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Post by Superhik on Oct 17, 2017 3:15:18 GMT
In the original plot of DAO Loghain was mind-controlled by the Archdemon and everything he did was premeditated to favor the Archdemon ,that includes the poisoning of Eamon and everything else Loghain and Howe did. The plot however was changed later in development,except with some parts in Ostagar,so the final product still had a portion of the first plot-line that wasn't properly removed. Even if it simplifies his motivations it would kind of make sense with some of the things you learn... messing up with scout patrols ( army ends up overwhelmed) , his men taking control of the tower ( taken over from within), that ominous turn : ...yes, Cailan: glory for us all. He would have worked better if player was placed in situation of having to ally with Orlais, and Howe/Poisoning Eamon cut off from game. Otherwise, his persecution of wardens didn't really make any sense.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2017 5:38:39 GMT
I actually prefer my version. Which is his absolute paranoia and abhorrence of Orlais twisted him into destroying himself and his own country. And it wasn't until he lost the duel at the landsmeet that he finally had his moment of clarity.
Right before I cut off his head.
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Norstaera
N3
Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 385 Likes: 745
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This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Post by Norstaera on Oct 17, 2017 14:10:10 GMT
Loghain didn't need the Archdemon to get into his head, even if that were feasible.
He hated Orlais to the point of paranoia. He also believed the Grey Wardens kidnapped Maric for a venture into the Deep Roads years before when Cailan was a young boy. Maric chose to go, but that doesn't mean he was able to convince Loghain the Wardens (non-Ferelden Wardens) were at fault. In fact, Maric's agreeing to let the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden probably didn't help Loghain's attitude. Add that an Orlesian mage was First Enchanter at Lake Calenhad at the time and working with the Architect . . . Loghain didn't trust Orlesians, Grey Wardens, or mages. He didn't even trust Fereldans who wanted to build ties with Orlais and other nations.
Over the years that hatred built until he had permanent blinders and paranoia by the time darkspawn emerged in force near Ostagar. IMO he's more tragic because his actions were caused by his own flawed reasoning than an outside force. We can see in real life how personal flaws in a leader can tear a country apart. Sadly, no Archdemon can take the blame.
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Post by phoray on Oct 17, 2017 22:40:02 GMT
What was it that Flemeth foresaw? "He will betray you. Each time, worse than the last."
Tricking Marric into killing his own elven lover. Pushing Rowan onto Marric even though she was in love with Loghain. Killing Marric's son, Cailan, at Ostagar. Literally running the country, Marric's last and only love, into the ground during a Blight.
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Sokemis
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
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Post by Sokemis on Oct 17, 2017 22:43:18 GMT
I actually prefer my version. Which is his absolute paranoia and abhorrence of Orlais twisted him into destroying himself and his own country. And it wasn't until he lost the duel at the landsmeet that he finally had his moment of clarity. Right before I cut off his head. I wish I could have "liked" this more than once Over the years that hatred built until he had permanent blinders and paranoia by the time darkspawn emerged in force near Ostagar. IMO he's more tragic because his actions were caused by his own flawed reasoning than an outside force. We can see in real life how personal flaws in a leader can tear a country apart. Sadly, no Archdemon can take the blame. This too
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 18, 2017 19:40:35 GMT
Why couldn't Sten, Oghren, Wynne, Leliana, or even Dog become Grey Wardens instead of Loghain.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 18, 2017 20:38:18 GMT
Why couldn't Sten, Oghren, Wynne, Leliana, or even Dog become Grey Wardens instead of Loghain. If I remember it rightly, it also serves as alternate sentence for criminals.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 18, 2017 20:40:21 GMT
Why couldn't Sten, Oghren, Wynne, Leliana, or even Dog become Grey Wardens instead of Loghain. If I remember it rightly, it also serves as alternate sentence for criminals. I know but that still doesn't explain why couldn't ask anyone else to become one. Given what happens in Awakenings I'm sure Oghren would jumped at the chance. Sten, Leliana and Wynne probably would have volunteered as well.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 18, 2017 20:43:28 GMT
If I remember it rightly, it also serves as alternate sentence for criminals. I know but that still doesn't explain why couldn't ask anyone else to become one. Given what happens in Awakenings I'm sure Oghren would jumped at the chance. Sten, Leliana and Wynne probably would have volunteered as well. Well they made up for it in Awakening by turning everyone and their mother into one.
