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Post by Hrungr on Dec 10, 2016 21:59:50 GMT
In prior games, some of the best moments (for me) were the opportunities we had for solo challenges.
In DA:O we could get in on the Glory Proving, trash-talking and laying the smack down in 1-on-1 and 2-on-1 combat. We also had the opportunity to go 1-on-1 with Loghain with the fate of Ferelden on the line. There were also the Thieving Quests (which were fun handling solo) and becoming "The Dark Wolf". The Assassin's Quests as well.
In DA2, we again had the opportunity for a big, single-combat moment with the Arishok.
In DA:I... we didn't have any moments like these and I missed those "opportunities for individual achievement". Soloing High Dragons and Corypheus (to make it a "fair" fight) are fun, but you're not recognized for those achievements.
What I did like was that they were optional. If you didn't want to, you didn't have to. But they were among the things I looked forward to most in those games.
Now in DA4, if they do move towards a more "action-based" style of combat (with each class having built-in evade/block abilities), perhaps having a little more... self-sufficiency would make it easier to incorporate a few "Lone Wolf" segments.
From lore, we've heard of rival mages dueling in the streets of Minrathous... and duels in general are always fun. There's also an impressive Grand Proving which could make for some fun gladiatorial combat. But even more, I'd love to see multi-stage solo side-quests like the Thieving & Assassin Quests we had in DA:O. More class-based (specialization?) solo quests? More solo opportunities for gold 'n glory?
Thoughts?
Ideas?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2016 22:18:02 GMT
Only thing I could really add to this statement is the idea of a quest where you and your entire party go out and start it, even finish it together, but a section where you get seperated or decide to seperate for plot relevant reasons. So you go off and have your companions in another realm of the map. Thieving and Assassin quests might be nice for something. Like you have to kill a certain member of a particular group and so your party goes off to provide you cover.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 22:24:38 GMT
There were some solo parts in DAI, but there wasn't much combat in them. Sneaking in the Winter Palace, walking after Havens big brawl and the fade bit in CoTJ.
As for how they could use in DA4. Maybe attend a rivals party/ party which a rival is attending, and it's demanded you go solo to reduce the chance of slaughter. Then during the party you could collect info, steal stuff, plant stuff, kill the rival with a fork or gain some useful alliances. Or maybe there was an option to go solo, so you could skip most or all of the combat. Then maybe there would be a duel at the end. If you did it with a party, the dueler would have summons, if you snuck it would be proper one-on-one. That might be interesting.
Was never a fan of the solo missions, since I play these games for the companions, but don't mind doing it if the mission is interesting. (Edited the post because the first draft was a massive killjoy. And clowns are scary.)
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 10, 2016 23:42:41 GMT
We also soloed in the fade when we were at the mage tower, which was fun (at least after I figured out what I was doing). Fighting the Arishok is usually a mess for me, with Hawke running around columns, trying not to die. I always have dog with me and he helps to take points off the Arishok but that might be a mod that allows me to use dog. I enjoy both solo and group quest so I certainly wouldn't mind more solo quests.
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Post by Prince on Dec 11, 2016 0:50:05 GMT
Of what I know of the Games of DA can already be played that way,on solo.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 11, 2016 0:50:24 GMT
I liked those books when I was younger, but I don't know if Dragon Age should get into cross-overs.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 11, 2016 1:35:40 GMT
Only thing I could really add to this statement is the idea of a quest where you and your entire party go out and start it, even finish it together, but a section where you get seperated or decide to seperate for plot relevant reasons. So you go off and have your companions in another realm of the map. Thieving and Assassin quests might be nice for something. Like you have to kill a certain member of a particular group and so your party goes off to provide you cover. Yeah, another good example. On a side note... I wonder if separating the PC might also offer the opportunity to take "a more interesting route". One that might normally create issues of pathing/space if you had your companions along. I'm coming up short on good examples, so just spit-balling here: Maybe navigating an underwater section, or an area with narrow spaces/verticality. Finding a path through an area with environmental hazards or an area laden with large, mechanical traps.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 11, 2016 2:38:02 GMT
There were some solo parts in DAI, but there wasn't much combat in them. Sneaking in the Winter Palace, walking after Havens big brawl and the fade bit in CoTJ. As for how they could use in DA4. Maybe attend a rivals party/ party which a rival is attending, and it's demanded you go solo to reduce the chance of slaughter. Then during the party you could collect info, steal stuff, plant stuff, kill the rival with a fork or gain some useful alliances. Or maybe there was an option to go solo, so you could skip most or all of the combat. Then maybe there would be a duel at the end. If you did it with a party, the dueler would have summons, if you snuck it would be proper one-on-one. That might be interesting. Was never a fan of the solo missions, since I play these games for the companions, but don't mind doing it if the mission is interesting. (Edited the post because the first draft was a massive killjoy. And clowns are scary.) While true, DAI did have some solo sections, I should have made it more clear I was thinking more of solo "challenges". But good point about the Fade section - There were hazards to navigate around and some solo combat. And I definitely like your idea of providing solo vs group options for specific quests. My 2 bits regarding group vs solo... they've often said characters are the main strength of BioWare games and I agree. The banter is a big draw to bring along (and switch up) companions, not to mention executing those perfectly coordinated attacks. But we're with our companions nearly all the time, so it was nice to have a chance to shake it up for that reason alone. To have some opportunities to show off our PC's badassery and/or skillset... and have the game recognize that. I think because the game is primarily played as team effort, those "individual achievement" moments stood out all the more.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 11, 2016 3:25:10 GMT
