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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 30, 2016 21:08:19 GMT
UPDATED: responding to feedback (thanks all!) in bold.I recently watched a great vid on the evolution of health and healing systems in games. It really highlighted what a mess DA's health systems have been in every installment, not just DAI. The TL;DR of the vid is that the health system in a game can, and should, influence gameplay. One example given is Doom, both classic and new. In classic, it was all about avoiding damage -- your health bar is basically a cushion for mistakes. No health regen, no healing spells. If you took damage, you had to go find a health pack. In new Doom, health is a reward you get for a Glory Kill, you are incentivized to get more aggressive and melee close to enemies. Polar opposites in terms of systems, but each with their own appeal. The upshot being, you should decide on your combat gameplay goals first, then design the healing system to support those goals. So what would some good combat gameplay goals be for DA4? How about: - Get rid of archaic D&D restrictions, like mages can't wear plate armor and must have less health. Level the playing field. Choice of spec should not penalize players through the health system. Health was never a good counter-balance for mages being OP, so find some other way to balance mage power.
- Encourage skillful gameplay and risk taking while still allowing for new players and casual players to enjoy the experience without undo frustration.
- Each class should have a combat area of expertise they shine in. Warriors should dominate physical combat through power (high damage, large area of effect, stagger and stun), rogues should dominate physical combat through finesse (high damage only under specific conditions -- like flanking, single target, sleep and paralyze), mages should dominate magical combat (a mix of warrior and rogue effects). The health system should support this.
- The health system should compensate for combat role, not spec. If a character wades into a mob of enemies to melee, the health system should give them more protection, whether they are a warrior, rogue or mage.
- Health should be a limit on how many mistakes you can accumulate before you have to return to your HQ (like Skyhold), to get better gear or more training.
- However, appropriate risk taking should also be rewarded and you should also have an allowance for making mistakes as you learn how best to defeat a type of enemy.
My rough, incompletely thought-out idea for DA4 to accomplish the above: - All specs start with the same max health, 100.
- Everyone gets a class-specific "risk allowance" bar. On mages it's barrier, for free, no spelling casting needed. On warriors it's guard, again for free. On thieves it's elusive or whatever, again for free. The risk allowance covers appropriate risk taking, like a warrior charging into a large mob, or a rogue exposing herself to a big counter-attack in order to detonate a combo, or a mage starting a long casting-time ritual to summon a meteor storm, all the while taking damage from enemies. It also covers mistakes while learning how to best deal with a type of enemy.
- The max of the risk bar should be at least the same as max health. It can be more based on buffs, spells, or other temporary effects.
- The risk bar does automatically regenerate, and the rate varies by combat conditions. If you are in the middle of a mob doing melee (high appropriate risk), it regens at maximum rate. If you are far away and fighting at range, it regens at the minimum rate (low risk).
- The risk bar can also be restored by executing moves skillfully. For example, if you perform a power move as a warrior that knocks-down all nearby enemies, or you do a finesse move as a rogue that pins the enemy to a spot for some duration.
- The risk bar also serves as a mistake allowance, before you have to pay for those mistakes with health.
- Travelling to a camp does not automatically heal you. It does regen your risk bar to max.
- Remove all forms of healing magic except for healing potions. No health regen potions or healing mist grenades.
- One healing potion restores your health bar to max.
- Make healing potions extremely expensive to craft. They require using a material or resource that is critical for making good gear -- the DAI equivalent would be something like you'd have to sacrifice your best Fade-Touched material to make one healing potion. This rewards skillful play through conserving resources to make better gear, while still giving new players or casual players a way to heal without returning to HQ (see below).
- No health regen during battle. Partial health regen outside of battle, total health regen when you return to HQ. Partial health regen is only up to the nearest 20% fraction. So say your max is 100, you take 33 points of damage down to 67, you'd only auto regen to 80, outside of combat.
- Having sub 100% health bar has some kind of performance penalty. Maybe certain combos become unavailable or certain maximum effort abilities only do partial damage proportional to your health, something like that. This effect is disabled for Casual mode.
- Long quests with no opportunity to return to HQ to heal can have rest stops or waystations or whatnot that take the place of returning to HQ.
If you win a battle but take wounds (your health bar is less than max), you have four choices: 1) live with the penalty a while, 2) take a healing potion, 3) change gear or respec to increase the maximum risk bar value, 4) return to HQ. There is a fifth option of reducing difficulty to Casual.What do you think?
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Post by Gilli on Dec 30, 2016 22:29:54 GMT
I recently watched a great vid on the evolution of health and healing systems in games. It really highlighted what a mess DA's health systems have been in every installment, not just DAI. The TL;DR of the vid is that the health system in a game can, and should, influence gameplay. One example given is Doom, both classic and new. In classic, it was all about avoiding damage -- your health bar is basically a cushion for mistakes. No health regen, no healing spells. If you took damage, you had to go find a health pack. In new Doom, health is a reward you get for a Glory Kill, you are incentivized to get more aggressive and melee close to enemies. Polar opposites in terms of systems, but each with their own appeal. The upshot being, you should decide on your combat gameplay goals first, then design the healing system to support those goals. So what would some good combat gameplay goals be for DA4? How about: - Get rid of archaic D&D restrictions, like mages can't wear plate armor and must have less health. Level the playing field. Choice of spec should not penalize players through the health system. Health was never a good counter-balance for mages being OP, so find some other way to balance mage power.
- Encourage skillful gameplay while still allowing for new players and casual players to enjoy the experience without undo frustration.
- Double-down on areas of expertise by class. Warriors should dominate physical combat through power, rogues should dominate physical combat through finesse, mages should dominate magical combat. The health system should support this.