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Jarovbees
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 330 Likes: 1,061
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Jarovbees on Oct 18, 2017 21:05:54 GMT
It's in Awakening, but I always thought it was weird that Nathaniel initially disapproves (if you don't talk him out of it) for saving Amaranthine. You know, the city where the sister he'd just reunited with lives? It just doesn't seem like that very important factor was taken into account.
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davesin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 489 Likes: 859
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by davesin on Oct 19, 2017 10:27:43 GMT
His sister should appear in DA2 anyway. So... Nathaniel probably knew she isn't there anymore or he saw it strickly from military perspective. But yeah, it seems very weird.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 19, 2017 18:28:54 GMT
If I remember it rightly, it also serves as alternate sentence for criminals. I know but that still doesn't explain why couldn't ask anyone else to become one. Given what happens in Awakenings I'm sure Oghren would jumped at the chance. Sten, Leliana and Wynne probably would have volunteered as well. I disagree; being a Grey Warden would be completely outside Sten's role in the Qun. The Qunari have no treaties or obligations with the Wardens, and their tactics and philosophies are more often than not counter to the Qun. Going through the Joining could be seen as treason, so I think Sten would refuse Conscription. Violently, if pressed. Given her Dark Ritual plans, Morrigan would also likely shapeshift into a raven and fly off if Conscripted. Wynne I see volunteering reluctantly, since she's already on borrowed time and her Faith Spirit might not be strong enough. Leliana would survive because writer's pet , and Zevran would likely die.
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Norstaera
N3
Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 385 Likes: 745
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Stealth Swooper
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Norstaera
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Post by Norstaera on Oct 19, 2017 18:45:38 GMT
It's not an alternate sentence for criminals, at least not automatically. A Warden-Commander may decide to recruit a prisoner (convicted or not) but only if they see something in the individual that makes them think that person might survive the Joining and be a good Warden. It wouldn't make sense to have the majority of their ranks be criminals. Some people give them a hard time because they know some people outside the law become Grey Wardens. If the majority of Wardens were criminals or former criminals, why would anybody see them as anything but another gang of outlaws? Who would trust them?
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Post by Superhik on Oct 20, 2017 3:06:13 GMT
It's not an alternate sentence for criminals, at least not automatically. A Warden-Commander may decide to recruit a prisoner (convicted or not) but only if they see something in the individual that makes them think that person might survive the Joining and be a good Warden. It wouldn't make sense to have the majority of their ranks be criminals. Some people give them a hard time because they know some people outside the law become Grey Wardens. If the majority of Wardens were criminals or former criminals, why would anybody see them as anything but another gang of outlaws? Who would trust them? that's obvious, I was talking about in context of it being alternate sentence for Loghain, since he goes through miraculous sanity recovery after gettin his ass kick in the duel.
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Norstaera
N3
Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 385 Likes: 745
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Stealth Swooper
1178
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Norstaera
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Aug 24, 2016 16:13:41 GMT
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Post by Norstaera on Oct 20, 2017 12:22:00 GMT
ah, okay then.
I'm not so sure about the miraculous sanity recovery bit, though. I will admit it can certainly seem like it. Sometimes, I even agree.
However, there are a couple of moments when I think he seems to realize he might be wrong but he's too far down the road he chose to do anything about it. Maybe it's not so much a miraculous recovery as a way to put down the burden he never should have been carrying. He has to be defeated in battle, because he's a fighter and he knows Ferelden needs a fighter.
