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Post by oyabun on Feb 24, 2017 11:19:46 GMT
The player's a tool too. He/she was picked up by Duncan not because he was a nice guy, but because he needed another warm body to fill up the Warden ranks and knows that the Warden has a very particular set of skills. That's the cycle in Dragon Age. People don't do things because they're nice, but because the world rests upon a very shaky foundation and people have to be willing to do things that are objectionable from our moral standpoints because the alternatives are arguably much worse. The keyword there being "arguably." I don't look down upon doing the Dark Ritual or not doing the Dark Ritual. I think they're both justifiable choices considering the ramifications of each. Perhaps, but questionable deeds aren't always inevitable. In this case, transferring a foreign soul to a baby's body before it can give consent isn't necessary in order to accomplish the main goal of ending the Blight. This is a debate that require it's own thread ,if you will create it I will surely comment on it. Only thing I will say for the child is that I remember that in DAO there was no clue at all to understand that the ritual wouldn't have sacrificed the original soul of the baby and the rules established AD-HOC by Gaider in DAI don't make any sense,they were created to tone it down.....
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Post by Catilina on Feb 24, 2017 11:34:43 GMT
The player's a tool too. He/she was picked up by Duncan not because he was a nice guy, but because he needed another warm body to fill up the Warden ranks and knows that the Warden has a very particular set of skills. That's the cycle in Dragon Age. People don't do things because they're nice, but because the world rests upon a very shaky foundation and people have to be willing to do things that are objectionable from our moral standpoints because the alternatives are arguably much worse. The keyword there being "arguably." I don't look down upon doing the Dark Ritual or not doing the Dark Ritual. I think they're both justifiable choices considering the ramifications of each. Duncan saw the Warden as a tool to save the world not to gamble it. His final decision was a mistake: he chose to induct into the order someone who had the strength but lacked the virtues and in the end got to live and enjoy the ill-gained fruits of his/her selfishness by powering up those Evanuris. All the grey wardens knew was: old god + darkspawn = blight. Based on the information the grey warden had at the time, there was no reason to believe that darkspawn would not hunt this reborn old god, turn him into an archdemon and start another blight so I can't even understand how someone can justify a grey warden choosing the dark ritual (without meta-gaming). It's so absurd.... Also not all people in DA do things because they want something in return.....that is a dangerous generalization...Anders healed a lot of people for free in DA2... Corrupted old god + darkspawn = blight. Morrigan told, that this isn't a danger. Yes, she can lie, but not necessarily, especially, that she (or even Flemeth) have no reason to make a new blight. So: yes, the Dark Ritual seems not good, but not because of these reasons. Not all Grey Warden is a saint. I don't understand. What you want to prove with Anders?
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Post by Catilina on Feb 24, 2017 11:38:28 GMT
Perhaps, but questionable deeds aren't always inevitable. In this case, transferring a foreign soul to a baby's body before it can give consent isn't necessary in order to accomplish the main goal of ending the Blight. This is a debate that require it's own thread ,if you will create it I will surely comment on it. Only thing I will say for the child is that I remember that in DAO there was no clue at all to understand that the ritual wouldn't have sacrificed the original soul of the baby and the rules established AD-HOC by Gaider in DAI don't make any sense,they were created to tone it down..... If I remember good, Morrigan told, that the fetus is empty yet.