- The health system should compensate for combat role, not spec. If a character wades into a mob of enemies to melee, the health system should give them more protection, whether they are a warrior, rogue or mage.
- Health should be a limit on how many mistakes you can accumulate before you have to return to your HQ (like Skyhold), to get better gear or more training.
My rough, incompletely thought-out idea for DA4 to accomplish the above: - All specs start with the same max health, 100.
- Everyone gets a class-specific "mistake forgiveness" bar. On mages it's barrier, for free, no spelling casting needed. On warriors it's guard, again for free. On thieves it's elusive or whatever, again for free.
- The max of the mistake bar should be at least the same as max health. It can be more based on buffs, spells, or other temporary effects.
- The mistake bar does automatically regenerate, and the rate varies by combat conditions. If you are in the middle of a mob doing melee, it regens at maximum rate. If you are far away and fighting at range, it regens at the minimum rate.
- The mistake bar can also be restored by executing moves skillfully. For example, if you perform a power move as a warrior that knocks-down all nearby enemies, or you do a finesse move as a rogue that pins the enemy to a spot for some duration.
- Travelling to a camp does not automatically heal you. It does regen your mistake bar to max.
- Remove all forms of healing magic except for healing potions. No health regen potions or healing mist grenades.
- Make healing potions extremely expensive to craft. They require using a material or resource that is critical for making good gear -- the DAI equivalent would be something like you'd have to sacrifice your best Fade-Touched material to make one healing potion. This rewards skillful play through conserving resources to make better gear, while still giving new players or casual players a way to heal without returning to HQ (see below).
- No health regen during battle. Partial health regen outside of battle, total health regen when you return to HQ. Partial health regen is only up to the nearest 20% fraction. So say your max is 100, you take 33 points of damage down to 67, you'd only auto regen to 80, outside of combat.
- Having sub 100% health bar has some kind of performance penalty. Maybe certain combos become unavailable or certain maximum effort abilities only do partial damage proportional to your health, something like that. This effect is disabled for Casual mode.
- Long quests with no opportunity to return to HQ to heal can have rest stops or waystations or whatnot that take the place of returning to HQ.
What do you think? I didn't want to write a novel, but okay - Agreed
- Yes please
- Sounds good, but how exactly do you mean this?
- Isn't that what health always has been for? The Limit of how many times you can get hit before you're dead?
- Sounds good
- Sounds also good, I hate "wasting" a skill point on barrier.
- Agreed
- Sounds good
- Sounds great, kinda like KE/AW with Fade Shield?
- .....but why else would I go to the camp, if not to heal myself? That's literally the only reason why I'd go to the camp in the first place.
- Does this include Revival, or are you talking only about "Heal/Heal All" type of spells? If it does not include Revival I'd be okay with it, if it does.....
- Please no, if I have to choose between crafting a healing potion and crafting gear, I'd go for the gear. I don't care if I have to go through fights at 1HP because of that, I'm not gonna waste mats on healing potions. (I think that was one reason why I stopped playing Grandia II, you couldn't craft stuff and stores only had a handful of healing potions and it was horrible)
- Doesn't sound that bad, why not.
- As someone who hates to use health potions if I'm not in the red, this sounds horrifying...
- That reminds me of Final Fantasy X, sure you could heal yourself with either magic, or potions, but if you're like me and don't like to waste potions outside of Boss battles, you'd always be low on mana, so the Save Points where the only place where you could heal up you HP and Mana. (I can't tell the times I had Lulu have to use normal attacks, cause she didn't have any mana points left. )
My additional ideas: - Add the Golden Nug again with "Rub Some Dirt On It", those who want to have a hard time healing themselves can use that.
- Do heal when go to the camp, but do not heal when fast traveling. If you go to heal at the camp, you lose a day (because you went to bed ) but if you fast travel, you didn't get any rest = no healing.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 31, 2016 3:28:16 GMT
Great video, and definitely some interesting discussion here... The main point, having a "mistakes bar", I definitely like. And in broad strokes, incentivizing particular styles of combat for each class. Knight Enchanters & Fade Shield (hell, most of the powers in the tree) incentivizing an in-your-face combat style example is a good one. A lot of the rest would depend largely on how they approach combat in DA4. I wish I knew (even in broad strokes) to have a better target for this discussion... - Something closer to current or more action-based (everyone has block/evade/potentially other action-based abilities)? - And if more action-based, can you avoid damage in combat altogether with an easy/skillful combination of blocks and evades? And then considering how these elements might mesh with Health & a potential Mistakes Bar in overall combat difficulty. - Is there damage that is unavoidable in the game? Eg. Dragon breath, AoE attacks, blood magic attacks, health-sapping environments, etc. - How about companion management? How good are they at blocking/evading (and generally keeping themselves alive) if left to their own devices and limited recovery options? - Blood magic classes (as we'll be in Tevinter)? Do you keep the theme of self-inflicted injury turned into power? Health recovery/stealing? Will think on this more...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 31, 2016 3:52:22 GMT
I recently watched a great vid on the evolution of health and healing systems in games. It really highlighted what a mess DA's health systems have been in every installment, not just DAI. The TL;DR of the vid is that the health system in a game can, and should, influence gameplay. One example given is Doom, both classic and new. In classic, it was all about avoiding damage -- your health bar is basically a cushion for mistakes. No health regen, no healing spells. If you took damage, you had to go find a health pack. In new Doom, health is a reward you get for a Glory Kill, you are incentivized to get more aggressive and melee close to enemies. Polar opposites in terms of systems, but each with their own appeal. The upshot being, you should decide on your combat gameplay goals first, then design the healing system to support those goals. So what would some good combat gameplay goals be for DA4? How about: - Get rid of archaic D&D restrictions, like mages can't wear plate armor and must have less health. Level the playing field. Choice of spec should not penalize players through the health system. Health was never a good counter-balance for mages being OP, so find some other way to balance mage power.
