Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Aug 6, 2016 8:29:49 GMT
In my opinion, Mage Hawke in Dragon Age 2 is something that is simply not believable.
What we have with Mage Hawke is an apostate mage living in Kirkwall for 10 years or so and they spent most of that 10 years living openly among the Kirkwall society. On the other hand, Anders, an ex-Grey Warden Mage, has to hide underground for most of the time he is in Kirkwall and be on the run. We also have Merrill who has to stay in the squalor of the Kirkwall Alienage where most Templars don't come and look for people.
The only exceptions to this is if Hawke decides to romance them and if a Mage Hawke decides to romance Merrill or Anders, they end up staying with Mage Hawke in Hightown, where all the nobles are, which does makes things worse when you think about it. Also, unlike Morrigan, Mage Hawke is not under the charge of a Grey Warden, which Morrigan was in Origins. Anders is most definitely not leading the party and he left the Wardens.
The whole premise of Dragon Age 2 is some nobody from nowhere ends up in Kirkwall and then climbing the social ladder to become the most important person in that city. I find it difficult to believe that a city filled with zealous Templars and an even more zealous Knight Commander would allow an apostate mage (who is not a Grey Warden or a Dalish Elf or a Tevinter or a Mortalitasi, who might end up becoming a Blood Mage and who might be in a romantic relationship with an ex-Gray Warden or a Dalish Elf) to run free for a long time without capturing them.
At least Origins and Inquisition gave logical reasons for why a Mage protagonist could run around casting spells in broad daylight and never getting arrested. Origins takes place during the Blight, and the Grey Wardens need powerful people to stop the Blight, so they have legal immunity to recruit whoever they need to save the world from the Blight, including Mages and Blood Mages. In Inquisition, the sky is torn and you have literally the only tool to repair it. Plus you have a religion touting you as their mascot and the Circles have dissolved.
Hawke could run around Hightown or the Gallows, casting spells everywhere and almost nothing would happen to them. Hawke could kill Templars and nothing would happen to them. Hawke could be talking to Knight Captain Cullen and would not get dragged to the Circle, even though Cullen in Dragon Age 2 was quite an anti-mage person. Conversely, Bethany, the other mage Hawke, either does not escape Templar scrutiny for long and is sent to the Gallows or becomes a Grey Warden or dies. I highly doubt Varric's bribes are that effective and that the Templars would not take his bribe and hunt down mage Hawke anyway.
The core issue is this - Mage Hawke's Templar immunity is poorly explained and the reason for this is that s/he has no such legal immunity to begin with, unlike Amell or Surana or Caron or Andras or Trevelyan or Lavellan or Adaar. Hawke does not get into Hightown until Act 2, which means s/he is a nobody refugee turned mercenary or criminal and therefore has no immunity. As stated previously, Bethany will be discovered and taken to the Circle before Hawke manages to get to Hightown if Hawke is not a Mage, so it makes Mage Hawke's complete gold-plated plot-armor that much more noticeable.
Furthermore, we see and hear of nobles losing their Mage children to the Circle all the time. In fact, nobles lose their status and thus social protection when they have demonstrate magical ability. Leandra mentions how the Amell family lost face when her cousin Revka had several Mage children, who all got taken to the Circle, and "me running off with an apostate didn't help matters", which contributed to their decline. Emile de Launcet is also a nobleman's son whose noble status does not protect him from the Circle. Why is it that literally every other noble family has to deal with the consequences when there is a mage in their family, but magically that same status is strong enough to protect Mage Hawke?
Last but not the least, Hawke does not become Champion of Kirkwall until the end of Act 2, so that is literally four years of running around shooting spells in broad daylight and at night without getting caught, questioned, harassed or arrested. The fact that Meredith threatens Mage Hawke in Act 3 is too little, too late and too ridiculous.
Finally, there will be some who argue that it is "gameplay and story segregation", to which I have to reply that Mage Hawke is immersion breaking to the limit and beyond which means the willing suspension of disbelief that any fantasy game player have would be strained to be point of absurdity and broken. Others might say that "it does not work for the story Bioware are trying to tell !", to which I have to say that such a story is poorly constructed and lacking in quality.