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Post by akiza on Feb 24, 2017 19:08:36 GMT
Morrigan told, that this isn't a danger. Yes, she can lie, but not necessarily, especially, that she (or even Flemeth) have no reason to make a new blight. So: yes, the Dark Ritual seems not good, but not because of these reasons. Not all Grey Warden is a saint. There is no coherence at all in what you've said and none of the arguments you've made addressed my previous premises.Morrigan doesn't know what an Archdemon soul is nor what Flemeth and Solas wants to do with it,she has never cared for any of the consequences of her actions. Trusting in her word means nothing,in fact as a result of trusting her with the spirit of a former Archdemon 9 years later she lost that soul... ....and just because one refused the DR doesn't mean they are Saints...they are just more responsible wardens.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Feb 26, 2017 3:39:29 GMT
Not necessarily. I always make Alistair King at the Landsmeet, so the possibility of him dying if he deals the final blow to the Archdemon means that Ferelden is once again thrown into chaos. With Loghain dead and the Theirin dynasty destroyed, there's a very high risk of a prolonged interregnum and an ensuing civil war. Ferelden doesn't need that. After all, the Warden doesn't know that he/she is going to survive up until that last moment. Or that Riordan dies before he can deal the final blow. Is it really a selfish decision to have a guaranteed life-saving countermeasure (if one believes Morrigan) that can save the life of whomever slays the Archdemon, player character or not? Anora is always provided as an alternative to Alistair no matter what,Ferelden does not need Alistair,in fact it does not need the HoF either. As for the DR it is indeed a gamble that put at risk the whole world for one single GW so yea it is pretty selfish. Here's the thing about the DR: before the series establishes what the DR actually does, any outcomes are purely hypothetical, but the person who apparently knows how to perform the ritual claims that it will save a Warden. Other than what she explicitly says is supposed to happen, we don't have any good idea of what will happen when playing from a Warden's perspective (unless we're playing a clairvoyant Warden). One has the option to go on Morrigan's word, or not. Most of my characters trust her, so for them it's a slam-dunk. It's not an issue of selfishness, it's a matter of weighing options, and a genuine concern that a successful DR is better for the long-term health of Ferelden, maybe even Thedas in general. It's so easy to reverse matters and say "All of these ethical considerations to deny the DR are just feel-good means that fulfill a self-centered desire to act 'right.'" Depending on the Warden one plays, that could very well be true. Or it could be a load of rubbish. This isn't KOTOR, a game with black-and-white morality. Things are considerably more grey in Dragon Age and far more subtle avenues to RP a character. That includes the DR, no matter its potential outcomes.
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Post by Aren on Feb 26, 2017 5:10:50 GMT
Here's the thing about the DR: before the series establishes what the DR actually does, any outcomes are purely hypothetical, but the person who apparently knows how to perform the ritual claims that it will save a Warden. Other than what she explicitly says is supposed to happen, we don't have any good idea of what will happen when playing from a Warden's perspective (unless we're playing a clairvoyant Warden). One has the option to go on Morrigan's word, or not. Most of my characters trust her, so for them it's a slam-dunk. It's not an issue of selfishness, it's a matter of weighing options, and a genuine concern that a successful DR is better for the long-term health of Ferelden, maybe even Thedas in general. It's so easy to reverse matters and say "All of these ethical considerations to deny the DR are just feel-good means that fulfill a self-centered desire to act 'right.'" Depending on the Warden one plays, that could very well be true. Or it could be a load of rubbish. This isn't KOTOR, a game with black-and-white morality. Things are considerably more grey in Dragon Age and far more subtle avenues to RP a character. That includes the DR, no matter its potential outcomes. I don't think that argument follows. It seems to equate caring about someone to trusting them. Merely caring about someone has nothing to do with going with their suggestions.I think taking anyone at face value wihout any basic understanding of what they do is stupid. I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says. Even if you trust her, it's a matter of competence.What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind. Of course, trusting someone enough to be willing to hand her an Old God is arguably a bit of a stretch: there are degrees of trust, and while by this point Morrigan has earned some trust you can argue she hasn't earned this much.Which is rather easy to justify given that her reaction to Caladrius trying to buy elves from you is "'tis a reasonable enough starting offer" and her general "might makes right" policy. No Ultimate Sacrifice is required at all, but not doing one makes her stronger. There can only be as many Blights as there are Old Gods. By allowing the Old God that caused this Blight to be reborn, even if it's free of the taint, is risking another Blight if it ever gets corrupted again by darkspawn. You've basically just saved yourself at the risk of dooming everyone.Personally, I consider the dark ritual for this very reason the ultimately selfish choice. As a grey warden you should not be supposed to "presuppose" the future and gamble with it.
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Post by oyabun on Feb 26, 2017 5:42:12 GMT
I will never understand the people who claims to trust Morrigan on the DR when they have no understanding about the magic itself as well as the Old Gods... I would have accepted Morrigan's offer if I had any confirmation that the old god would be freed of the taint, but he wouldn't. The child would bear the darkspawn taint as well, thats why the archdemon's essence would be able to go to him in first place, as he is able to go to the warden that kills it. Is the taint that make that possible, not the dark ritual.
The way i see it, the dark ritual is just for generating a child with the taint, without it having to drink darkspawn blood. So we would have the darkspawn taint and the old god essence in the same vessel...who can tell what could happen with that child?Why is this old god able to reborn free from the taint in the first place?She doesn't offer any explanation at all...but people say they trust her..but based on What?