- Encourage skillful gameplay while still allowing for new players and casual players to enjoy the experience without undo frustration.
- Double-down on areas of expertise by class. Warriors should dominate physical combat through power, rogues should dominate physical combat through finesse, mages should dominate magical combat. The health system should support this.
- The health system should compensate for combat role, not spec. If a character wades into a mob of enemies to melee, the health system should give them more protection, whether they are a warrior, rogue or mage.
- Health should be a limit on how many mistakes you can accumulate before you have to return to your HQ (like Skyhold), to get better gear or more training.
I didn't want to write a novel, but okay
- Sounds good, but how exactly do you mean this?
What I meant by that is each class should be the best at some particular important role in combat. In DAI, rogues do more melee damage than warriors. Why? And at the same time, the health system penalizes rogues by making them more squishy. Again, why? Is it to balance out their awesomeness at melee? But why not just make them less good at melee, so that warriors have something to shine about? So let warriors own melee by using power abilities, like Mighty Blow and Whirlwind. Those ought to do more damage over a wider area. They should have knock-back and stun effects. No rogue ability should come close to that combination of damage, area of effect and stun. Likewise, rogues should be able to finesse single targets, like pinning them to a spot, knocking them out, or doing double damage with backstabs (with some kind of additional limitation, so they can't just spam that). The rogue specialty should only be possible when certain conditions are true, like the target is blinded or in darkness, already stunned or staggered, aggro focused on a warrior, etc. Then an only then do the double-damage bonuses apply. Which means the rogue has to pay attention to what the rest of the team is doing and attack targets of opportunity, instead of just spamming OP abilities and overshadowing the warriors and mages. Mages should be able to fight either at range or close up, but the effects are not as powerful like a warrior or surgically targeted like a rogue. They'd have to be in-between. Like knock-back of a single target (Stonefist), or shocking a group of targets into a stunned state, but not doing very much damage. Given all that, the health system should treat them all fairly and reward them for doing stuff in their area of expertise. They can have the same max health, but maybe the rogue's elusive is buffed under the conditions above, while the warriors is buffed if there are more than 2 enemies in range of his attacks. Things like that.
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Post by Gilli on Dec 31, 2016 4:27:10 GMT
I didn't want to write a novel, but okay
- Sounds good, but how exactly do you mean this?
What I meant by that is each class should be the best at some particular important role in combat. In DAI, rogues do more melee damage than warriors. Why? And at the same time, the health system penalizes rogues by making them more squishy. Again, why? Is it to balance out their awesomeness at melee? But why not just make them less good at melee, so that warriors have something to shine about? So let warriors own melee by using power abilities, like Mighty Blow and Whirlwind. Those ought to do more damage over a wider area. They should have knock-back and stun effects. No rogue ability should come close to that combination of damage, area of effect and stun. Likewise, rogues should be able to finesse single targets, like pinning them to a spot, knocking them out, or doing double damage with backstabs (with some kind of additional limitation, so they can't just spam that). The rogue specialty should only be possible when certain conditions are true, like the target is blinded or in darkness, already stunned or staggered, aggro focused on a warrior, etc. Then an only then do the double-damage bonuses apply. Which means the rogue has to pay attention to what the rest of the team is doing and attack targets of opportunity, instead of just spamming OP abilities and overshadowing the warriors and mages. Mages should be able to fight either at range or close up, but the effects are not as powerful like a warrior or surgically targeted like a rogue. They'd have to be in-between. Like knock-back of a single target (Stonefist), or shocking a group of targets into a stunned state, but not doing very much damage. Given all that, the health system should treat them all fairly and reward them for doing stuff in their area of expertise. They can have the same max health, but maybe the rogue's elusive is buffed under the conditions above, while the warriors is buffed if there are more than 2 enemies in range of his attacks. Things like that. Ah! Yes, sounds great. I really like that. Like how does it make sense, that it takes me ages to kill something as a S/S Warrior (on Hard) when it took me less then a moment as a DW Rogue (on Nightmare)? That's not right. And I'm talking without specs, Twin Fangs alone lets you kill stuff in one hit, while Shield Bash just pushes your enemy a little away (well, with damage, but def less then Twin Fangs did)
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Post by Wulfram on Dec 31, 2016 14:52:21 GMT
I would not support any system that would make me waste more time in loading screens.
I think its misguided to see getting hit in an RPG (at least of the more traditional, tactical type) as a mistake. Trading blows with the enemy is part of an RPG, because its the characters skill that matters. It shouldn't be the players job to block or dodge every blow - and if it becomes the players job in a 4 man party, then combat becomes a micromanagement hell.
I think DA2's system of healing was basically good, though I'd tweak the way you refresh your potions to be more transparent - maybe take DAI's system for that.
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 31, 2016 17:35:19 GMT
I have to sort of disagree on most parts. I prefer a game that allows for diverse playing styles. If you don't like regen potions, healing mist grenades then don't use them. The same goes for supply caches. There is always rub some dirt in it and travel lightly if you're weak of will ;-). Someone else might like them. I could go for reintroducing the spirit healer. I probably wouldn't play as one but others would.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 31, 2016 19:07:26 GMT
I would not support any system that would make me waste more time in loading screens. I don't follow. What from the OP would cause more loading screens? Returning to HQ? Maybe I didn't make it clear, but that isn't expected to happen often. It's not like you battle one random encounter and need to run home to HQ to heal up, then do another battle then run home again. When you are below 100% health, you have four choices: 1) live with the penalty a while, 2) take a healing potion, 3) gear/spec up for larger mistake bar buffs, 4) return to HQ. There's also a fifth choice, which is reduce difficulty to Casual. How's that for flexibility? And of course, there is also the over-arching benefit that if you git gud, you don't lose health in the first place. I agree? Again, I'm not sure whether you are trying to agree with what the OP says or disagree. There's nothing in my proposal that says you never take a hit.
