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Post by phoray on Dec 11, 2016 23:55:52 GMT
I feel like it was a pretty tight and well thought out story. Also, my suspension of disbelief is easy to turn of for the most part, so I miss things. I ask because I am writing a massive fan fiction and intend to do my best to "fix" plot holes as I go along. Because I can. But also because I'm curious, due to my opinion already stated, if there really are any. EDIT ADD: Plot Holes Suggested: - Duncan not telling Alistair about how Archdemons are killed (in spite of being absolutely certain it was a true Blight
- How realistic Vaughn taking elves from their wedding is
- Riordan still not telling Alistair and the Warden about how ADs are killed at Eamon's estate
- Riordan choosing Loghain over any of the other excellent companions for possible joining
- Riordan suggesting a joining at all when he'd said there were no supplies for such
- Aeducan being blind to Bhelen's treacherous nature. They should know, they were raised together.
- Tower of Ishael being overrun by Darkspawn from "secret chambers" Loghain actually knows about
- How Jowan got hired to be Connor's teacher long enough to do much of anything before the Warden arrives on the scene. In the same vein, when did Loghain meet him (timing issues)
- Riordan jumping off a tower instead of being a bit more patient to see if mages and archers could bring the creature down.
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Post by phoray on Dec 11, 2016 23:57:28 GMT
My husband and I recently...debated how realistic a bunch of nobles stealing elven brides in broad daylight was.
So, I've been considering how else these actions could happen. More believable if done at night? For example
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Post by Sifr on Dec 12, 2016 11:23:43 GMT
Vaughn being the son of the Arl of Denerim does mean he effectively controls the City Guard, so it's not surprisingly he abuses that power and has them to turn a blind eye to what he does to the Elves in the Alienage.
That Howe later has control over the Alienage when he usurps the position of Arl of Denerim, seems to suggest that the Alieange falls under their domain, explaining why Vaughn feels free to torment them as the son of the landlord.
That being said, he may have been more brazen with the abduction because with is father currently serving at Ostagar, he didn't feel like he had to be discreet to hide his activities. He likely tries to keep his rape and murder of the Elven women secret from his father, who we can infer was the only person capable of him on a short leash.
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Post by capn233 on Dec 13, 2016 1:38:54 GMT
My husband and I recently...debated how realistic a bunch of nobles stealing elven brides in broad daylight was. So, I've been considering how else these actions could happen. More believable if done at night? For example Hey, that scene made it on Colbert Report though.
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Post by secretrare on Dec 15, 2016 10:30:51 GMT
DAO Plot holes these are those that i remember:
-Duncan and the others senior GW(the others 3 you can see in the Dwarf noble Origin) being secretive about the US with Alistair despite him being a GW like them (they told to him everything else,not just about the long term consequences of the joining but even the fact that the Archdemons need to be killed by a GW you can chek this at Ostagar from him with persuasion), for the sole purpose to force the player to be unaware of it until the end of the game,sort of a non-sense tie up for the DR,(this had to be made ala Gaider)
-The tower of Ishal being overrun by Darkspawns from "secret" low chambers (yes I'm aware that an Ogre made an hole into the floor but in order to do that he used the roof of the low chambers)despite the fact that the tower was checked and controlled plenty of times by Loghain and the king's forces,making the whole questline to light the beacon heavily flawed.
-Jowan being able to travel from the Tower of the circle of Magi(He is first seen there in the Mage Origin)to Denerim to meet Loghain(why in the meantime is supposed to be in Ostagar until the first meeting with Tegan and the nobles) and then to Redclieffe to poison Eamon and to be a mentor for Connor in such a short amount of time(rememeber that in the meantime the mage warden is still in the Korkari wilds) that actually this would have been possible only if he was a lord of time
-Riordan not wanting to talk about the Archdemon with the Warden at Eamon's Estate in Denerim despite the questions asked to him(exactly about the archdemons/old gods) and despite you being a Grey warden like him.
