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Post by alanc9 on Jan 16, 2018 17:15:57 GMT
No. For consistently liking things that are shit, defending them in a biased manor that consistently uses language that shapes him as some sort of authority on the subject at hand (which he clearly is not)... Really, just for having bad taste. Wait... you're criticizing someone for claiming to be an authority at the same time you're asking him to be banned for having bad taste? I get that this is an idiotic joke post, but it's incoherent on its face.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jan 16, 2018 18:05:50 GMT
I find it interesting that when there are complaints about Luke Skywalker's character, the immediate assumption seems to be that we want Luke to take up his lightsaber and personally smash the First Order before sending Kylo to his room without supper. No. There are many ways they could have done justice to Luke without having him take an active role in the fighting. He could have been the headmaster of a new Jedi Academy. Heck, in that role he could have properly trained Rey! He could have been leading a new Jedi Council. Dispensing useful advice (rather than the nihilistic garbage Jake Skywalker was spouting in TLJ) without leaving his cushion. He could have been advising the Resistance/New Republic. Staying in contact with his sister and observing events from afar and providing what advice he could. He could have been retired and raising a family. Not a sexy role, but at least one where he finds peace after years of fighting. But grumpy old man who's failed at life and is just waiting to die as the galaxy burns around him? Oh, but it's so unexpected and ARTISTIC! It must be deep or something! Hey, TLJ is literally KOTOR II 2.2. How can't you understand its depth and profundity?!
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 16, 2018 18:07:07 GMT
Who is that other person? That would be close to personal attack and I can't do that, since I'm law abiding forum citizen.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 16, 2018 18:25:08 GMT
Another thing I did like about the Bon We Trust vids was how he drew parrellels between Luke/ King Arthur. Which, then we all knew how King Arthur's story ended (which he does go over), it is even more evidence that the Last Jedi is very faithful to Luke's character.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 16, 2018 18:37:11 GMT
Well, at least once we're done arguing about TLJ, we've got the Solo movie to look forward to...
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 16, 2018 18:37:51 GMT
Well, at least once we're done arguing about TLJ, we've got the Solo movie to look forward to... Yeah, that'll be even more fun.
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Post by mybudgee on Jan 16, 2018 19:03:16 GMT
Well, at least once we're done arguing about TLJ, we've got the Solo movie to look forward to... Yeah, that'll be even more fun.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 16, 2018 19:17:40 GMT
For liking something...really?😑 No. For consistently liking things that are shit, defending them in a biased manor that consistently uses language that shapes him as some sort of authority on the subject at hand (which he clearly is not)... Really, just for having bad taste. I didn't report his post, because there was nothing to report. He is a nice and friendly person that I cannot stand. Therefore, he must be banned. ... I don't expect anyone to be banned, most of all because I of all people recommend it. It was sort of a joke, but it does remain my dream. But, and forgive me if this comes off as arrogant, I am trying to be an authority on this subject. Admittedly probably still rather amateurish but I am writing my own original works and making money off it. Granted everyone can disagree with my conclusions or think I'm a crap writer. But I feel I bring a unique perspective, as someone who studies the art of writing. Which is why I've come to think that this conversation on Luke's character is superfluous. I feel it's in character but even if it's not it does not matter because it might have been the best thing for the character or the story. Now I don't find Luke's characterization perfect if they told me "hey make Luke a grumpy curmudgeon" i would have done things differently. But then that's only being exposed because Iakus and others have had such a negative reaction.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 16, 2018 19:26:22 GMT
i haven't seen TLJ, and from the reviews... well most say something like; if you're a long time star wars fan, don't watch this movie. so, at best i'm waiting till it's free on amazon prime or netflix. now, i wasn't really happy that the force awakens rewrote the end of return of the jedi, and basically destroyed most of the EU unnecessarily. and i'm also pissed that disney removed kyle katarn from the timeline too. are they going for mara jade as well? (and wasn't a bit of that already canon iirc?)