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secretrare
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Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 240 Likes: 212
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Post by secretrare on Jan 12, 2018 16:26:22 GMT
What was it that Flemeth foresaw? "He will betray you. Each time, worse than the last." Tricking Marric into killing his own elven lover. Pushing Rowan onto Marric even though she was in love with Loghain. Killing Marric's son, Cailan, at Ostagar. Literally running the country, Marric's last and only love, into the ground during a Blight. Nvm message was too old to reply,my mistake.
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Post by phoray on Jan 14, 2018 15:49:45 GMT
Nvm message was too old to reply,my mistake. ?? no such thing as necromancy on a game already, what, ten years old?
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absinthiana
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Drunken joyrider of stolen farm equipment.
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 3 Likes: 13
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Drunken joyrider of stolen farm equipment.
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Post by absinthiana on Jan 19, 2018 23:28:07 GMT
It's in Awakening, but I always thought it was weird that Nathaniel initially disapproves (if you don't talk him out of it) for saving Amaranthine. You know, the city where the sister he'd just reunited with lives? It just doesn't seem like that very important factor was taken into account. His sister should appear in DA2 anyway. So... Nathaniel probably knew she isn't there anymore or he saw it strickly from military perspective. But yeah, it seems very weird. In that DAO:Awakenings vein - I don't understand Nathaniel's willingness to go along with the Architect. Unsure if it's just my playthroughs, but my Death to All Darkspawn! stance actually cost me approval points with him. This is what I don't get: as an Orlesian Grey Warden, it's likely - and as HoF, it's almost certain that you've encountered at least one Broodmother. So you know about those and it's possible you've mentioned them to your fresh-faced Wardenettes. If you recruit Sigrun, some of your Wardenettes will see Broodmothers for themselves. And everybody is going to hear how Broodmothers are made by corrupting and raping Dwarven and surfacer women. (The spoiler felt necessary.)
I think it's fair to assume that the Architect wouldn't want Darkspawn going extinct, so how can there possibly be a peace? All I could think when I lost those approval points was, "Wow, that's...Wow. Either Nathaniel is a complete and total scumbag and I didn't notice, or this is a big, steaming pile." - I know, it's not exactly major, but it really threw me. Until the final chapter, Nathaniel seemed to be ticking the Archetypical Hero boxes.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2018 1:43:49 GMT
It's in Awakening, but I always thought it was weird that Nathaniel initially disapproves (if you don't talk him out of it) for saving Amaranthine. You know, the city where the sister he'd just reunited with lives? It just doesn't seem like that very important factor was taken into account. His sister should appear in DA2 anyway. So... Nathaniel probably knew she isn't there anymore or he saw it strickly from military perspective. But yeah, it seems very weird. In that DAO:Awakenings vein - I don't understand Nathaniel's willingness to go along with the Architect. Unsure if it's just my playthroughs, but my Death to All Darkspawn! stance actually cost me approval points with him. This is what I don't get: as an Orlesian Grey Warden, it's likely - and as HoF, it's almost certain that you've encountered at least one Broodmother. So you know about those and it's possible you've mentioned them to your fresh-faced Wardenettes. If you recruit Sigrun, some of your Wardenettes will see Broodmothers for themselves. And everybody is going to hear how Broodmothers are made by corrupting and raping Dwarven and surfacer women. (The spoiler felt necessary.)
I think it's fair to assume that the Architect wouldn't want Darkspawn going extinct, so how can there possibly be a peace? All I could think when I lost those approval points was, "Wow, that's...Wow. Either Nathaniel is a complete and total scumbag and I didn't notice, or this is a big, steaming pile." - I know, it's not exactly major, but it really threw me. Until the final chapter, Nathaniel seemed to be ticking the Archetypical Hero boxes. I'm pretty sure Nathaniel's pragmatic stances were less about
the creation of broodmothers and more about dealing with the immediate crisis as quickly and efficiently as possible. Basically, "let's end the current hostilities and deal with the Awaken Darkspawn's long term future when we have the luxury of time to think about it".