-Riordan not wanting to create more GW with or other than Loghain (Oghren,Sten,Chautrien,some warrior dwarf do i need to say more?) despite him having the resources to do so and being aware on how to kill Archdemon Urthemiel,he refuse because writers (David Gaider) wanted to make a stronger tie up for the DR nosense of the Morrigan subplot.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 16, 2016 13:18:51 GMT
DAO Plot holes these are those that i remember: -Duncan and the others senior GW(the others 3 you can see in the Dwarf noble Origin) being secretive about the US with Alistair despite him being a GW like them (they told to him everything else,not just about the long term consequences of the joining but even the fact that the Archdemons need to be killed by a GW you can chek this at Ostagar from him with persuasion), for the sole purpose to force the player to be unaware of it until the end of the game,sort of a non-sense tie up for the DR,(this had to be made ala Gaider) -The tower of Ishal being overrun by Darkspawns from "secret" low chambers (yes I'm aware that an Ogre made an hole into the floor but in order to do that he used the roof of the low chambers)despite the fact that the tower was checked and controlled plenty of times by Loghain and the king's forces,making the whole questline to light the beacon heavily flawed. -Jowan being able to travel from the Tower of the circle of Magi(He is first seen there in the Mage Origin)to Denerim to meet Loghain(why in the meantime is supposed to be in Ostagar until the first meeting with Tegan and the nobles) and then to Redclieffe to poison Eamon and to be a mentor for Connor in such a short amount of time(rememeber that in the meantime the mage warden is still in the Korkari wilds) that actually this would have been possible only if he was a lord of time -Riordan not wanting to talk about the Archdemon with the Warden at Eamon's Estate in Denerim despite the questions asked to him(exactly about the archdemons/old gods) and despite you being a Grey warden like him. -Riordan not wanting to create more GW with or other than Loghain (Oghren,Sten,Chautrien,some warrior dwarf do i need to say more?) despite him having the resources to do so and being aware on how to kill Archdemon Urthemiel,he refuse because writers (David Gaider) wanted to make a stronger tie up for the DR nosense of the Morrigan subplot. If we are looking at DAO with criticism in order to recognize the plot holes then we may easily discover that the majority of them are the consequence of the maneuvers pulled by the writers (primarily David Gaider) ,which imply that they were intentional for the most part rather than mistakes. They are originated long before Ostagar as you legitimately pointed out and I have little if no doubts about the fact that the "Origin" (sorry for the pun) of them all is intrinsecally tied to the Morrigan's subplot of the Dark ritual(which was not part of the first drafting of DAO),that's why we got an inconsistent behaviour from Riordan,Duncan and Alistair as well as the whole convoluted Landsmeet.
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Post by phoray on Dec 16, 2016 16:00:49 GMT
Seems a bit silly. If one likes all of their companions... I mean, there isn't a sure thing that even if you hated everyone around you, that it wouldn't still be you to make the final blow. And if you don't want your soul kerploded, then the Dark Ritual is just as appealing. They didn't need to restrict the number of Wardens to two to make me want to do the Dark Ritual.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Dec 16, 2016 16:15:16 GMT
-The tower of Ishal being overrun by Darkspawns from "secret" low chambers (yes I'm aware that an Ogre made an hole into the floor but in order to do that he used the roof of the low chambers)despite the fact that the tower was checked and controlled plenty of times by Loghain and the king's forces,making the whole questline to light the beacon heavily flawed. Loghain's soldiers at Ostagar are actually aware of the chambers below the Tower of Ishal. You can find this out from the one guarding the gates to the tower, before you go into the camp. (That is: arrive with Duncan but instead of going into the camp, go the opposite way to the tower.) Of course this just raises more questions. If Loghain was *aware* of the 'secret' chambers then what exactly is his plan for that tower?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 16, 2016 21:42:54 GMT
Seems a bit silly. If one likes all of their companions... I mean, there isn't a sure thing that even if you hated everyone around you, that it wouldn't still be you to make the final blow. And if you don't want your soul kerploded, then the Dark Ritual is just as appealing. They didn't need to restrict the number of Wardens to two to make me want to do the Dark Ritual. Nah the DR would have lost a lot if it wasn't for the writers manuvers,especially because with Loghain there a many would have see as good the possibility to take revenge on him by using the US so of course there was the need to force things a little bit.
