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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 4, 2017 22:15:43 GMT
Ok, three years after part 1 and the Deep Roads I can get, but honestly, after the end of Chapter 2 and the Qunari, I can't believe that the situation didn't go to hell much quicker than three years.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 4, 2017 22:28:10 GMT
Ok, three years after part 1 and the Deep Roads I can get, but honestly, after the end of Chapter 2 and the Qunari, I can't believe that the situation didn't go to hell much quicker than three years. What's the problem with it? This madness need time to flourish. Good work takes time.
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Post by phoray on Jan 4, 2017 23:04:03 GMT
They retconned it. It's officially 7 years for the whole game. So, I think those Tim jumps are shorter.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 4, 2017 23:24:34 GMT
Yeah, good 'ol Bioware math strikes again.
Instead of a 10 year story as advertised:
9:30-31 Blight/year as merc 9:32: Act 1 scrounging gold/Deep Roads expedition 3 yr time skip - Hawke does nothing 9:36 Act 2 booting the qunari 3 yr time skip - Hawke does nothing 9:40 Act 3 Chantry explosion
We get a 7 year story to fit the DAI timeline:
9:30-31 Blight/year as merc 9:32: Act 1 scrounging gold/Deep Roads expedition 1-1/2 yr time skip - Hawke does less nothing 9:35 Act 2 1-1/2 yr time skip - Hawke does less nothing 9:37 Chantry explosion [Asunder and Masked Empire happen at some point here] 9:40-42 Conclave/Breach/Cory defeated 9:44 Trespasser
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Post by Sifr on Jan 4, 2017 23:33:12 GMT
What retcon? There was a ten year story taking place during DA2.
9:30 - The Blight 9:31 - Deep Roads Expedition 9:34 - Qunari attack Kirkwall 9:37 - Chantry Explosion 9:40 - Cassandra interrogates Varric.
The events we play through take place over 7 years, but there's an additional 3 years between the final act and the framing device with Varric.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 4, 2017 23:36:24 GMT
Except the game tells you in multiple places (most clearly in the achievements) that each act is 1 yr in itself. If there are 3 yrs in between each Act yr, the Chantry explosion would happen in 9:40, not 9:37.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 5, 2017 0:33:49 GMT
Except the game tells you in multiple places (most clearly in the achievements) that each act is 1 yr in itself. If there are 3 yrs in between each Act yr, the Chantry explosion would happen in 9:40, not 9:37. Except that each Chapter is clearly labelled as Year One, Year Four and Year Seven, which should make the true timeline obvious? Rather than a figurative "year" of precisely 12 months, it's merely the year in which those events took place. So for instance, the period of Year Four took place solely during the year of 9:34, rather than events bleeding over into 9:35 and the time-skip starting there. The Achievements use of "A Year" and "Full Year" in their description, can be read likewise as only referring to completion of the full Chapter (Year Whatever) in which they were set. It's a bit of hyperbole, no different than perhaps saying in December that you've gone "all year" without a cigarette, despite only quitting smoking in March. Not that I'm disagreeing with the notion that Varric wasn't occasionally conflating the timeline to suit his narrative better. It would be easier to lump the major events together into a single year, so he didn't have to get bogged down in recounting the details of years where nothing much happened to Cassandra. If the only important thing in 9:36 was "that time Hawke went into a cave and found..." it would be easier to move it into a later part of the story.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 5, 2017 1:26:42 GMT
Act 1 isn't Year One though....it's Year Two. Year One is spent as a merc/smuggler offscreen.
I have to wonder why it took Cass 3 years to talk to Varric (according to the "official" timeline) about what happened when we can see Seekers have set up camp in the old qunari compound in Act 3. What the hell were they doing there if not investigating anything? Making it worse?
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Post by Sifr on Jan 5, 2017 2:21:48 GMT
Varric only met Hawke in 9:31, which is why he refers to it as being Year One.
DA2 is us viewing Varric's account of his adventures with Hawke, so it makes sense why he'd start numbering the years from their initial meeting, rather than Hawke's actual arrival in the city which takes place in the Prologue.