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Post by Wulfram on Dec 31, 2016 19:25:57 GMT
I would not support any system that would make me waste more time in loading screens. I don't follow. What from the OP would cause more loading screens? Dying? That doesn't even cause loading screens now, unless you get a full party wipe -- and there I agree, that should be changed. In general, making mistakes shouldn't be penalized by creating boredom, that's just a bad game design. But the right fix isn't to remove the possibility of making mistakes, and more importantly, learning from them. It should simply not force a loading screen on you, or shorten the loading time to a second or two. I agree? Again, I'm not sure whether you are trying to agree with what the OP says or disagree. There's nothing in my proposal that says you never take a hit. You say that the player should have to return to HQ to fully heal. Going back to Skyhold to heal would be hell. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but you started out by linking to a video about action games where getting hit is a mistake, you call your "shield" mechanic a mistake bar, and most of your mechanics seem to be designed to punish the player for taking damage. If that's not the intent I don't really see what you're aiming for
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 31, 2016 19:33:38 GMT
You say that the player should have to return to HQ to fully heal. Going back to Skyhold to heal would be hell. My bad. I figured that out after I posted and edited my reply. Repeating here: Maybe I didn't make it clear, but that isn't expected to happen often. It's not like you battle one random encounter and need to run home to HQ to heal up, then do another battle then run home again. When you are below 100% health, you have four choices: 1) live with the penalty a while, 2) take a healing potion, 3) gear/spec up for larger mistake bar buffs, 4) return to HQ. There's also a fifth choice, which is reduce difficulty to Casual. How's that for flexibility? And of course, there is also the over-arching benefit that if you git gud, you don't lose health in the first place. I see. You have a good point, I think the "mistakes" language is causing confusion. In a way, it does cover mistakes, but that's only one thing it covers. It also covers risk, as in charging into a mob of enemies. It's the allowance for taking that risk, before you have to pay with health. I'll go back and fix the OP and change it to "risk bar", and list the things it covers, including mistakes, charging into a mob, exposing yourself ti a big hit in order to detonate a combo, things like that.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 31, 2016 22:15:50 GMT
More thanks to Wulfram for helping me rethink "mistakes." Maybe I'm going a bit too far with this, but it got me really thinking about what it means to make a "mistake" in combat play and why "risk taking" seems to be the other side of the same coin. As a result, I've come up with a model that I'm really happy with. I think it gives a new perspective on combat gameplay, but of course I could be smokin' crack. By all means, point out the flaws in my thinking. IT'S ALL ABOUT LEARNINGThe model is a two-dimensional array, Intentionality on one dimension, Informedness on the other. For the sake of simplicity, let's just consider a table of these four combinations:
| Unintentional | Intentional | Uninformed | Unintentional/Uninformed | Intentional/Uninformed | Informed | Unintentional/Informed | Intentional/Informed |
Each of the combinations presents a different learning opportunity, or when all the learning is done, the perfecting of mastery. Unintentional/UninformedThis is the typical noob mistake, pressing the wrong button when confronted by an enemy they've never seen before. Mastery: None Learning Opportunity: Operational -- meaning, learning how to play the game at all Intentional/UninformedThe player has now mastered the operational requirements of the game, but things are still new and first-time in terms of combat. This may happen when a player with reasonable mastery of the mechanics encounters a boss they've never seen before. The player has no knowledge of risk/reward trade-offs in this particular context. Mastery: Operational Learning Opportunity: Contextual risk/reward Unintentional/InformedThe player is human. The wrong button is pressed, even though the player may know the right one and knows the risk/reward trade-offs of the enemy. Mastery: partial of Operational, complete for Risk/Reward Learning Opportunity: Operational (e.g., perfecting through practice) Intentional/InformedThe player has attained mastery over both operational and contextual risk/reward trade-offs. Mastery: Operational, Risk/Reward Learning Opportunity: Perfecting and improving both
Now we can clarify the difference between a mistake and appropriate risk taking. The cool thing is that the exact same action could either be a mistake or appropriate risk taking, depending on the player's intentionality and informedness. Take the action of a warrior charging into a group of five heavily armed enemies. For a player who hadn't intended to do the charge action, or who did but didn't realize what the consequences of doing so would be and how to adjust for them, it's a mistake, or at least, a learning opportunity. For a player who both intended to do the charge and knows how to deal with the mob once they get there, for maximum effectiveness, it's appropriate risk taking. What does this mean for the second "bar"? It means that the bar may start out as a mistake bar, but as the player learns, it becomes a risk bar. Even though nothing has changed in terms of game mechanics! The only thing that has changed is the player's knowledge and intention.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 7:32:57 GMT
The current system just needs a little bit of tweaking IMO. As in, it's fine the way it is for the most part (Guard for warriors, barrier for mages, evasion for rogues). the only thing that bugs me out is how quickly you heal when drinking a health pot. nerf the healing amount, and nerf the movement speed while drinking and nerf the spammability of it, and you have a system similar to the DS' estus flask system which is perfectly fine. there are much bigger issues when it comes to combat imo.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 18, 2017 0:51:36 GMT
The same topic just came up on /r/dragonage. I floated my proposal. Got one taker, but everyone else pretty much hates it. It's even getting downvoted into negative territory, lol.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/5ojfmz/no_spoilers_what_changes_would_you_make_to_the/
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Post by eriador117 on Jan 18, 2017 13:16:21 GMT
Personally I'd love an special easy mode where you can't die since I'm playing for the story, not a challenge. In DAO I am on the Broken Circle quest and I am stuck in the Fade dying again and again and it is so frustrating. I can only ever seem to get as far as the Mages Asunder island and then I am dead. And then after about the 15th time I give up altogether.