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 0:07:56 GMT
My husband and I recently...debated how realistic a bunch of nobles stealing elven brides in broad daylight was. So, I've been considering how else these actions could happen. More believable if done at night? For example Vaughn's a noble so I took that as the same as when some nobles in Britain did the right of first night way back in tme. At least I think thats true.
Well, it wasn't presented that way at all, for one. And I was looking at Wikipedia, and it seems all there are are "references" but no actual proof of such a practice. I think the fact that some laws were passed to illegalize it may have meant that some nobles were doing it, hence the law, but it wasn't common across the board by a long shot or generally approved of. I thought the act was more along the lines of "one step above property" issues.
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 0:12:20 GMT
Seems a bit silly. If one likes all of their companions... I mean, there isn't a sure thing that even if you hated everyone around you, that it wouldn't still be you to make the final blow. And if you don't want your soul kerploded, then the Dark Ritual is just as appealing. They didn't need to restrict the number of Wardens to two to make me want to do the Dark Ritual. Nah the DR would have lost a lot if it wasn't for the writers manuvers,especially because with Loghain there a many would have see as good the possibility to take revenge on him by using the US so of course there was the need to force things a little bit. For people who hate Loghain (which are a large number of people) and love Alistair (another large batch of people), Loghain was never an option. In fact, my first play through, I either couldn't open the safe or totally missed it, so Riordan never even came forward to try to make Loghain a warden. Even if every other party member had been a Warden, I would have done th e Dark Ritual so that none of my friends, but especially my romanced Alistair, would die. Some people are far more pragmatic than I their first play through. They stop and think. I'm an emotional basket case that runs from one big story moment to the next in a very short amount of time. There is no thinking, there is only reacting. Thinking happens on the 2nd and trd and 4th play throughs.
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 0:40:43 GMT
Well, it wasn't presented that way at all, for one. And I was looking at Wikipedia, and it seems all there are are "references" but no actual proof of such a practice. I think the fact that some laws were passed to illegalize it may have meant that some nobles were doing it, hence the law, but it wasn't common across the board by a long shot or generally approved of. I thought the act was more along the lines of "one step above property" issues. Your absolutely right, it wasn't presented that way in the dialog. I put that in there myself because it made sense to me. I've read about the practice in history books about Scotland but don't know if it is true. Seen it in movies.
Was kind of agreeing with you that it's odd or could be a plot hole on why Vaughn would take the women. The Chantry priest just stood there and acted as if Vaughn taking the girls was normal. Got no answers though.
How is your writing coming along?
Hmmm...looking back on my first play through, I definitely didn't think of it as right of first night. I don't think Vaughn knew anyone was getting married. I think he was drinking, wanted entertainment, and suggested to his friends that they pick up some free fun down at the alienage. It was coincidentally, and narratively required, their wedding day. That the Chantry cleric just stood by seems more like limited resources, but I imagine they greatly disapproved although they themselves have no power to step in at that moment. If Vaughn is in on it with the guards, as another implied above, and the Chantry Cleric is powerless in that moment, then there is no one to step them from wht they were doing. It's very possible that if no one had intervened, there would have been a slap on the wrist, or at least a fine or...something for Vaughn. But then the Alienage rioted, and his atrocities were swept under the rug in the mess. I passed my exam on Dec 6th and 4/7 days are nearly entirely consumed with work and driving to and from it (5 hours one way, stay at an Airbnb, etc). So, I'm really only doing about 500-1000 words every Friday because I like playing Dragon Age when I can when I'm at home. And I just got home, so it's time for another batch of writing. But if you're interested, my first 760 words have been approved here: archiveofourown.org/works/8356144/chapters/20185000And Chapter 2 is there, but, er... don't read it yet. My first chapter is 9:18 Dragon, and Chapter 2 is 9:20 Dragon. But I have an entire Arlathvhen to write between those two points. So there are 7 chapters I need to write... I guess what I'm saying is half of chapter 1 is up and Chapter 8 is up, which means there is a big gap.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 17, 2016 2:23:50 GMT
Nah the DR would have lost a lot if it wasn't for the writers manuvers,especially because with Loghain there a many would have see as good the possibility to take revenge on him by using the US so of course there was the need to force things a little bit. For people who hate Loghain (which are a large number of people) and love Alistair (another large batch of people), Loghain was never an option. In fact, my first play through, I either couldn't open the safe or totally missed it, so Riordan never even came forward to try to make Loghain a warden. Even if every other party member had been a Warden, I would have done th e Dark Ritual so that none of my friends, but especially my romanced Alistair, would die. Some people are far more pragmatic than I their first play through. They stop and think. I'm an emotional basket case that runs from one big story moment to the next in a very short amount of time. There is no thinking, there is only reacting. Thinking happens on the 2nd and trd and 4th play throughs. that wasn't what I meant,if the PC would have been aware of the US at the landsmeet(which is not possible in game due to the maneuvers pulled by the writers to push the DR)then killing Loghain would have been totally insane regardless of the personal feelings toward him. The DR being a power boost for Solas is not preferable than using Loghain at that point,rather than killing him without any gain.