---edit i've also heard a few reviewers saying that TLJ was very poorly edited.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 16, 2018 19:27:58 GMT
i haven't seen TLJ, and from the reviews... well most say something like; if you're a long time star wars fan, don't watch this movie. so, at best i'm waiting till it's free on amazon prime or netflix. now, i wasn't really happy that the force awakens rewrote the end of return of the jedi, and basically destroyed most of the EU unnecessarily. and i'm also pissed that disney removed kyle katarn from the timeline too. are they going for mara jade as well? (and wasn't a bit of that already canon iirc?) Mara Jade no longer exists. And at this point I'd be terrified at what she'd become if they brought her back.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 16, 2018 19:34:33 GMT
i haven't seen TLJ, and from the reviews... well most say something like; if you're a long time star wars fan, don't watch this movie. so, at best i'm waiting till it's free on amazon prime or netflix. now, i wasn't really happy that the force awakens rewrote the end of return of the jedi, and basically destroyed most of the EU unnecessarily. and i'm also pissed that disney removed kyle katarn from the timeline too. are they going for mara jade as well? (and wasn't a bit of that already canon iirc?) ---edit i've also heard a few reviewers saying that TLJ was very poorly edited. how did TFA rewrite the end of Jedi?
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Post by smilesja on Jan 16, 2018 20:04:55 GMT
i haven't seen TLJ, and from the reviews... well most say something like; if you're a long time star wars fan, don't watch this movie. so, at best i'm waiting till it's free on amazon prime or netflix. now, i wasn't really happy that the force awakens rewrote the end of return of the jedi, and basically destroyed most of the EU unnecessarily. and i'm also pissed that disney removed kyle katarn from the timeline too. are they going for mara jade as well? (and wasn't a bit of that already canon iirc?) ---edit i've also heard a few reviewers saying that TLJ was very poorly edited. There was a lot of things that should've been cut from TLJ.
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Post by river82 on Jan 16, 2018 20:33:46 GMT
Yeah, because fuck Publishing killing a beloved character. You must have Harrison Ford-level authorization clout to do that At least they had a somewhat sensible reason (although how do they explain R2?) Ford was just like "fuck this I don't want to do this anymore." You've missed the point of the excerpt. The point wasn't about Chewie dying, it was Chewie having died off screen. What was one of the chief complaints concerning Admiral Ackbar? He was killed off screen. Same rules apply.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 16, 2018 20:37:36 GMT
Yeah, because fuck Publishing killing a beloved character. You must have Harrison Ford-level authorization clout to do that At least they had a somewhat sensible reason (although how do they explain R2?) Ford was just like "fuck this I don't want to do this anymore." You've missed the point of the excerpt. The point wasn't about Chewie dying, it was Chewie having died off screen. What was one of the chief complaints concerning Admiral Ackbar? He was killed off screen. Same rules apply. I would say it was a better death than Luke dying, though that's not really saying much.
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Post by river82 on Jan 16, 2018 20:42:41 GMT
Which is why I've come to think that this conversation on Luke's character is superfluous. I feel it's in character but even if it's not it does not matter because it might have been the best thing for the character or the story. Now I don't find Luke's characterization perfect if they told me "hey make Luke a grumpy curmudgeon" i would have done things differently. But then that's only being exposed because Iakus and others have had such a negative reaction. There's nothing wrong with Luke's characterisation. Plenty to dislike for fans possibly, but nothing wrong. Often people who don't like a character will claim they're badly written in an attempt to justify their dislike. "Luke is out of character, it shits on his growth, people don't change like that" - all wrong. When there's a 40 year time skip, it starts becoming real hard to argue "out of character". People who think Rey's too perfect have a legitimate argument, but you'll be hard pressed to find one about Luke. People may not like the direction he's taken in, but c'est la vie. That's life. Disney writes differently from George *shrugs*. At the end of the day though these sorts of media exist to entertain, and I guess Luke fans were not entertained. The bigger a franchise gets the harder it is to please everybody, though. Everybody has their favourite characters and everybody wants to see those characters treated nicely. That obviously won't happen most of the time, but eh. No, Russell. It seems like some weren't.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 16, 2018 20:50:40 GMT