Have a nice day and cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 17:35:10 GMT
I suspect based on Meredith's dialogue, she was watching Hawke and letting him/her clean up all the messes even though she knew of him/her being a mage. We do start off a year later running away from Templars, but after Hakwe's good deeds and rise to nobility, Meredith just waited until Act 3 to take him/her in once the job was done. Hawke could have also been ignored at the behest of Orsino.
Also in regards to Legacy and DAI, a Hawke whose father's blood was used in Cory's revival makes his/her actions in DAI more believable too.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 18:04:34 GMT
In fact, there is some story anomaly, but at the beginning the mercenaries / smugglers help to hide him/her (I do not think it changes in the Act 2, he/she can still work with them). In the Act 1 he/she easily hiding in th low town, and DO NOT USE MAGIC IN KIRKWALL PUBLIC STREETS. Its just game mechanic stupidity. He/she do not wear (not necessary wear) mage robe in the whole game, some staff seems as polearm. Anders hiding at the darktown. In the Act2 he have beholdens (for example the baron), and Meredith had not come out his office, she was only fondle her nice red sword (Cullen says if Hawke speaks to her that Meredith has sequestered), and Hawke helped the templars and the Chantry too. Ergo: yes, maybe hardly to belive, that s/he still can hiding, but not totally impossible. In the Act 3 s/he are Champion of Kirkwall. Nobody know in Kirkwall (who not need to know), that s/he is a mage. He need to show to Feynriel's Father for his trust. As game mechanic, in the Hanged Man Hawke fought with his/her magic, but as story s/he dont used his/her magic. I have repeatedly said, the game is bleeding from several wounds. But with a little imagination you can accept that the mage Hawke can survive, and hide in Kirkwall.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 6, 2016 20:52:57 GMT
Plus honestly, money talks in a corrupt city.
Look at Gascard DuPuis or Quentin as examples; money and influence, or who they knew in the city, gives them status, which gives them some protection. Carver even mentions that fact it gives them something to hide behind.
The issue is it's never explicitly stated, just implied. That usually is better storytelling in some instances, but having a line in there by Meredith and Orsino to sum it up might have helped.
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Nashimura
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Post by Nashimura on Aug 6, 2016 22:06:07 GMT
Its very weird, even more so early when you do a quest with Cullen, he doesn't even know who you are... he really should cut you down, or at least mentioning the fact he should probably cut you down as soon as you cast that first spell.
Its weird, and a huge lack of foresight when designing the game.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Aug 6, 2016 22:13:55 GMT
As much as I love playing a mage Hawke, I agree with this. It's just odd, especially considering the way mages were being treated in the Kirkwall circle, that Hawke was able to run around free as a bird. I can see by Ch.3 how being the Champion might be protection, but before that? Just doesn't make much sense. Which is why I try not to think about it too hard when I'm playing.
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Post by Nashimura on Aug 6, 2016 22:33:57 GMT
As much as I love playing a mage Hawke, I agree with this. It's just odd, especially considering the way mages were being treated in the Kirkwall circle, that Hawke was able to run around free as a bird. I can see by Ch.3 how being the Champion might be protection, but before that? Just doesn't make much sense. Which is why I try not to think about it too hard when I'm playing. Its a shame, since playing as a mage is really fun and makes you feel really powerful. But you might still have that nagging feeling of how weird it is. The whole game is like that though, not just with Hawke... the first fight you have in the game, you will always have a mage... shooting fireballs while surrounded by nervous templars just inside the main gate. The whole game is a "don't think about it to much" kind of game to me.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2016 22:37:02 GMT
In the Circle the templars treat the mages badly, but seems they not be able to catch the apostates (seems the templars only able to catch Bethany). The mages scattered running around Kirkwall, and only Hawke hunt them. I think, Hawke have more than good chance to hiding. Unless Hawke do not report him/herself to the Templars, or walk willingly into the Circle, they never will catch him/her... The templars are quite useless things.
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 7, 2016 0:51:50 GMT
I think. The templars are quite useless things. Nah. Someone needs to keep the mages from blowing up the world, or sky, or Fade.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 7, 2016 0:55:22 GMT
I think. The templars are quite useless things. Nah. Someone needs to keep the mages from blowing up the world, or sky, or Fade. As Kirkwall protected by the Templars? I think that was not too effective. But the Templar Knight Commander was very impressive!