A lot of people died, or sacrificed so much for destroying this thing and stoping it, would you really put yourself above that all just for glory, love or even fear of death and the believe to not be selfish?
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Post by secretrare on Mar 5, 2017 20:23:33 GMT
A lot of people died, or sacrificed so much for destroying this thing and stoping it, would you really put yourself above that all just for glory, love or even fear of death and the believe to not be selfish? Indeed,it reminds me way too much of the plot in Lord of the rings where Elrond upon discovering that Isildur had claimed the One Ring for himself urged Isildur to throw the Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, but the seduction of the ring made Isildur refuse.So for the temptation of it they took an huge gamble that caused a war hunderd of years in the future.I expect the same from Urthemiel and Mythal they probably will use their power to cause another war in the future.So yea better if they are destroyed.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 7, 2017 18:59:10 GMT
Morrigan because she's a loathsome hypocrite,an obnoxious character who think to know better than everyone on everything and that see people just as mere tools for an end. "She is a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than me or anyone else". - Flemeth (DA2)
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Post by Baboontje on Mar 17, 2017 20:12:39 GMT
I don't see Oghren in this list. I hate him the most.
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Post by skeksi on Mar 18, 2017 19:38:23 GMT
The temptation to cop out and pick "Loved everyone" is strong - or at least, I don't think there was any character I actually hated.
I loved Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran and Shale. Loghain did some heinous things, but I still really enjoyed him as a character, and he makes Return to Ostagar very interesting. Wynne could be a little overbearing, but as with Loghain she had some interesting conversations and overall I enjoyed her. I found Alistair a bit irritating, but he adds a lot to the storyline of the game overall. Oghren grew on me in Awakening.
Going to have to vote for Sten, simply because a lot of the time (both in the game itself, and when discussing it IRL) I forget that he's even there. Better an irritating character than a forgettable one.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 20, 2017 12:48:40 GMT
Here's the thing about the DR: before the series establishes what the DR actually does, any outcomes are purely hypothetical, but the person who apparently knows how to perform the ritual claims that it will save a Warden. Other than what she explicitly says is supposed to happen, we don't have any good idea of what will happen when playing from a Warden's perspective (unless we're playing a clairvoyant Warden). One has the option to go on Morrigan's word, or not. Most of my characters trust her, so for them it's a slam-dunk. It's not an issue of selfishness, it's a matter of weighing options, and a genuine concern that a successful DR is better for the long-term health of Ferelden, maybe even Thedas in general. It's so easy to reverse matters and say "All of these ethical considerations to deny the DR are just feel-good means that fulfill a self-centered desire to act 'right.'" Depending on the Warden one plays, that could very well be true. Or it could be a load of rubbish. This isn't KOTOR, a game with black-and-white morality. Things are considerably more grey in Dragon Age and far more subtle avenues to RP a character. That includes the DR, no matter its potential outcomes. I don't think that argument follows. It seems to equate caring about someone to trusting them. Merely caring about someone has nothing to do with going with their suggestions.I think taking anyone at face value wihout any basic understanding of what they do is stupid. I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says. Even if you trust her, it's a matter of competence.What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind. Of course, trusting someone enough to be willing to hand her an Old God is arguably a bit of a stretch: there are degrees of trust, and while by this point Morrigan has earned some trust you can argue she hasn't earned this much.Which is rather easy to justify given that her reaction to Caladrius trying to buy elves from you is "'tis a reasonable enough starting offer" and her general "might makes right" policy. No Ultimate Sacrifice is required at all, but not doing one makes her stronger. There can only be as many Blights as there are Old Gods. By allowing the Old God that caused this Blight to be reborn, even if it's free of the taint, is risking another Blight if it ever gets corrupted again by darkspawn. You've basically just saved yourself at the risk of dooming everyone.Personally, I consider the dark ritual for this very reason the ultimately selfish choice. As a grey warden you should not be supposed to "presuppose" the future and gamble with it. It's basically gambling, yeah.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 21, 2017 2:25:43 GMT
I pick Morrigan,she was just too dumb and was unable to make one single intelligent advice in the whole game.
