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Post by jadedragon on Dec 27, 2016 18:56:08 GMT
Inquisition is known for its side quest basically being unchained fetch quest that left little to be desired while Origins probably had the most variety in actual Quest types. Its easy to forget sometimes because there was so many quest in Origins that certain quest chains were complete different from Mage Collective to Chantry to Slim crime wave to Crows. I would love more lore solo play moments meaning not just soloing the game with a good build but actual moments were are characters have to do something solo. For a game that leans so heavy to party based combat it really stands out when you have to do a mission alone or with a limited party. Some examples of Quest.
-Solo boss duel. I was disappointed Our Inquisitor is the only main character without the option to solo a boss fight. I think that would have been a good alternate choice for the Winter Palace mission when we have the option to expose Flo and murder knife or arrest her. Instead of murder knife a one on one duel would have worked or maybe if Flo had the Freeman General duel on her behalf to expose the Inquisitor as a fraud something of that nature. It was a really cool and badass moment in my opinion that the Warden had the choice to duel Loghain and Hawke the Arishok. While the Arishok fight was hard thats just game mechanics that could have been worked on for DA:I to make a solo duel against a boss much better.
-Duo missions. Again via lore not taking out 2 party members but when Warden and Alistar had to escape the Fort or 2 party members had to rescue them or Hawke and Tallis duo adventure in the DLC. DAI kinda had this with Mage Quest and Dorian but not really because that moment didnt last as long as the others that was more similar to the Sloth Mage quest just a smaller scale were you was displaced from your companions and had to find them. But this type of missions should return.
-Tournament Quest. Something both DA2 and DAI missed out on. Origins took advantage of the Proving very well and showed how important it was to Dwarven culture. While DA2 and Inquisition didnt exactly have a chance to do a Proving because they never went there but I see no reason the Champion or the Herald was not invited into the Grand Tourney. That is like the biggest event in the Free Marches and we have yet to precipitate it just became apart of Blackwall background story. But I did hope that DAI would release a DLC with the Inquisition invited to the Tourney I mean a new major power why wouldnt the Inquisitor be invited. It didnt have to be a serious DLC or quest and possible could have included us fighting companions like Blackwall and Iron Bull or Sera. I hope DA4 takes advantage of the Huge Proving Arena in Tevinter great chance for Solo fun.
-Roguish type missions. Gladiator type Tournaments come off as very warriorish quest even though any class can do it just like any class could do the thief and assassin missions but they are still more roguish in nature. Origin once again had these type of quest sneaking thru the castle or estate to steal and DA2 did have sneaking in mark of the assassin if not done better because of actual mechanics involved. Inquisition missed alot of opportunities with Orlais to the point it never really felt like we were interacting with the culture we heard about in previous games. Given the Game and Bard influence in Orlais some sneaking missions throughout the city would have been a nice touch for the game. Hopefully DA4 brings this back to the player as well especially if Dorian words are true about how it is in the North.
-Monster Hunting. This was in neither game so far but instead of just killing Dragons just because we can I would like to see more unique monster return like the Oak tree monsters and werewolves and whatever is native to the North. Let there be a Bounty Board of sorts or a type of Guild hall that will pay us for hunting these epic beast eventually each chain building up to Dragon Fights for the big bucks.
-Dungeon Expedition and Treasure Hunting. Again not really apart of any game but to define these things more would help out the series. Instead of just exploring a ancient temple or dungeon or Deep Roads path there should be something of known value we searching for. The closest to this was in DA2 deep roads expedition. But instead of making it a major plot point actually having a quest chain were we save up money to do this expeditions to different dungeons and ruins creates a risk reward type quest. Spend a certain amount to either get something that triples what we spent or maybe nothing there but a giant spider either way its a good unpredictable different type of quest the series neeeds.