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Post by mictlantecuhtli on Jan 22, 2018 18:09:43 GMT
By the time I reach the Deep Roads I could've easily killed the archdemon but the game didn't have an interrupt to jump on the things back and kill it. The biggest plotholes come in Inquisition when none of the stuff you did in Origins matters.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 22, 2018 23:40:40 GMT
Is male Aeducan just a total deadbeat dad
I mean, he might have abandoned one son to go chase Morrigan and his other son (the special one)
Poor baby Duncan/Endrin/Trian/Gorim is going to have abandonment issues
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 23, 2018 5:35:21 GMT
Is male Aeducan just a total deadbeat dad I mean, he might have abandoned one son to go chase Morrigan and his other son (the special one) Poor baby Duncan/Endrin/Trian/Gorim is going to have abandonment issues I'd throw in some major resentment issues as well. Imagine how Aeducan's kid would feel growing up watching his uncle and cousin parade around the palace, knowing that this birthright should have gone to both his father and him? He may even come to resent his father for having gotten exiled and costing him his birthright. Being a noble is better than being casteless, but he should have been a prince. What if he has to watch his back (even more than most dwarves) because there are whispers that the son of Aeducan has more of a legitimate claim on the throne than Bhelen does? If Aeducan has become a Paragon for having ended the Blight, that would make his son even more worthy than Bhelen or his child. And Bhelen isn't the sort of guy who'd take kindly to hearing those whispers, he'd likely arrange an "accident" to befall his nephew if he got too much trouble or became popular. --- Speaking of deadbeats, I kinda wish that Cousland had adopted Amethyne, the daughter of Iona. Call me old fashioned, but if I were to seduce a young mother who then died as a result of political intrigue involving my family, then the very least I can do is ensure her kid doesn't grow up alone and starving on the streets.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 23, 2018 5:56:35 GMT
Is male Aeducan just a total deadbeat dad I mean, he might have abandoned one son to go chase Morrigan and his other son (the special one) Poor baby Duncan/Endrin/Trian/Gorim is going to have abandonment issues I'd throw in some major resentment issues as well. Imagine how Aeducan's kid would feel growing up watching his uncle and cousin parade around the palace, knowing that this birthright should have gone to both his father and him? He may even come to resent his father for having gotten exiled and costing him his birthright. Being a noble is better than being casteless, but he should have been a prince. What if he has to watch his back (even more than most dwarves) because there are whispers that the son of Aeducan has more of a legitimate claim on the throne than Bhelen does? If Aeducan has become a Paragon for having ended the Blight, that would make his son even more worthy than Bhelen or his child. And Bhelen isn't the sort of guy who'd take kindly to hearing those whispers, he'd likely arrange an "accident" to befall his nephew if he got too much trouble or became popular. I always imagined Bhelen's kid was a way for Bioware to "cut the branches", so to speak. If you pick Bhelen to be king of Orzimmar, Endrin II inherits the throne. If you pick Harowwmont, secret Bhelen loyalists eventually stage a coup to crown the younger Aeducan. Hell, given the family history, I wouldn't be surprised if Endrin II seized the throne himself in both scenarios.
I don't think I've ever done a Cousland run where they go to bed alone. Do you find Iona and Dairren's bodies during the attack, or do they just disappear?
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Post by mictlantecuhtli on Jan 23, 2018 11:55:06 GMT
Is male Aeducan just a total deadbeat dad I mean, he might have abandoned one son to go chase Morrigan and his other son (the special one) Poor baby Duncan/Endrin/Trian/Gorim is going to have abandonment issues Fuck that kid. Never wanted a crotch goblin anyway, that's why I stab Morrigan too.
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boxofscreaming
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 943 Likes: 1,658
inherit
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boxofscreaming
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 23, 2018 17:30:36 GMT
What I don't get is Jowan's ritual. Why doesn't anyone suggest sacrificing, say, a cow to fuel it? Animals' blood works perfectly well to fuel the Warden's own spells, after all.
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