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 7, 2016 0:55:52 GMT
Nah. Someone needs to keep the mages from blowing up the world, or sky, or Fade. As Kirkwall protected by the Templars? I think that was not too effective. But the Templar Knight Commander was very impressive! Eh, more impressive then Harvestino
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Post by Catilina on Aug 7, 2016 1:01:45 GMT
As Kirkwall protected by the Templars? I think that was not too effective. But the Templar Knight Commander was very impressive! Eh, more impressive then Harvestino Abomination = abomination. But Orsino was desperate. What reason had Meredith to become an abomination?
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Post by Reznore on Aug 7, 2016 3:35:16 GMT
Its very weird, even more so early when you do a quest with Cullen, he doesn't even know who you are... he really should cut you down, or at least mentioning the fact he should probably cut you down as soon as you cast that first spell. Its weird, and a huge lack of foresight when designing the game. David Gaider wrote about this once in his blog , the oblivious Cullen case. They had a quest for mageHawke involving the Fade and explaining why he/she didn't get caught. It got cut . They forgot about Cullen but they did wrote a line so Meredith says the templars knew , but turned a blind eye (when she says she has reports about Hawke ending of act 2) I have to say I think it was probably for the best it got cut , because when I read "fade", I assume mageHawke would have used magic to solve the issue. I'd rather magic don't get too powerful to the point a mage can make a whole city of templars forget about him.
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Nashimura
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Post by Nashimura on Aug 7, 2016 3:40:55 GMT
Its very weird, even more so early when you do a quest with Cullen, he doesn't even know who you are... he really should cut you down, or at least mentioning the fact he should probably cut you down as soon as you cast that first spell. Its weird, and a huge lack of foresight when designing the game. David Gaider wrote about this once in his blog , the oblivious Cullen case. They had a quest for mageHawke involving the Fade and explaining why he/she didn't get caught. It got cut . They forgot about Cullen but they did wrote a line so Meredith says the templars knew , but turned a blind eye (when she says she has reports about Hawke ending of act 2) I have to say I think it was probably for the best it got cut , because when I read "fade", I assume mageHawke would have used magic to solve the issue. I'd rather magic don't get too powerful to the point a mage can make a whole city of templars forget about him. It would open a whole different can of worms if they had that, like why can't we just do it to solve all of our problems. I think just not writing fight scenes in front of templars would have done wonders.
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Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Aug 7, 2016 3:54:47 GMT
Its very weird, even more so early when you do a quest with Cullen, he doesn't even know who you are... he really should cut you down, or at least mentioning the fact he should probably cut you down as soon as you cast that first spell. Its weird, and a huge lack of foresight when designing the game. David Gaider wrote about this once in his blog , the oblivious Cullen case. They had a quest for mageHawke involving the Fade and explaining why he/she didn't get caught. It got cut . They forgot about Cullen but they did wrote a line so Meredith says the templars knew , but turned a blind eye (when she says she has reports about Hawke ending of act 2) I have to say I think it was probably for the best it got cut , because when I read "fade", I assume mageHawke would have used magic to solve the issue. I'd rather magic don't get too powerful to the point a mage can make a whole city of templars forget about him. Well, it could have involved Hawke making a deal with a Spirit of Compassion and the spirit watches over Mage Hawke by making Templars forget about him or her until Hawke becomes the Champion of Kirkwall. Personally, that would have been a neat solution. Either that or introduce the Arcane Warrior specialization. Just add an extra cave opening leading to an ancient phylactery Origins style to allow Hawke to unlock the Arcane Warrior specialization. That way Hawke can be a Mage but also wear armor and use weapons other than staves.
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Post by Rifneno on Aug 7, 2016 12:00:50 GMT
There's a part of Dragon Age 2 that doesn't make sense? Well now I've heard everything!
Nothing compared to the fact that the whole city is basically the house from Poltergeist and the Band of Three are literally the only ones who ever notice it.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 7, 2016 13:37:30 GMT
Bethany gets arrested for drama. Mage Hawke doesn't get arrested because they're probably not actually slinging spells around the Gallows - it's just a gameplay element.