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Post by mmoblitz on Jan 18, 2017 14:36:40 GMT
Eroador117, if your not opposed to mods, there is one that lets you pretty much skip that portion, but you still get all the rewards from it. The following link will take you to the mod Skip the FadeGood luck to you either way!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 14:41:34 GMT
Honestly, I like the simplest system, that either allows traditional healing as priest spells on demand, or the continuous shield and health restoration on all characters when there are no dedicated healers. Why make it more complicated and frustrating by making you worry about consumables or watch loadscreens to restore health? dodges and blocks are only good when you play a single character, not a party. Overall, I prefer reactive healing to proactive and predictive actions, because that implies knowing the mechanics of an encounter beforehand, or close observation of the attacker and that's just not that easy and fast in a game where you control a party.
Did Bio ever spoke on the subject of sticking to the Inquisition no traditional healer class formula?
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jan 18, 2017 15:14:52 GMT
As someone who sucks at combat, I prefer as many options for health regeneration as possible. Healing spells, potions, regeneration after combat, regeneration during combat, etc.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 18, 2017 16:01:49 GMT
Did Bio ever spoke on the subject of sticking to the Inquisition no traditional healer class formula? They spoke on this topic quite a few times during the run-up to DAI, but here's a couple I know of... Lukas Kristjanson: fextralife.com/forums/t156292/no-healing-spells-whatsoever/?start=540A lot of people are picturing trying to play DAO/2 with no heals. Of course that wouldn't work, those games weren't balanced for that. But how well were they balanced with heals, really? I'm not a numbers guy, but I like a good fight. And here's what made it make sense for me.
There's a very simple reason why this is a good decision, and it's also why the balance in DAO/2 was all over the map. It's in the question "How many health points does a player have?" Because we need to know this before we can design an encounter and know how balanced it is.
So, how many HP? Well, we'd hope it starts with "somewhere between the minimum for a mage and the max for a warrior, varied based on party makeup." Okay, good place to start. That's a real number. We can build encounters that do somewhere within that range of total damage + effects.
Now add in healing. How many HP does the player have? "Somewhere between the minimum for a mage and the max for a warrior, plus somewhere between the minimum and maximum number of healing spells/potions and between the min/max of their mana/potions."
Okay, how much HP is that exactly? Since potions restore mana, and potions also restored HP, the actual number of potential HP was somewhere between the minimum for a mage and the total amount of gold you had available to spend on potions. And the later in the game it was, the more the top reached astronomical numbers. And so the greatest power the player had in previous games was not any one of their abilities, it was the ability to make the number of HP impossible to estimate.
And to counter effectively infinite HP, "balance" meant we needed to hit the player with far more potential damage than their characters could withstand, and do it all but instantly. In effect, replacing HP damage (unknown limits) with death/resurrection (known limits). Or we had to stop them from chaining potions, meaning more enemies that put them to sleep or confused them, or otherwise made the player not able to take action. Alpha strikes and crowd control, neither of which were tactics that were fun to face again and again, because they "balanced" by removing actions, by removing control.
Now in Inquisition, by reducing healing, by actually defining HP to a range that can have real numbers in it, we can better balance encounters. And no, players can't rely on chaining potions. So what do they get instead?
Abilities/gear/choices that actually have an effect on the battle that is greater than infinite health on your belt. And because your greatest ability isn't chugging potions, we need less effects that shut you down. You spend more time in control of your characters making more varied decisions to have a greater effect on the flow of the battle. You have regen from spells and potions and gear. You have effects you can craft that grant health on enemy deaths. You have damage mitigation through abilities and buffs and crafting. Limiting health and balancing enemies accordingly makes more tactical choices viable while keeping the challenge.
Does this make it more difficult? On Nightmare, Well, you asked for a challenge, and you'll have one that you can overcome in many more viable ways than previously possible.
But what about Easy? Well, last weekend, on Easy/Casual, starting the game with a mage and me not saying a word, my seven year old played for two hours that included many battles, including rifts and beating the crap out of a low level Pride demon. No party wipes. I covered his ears once.
I think you'll be fine. Patrick Weekes:fextralife.com/forums/p3255511/health-and-healing-a-view-from-the-outside/As we have shown and announced more of the gameplay features in Inquisition, some of our fans have voiced concerns about one feature in particular: the removal of healing spells from the game. Luke Kristjanson gave an excellent explanation of our designers' reasons for making this change, but because folks are still concerned, I asked if it would be helpful to give my perspective as someone who is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a hardcore tactical expert. Someone who is, many people would say, DIFFERENTLY COMPETENT in his play style. Someone who heard the initial plan to remove healing magic and went, "What, no, I need that for my healths and stuff, why are you doing this?"
My (Lack of) Qualifications
I played Dragon Age: Origins on Normal and considered dropping it to Easy on several occasions. I played Dragon Age II on Normal and could not beat the High Dragon in Act 3 because Isabela, Merrill, Aveline, and Double-Daggers Hawke is possibly not an optimized combat build. I also ended up saying, "Wow, dude, no," to single combat with the Arishok and had Aveline tank him while I ran around stabbing people in the kidneys. In Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, the only way I beat Darth Malak was to pop stealth and drop a bunch of traps between me and him and then get him to run through them.
In Dragon Age: Inquisition, I tend to swashbuckle in real time without pausing except to use items. I only go into the Tactical Camera mode to closely manage fights after I've died at least twice, and even then, it's something that I turn on, make a few commands, and then turn off. I am by no means a tactical expert.