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 2:29:11 GMT
For people who hate Loghain (which are a large number of people) and love Alistair (another large batch of people), Loghain was never an option. In fact, my first play through, I either couldn't open the safe or totally missed it, so Riordan never even came forward to try to make Loghain a warden. Even if every other party member had been a Warden, I would have done th e Dark Ritual so that none of my friends, but especially my romanced Alistair, would die. Some people are far more pragmatic than I their first play through. They stop and think. I'm an emotional basket case that runs from one big story moment to the next in a very short amount of time. There is no thinking, there is only reacting. Thinking happens on the 2nd and trd and 4th play throughs. that wasn't what I meant,if the PC would have been aware of the US at the landsmeet(which is not possible in game due to the manevers pulled by the writers to push the DR)then killing Loghain would have been totally insane regardless of the personal feelings toward him. Why would we invite the insanely paranoid guy who's been trying to kill us the entire time and not just turn to our troop of loyal non insane companions? Teh conscription doesn't apply ONLY to criminals. The ARchdemon has been sighted, everyone is very aware of this being a real Blight (only Loghain is in total denial). Wynne would have done it. Oghren, probably, I mean he joins very voluntarily later! The only people who would not or are incapable are Morrigan and Shale. Well, Sten may not have joined, but then again, maybe he would have. He's a souless soldier, wht's a little archdemon blood? Also, any one of the many LEgion of the Dead I get to join the war effort every game. They're already dead.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 17, 2016 17:02:33 GMT
Vaughn's a noble so I took that as the same as when some nobles in Britain did the right of first night way back in tme. At least I think thats true. Well, it wasn't presented that way at all, for one. And I was looking at Wikipedia, and it seems all there are are "references" but no actual proof of such a practice. I think the fact that some laws were passed to illegalize it may have meant that some nobles were doing it, hence the law, but it wasn't common across the board by a long shot or generally approved of. I thought the act was more along the lines of "one step above property" issues. Whether droit du seigneur did actually exist or not in medieval Europe, we do know that something similar to it exists in Thedas. Orlesian Chevaliers have been said to use their prestige or high-born status to rape women without reproach, which we know did happen to Loghain's mother and almost happened to Liselle, an Orlesian merchant in Denerim. Can't see why the same wouldn't be true of certain high-born in Ferelden, who might take advantage of their position to get away with any and all manner of crimes? Sergeant Kylon even remarks on this being true of the Denerim Guard. Because half of his men are the illegitimate sons of lords, he's forced to ignore the majority of their transgressions, despite them being "worse than the miscreants we occasionally arrest. Some of them are the criminals we have to arrest."
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Post by mike3207 on Dec 17, 2016 20:12:15 GMT
A combination of Duncan recruiting the only surviving Cousland(that we know of) and refusing to search for Fergus. The continuation of the family is important, and Duncan just ignores it.
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Post by phoray on Dec 17, 2016 21:13:10 GMT
A combination of Duncan recruiting the only surviving Cousland(that we know of) and refusing to search for Fergus. The continuation of the family is important, and Duncan just ignores it. Why would Duncan know the continuation of the Cousland family would be important?