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Her brain is developed to think and work only for short term gains and that didn't changed in DAI as well.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 22, 2017 12:04:29 GMT
I pick Morrigan,she was just too dumb and was unable to make one single intelligent advice in the whole game. - Her brain is developed to think and work only for short term gains and that didn't changed in DAI as well. And yet the romanced HoF calls her "the wisest person I know", which is just Gaider patting himself on the back.
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Post by tidus on Mar 23, 2017 18:08:19 GMT
The only companion I don't like is Sten.. I never liked Sten from the start but, felt the need to recruit him now, he stays in his cage as Darkspawn fodder..
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Post by Iddy on Mar 23, 2017 19:43:52 GMT
I remember some old post where Gaider comments on fans' criticism of how Alistair follows the Warden no matter what, but then refuses if Loghain is spared. He thinks it is because people just want obedient companions. But no, the problem is the moral inconsistency. Your character can do far worse things than sparing Loghain and Alistair still won't leave. He only draws the line at "it affects my personal feelings", which is just petty.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 24, 2017 1:07:59 GMT
I remember some old post where Gaider comments on fans' criticism of how Alistair follows the Warden no matter what, but then refuses if Loghain is spared. He thinks it is because people just want obedient companions. But no, the problem is the moral inconsistency. Your character can do far worse things than sparing Loghain and Alistair still won't leave. He only draws the line at "it affects my personal feelings", which is just petty. I consider David Gaider to be a mediocre writer ,your last two posts on this thread are a support for my own claim. The main plots he has created are nothing special and they even have some plot holes while some of the characters he made are unable to follow their own morality just to force " fake hard choices" down our throat.The final stages of DAO are full of contrived writing,the writing of the GW in Ostagar is even worse than those of the GW of DAI.
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Post by akiza on Mar 24, 2017 1:36:55 GMT
I remember some old post where Gaider comments on fans' criticism of how Alistair follows the Warden no matter what, but then refuses if Loghain is spared. He thinks it is because people just want obedient companions. But no, the problem is the moral inconsistency. Your character can do far worse things than sparing Loghain and Alistair still won't leave. He only draws the line at "it affects my personal feelings", which is just petty. I don't think it's an inconsistency, rather I believe it's part of his nature to be petty like that. Afterall this is the same guy who murdered Yavana in the silent groove because " it affects my personal feelings"
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Post by Iddy on Mar 24, 2017 11:31:14 GMT
I remember some old post where Gaider comments on fans' criticism of how Alistair follows the Warden no matter what, but then refuses if Loghain is spared. He thinks it is because people just want obedient companions. But no, the problem is the moral inconsistency. Your character can do far worse things than sparing Loghain and Alistair still won't leave. He only draws the line at "it affects my personal feelings", which is just petty. I don't think it's an inconsistency, rather I believe it's part of his nature to be petty like that. Afterall this is the same guy who murdered Yavana in the silent groove because " it affects my personal feelings" Consistent in terms of character, yes. But it makes for a pretty messed up moral compass.
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Post by akiza on Mar 24, 2017 14:40:46 GMT
I don't think it's an inconsistency, rather I believe it's part of his nature to be petty like that. Afterall this is the same guy who murdered Yavana in the silent groove because " it affects my personal feelings" Consistent in terms of character, yes. But it makes for a pretty messed up moral compass. Alistair's moral compass is messed up since it's composed by Gaider's irascibility (which he projected into the character)+ Alistair's own behaviour. Same thing goes for most of the characters Gaider wrote in DA,there is always a part of his behaviour in their mind.
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Post by skeksi on Mar 26, 2017 13:03:17 GMT
Much as it irritates me, I don't think Alistair refusing at-and-only-at sparing Loghain is necessarily inconsistent as a character choice. It's one thing to follow your leader as they make decisions that don't affect you personally (even if he might disapprove/approve more of certain choices), but Alistair has huge pride in his role as a Grey Warden, but perhaps more importantly he sees Duncan as a father figure, and HATES Loghain for killing him, as he sees it. And he's been nursing this anger for nearly the whole game, waiting to see Loghain get punished, and then his fellow Grey Warden decides to spare him and invite him to join the order. I think to him it just pushes him that bit too far, and sullies the GW for him, probably especially when Riordan agrees. It's not admirable, and it's almost certainly not what Duncan would have wanted - the man who recruited traumatised youths in the midst of terrible situations whilst (in some cases) leaving their families/friends to die, and who killed a recruit to preserve the secret of the joining ritual is probably pragmatic enough to be all on board with the "Recruit this tactically minded general who is seen as a hero by many in Fereldan" train. But sometimes when something is personal to you, people don't always act rationally.