I've completed two playthroughs of Dragon Age: Inquisition on Normal, and I'm now working through a playthrough on Hard. Here were my concerns, and here is what I've found and how I've handled things.
Concern: I will be chugging health potions all the time!
Result: Nope. In what we call a "popcorn fight" (a small fight that is not meant to really threaten the party), I rarely have to use a potion at all. After a normal-level fight against wandering creatures (a single large enemy or a group of normal enemies around my level), I usually use one or two potions (total, not per person). During a particularly difficult plot-related fight (which will usually give me a chance to rest afterward), I might use one or two during the fight and then one or two after the fight, for a total of three or four.
Now, to be fair, I found initially that I WAS taking significant hits and drinking a lot of potions—in earlier areas, fortunately, where the game is forgiving about letting you heal up. Within a few hours, though, I had gotten to the relatively low level of potion use I described above. Here's how:
Barrier: If you have a mage in your party, and you SHOULD have a mage in your party, this single spell covers you a lot of the time. I've seen people say that it makes you immune to damage for a short time, which isn't really accurate. Instead, think of it as giving you an additional health bar that the enemy has to take out before they can actually damage your normal health. (For Mass Effect players, think of shields or biotic barriers; for d20 tabletop players, temporary hit points.) Barrier costs little mana and covers a reasonable area. Cast it at the start of the fight, and everyone on your front line has an additional health bar to soak damage.
Guard: Guard is similar to Barrier in its function: an additional health bar the enemy has to take down before they can damage your character's normal health. The key difference is that you gain guard from any of several different warrior abilities, not from a spell. You almost always only give guard to yourself, and you get less guard from each ability than you get from the Barrier spell, but there are several abilities that give you guard, and they stack.
Here's how most fights go for me:
Cast Barrier on the party (or at least on the frontline combatants) My party tank (currently Cassandra) uses one of her abilities that generate guard for her Yes, guard and barriers stack—enemies have to break Cassandra's barrier AND guard before they damage her health When Cassandra's barrier gets broken, have her use another ability, so that her guard goes up even further If enemies are still up and dangerous and everyone's barriers are dropping, I make a snap decision about whether I want to turtle up (have folks use defensive moves to withdraw) or power through (keep hitting, with the expectation that I'm using potions later)
The rhythm is definitely different from "use healing spells during the fight," but I personally like it. Rather than forcing a grind, it rewards planning, where "planning" can be as simple as "use the ability that gives everyone something like shields, and the other ability that gives your warrior something ELSE like shields that stacks with the first thing." And with tactics set for party members to use their abilities normally, "planning" on easy fights looks a lot like, "Have a mage with Barrier in the party, and he or she will slap that bad boy on you as soon as you see the enemy. Just let Cassandra do her thing. That lady is like DA:O Alistair. She just. Does not. Die."
Concern: At high levels, those abilities won't be enough.
Result: True! At higher levels, you start running into enemies who clobber your Barrier and smash through your guard. Fortunately, much like our sister studio PopCap giving you the Wall-nut around the same time as it starts hitting you with the zombies who have the traffic cones on their heads, Dragon Age: Inquisition gives you a number of additional tools to use as you become more experienced and more comfortable with the game.
So, at a certain point in the game, you will realize that you're getting knocked around in fights, and your healing IS coming up short. That's the game pushing you to develop some new strategies to improve your healing ability and decrease your damage taken. Fortunately, when that moment hits, you should already have some of the tools to develop those strategies in your inventory, assuming that you are kind of a pack rat like me and pick up every piece of elfroot you run across.
Here are some of the strategies I picked up while playing:
More Potions: If, like me, you are worried about running out of potions, you can use the Inquisition's influence to gain an upgrade to your potion supply. This is a choice on your part, and that choice may not be as easy as you think (prepare for me to say that a lot as we go down this list). The perks you gain from leveling up the Inquisition are good, and if you spend that point on more potions, that's one less point you have to spend on perks like rare weapon and armor schematics, getting bonus XP from every creature you kill, or gaining unique dialogue options you won't otherwise have access to. I passed up this perk on the first playthrough and took it on the second playthrough. If I played Normal again, I wouldn't bother taking it, because after two full playthroughs, I'm pretty good at Normal, but I definitely took it when I started playing on Hard.
Items: Using the crafting system, you can craft weapons and weapon upgrades that actually heal you for a small percentage of your health every time you kill an enemy. If you find the right rare masterwork crafting materials, you can even build armor that generates guard every time you hit an enemy. These are also choices on your part. The slot you use for a sword hilt that heals you for killing enemies is a slot you could have spent building up fire resistance or a chance to stagger enemies who hit you, and if you choose the masterwork crafting material that gives you guard, you're passing up the chance for your armor to do something else, and some of those something-elses are FANTASTIC. For me, though, gaining guard easily and automatically was an easy choice for my frontline folks.
Ability Improvements: If you rely heavily on Barrier, there are upgrades that improve its power, shorten its cooldown time, stun nearby enemies when your barrier drops, or even strengthen your barrier when you damage enemies. Warriors have similar options for reducing incoming damage and increasing their guard generation. Again, these are choices and options. Sinking that many points into improving your barriers means that you haven't as deeply developed your ability to throw lightning or fire as you might have otherwise. In my first playthrough, I relied more on items than Barrier, letting Solas focus more on crowd control. On my second playthrough, I had two mages in my main party. My mage Inquisitor focused on offense, while Dorian became our Barrier expert (and still packed a heck of a punch with his helpful Wall of Fire).
