force projection and Rey turning up to clear a new cave opening then Rose's actions would have meant the certain death of everyone in that cave, whereas Finn destroying that canon would have given them hours, if not days, to communicate with allies and coordinate with Rey and maybe find some solution. Attacking the canon with those speeders was always a suicide mission. Poe knew that from the get-go. He just pissed his pants when people started dying because he'd been second-guessed for no reason the entire movie. I disagree. The mission against the cannon was dangerous, but not always a suicide mission. Looking for another means of escape is what Poe should have been doing from the get-go, and what he later realized. It might have been hopeless (not entirely sure of that since hands can move rocks too) but here you are using an unknown future set of development in the story to justify a previous decision. That is not a valid argument in favor of continuing the attack, and not looking for another means of escape.
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