Basically Origins is always the best of the 3 games for me because of Quest variety. Types of quest were different and Inquisition actually got hurt by its supposed strength having a spymaster to send people to do it for you. In Inquisition we always sent someone on a wartable mission to do the fun stuff for us we just reacted to the after effect if best. Hopefully DA4 moves away from that or uses something like a wartable just to be something to allow us to start the quest ourselves vs just send people while we do he boring quest. More Quest variety is good and at least one epic Solo boss battle should return.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 27, 2016 20:40:09 GMT
Agreed. Some of this was already covered in the improvements for DA4 thread, but a recap in depth doesn't hurt anything. At a very high level, there's a lot of interest in two related changes: 1) quality over quantity, and 2) more diversity. It's a bit hard to list out all the different types of quests desired, because it's a bit of putting the cart before the horse. An important element of quality over quantity is that quests should be in service to the narrative. That's what underlies a lot of complaints about the side-quests in DAI -- they have no connection to the main narrative. While the devs should have a large toolbox of quest types to pull from, ultimately, what they need to figure out first is what the narrative is, and then pick quests to match. So, given what we suspect about what DA4 will be about, I would expect more quest diversity in the direction of intrigue, covert ops, assassinations, intel gathering, interrogation, counter-insurgency ops, influence peddling, wilderness tracking and maybe strategic warfare on a grand scale. Nothing from the traditional list derived from Origins, in other words. Well, maybe a solo boss fight. BTW, it's not true that there is no Monster Hunting in DAI. There are at least two quests that would qualify as Monster Hunting. Nothing like a Witcher 3 contract, of course, but recognizable as such.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 27, 2016 21:41:09 GMT
The problem is that DA O set the bar ridiculiously high for Side quests. It, and the Witcher 3, are the only two games that I have played, imo, which really entirely nailed its side quests. And one of the things that DA O did really right. But since DA O is my least favorite of the three...
But yes, I agree. I don't think the quests in DA I was necessarily bad but they lacked variety. After all when you have to close about 70 odd fade rifts and do multiple quests in multiple regions involving specifically people's rings and giving it to them...it gets a little bit old. They could have easily cut the rifts in half if it meant higher end side quests.
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Post by jadedragon on Dec 28, 2016 0:46:02 GMT
I do like some elements DAI put in like Winter Palace. I think Bioware needs to refine more unique quest elements that they already put in each game instead of doing away with it the next especially if it worked. Besides the timed quest aspect playing our character at a ball was a nice refreshing game element and if Tevinter is similar to Orlais there should maybe be a stipulation where our fame or influence in a certain city will earn us a invitation to certain balls. Mind you every city and town does not need to have a ball but maybe 2 or 3 big cities have meet and greets similar where we gather intel and talk to important npcs to gain influence.
Another quest aspect I forgot to add even though its more of a main quest element its something that was dumbed down as the games went on and thats the big War fill or final assault. At somepoint in one of these games I am assuming DA4 but we know the Qunari Invasion will occur leading to a full scale war with Tevinter. For all the wars and big events they put in each game we never really get that feel inside the game outside of the Blight. But this certain quest im talking about is the Final Big Battle. Fort Drakon and the Last Straw all did a pretty good job with it while Arbor Wilds it was more of a side element to the big reveal in the temple.
If this Invasion is going to occur this game or whenever they have to capture that aspect of war right and kind of refine what they did in Origins final battle. Parts I would like refined is that brief period where we only play as our character but the full party is fighting that was one of the coolest moments to me running around the battle field seeing my companions who I built fighting on there own working together. Maybe we can actually include tactics with that like Mass Effect suicide mission, setting companions to different jobs and stations on the battlefield. Now what each game has done is having our allies we gained joined into the fight it was more surprising in DA2 to see Nathan or Zev appear on the battlefield which was a nice touch.
Also Unique Specialization Quest. Unlocking Specialization via quest or unique means needs to stay. Want to be a assassin we not going to craft a blade and be a Assassin we are going to have to kill a target in a Assassin type way. Want to be a Champion go through a tournament style quest. Want to be a Necromancer go fight and collect the essence of Spirits and Demons. If you going to make us work for it then lets work for it i a way that pertains to each class and specialization.
Quality over exactly the key here. Certain quest need to be a mainstay in the identity of he franchise some can be unique per game like closing rifts for DAI but some elements need to be built on for the franchise.