Resurgence: This is our healing spell for the game that doesn't have healing spells. Resurgence is a focus spell, which means you get it a bit later in the game, and it's not something you can expect to use in every fight. That said, it heals the party, revives fallen party members, and continues to heal them for several seconds. It's a great spell to turn the corner on a difficult fight, but like all these other options, it's a choice. Honestly, because I hit items and Barrier upgrades so heavily, I ended up not using Resurgence. Focus is a precious resource, and I liked using it for "And now I do a ton of damage" effects rather than for healing. That said, my play style does lean toward "overplan, overequip, and then swashbuckle", so your mileage may vary.
You will note that I said "choice" a lot up there. You have a wide variety of options for how to not die. As a guideline I am making up while sitting on my couch with less than ten seconds of thought, assume that if you are playing on Normal difficulty, you will be fine if you focus on two of these general options (Easy probably only needs one, Hard might need three, and Nightmare, man, I don't even know). Have you chosen a couple of talents that upgrade your guard and barriers and taken the perk to upgrade your potions? You're going to be fine. Don't want to spend that perk for more potions? Maybe consider crafting or buying a weapon that heals you when you kill stuff with it.
Do that, and you will still use potions here and there, but you don't need to worry about running out every five minutes.
Concern: I still only have a limited number of potions, though. What if I run out halfway through a big dungeon?
Result: You won't, unless you ignore every possible warning and deliberately try to do this to yourself.
Difficulty Telegraphing: First, our major missions give pointers about what level you might want to be before starting, so if you're level 12 and see something that says, "Intended for Level 16-19," well, that's probably not the best major mission to dive into right now. Even dungeons that don't formally tell you the difficulty beforehand are going to hit you with fights early that give you a sense of how hard it's going to be. If the first fight nearly kills the party and burns through half your potions, you'll want to come back in a few levels. Enemies that are much higher-level than you are have little skulls next to their names. I learned that one the hard way.
Restocking Options: Most large dungeons and missions give you the chance to replenish your potions before particularly difficult fights. If you're going through a dungeon and you see a potion-restock table sitting beside an imposing door covered with ancient runes, this is our friendly level designers saying, "We love you, players. Have some more potions. Also, maybe consider saving your game here."
As I said, I almost never ran out of potions. When I did, it was because I had tried to push through a dungeon that I knew early on I wasn't ready for yet, and even then, I was able to limp bloodily through the last fights. I never EVER hit a dungeon that was too hard for me to complete that did not give me the option to retreat... and the way that dungeons were set up, I have not once gotten halfway or more through a dungeon and then had to retreat to restock my potions. Either I realized right away that I was in over my head, or I powered through and finished.
Finally, even if I DID end up in a fight I could not retreat from with no potions left, I would have the option to lower the difficulty.
Concern: I will have to go back to camps in the wilderness all the time.
Result: Yes and no. Yes, because I do return to camps a lot. No, because returning to camp did not end up bothering me. The camp system is a tool, not a punishment.
Camps are good for all kinds of reasons. You return to full health, and your healing potions instantly restock, yes, but the biggest benefit I've found to claiming camps is that they serve as fast-travel points for our large wilderness areas. I quickly learned that when I entered a new wilderness area, the first thing to do was look at where all the possible camp spots were on the map. Assuming that I was not trying to sneak through a level that was clearly meant for higher-level characters (which I MAY have done because I heard there was great loot to be had if you didn't get horribly mangled, and yes, I make terrible decisions sometimes), I ended up hitting wilderness areas the following way:
Mark the nearest camp on my map Fight my way to that camp, closing Fade rifts or handling quests only if they were mostly on my way Reach the new camp, claim it, and instantly heal and restock all my potions Wander out from the new camp site to tackle quests I found in the area, returning as needed As soon as I get the slightest bit bored, go find a new camp site or fast-travel back to an old one with some stuff I missed near it
Our level designers did a wonderful job of spacing the camps out so that there's a lot of content around each of them, but not making it too hard to fight your way from one to another. In some areas, I used them more for fast-travel than I did for healing. "Oh, I'm supposed to find an ancient ruin over to the southwest? Okay, there it is on my map, and the nearest camp is... great, a short jog away. Off we go!"
Concern: Even with that, I'm worried I won't be able to play the game.
Result: Totally fair. Removing easy mid-fight healing in DA:I does change the dynamic of combat a bit, in much the same way that Mass Effect 3's "shields and barriers regenerate fully, health only fills up to the next line segment unless you use medi-gel" system changed the dynamic from Mass Effect 2's "I can get almost killed and will be back at full health a few seconds later." On Mass Effect, the combat folks wanted to encourage a little more planning and a little less "just wing it, you'll be fine in a second anyway" because making fights challenging when you can easily return to full health an unlimited number of times is brutally hard and results in a lot of un-fun "This enemy one-shots anyone it hits, haha, where is your healing now?!" I was initially worried about Shepard's health not fully regenerating in ME3, but the result was combat that was a lot fairer and a lot more fun.
The Dragon Age combat folks have the same goal of changing the dynamic of combat to reward planning and create fights that are challenging without being automatic death sentences for anyone who doesn't have just the right build. They didn't do this casually, and they didn't just strip out the healing spells and changing nothing else. They added guard, Barrier, and other items and abilities to encourage and reward pre-combat planning and mid-combat reaction.
I only vaguely understand how all these checks and balances work, because I mainly just write dirty jokes and song lyrics with occasional moments of pathos, but after two playthroughs and part of a third, I believe that they hit that goal admirably. When I come to a low-level area as a high-level character, I rarely if ever need to break out the healing potions. When I'm in an area meant for people around my level, I enjoy exploring the area, and I have never felt tied to the camps for my potions.
Counter-Concern: So you're saying it's super-easy, then?