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Post by mike3207 on Dec 18, 2016 2:46:33 GMT
Duncan's been in Ferelden a long time. He likely hasnt recruited the Cousland boy before because of Bryces influence.
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Post by phoray on Dec 18, 2016 2:50:55 GMT
Duncan's been in Ferelden a long time. He likely hasnt recruited the Cousland boy before because of Bryces influence. But making Fergus a Warden would make him infertile. So, finding him would not continue the Cousland line. if the Cousland line were that important, he wouldn't have let a Cousland become a Warden at all. Cailan was quite alive, so his staunch supporters bloodline would hardly rate Duncan's interest?
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Post by badking on Dec 18, 2016 22:33:43 GMT
I recall a topic named "Riordan why are you trying to make us fail?" and way back the only logical answer was to make DR plotline "better" About Rirordan I will also add him killing himself in the most stupid way possible (Come on! Jumping from a palace is this a military strategy Bioware? And he got lucky that Archdemon passed convinently right under him) which works half way because writers said so,instead to wait for those elven archers and mages i gathered to bring it down on the floor with ranged weapons and spells. In 'The Last Flight' it takes a whole squadron of blood magic enhanced griffons mounted by skilled grey wardens to take down the Archdemon Andoral, albeit at great cost (only three griffons remain by the time Andoral is taken down). So the fact that one guy took down Urthemiel is pretty incredible to be fair. If it wasn't for that bizarre exploding tower, he'd have probably done even more damage. On the other hand, Riordan does feel too much like an overly convenient tacked-on exposition/plot device who appears in your hour of need. I really wish there'd been one of those 'meanwhile' scenes with Loghain/Howe that introduced him earlier in the game to make his introduction later on less jarring and artificial.
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Post by mike3207 on Dec 19, 2016 3:02:56 GMT
Duncan's been in Ferelden a long time. He likely hasnt recruited the Cousland boy before because of Bryces influence. But making Fergus a Warden would make him infertile. So, finding him would not continue the Cousland line. if the Cousland line were that important, he wouldn't have let a Cousland become a Warden at all. Cailan was quite alive, so his staunch supporters bloodline would hardly rate Duncan's interest? That's sort of the plot hole-Duncan shouldn't have been trying to recruit a Cousland at all, but if he was, he needed to make sure one member of the family remained untainted. It worked out that way, but his behavior toward one of the most important families in Ferelden took the risk of getting the Wardens exiled again, if he hadnt met his end at Ostagar.
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Post by phoray on Dec 19, 2016 3:07:06 GMT
But making Fergus a Warden would make him infertile. So, finding him would not continue the Cousland line. if the Cousland line were that important, he wouldn't have let a Cousland become a Warden at all. Cailan was quite alive, so his staunch supporters bloodline would hardly rate Duncan's interest? That's sort of the plot hole-Duncan shouldn't have been trying to recruit a Cousland at all, but if he was, he needed to make sure one member of the family remained untainted. It worked out that way, but his behavior toward one of the most important families in Ferelden took the risk of getting the Wardens exiled again, if he hadnt met his end at Ostagar. So the plot hole is...that Duncan should not take the youngest of three of a great Noble Line because the other two, and their already born children, are possibly dead? So, he should have ensured Fergus being alive and then let baby Cousland drink?
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Post by Domakir on Dec 19, 2016 9:32:22 GMT
But making Fergus a Warden would make him infertile. So, finding him would not continue the Cousland line. if the Cousland line were that important, he wouldn't have let a Cousland become a Warden at all. Cailan was quite alive, so his staunch supporters bloodline would hardly rate Duncan's interest? That's sort of the plot hole-Duncan shouldn't have been trying to recruit a Cousland at all, but if he was, he needed to make sure one member of the family remained untainted. It worked out that way, but his behavior toward one of the most important families in Ferelden took the risk of getting the Wardens exiled again, if he hadnt met his end at Ostagar. Can you explain a little more? Because I don't see how is that a plot hole. You're saying that because the Cousland are the most important family after royalty Duncan shouldn't have recruited the warden without making sure at least Fergus was still alive to continue the line. This seems more like a personal opinion to me than a plot hole. I haven't played any DA games in a long time but aren't the GW allow to recruit whoever they want with the Right of Conscription? Because I remember that's exactly what Duncan does if the the warden refuses to join the GW.