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 29, 2016 3:08:33 GMT
I would like to see them expand even further on companion quests. They have so much untapped potential there to tie the narrative to something that we are actually invested in as a player (friendship with our companions).
Rather than just send us out on a quest for a companion that takes place in one inn, in one area of the map. Let the companion quest drive the full exploration of the area. For example perhaps some evil mage has taken over an entire region of the map, and the companions mother/sister/brother/child/pet has been taken hostage by the mage. Then a huge section of the game is taken up with ridding the entire region of the influence of this person. There is much more emotional investment in the questing in general if it is tied to a person we have gotten to know, rather than a place.
The games have already achieved this in several instances, I realise that, but I think they should do it much, much more. In general BioWare really needs to relearn the lesson that there has to be a reason to do stuff, to be somewhere, to achieve something - this concept was completely disregarded in DAI. Doing the thing so its done is not a good enough reason to do anything. If that makes sense...
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 29, 2016 18:37:22 GMT
While we touched on some of these in the other thread, I find the "offbeat" quests are often among the most memorable of the game. In Trespasser for example... "Spa Day". Or "Judging Storvacker" in JoH. And were there more memorable Judgement quests than Chief Movran and "The Box"? And I think the most interesting thing about the Witcher's quests were those sudden left turns it would take. You would have a string of predictable quests, then-suddenly-I'm-exploring-other-worlds. A string of predictable quests, then suddenly I'm possessed, and attending a wedding, and... chasing pigs. Then suddenly I'm in a painting. Then suddenly I'm in a fairy tale land. Then suddenly I'm talking to my horse... and she's talking back... and is actually pretty interesting too. I wouldn't mind seeing BioWare indulging in more quests that veer into the unexpected.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 29, 2016 19:30:09 GMT
Origin Stories: A contentious one, no question, as resources you pour into these means it's resources you're not putting into content elsewhere in the game that all characters might enjoy. And most players only play the game once.
That said, they were the hook that got me invested in the DA series in the first place. Each one introduced you to a new area of lore, each were very well done, and each gave you an opportunity for some quieter/investigative moments (along with action) to get your bearings, to get to know your family, before being thrown to the wolves. And, obviously, greatly increasing the game's replay value.
But at the same time, I understand why they like to start the game with a single entry point and you hitting the ground running (and in some Origins, you did), to put that immediate, emotional hook in you...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 29, 2016 21:42:54 GMT
Origin Stories: A contentious one, no question, as resources you pour into these means it's resources you're not putting into content elsewhere in the game that all characters might enjoy. And most players only play the game once. That said, they were the hook that got me invested in the DA series in the first place. Each one introduced you to a new area of lore, each were very well done, and each gave you an opportunity for some quieter/investigative moments (along with action) to get your bearings, to get to know your family, before being thrown to the wolves. And, obviously, greatly increasing the game's replay value. But at the same time, I understand why they like to start the game with a single entry point and you hitting the ground running (and in some Origins, you did), to put that immediate, emotional hook in you... I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 29, 2016 22:05:37 GMT
Origin Stories: A contentious one, no question, as resources you pour into these means it's resources you're not putting into content elsewhere in the game that all characters might enjoy. And most players only play the game once. That said, they were the hook that got me invested in the DA series in the first place. Each one introduced you to a new area of lore, each were very well done, and each gave you an opportunity for some quieter/investigative moments (along with action) to get your bearings, to get to know your family, before being thrown to the wolves. And, obviously, greatly increasing the game's replay value. But at the same time, I understand why they like to start the game with a single entry point and you hitting the ground running (and in some Origins, you did), to put that immediate, emotional hook in you... I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well. It's an interesting idea... Typically though, you expect DLC to be something you can play with your existing character. Though, perhaps if it was told in the context of a "flashback", might be an interesting twist (like Leliana's Song). Maybe an end-of-game fireside tale told to your companions, complete with cutting back and forth between the two timelines...? Or alternatively, one that could work either way (pre or post game), your choice.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 30, 2016 2:47:22 GMT
I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well. It's an interesting idea... Typically though, you expect DLC to be something you can play with your existing character. Though, perhaps if it was told in the context of a "flashback", might be an interesting twist (like Leliana's Song). Maybe an end-of-game fireside tale told to your companions, complete with cutting back and forth between the two timelines...? Or alternatively, one that could work either way (pre or post game), your choice. Right, I was thinking flashback for existing characters, prologue for new characters. Elaborating on the crazy idea, the DLC could be released in episodes with all of the Episode 1 DLCs being "free" (bundled with the main game). That way, you can sample before you buy. As long as they are clearly marked as completely optional and the gameplay was true to that (no decisions spilling over, no gear acting as pay-to-win), maybe the market wouldn't go into too much of a rage mode? Dev cost could be justified to the bean counters by including the combat tutorial section in the free episodes. Although that would require binding some origins to specific classes I guess.