All that said, I haven't spent that much time with Alistair compared to some of the other companions, and I haven't read any of the extended universe/ novelisation material, so I might be missing something on that.
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Post by ninok on Mar 27, 2017 10:38:17 GMT
I think dog is cute and all that, but it can't really compare to human companions (they have banter, personal quests, some of them romance). The dog companion was done best in DA2, wish it were this way in DAO.
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Post by Kei on Mar 27, 2017 18:09:30 GMT
Much as it irritates me, I don't think Alistair refusing at-and-only-at sparing Loghain is necessarily inconsistent as a character choice. It's one thing to follow your leader as they make decisions that don't affect you personally (even if he might disapprove/approve more of certain choices), but Alistair has huge pride in his role as a Grey Warden, but perhaps more importantly he sees Duncan as a father figure, and HATES Loghain for killing him, as he sees it. And he's been nursing this anger for nearly the whole game, waiting to see Loghain get punished, and then his fellow Grey Warden decides to spare him and invite him to join the order. I think to him it just pushes him that bit too far, and sullies the GW for him, probably especially when Riordan agrees. It's not admirable, and it's almost certainly not what Duncan would have wanted - the man who recruited traumatised youths in the midst of terrible situations whilst (in some cases) leaving their families/friends to die, and who killed a recruit to preserve the secret of the joining ritual is probably pragmatic enough to be all on board with the "Recruit this tactically minded general who is seen as a hero by many in Fereldan" train. But sometimes when something is personal to you, people don't always act rationally. All that said, I haven't spent that much time with Alistair compared to some of the other companions, and I haven't read any of the extended universe/ novelisation material, so I might be missing something on that. Alistair doesn't leave if both Connor and/or Isolde(members of his family) are killed by the Warden in person and he just throws an hissy fit for sparing Loghain(which did not murdered Duncan an alpha hurolock did it and Alistair who lighted the beacon too late is co-responsible for that)He didn't even knew Duncan he meet him 6th months before Ostagar and the two barely spent time togheter since Duncan was busy in recruiting people,so why he is a father figure?I think Alistair mental sanity isn't that good,if he doesn't have an issue in following a Warden that murdered his family but has a problem only with Loghain.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 27, 2017 18:35:49 GMT
Much as it irritates me, I don't think Alistair refusing at-and-only-at sparing Loghain is necessarily inconsistent as a character choice. It's one thing to follow your leader as they make decisions that don't affect you personally (even if he might disapprove/approve more of certain choices), but Alistair has huge pride in his role as a Grey Warden, but perhaps more importantly he sees Duncan as a father figure, and HATES Loghain for killing him, as he sees it. And he's been nursing this anger for nearly the whole game, waiting to see Loghain get punished, and then his fellow Grey Warden decides to spare him and invite him to join the order. I think to him it just pushes him that bit too far, and sullies the GW for him, probably especially when Riordan agrees. It's not admirable, and it's almost certainly not what Duncan would have wanted - the man who recruited traumatised youths in the midst of terrible situations whilst (in some cases) leaving their families/friends to die, and who killed a recruit to preserve the secret of the joining ritual is probably pragmatic enough to be all on board with the "Recruit this tactically minded general who is seen as a hero by many in Fereldan" train. But sometimes when something is personal to you, people don't always act rationally. All that said, I haven't spent that much time with Alistair compared to some of the other companions, and I haven't read any of the extended universe/ novelisation material, so I might be missing something on that. True. Perhaps the point was never that the player is expected to agree with Alistair's behavior, but that good characters are flawed. People make mistakes. People are selfish. People are led by emotion rather than reason.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 28, 2017 22:06:00 GMT
Good characters aren't necessarly "flawed" or at least they are not that flawed,to the point of deciding to abandon friends to their fate because they decided to not kill,that's petty is not just being flawed.If that traitor must desert because he blamed Loghain for Duncan's death(which is false as he was the fool who committed all the senior GW on the front line despite knowing about their role for the US)then as the other user said,why he doesn't blame me if I kill the true members of his family? Or if I kill people for no reason? No,it have to be only Loghain because this stupid game forbid the HoF to be seen as evil or selfish no matter what they do.
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