I liked those books when I was younger, but I don't know if Dragon Age should get into cross-overs. You need to upgrade to higher quality software:
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 11, 2016 3:45:32 GMT
Well you already know I support the idea of solo Fight Club or challenge/duel mode. I like colfoley 's idea of solo sections in an otherwise full-party quest, but sparingly. The "PC gets lost in the Fade by their lonesome" trope has been done to death already. Spice it up with some twists, like go full Agatha Christie "And Then There Were None" -- you keep losing party members one by one until you are down to your lonesome and have to rescue them from Shelob or something like that (mixing my genres horrendously there). Or you start solo, you can't add any party members, but as you go along, they catch up with you and join you -- but you pick them in that moment rather than ahead of time. Or it's random, you cut open a cocoon and out pops random companion. Or, here's the winner, it's based on approval. You storm off in a huff, pissed off at Bann Teagan crawling up your nose about something and go to clear out that nest of spiderbears that everyone else has been too afraid to touch, by yourself. You fight one or two waves. Then, in order of highest to lowest approval, a party member joins you for a few more waves, then another, then the final. They started out respecting your wish to go it alone and then realized that they just couldn't stand it and chased after you anyway. And a good thing, because it turned out to be a lot harder than you thought. Ah heck, who am I kidding? This is what I really want:
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 11, 2016 4:35:40 GMT
We also soloed in the fade when we were at the mage tower, which was fun (at least after I figured out what I was doing). Fighting the Arishok is usually a mess for me, with Hawke running around columns, trying not to die. I always have dog with me and he helps to take points of the Arishok but that might be a mod that allows me to use dog. I enjoy both solo and group quest so I certainly wouldn't mind more solo quests. Good point - we had that solo challenge in the Fade too. And yeah, the duel with the Arishok was fantastic narratively speaking, but in practice it was, um... somewhat-less-glorious-than-expected if you were a mage.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 11, 2016 4:57:58 GMT
We also soloed in the fade when we were at the mage tower, which was fun (at least after I figured out what I was doing). Fighting the Arishok is usually a mess for me, with Hawke running around columns, trying not to die. I always have dog with me and he helps to take points of the Arishok but that might be a mod that allows me to use dog. I enjoy both solo and group quest so I certainly wouldn't mind more solo quests. Good point - we had that solo challenge in the Fade too. And yeah, the duel with the Arishok was fantastic narratively speaking, but in practice it was, um... somewhat-less-glorious-than-expected if you were a mage. Mage Hawke beating the Arishok always cracks me up, taking forever and a day. That video cracks me up...such an embarrassing display. I can't help wanting to solo it but know it won't look good at all.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 11, 2016 5:29:40 GMT
Well you already know I support the idea of solo Fight Club or challenge/duel mode. I like colfoley 's idea of solo sections in an otherwise full-party quest, but sparingly. The "PC gets lost in the Fade by their lonesome" trope has been done to death already. Spice it up with some twists, like go full Agatha Christie "And Then There Were None" -- you keep losing party members one by one until you are down to your lonesome and have to rescue them from Shelob or something like that (mixing my genres horrendously there). Or you start solo, you can't add any party members, but as you go along, they catch up with you and join you -- but you pick them in that moment rather than ahead of time. Or it's random, you cut open a cocoon and out pops random companion. Or, here's the winner, it's based on approval. You storm off in a huff, pissed off at Bann Teagan crawling up your nose about something and go to clear out that nest of spiderbears that everyone else has been too afraid to touch, by yourself. You fight one or two waves. Then, in order of highest to lowest approval, a party member joins you for a few more waves, then another, then the final. They started out respecting your wish to go it alone and then realized that they just couldn't stand it and chased after you anyway. And a good thing, because it turned out to be a lot harder than you thought. Ah heck, who am I kidding? This is what I really want: Just another reason why Citadel is the best ME DLC... Solo and Full Roster missions. Damn, I wish we could have had that kind of moment in the final fight of DAI... Perhaps start off with your entire team, but slowly start shedding them to block the progress of Cory's forces until you reach a point where you can face him 1-on-1. But I definitely like the Agatha/Aliens idea (how's that for mixing genres...), which would certainly be an interesting spin for a DA quest. Especially if you could go full Purple-Hawke when rescuing them.