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Dreadnaw Rising
12,571
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Dec 19, 2016 10:18:18 GMT
That's sort of the plot hole-Duncan shouldn't have been trying to recruit a Cousland at all, but if he was, he needed to make sure one member of the family remained untainted. It worked out that way, but his behavior toward one of the most important families in Ferelden took the risk of getting the Wardens exiled again, if he hadnt met his end at Ostagar. Can you explain a little more? Because I don't see how is that a plot hole. You're saying that because the Cousland are the most important family after royalty Duncan shouldn't have recruited the warden without making sure at least Fergus was still alive to continue the line. This seems more like a personal opinion to me than a plot hole. I haven't played any DA games in a long time but aren't the GW allow to recruit whoever they want with the Right of Conscription? Because I remember that's exactly what Duncan does if the the warden refuses to join the GW. Well, I think he's implying that when the dust settles and it could have turned out that the whole Cousland line had been wiped out except for the Hero of Fereldan... That is would have caused a political mishap between the Wardens and Fereldan. Which, I'm pretty sure it is mentioned that even with the Right of Conscription, that the Wardens do try to be careful not to abuse it or step on any political toes. But that is more in between Blights, not when an actual Blight is happening-- at that point, everyone supports their conscription rights whole heartedly. But I think this whole suggestion requires far too much "future seeeing" thatn Duncan could possibly have had. Regardless of the Cousland line ending or not ending, it's only super politically relevant in a world where Cailan is not only dead, but due to the details of his death, Anora is not accepted as de facto Queen and Loghain doesn't try to assume political control. Since Duncan dies within minutes of Cailan, and Anora/Loghain debacle didn't start until a few days later after the details of said death got out... the political ramifications of conscripting the last, possibly, Cousland are hardly on his mind, nor can we expect him to have known the outcome of the battle and resultant political turmoil that would lead the Couslands to being important at all.
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Domakir
N3
I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 382 Likes: 1,032
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Domakir
I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
382
August 2016
domakir
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Domakir on Dec 19, 2016 10:38:57 GMT
Can you explain a little more? Because I don't see how is that a plot hole. You're saying that because the Cousland are the most important family after royalty Duncan shouldn't have recruited the warden without making sure at least Fergus was still alive to continue the line. This seems more like a personal opinion to me than a plot hole. I haven't played any DA games in a long time but aren't the GW allow to recruit whoever they want with the Right of Conscription? Because I remember that's exactly what Duncan does if the the warden refuses to join the GW. Well, I think he's implying that when the dust settles and it could have turned out that the whole Cousland line had been wiped out except for the Hero of Fereldan... That is would have caused a political mishap between the Wardens and Fereldan. Which, I'm pretty sure it is mentioned that even with the Right of Conscription, that the Wardens do try to be careful not to abuse it or step on any political toes. But that is more in between Blights, not when an actual Blight is happening-- at that point, everyone supports their conscription rights whole heartedly. But I think this whole suggestion requires far too much "future seeeing" thatn Duncan could possibly have had. Regardless of the Cousland line ending or not ending, it's only super politically relevant in a world where Cailan is not only dead, but due to the details of his death, Anora is not accepted as de facto Queen and Loghain doesn't try to assume political control. Since Duncan dies within minutes of Cailan, and Anora/Loghain debacle didn't start until a few days later after the details of said death got out... the political ramifications of conscripting the last, possibly, Cousland are hardly on his mind, nor can we expect him to have known the outcome of the battle and resultant political turmoil that would lead the Couslands to being important at all. I really have to replay DAO because I barely remember half of the things. But even if it causes political problems isn't stopping the Blight more important than the preservation of one single family no matter how importatn that family is? I can see that it will definitely cause some issues but I don't see it as a plot hole.
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