Result: Hahahaha, no. Well, okay, it depends on what difficulty you're using. As Luke said, his seven-year-old son beat the prologue on Easy, so yes, if you're on Easy, I think you OUGHT to be all right. Most players will have a good time on Normal, hitting that sweet spot where they are pushed to improve their strategy without being frustrated by the punishment the game dishes out. I still feel happily challenged by Hard difficulty, though, and for Nightmare, you will want someone more like Sylvia "Man, I wish there were more dragons in the world, you see, I killed all of them already" Feketekuty.
I presented all of the things I've picked up above as though it is magical information transmitted into my brain and executed with no challenges at all. I have, even on Normal, seen the You Died screen more than a few times. Sometimes, it was because I thought I could sneak into an area that was out of my weight class. Sometimes, it was because I was trying to hurry and didn't do the upgrades that I normally rely upon to clobber enemies without having to manage my tactics carefully. And sometimes, it was the game trying to teach me that wow, I need to learn how to mitigate damage from ranged attackers and, until I did, any fight with archers was going to be brutally punishing. So I died, and then I learned, and then I took revenge (and then I took their banners and used them to decorate my throne room).
For those of you who were concerned about the changes to how health and healing work, I hope this was reassuring.
Thanks to Cameron Harris for making sure that my words made sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 19:03:28 GMT
So, are they going to stay the course, or go back to healing spells? These two are more like sales pitches for dai and that ship had sailed.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 18, 2017 19:18:50 GMT
So, are they going to stay the course, or go back to healing spells? They haven't even hinted one way or the other. That said, I highly doubt they will go back to the old way, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are further tweaks along with the changes to combat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 19:21:51 GMT
So, are they going to stay the course, or go back to healing spells? They haven't even hinted one way or the other. That said, I highly doubt they will go back to the old way, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are further tweaks along with the changes to combat. Thanks for the info! Well, hopefully it does not impact Andromeda and the new IP.
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Post by eriador117 on Jan 18, 2017 22:47:31 GMT
Eroador117, if your not opposed to mods, there is one that lets you pretty much skip that portion, but you still get all the rewards from it. The following link will take you to the mod Skip the FadeGood luck to you either way! Thanks, I've used that one on the PC but I am trying to finish it on Xbox with no mods I finally managed to get past that Fade part today - it took me hours though, replaying quite a bit and I was playing on easy/casual
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Post by eriador117 on Jan 18, 2017 22:49:15 GMT
As someone who sucks at combat, I prefer as many options for health regeneration as possible. Healing spells, potions, regeneration after combat, regeneration during combat, etc. A person after my own heart I am terrible at the combat.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 19, 2017 2:09:20 GMT
Honestly, I like the simplest system, that either allows traditional healing as priest spells on demand, or the continuous shield and health restoration on all characters when there are no dedicated healers. Why make it more complicated and frustrating by making you worry about consumables or watch loadscreens to restore health? dodges and blocks are only good when you play a single character, not a party. Overall, I prefer reactive healing to proactive and predictive actions, because that implies knowing the mechanics of an encounter beforehand, or close observation of the attacker and that's just not that easy and fast in a game where you control a party. I'd like to understand why. I've seen many comments in a similar vein, so there is a common thread and a desire in at least one segment of DA players to have the system conform to this, but I admit I don't get it. To me, a health system like that is essentially the same as saying that combat has no consequences. Which leads me to the question, why have combat at all? I'm not sure if the root of that is a desire for cinematic combat without player interaction, sort of like watching an action movie, or a desire to not be punished for bad combat play, like having to reload from a checkpoint and wait through a load screen. Maybe a bit of both. I want to understand, because I'm optimistic that the combat system can be tweaked to satisfy both audiences.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 4:55:31 GMT
Honestly, I like the simplest system, that either allows traditional healing as priest spells on demand, or the continuous shield and health restoration on all characters when there are no dedicated healers. Why make it more complicated and frustrating by making you worry about consumables or watch loadscreens to restore health? dodges and blocks are only good when you play a single character, not a party. Overall, I prefer reactive healing to proactive and predictive actions, because that implies knowing the mechanics of an encounter beforehand, or close observation of the attacker and that's just not that easy and fast in a game where you control a party. I'd like to understand why. I've seen many comments in a similar vein, so there is a common thread and a desire in at least one segment of DA players to have the system conform to this, but I admit I don't get it. To me, a health system like that is essentially the same as saying that combat has no consequences. Which leads me to the question, why have combat at all? I'm not sure if the root of that is a desire for cinematic combat without player interaction, sort of like watching an action movie, or a desire to not be punished for bad combat play, like having to reload from a checkpoint and wait through a load screen. Maybe a bit of both. I want to understand, because I'm optimistic that the combat system can be tweaked to satisfy both audiences. Because it's slower and more boring than go-go-go combat when you can just play fast, cool combat animations and replenish the health pool as you go and feel awesome and clever. Shuffling through inventory, stacking up on potions, or having to watch fireplace animations loadscreens is extremely boring logistics. for the same reason I do not want to spend my precious gametime buying food, water and finding a safe place to urinate in peace for the sake of gritty realism. It's really disheartening if the game grades your performance and doles out fun in proportion to your gaming ability. Like any ability, in a normal distribution, the most people fall into an average category, and therefore make mistakes. Clever game will make you feel awesome when playing, vs nagging with the reminders that you suck, and should really play it at "casual" setting where everything topples over the moment you swing your sword. Do you really like spending time with someone who continuously brings up the smallest failures and mishaps, or would you rather be with someone who smoothest them over, forgets and moves on? Traditional healing or health regens mask mistakes and provides fun combat experience and does not rub your nose in them. And you spend more time having fun, less time staring at loadscreens. I'd rather the debs did not spend crunch time on fixing what ain't broken, and devising clever way to punish the players for not being within the top 10%
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