Which is why I've come to think that this conversation on Luke's character is superfluous. I feel it's in character but even if it's not it does not matter because it might have been the best thing for the character or the story. Now I don't find Luke's characterization perfect if they told me "hey make Luke a grumpy curmudgeon" i would have done things differently. But then that's only being exposed because Iakus and others have had such a negative reaction. There's nothing wrong with Luke's characterisation. Plenty to dislike for fans possibly, but nothing wrong. Often people who don't like a character will claim they're badly written in an attempt to justify their dislike. "Luke is out of character, it shits on his growth, people don't change like that" - all wrong. When there's a 40 year time skip, it starts becoming real hard to argue "out of character". People who think Rey's too perfect have a legitimate argument, but you'll be hard pressed to find one about Luke. People may not like the direction he's taken in, but c'est la vie. That's life. Disney writes differently from George *shrugs*. At the end of the day though these sorts of media exist to entertain, and I guess Luke fans were not entertained. The bigger a franchise gets the harder it is to please everybody, though. Everybody has their favourite characters and everybody wants to see those characters treated nicely. That obviously won't happen most of the time, but eh. No, Russell. It seems like some weren't. exactly. It's a point I've often made and even here personal dislike is different from bad writing. Also vice versa. Take Hoth for instance. I like Hoth it's a great battle wonderfully presented...but it's horribly written.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 16, 2018 21:14:22 GMT
Yeah, because fuck Publishing killing a beloved character. You must have Harrison Ford-level authorization clout to do that At least they had a somewhat sensible reason (although how do they explain R2?) Ford was just like "fuck this I don't want to do this anymore." You've missed the point of the excerpt. The point wasn't about Chewie dying, it was Chewie having died off screen. What was one of the chief complaints concerning Admiral Ackbar? He was killed off screen. Same rules apply. You mean like how the specific act of killing Chewie was mentioned thrice in the quote, whereas having to "explain a moon fell on his head" was mentioned only offhandedly? I think you misunderstood. And based on what I'm seeing about Ackbar that's not the same thing, at all. Ackbar gets Warrior Three'd. That is indeed shitting on a character. But there are plenty of examples where a character dying in between movies is perfectly fine, particularly if they present it right. It's never great, and most of the time it's because an actor didn't want to come back (or the sadder version where they actually died), but it's passable. None of which answers my question why they couldn't just undo/rewrite from Vector Prime onwards.
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Post by river82 on Jan 16, 2018 21:27:48 GMT
You mean like how the specific act of killing Chewie was mentioned thrice in the quote, whereas having to "explain a moon fell on his head" was mentioned only offhandedly? I think you misunderstood. And based on what I'm seeing about Ackbar that's not the same thing, at all. Ackbar gets Warrior Three'd. That is indeed shitting on a character. But there are plenty of examples where a character dying in between movies is perfectly fine, particularly if they present it right. It's never great, and most of the time it's because an actor didn't want to come back (or the sadder version where they actually died), but it's passable. None of which answers my question why they couldn't just undo/rewrite from Vector Prime onwards. You're depriving the conversation of context. One of the times his death was mentioned was explaining the actions of the publisher. One of the times was to introduce the conundrum before diving into more specifics. And when the specifics came up it wasn't mentioned off-handedly, it was said specifically that he was not going to do episode 7 and explain to the audience that a moon dropped on Chewie's head. The relative number of mentions can indicate a lesser importance, but not in this instance. At the end of the day there are ways to deal with deaths off screen in a respectful manner. In fact, if they wanted to kill off so many of the old heroes they probably should have done more off-screen deaths because it's getting a bit silly - Luke, Han, Admiral Ackbar our lovable octopus friend. They probably didn't have to be so heavy handed obliterating all of the EU. But that's really beside the point, I just pasted their reasoning for all to enjoy. I wasn't making any judgements on it, rather "this was their reason". EDIT: Off screen, not on screen
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i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 16, 2018 21:28:08 GMT
i haven't seen TLJ, and from the reviews... well most say something like; if you're a long time star wars fan, don't watch this movie. so, at best i'm waiting till it's free on amazon prime or netflix. now, i wasn't really happy that the force awakens rewrote the end of return of the jedi, and basically destroyed most of the EU unnecessarily. and i'm also pissed that disney removed kyle katarn from the timeline too. are they going for mara jade as well? (and wasn't a bit of that already canon iirc?) ---edit i've also heard a few reviewers saying that TLJ was very poorly edited. how did TFA rewrite the end of Jedi? it's taking forever to load anything so i'm likely not going to be able to brush up on my history before starting... i thought the damage caused by repealing net neutrality wasn't suppose to sink in for years, though i guess ISPs don't really care about being subtle anymore. *sigh* well, as best as i can remember as it's been a while since i've actually watched return of the jedi (at least in regards to the revisions i've actually seen of RotJ), imperial control over the galaxy is broken, and the rebel alliance begins to establish itself as the new government (now, true this last bit is more reading between the lines as this isn't actually shown on screen, even though this is generally the take given to this time period in most of the eu, or at least the bits of it i've seen). now, form what i can recall, as like i said i'm having trouble fact checking right now... the empire seems to be alive and kicking in TFA and still managing to maintain a good deal of control over large parts of the galaxy in a uniformed and organized fashion. or am i misremembering this?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 16, 2018 21:33:40 GMT