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 31, 2016 0:50:52 GMT
I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well. It's an interesting idea... Typically though, you expect DLC to be something you can play with your existing character. Though, perhaps if it was told in the context of a "flashback", might be an interesting twist (like Leliana's Song). Maybe an end-of-game fireside tale told to your companions, complete with cutting back and forth between the two timelines...? This is a great idea! Do this immediately Bioware!
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Post by colfoley on Dec 31, 2016 1:12:31 GMT
Are we talking origin stories for the PC or for the companions?
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 31, 2016 1:58:41 GMT
Are we talking origin stories for the PC or for the companions? In this case, for the PC.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 31, 2016 4:59:40 GMT
I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well. My concern is that releasing origin style content as DLC will kill off any other DLC and I could see the quality dropping over the lifespan as less people buy the DLC. The other problem I have is that it would then feel exactly like Dragon Age: Origins and I hated how the Origin story had no context to the rest of the game and generally just burned through it with alts. Looking at it from a business perspective I could also see it having low sales if BioWare takes the route of having multiple races as people only buy the ones that interest them or for the characters they have already played instead of all of them which becomes problematic and the older a game gets the less people are buying DLC already.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 31, 2016 5:39:27 GMT
I had a random thought. What you would think of making origin stories after-the-fact DLCs? Paid, full-price DLCs, which means there would be some meaty adventures and quests in the DLC as well. My concern is that releasing origin style content as DLC will kill off any other DLC and I could see the quality dropping over the lifespan as less people buy the DLC. The other problem I have is that it would then feel exactly like Dragon Age: Origins and I hated how the Origin story had no context to the rest of the game and generally just burned through it with alts. Looking at it from a business perspective I could also see it having low sales if BioWare takes the route of having multiple races as people only buy the ones that interest them or for the characters they have already played instead of all of them which becomes problematic and the older a game gets the less people are buying DLC already. I may not be understanding...why would this idea kill off any other DLC? I'm not sure how long collectively all the origin stories are in DAO, but I would imagine that combined, they amount to less time and content than a full DLC such as Legacy or Trespasser. They could release all the origin stories together in one DLC, and people could choose to use them within the context of the main game, or just play all the origins as self-contained mini campaigns.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 31, 2016 6:28:36 GMT
My concern is that releasing origin style content as DLC will kill off any other DLC and I could see the quality dropping over the lifespan as less people buy the DLC. The other problem I have is that it would then feel exactly like Dragon Age: Origins and I hated how the Origin story had no context to the rest of the game and generally just burned through it with alts. Looking at it from a business perspective I could also see it having low sales if BioWare takes the route of having multiple races as people only buy the ones that interest them or for the characters they have already played instead of all of them which becomes problematic and the older a game gets the less people are buying DLC already. I may not be understanding...why would this idea kill off any other DLC? I'm not sure how long collectively all the origin stories are in DAO, but I would imagine that combined, they amount to less time and content than a full DLC such as Legacy or Trespasser. They could release all the origin stories together in one DLC, and people could choose to use them within the context of the main game, or just play all the origins as self-contained mini campaigns. "Kill off" was probably too strong an expression, I just mean instead it would be created over other DLC and possibly if sales are too low they might only release two or three DLC like Inquisition. It really depends on what they do if they make it into on DLC or multiple. I couldn't imagine Origins similar to Dragon Age: Origins would be all crammed into one DLC for that is about the same amount of content as a large expansion unless people would be willing to pay even more then a normal DLC if the production costs warrant it.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 31, 2016 7:03:17 GMT