Do we really need to rehash the exact same arguments from the old thread, which went on way too long as it is? Some people can suspend their disbelief for the sake of a simple gameplay mechanic, others want an in-universe justification.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 7, 2016 15:07:44 GMT
Bethany gets arrested for drama. Mage Hawke doesn't get arrested because they're probably not actually slinging spells around the Gallows - it's just a gameplay element. Do we really need to rehash the exact same arguments from the old thread, which went on way too long as it is? Some people can suspend their disbelief for the sake of a simple gameplay mechanic, others want an in-universe justification. Yeah that is pretty much the only issue there, it's a narrative dissonance from gameplay in that instance with Dragon Age II. Thankfully they do marry that narrative and gameplay together with friendship/rivalry mechanics...but nothing is ever perfect.
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Post by Nayawk on Aug 8, 2016 0:00:35 GMT
I have a hard time playing DA2 as a Mage for all these reasons. I still do it because playing mages is awesome but its annoying and frankly it just doesn't work.
And while I know that a lot of people are happy to hand wave 'game mechanics' when it comes to firing magic at templars 30 seconds after landing in Kirkwall, for me the story is the most important part of the game and the gameplay is part of that story, they should match up.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 8, 2016 3:59:02 GMT
I have a hard time playing DA2 as a Mage for all these reasons. I still do it because playing mages is awesome but its annoying and frankly it just doesn't work. And while I know that a lot of people are happy to hand wave 'game mechanics' when it comes to firing magic at templars 30 seconds after landing in Kirkwall, for me the story is the most important part of the game and the gameplay is part of that story, they should match up. They rarely do though. Has any BioWare game really matched up gameplay mechanics with their storyline?
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Post by Nayawk on Aug 8, 2016 4:12:33 GMT
Has any BioWare game really matched up gameplay mechanics with their storyline? Probably not, that doesn't mean it isn't an irritation to see it when it is that blatant. Like I said, I do play a mage in DA2, but it is jarring with the story and it would be nice to think that the powers that be could actually take the time to balance gameplay with the story. I mean its a story they have written, they have complete control over it.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 8, 2016 11:49:25 GMT
The super believeable Inquisition: Collect elfroot for potions, Collect minerals and rags! Fill the Inquisition supply! With your own Andraste(Coripheus/Solas)-blessed (very important) hand! Rather I vote Hawke. Much more believable [blood magic can help: hte mind control is useful thing (explaining the Templars forgetfulness)]!
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 8, 2016 12:04:49 GMT
I have a hard time playing DA2 as a Mage for all these reasons. I still do it because playing mages is awesome but its annoying and frankly it just doesn't work. And while I know that a lot of people are happy to hand wave 'game mechanics' when it comes to firing magic at templars 30 seconds after landing in Kirkwall, for me the story is the most important part of the game and the gameplay is part of that story, they should match up. Eh, I can't be that fussed. In DAO and DA2 you can have concussions, contusions, multiple fractures and broken bones, etc... and thirty seconds later you're perfectly fine, even if you don't drink a health potion or rest. And there are several occasions across all these games where you can waltz into someone's house, steal and sell their stuff, and they DGAF. Morrigan wears the same outfit for, like, twelve years. Her pregnancy with non-OGB Kieran can literally last over a year and she never shows. Sometimes it's just a matter of: "Welp, video game."
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Post by Catilina on Aug 8, 2016 15:19:44 GMT
I have a hard time playing DA2 as a Mage for all these reasons. I still do it because playing mages is awesome but its annoying and frankly it just doesn't work. And while I know that a lot of people are happy to hand wave 'game mechanics' when it comes to firing magic at templars 30 seconds after landing in Kirkwall, for me the story is the most important part of the game and the gameplay is part of that story, they should match up. Eh, I can't be that fussed. In DAO and DA2 you can have concussions, contusions, multiple fractures and broken bones, etc... and thirty seconds later you're perfectly fine, even if you don't drink a health potion or rest. And there are several occasions across all these games where you can waltz into someone's house, steal and sell their stuff, and they DGAF. Morrigan wears the same outfit for, like, twelve years. Her pregnancy with non-OGB Kieran can literally last over a year and she never shows. Sometimes it's just a matter of: "Welp, video game." Not to mention that you find an armor in a dead dragon's belly, which weared by a half-digested hero, and you happily wear immediately this stinky, body fluids, adipocere and whatever you can imagine covered stuff.
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