Yeah, that'll be even more fun.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 16, 2018 22:56:50 GMT
well, as best as i can remember as it's been a while since i've actually watched return of the jedi (at least in regards to the revisions i've actually seen of RotJ), imperial control over the galaxy is broken, and the rebel alliance begins to establish itself as the new government (now, true this last bit is more reading between the lines as this isn't actually shown on screen, even though this is generally the take given to this time period in most of the eu, or at least the bits of it i've seen). now, form what i can recall, as like i said i'm having trouble fact checking right now... the empire seems to be alive and kicking in TFA and still managing to maintain a good deal of control over large parts of the galaxy in a uniformed and organized fashion. or am i misremembering this? So it's not that RotJ itself is being retconned, it's that EU guesswork is being retconned?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 16, 2018 23:03:14 GMT
Well, at least once we're done arguing about TLJ, we've got the Solo movie to look forward to... Can hardly wait. The arguing will be epic.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 16, 2018 23:16:14 GMT
how did TFA rewrite the end of Jedi? it's taking forever to load anything so i'm likely not going to be able to brush up on my history before starting... i thought the damage caused by repealing net neutrality wasn't suppose to sink in for years, though i guess ISPs don't really care about being subtle anymore. *sigh* well, as best as i can remember as it's been a while since i've actually watched return of the jedi (at least in regards to the revisions i've actually seen of RotJ), imperial control over the galaxy is broken, and the rebel alliance begins to establish itself as the new government (now, true this last bit is more reading between the lines as this isn't actually shown on screen, even though this is generally the take given to this time period in most of the eu, or at least the bits of it i've seen). now, form what i can recall, as like i said i'm having trouble fact checking right now... the empire seems to be alive and kicking in TFA and still managing to maintain a good deal of control over large parts of the galaxy in a uniformed and organized fashion. or am i misremembering this? The commentary on Net neutrality aside... You are kind of mis remembering it, or maybe at least confusing things. The First Order is not the Empire but the First Order is an organization that is trying to bring the Galaxy back to Imperial Rule. The amount of control that they have over the galaxy is largely a matter of speculation but we do see that they do have quite a bit of resources. Though I think, a lot like the Republic, the First Order is decentralized and relies largely on business interests and its own industrial base to keep it going. I can't go into too much detail without spoiling TLJ. However there is still an Imperial Remnant and, while I am uncertain on what exactly they control either and amnot fully up on the new lore I think they control a portion of the Deep Core and are basically just in the back ground. It will be curious though based on the events of both TFA and TLJ if the First Order or the Imperial Remnant has gained significantly more power in the wake of the destruction of the Republic.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 16, 2018 23:25:41 GMT
Well, at least once we're done arguing about TLJ, we've got the Solo movie to look forward to... Can hardly wait. The arguing will be epic. Well, I don't know this thread might reach a consensus about Solo. I don't know how this thread is going to react. I think we're all used to arguing will all be confused.
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i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 16, 2018 23:52:15 GMT
well, as best as i can remember as it's been a while since i've actually watched return of the jedi (at least in regards to the revisions i've actually seen of RotJ), imperial control over the galaxy is broken, and the rebel alliance begins to establish itself as the new government (now, true this last bit is more reading between the lines as this isn't actually shown on screen, even though this is generally the take given to this time period in most of the eu, or at least the bits of it i've seen). now, form what i can recall, as like i said i'm having trouble fact checking right now... the empire seems to be alive and kicking in TFA and still managing to maintain a good deal of control over large parts of the galaxy in a uniformed and organized fashion. or am i misremembering this? So it's not that RotJ itself is being retconned, it's that EU guesswork is being retconned? no, not entirely. the bits about how the new republic formed and the imperial military shifting to a more tactical role, more akin to the rebellion before the empire's collapse actually... that bit was the eu reading between the lines. though i guess it's moot anyway, as i've just been informed i'm likely miss remembering things, and i'll accept that as i can't seem to check for myself at the moment. so, i'll just leave it there
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