-Tournament Quest. Something both DA2 and DAI missed out on. Origins took advantage of the Proving very well and showed how important it was to Dwarven culture. While DA2 and Inquisition didnt exactly have a chance to do a Proving because they never went there but I see no reason the Champion or the Herald was not invited into the Grand Tourney. That is like the biggest event in the Free Marches and we have yet to precipitate it just became apart of Blackwall background story. But I did hope that DAI would release a DLC with the Inquisition invited to the Tourney I mean a new major power why wouldnt the Inquisitor be invited. It didnt have to be a serious DLC or quest and possible could have included us fighting companions like Blackwall and Iron Bull or Sera. I hope DA4 takes advantage of the Huge Proving Arena in Tevinter great chance for Solo fun. Reminds me of the combat simulator that was added to ME3 with the Citadel DLC. Welcome to the Armax Arsenal Arena!I think it would definitely be a cool idea to add since you could have the standard gladiator-style battles that DA:O had, as well as sparring with your own companions, along with more in-depth quests involving the arena (at least partially), and it would serve as a "training area" to test your abilities, like a shooting range. Maybe they could even come up with a strange excuse to have "mirrors" to fight (like the Shepard VI mirrors for each class), like spirits who match your character's appearance and, in gameplay, share the same abilities and equipment you have active. Also, you reminded of something that irks me about DA:I. When you talk to Blackwall about the Grand Tourney, you have no option as a Trevelyan to say you actually know what it is. Very strange since it would be pretty much impossible not to know of in that case, and they made race-specific dialogue options for other conversations. Alternatively, it would have probably been better to just have the same array of "I don't know what that is", "I know what that is!", and "I've watched it! for everyone. It's not inconceivable that Trevelyan, Adaar the mercenary, or a fighter in a Dalish clan native to the Free Marches could have. A Carta thug is a bit more odd, but it could work. "I actually participated in it" Could be an option for Trevelyan and possibly the others, especially Adaar.
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 31, 2016 12:05:54 GMT
I kind of like the discussion in the thread and I definitely think they could have done more soloruns. For instance in IYHSB we should have had to work harder to get to the camp. CotJ gives us a solo-run that at least the first time was harder. Monster hunting seems a bit too much Witchery. They gave us new and interesting options with the Judgements. Inquisition is known for its side quest basically being unchained fetch quest that left little to be desired while Origins probably had the most variety in actual Quest types. Its easy to forget sometimes because there was so many quest in Origins that certain quest chains were complete different from Mage Collective to Chantry to Slim crime wave to Crows. This however, I just don't understand. First there is a lot more to side-questing in DAI than fetching. Second: Chanters board, Mages collective? We must have different versions of DAO. Some of Slims quests are fun but most are simple and very fetchy. Trial of the Crows are go there kill someone come back and fetch a thing in a box. Personally I find a questline like "the missing soldiers - the Fallow Mire - Hand of Korth - Movran the Under" more interesting, fun and interesting.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 31, 2016 13:30:26 GMT
This however, I just don't understand. First there is a lot more to side-questing in DAI than fetching. Second: Chanters board, Mages collective? We must have different versions of DAO. Some of Slims quests are fun but most are simple and very fetchy. Trial of the Crows are go there kill someone come back and fetch a thing in a box. Personally I find a questline like "the missing soldiers - the Fallow Mire - Hand of Korth - Movran the Under" more interesting, fun and interesting. I agree I found the quest functionality to be pretty close between Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age: Inquisition.. What I think what Inquisition the most when it comes to quests was the decision to make it so the game could be completed in 30 hours or 100 hours so a lot of the secondary quests became unrelated to the critical story path unlike with Origins where the side quests tied more directly to the critical path even just in theme.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 31, 2016 19:57:51 GMT