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Post by fenris on Dec 11, 2016 5:58:46 GMT
I thought there were plenty of "lone wolf" missions in DA:I. I mean, the winter palace alone is probably at least as long as the Fade mission in DA:O. Also no, I think the quests and gameplay were awesome as they are. After all - less party members = less banter!
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 11, 2016 7:06:41 GMT
After all - less party members = less banter! Less banter...? You don't need party members for great banter!
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 11, 2016 7:18:21 GMT
Of what I know of the Games of DA can already be played that way,on solo. And for me, the Oh-Hell-Nah-Moment Award has to go to that first encounter with the dog lord mob of DA2 when I made the mistake of leaving the Hanged Man at night by myself. So much kiting and backstabbing. I easily spent 15 minutes running around Lowtown trying to pick off the mooks while avoiding their stupid mabari. Good times.
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 13, 2016 7:11:40 GMT
Oh definitely! I absolutely loved the solo quests that you mention in the OP. What terrifies me though is the suggestion we might be moving toward more action-y combat (dodge etc). Is that confirmed? I hope not... I don't think that is needed to have more 'lone wolf' quests. I'm not sure how the two are related?
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 13, 2016 13:29:29 GMT
Love solo quests, though what really excites me about Tevinter is the Proving Arena.
I ❤️ arena questlines in Bioware games. I ❤️ them in KoTOR, I ❤️ them in Jade Empire, I ❤️ The provings in DAO, I even liked Pinnacle Station in the first ME, and the Citadel Arena was great.
It's best when there's a questline full of intrigue attached, but the opportunity for personal achievement for my character is worthy in and of itself.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 14, 2016 3:26:25 GMT
Oh definitely! I absolutely loved the solo quests that you mention in the OP. What terrifies me though is the suggestion we might be moving toward more action-y combat (dodge etc). Is that confirmed? I hope not... I don't think that is needed to have more 'lone wolf' quests. I'm not sure how the two are related? This thread started off as a bit of a spin-off from the "... Action Based Combat" thread. As far as adding more action-based elements, nothing's confirmed, but there have been a few rumblings that they may be looking to explore that (at an overall slower pace). The general thought there being if they do introduce a little more player skill to the game (block/evade/etc.), the increase in self-sufficiency could in turn help with these solo side-excursions & major single combat events (like the Arishok).
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Dec 14, 2016 3:55:16 GMT
When I think of fun solo bits a tend to think more of escaping drakon keep, the fade (yes I enjoyed the fade, shush), and the winter palace.
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 14, 2016 11:55:25 GMT
Oh definitely! I absolutely loved the solo quests that you mention in the OP. What terrifies me though is the suggestion we might be moving toward more action-y combat (dodge etc). Is that confirmed? I hope not... I don't think that is needed to have more 'lone wolf' quests. I'm not sure how the two are related? This thread started off as a bit of a spin-off from the "... Action Based Combat" thread. As far as adding more action-based elements, nothing's confirmed, but there have been a few rumblings that they may be looking to explore that (at an overall slower pace). The general thought there being if they do introduce a little more player skill to the game (block/evade/etc.), the increase in self-sufficiency could in turn help with these solo side-excursions & major single combat events (like the Arishok). That's fair. I just thought that the Arishok battle worked without the action-y combat, so why change it? It's ok though, you can't stop progress I guess. Such is life!
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 14, 2016 19:58:21 GMT
Speaking of branching into related areas, "lone wolf" content touches on the player skill vs. character skill conundrum. Consider a character who is a veteran warrior with years of combat experience. You'd expect such a character to do well in a Fight Club, ye olde tournament or gauntlet situation, right? But what if the player is a fumble fingers? Is the lone wolf content a way to train the player up to match the skill of the character, or should the game "fill in" for the player's lack of skill with auto-targeting, choreographed give and take of blows, or maybe put the whole thing into cutscene mode? The reverse problem is also evident. Say the player is very skilled in FRP combat, but the character is an introverted scholar who's never struck anything in anger? Joseph Anderson pointed out this same problem in his analysis of Fallout 4 -- the male character is a war veteran, but the female character is lawyer and mom to an infant child. But the mom is just as badass at swinging a rocket-assisted sledgehammer and a laser rifle as the male, without any explanation? The game can certainly simulate the character getting better and better at combat skills, but will the player have the patience to put up with that? Or should this always be the basis for the game-intro tutorial? Should all PC's start out as unskilled? I obviously don't have all the answers, but I am curious about how lone wolf content could be used to address these issues.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 14, 2016 20:36:39 GMT
Speaking of branching into related areas, "lone wolf" content touches on the player skill vs. character skill conundrum. Consider a character who is a veteran warrior with years of combat experience. You'd expect such a character to do well in a Fight Club, ye olde tournament or gauntlet situation, right? But what if the player is a fumble fingers? Is the lone wolf content a way to train the player up to match the skill of the character, or should the game "fill in" for the player's lack of skill with auto-targeting, choreographed give and take of blows, or maybe put the whole thing into cutscene mode? The reverse problem is also evident. Say the player is very skilled in FRP combat, but the character is an introverted scholar who's never struck anything in anger? Joseph Anderson pointed out this same problem in his analysis of Fallout 4 -- the male character is a war veteran, but the female character is lawyer and mom to an infant child. But the mom is just as badass at swinging a rocket-assisted sledgehammer and a laser rifle as the male, without any explanation? The game can certainly simulate the character getting better and better at combat skills, but will the player have the patience to put up with that? Or should this always be the basis for the game-intro tutorial? Should all PC's start out as unskilled? I obviously don't have all the answers, but I am curious about how lone wolf content could be used to address these issues. I can't claim to have the answers, either, but - in the Dwarf Commoner Origin Glory Proving section, it was simply handled by levelling/scaling. The character was level 2 or 3 at most, and so were the opponents. Combat - in Dragon Age, at least - has always appeared as a conceptualisation of what an actual fight between these characters would be like. If it stays that way, I don't see any issue with inserting lone wolf scenarios and situations. The problems will arise when/if the Witcher style of play is forced on the player. Not suggesting those problems will be insurmountable, of course, just that they'll be present. In the Witcher games, Geralt has decades of experience in fighting the fiercest beasts and greatest warriors, including other witchers, but he can be undone by a handful of wolves if you - the player - aren't paying attention. Similarly, Batman is - well, he's Batman - but if you are early in the game in Arkham City/Knight, you can go down if you just try button mashing. This can be contrasted with Dragon Age (Origins in particular, but all 3 really) where if you're a 'badass' that translates into results unless you actively gimp your character.
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Post by Gilsa on Dec 14, 2016 20:59:46 GMT
I like solo content when there are great cinematic sequences to go with it. Leviathan is one example. The Overlord is another. Soloing something for the sake of the challenge does not interest me as much, but I totally get that it thrills other players.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 14, 2016 21:07:32 GMT
Oh definitely! I absolutely loved the solo quests that you mention in the OP. What terrifies me though is the suggestion we might be moving toward more action-y combat (dodge etc). Is that confirmed? I hope not... I don't think that is needed to have more 'lone wolf' quests. I'm not sure how the two are related? This thread started off as a bit of a spin-off from the "... Action Based Combat" thread. As far as adding more action-based elements, nothing's confirmed, but there have been a few rumblings that they may be looking to explore that (at an overall slower pace). The general thought there being if they do introduce a little more player skill to the game (block/evade/etc.), the increase in self-sufficiency could in turn help with these solo side-excursions & major single combat events (like the Arishok). Didn't they kinda implement such skills as talents in DAI? Rogues had an evade skill and warriors had block. Mages had... ghost step I think it was called?
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