I may not be understanding...why would this idea kill off any other DLC? I'm not sure how long collectively all the origin stories are in DAO, but I would imagine that combined, they amount to less time and content than a full DLC such as Legacy or Trespasser. They could release all the origin stories together in one DLC, and people could choose to use them within the context of the main game, or just play all the origins as self-contained mini campaigns. "Kill off" was probably too strong an expression, I just mean instead it would be created over other DLC and possibly if sales are too low they might only release two or three DLC like Inquisition. It really depends on what they do if they make it into on DLC or multiple. I couldn't imagine Origins similar to Dragon Age: Origins would be all crammed into one DLC for that is about the same amount of content as a large expansion unless people would be willing to pay even more then a normal DLC if the production costs warrant it. All good points. I have to agree that DLC development would be zero sum -- spending limited budget on origin stories would take away from other options. I'm not sure what to think about lumping them altogether into a single DLC. That has some advantages for sure, but it also has some disadvantages, like taking longer to make and the, "Why do I have to pay so much when all I want is the female city elf mage origin?" sort of complaints.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 31, 2016 21:29:34 GMT
"Kill off" was probably too strong an expression, I just mean instead it would be created over other DLC and possibly if sales are too low they might only release two or three DLC like Inquisition. It really depends on what they do if they make it into on DLC or multiple. I couldn't imagine Origins similar to Dragon Age: Origins would be all crammed into one DLC for that is about the same amount of content as a large expansion unless people would be willing to pay even more then a normal DLC if the production costs warrant it. All good points. I have to agree that DLC development would be zero sum -- spending limited budget on origin stories would take away from other options. I'm not sure what to think about lumping them altogether into a single DLC. That has some advantages for sure, but it also has some disadvantages, like taking longer to make and the, "Why do I have to pay so much when all I want is the female city elf mage origin?" sort of complaints. I agree with the complaints, but I can see complaints with anything BioWare does anymore. Such as "milking players for more money" if they decide to go for DLC origins, "not caring about what fans want" if they don't include origins, or even "why didn't you make 'x' origin first, they are the most popular" if they go for the individual route. With probably many other type of complaints about whatever they decide to create in the primary game or DLC.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 1, 2017 0:12:33 GMT
I think perhaps the best or most cost effective origin story solution is to have them be part of the base game. Have origins take place in the same areas and even use some of the same plot elements, but have each origin dramatically alter the context of the setup.
The DA4 example I used awhile ago was to have a high and low path in a scenario leading to a Qunari assault on a Tevinter city. A human noble and dwarven ambassadoria have a scenario around preparing the defense of the city while a qunari slave or elven liberati character's story involves being pressed into service and perhaps trying to escape.
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Post by jadedragon on Jan 6, 2017 21:49:25 GMT
Origin Quest can work. Either the original way with small follow up through the story here and there. Or it can work like Mass effect and pop up in the middle but maybe as its own Quest Chain. They could perhaps draw elements from there MMO SWTOR game were each class has its own story but each planet has a shared faction story. Our Origin Story would be the class story and Planet story be the main quest only its importance would be in reverse where the shared Main story is of course the bulk of the game but our Origin Story can be used as a Secondary Quest Chain. It doesnt have to pull to many resources or attention away from the Main story but it would make actually playing a different race or class feel more unique and increase replay value. The effects of whats going on in the Main Story should effect our Origin story and when we go to our Origin Quest we are still shaping it with decision. Tevinter Mage Nobles depend alot on status and reputation our actions in the main world could effect it differently allowing us to actually for that moment step into that role of our Origin.
Lets say we are a dwarf ambassadoria or whatever there social status is called, our actions could effect dwarf Tevinter relations besides doing quest for a dwarven faction during the main quest we can start to see that effect on our life as a actually dwarf. If we are a city elf our actions could raise our family status thus going from slave to the next step in the social ladder. But this could bring problems Humans could kidnap family members send assassins. Overall a branching Origin story that steadily flows with the main story and fits right in would be a huge plus in my opinion.
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