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Post by jackrabbit on Jan 5, 2017 4:14:00 GMT
This is actually a good question. Let's look at Hawke's journey. He (for the sake of keeping this simple we'll use default Hawke) begins his journey as a refugee from Lothering during the Blight of the original DA. He reaches Kirkwall and then needs to secure enough money to keep his family financially stable. This is fine, if not exactly the hero's journey.
The finale of Act I consists of Hawke and company venturing into the deep roads. This is where one would expect the plot of the game to take off. Indeed, it sort of does. Varric's crazy brother becomes corrupted by a Lyrium artifact and we barely make it back to the surface with our lives.
ACT 2: This is where it becomes obvious that this game was a patchwork of different plots stitched together. The evil artifact plot is dropped and the larger game world does not open up. We're still stuck in Kirkwall, in reused environments. We also run into the problem mentioned by the original poster: for arbitrary reasons, between each act a few (two?) years pass and our main character must reconnect with his past party. Now, the main problem with this is that Hawke has no motivation for his actions beyond Act I. The hero's journey is NOT making cash for his family and then randomly going on adventures every few years or so for no real reason. However, the chaotic mess that constitutes DA2's story insists that this is so.
Hawke gets the band back together. Why? Who knows? He no longer needs money. Does he do it for the thrill of adventure? Boredom? Seems a foolish and risky way to spend his time. Every couple of years he decides to start adventuring again and reconnect with his estranged friends. What was he doing in the interim? Apparently he wasn't adventuring. He just picks up the sword every so often because the plot demands it.
Act 2 is stupid except for the brilliant bit that capitalizes on Varric as the narrator to give us an exaggerated action-hero bit with Varric. It otherwise ignores the deep roads stuff and switches gears into the Qunari plot. DA2 version 2, apparently. Oh, and don't forget that cringeworthy nonsense with his mother becoming a Frankenstein monster.
Act 3 switches gears again- now it's the Templar/mage conflict. The overarching plot of this game is a mess- no one could decide on the thread of it. Anyway, Hawke again randomly decides to start adventuring and saves the day. Okay. The hero's journey is not: Hero needs to get rich. Gets rich. Has no motivation. Does more stuff because.
This game is a mess.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 5, 2017 5:32:50 GMT
This is actually a good question. Let's look at Hawke's journey. He (for the sake of keeping this simple we'll use default Hawke) begins his journey as a refugee from Lothering during the Blight of the original DA. He reaches Kirkwall and then needs to secure enough money to keep his family financially stable. This is fine, if not exactly the hero's journey. The finale of Act I consists of Hawke and company venturing into the deep roads. This is where one would expect the plot of the game to take off. Indeed, it sort of does. Varric's crazy brother becomes corrupted by a Lyrium artifact and we barely make it back to the surface with our lives. ACT 2: This is where it becomes obvious that this game was a patchwork of different plots stitched together. The evil artifact plot is dropped and the larger game world does not open up. We're still stuck in Kirkwall, in reused environments. We also run into the problem mentioned by the original poster: for arbitrary reasons, between each act a few (two?) years pass and our main character must reconnect with his past party. Now, the main problem with this is that Hawke has no motivation for his actions beyond Act I. The hero's journey is NOT making cash for his family and then randomly going on adventures every few years or so for no real reason. However, the chaotic mess that constitutes DA2's story insists that this is so. Hawke gets the band back together. Why? Who knows? He no longer needs money. Does he do it for the thrill of adventure? Boredom? Seems a foolish and risky way to spend his time. Every couple of years he decides to start adventuring again and reconnect with his estranged friends. What was he doing in the interim? Apparently he wasn't adventuring. He just picks up the sword every so often because the plot demands it. Act 2 is stupid except for the brilliant bit that capitalizes on Varric as the narrator to give us an exaggerated action-hero bit with Varric. It otherwise ignores the deep roads stuff and switches gears into the Qunari plot. DA2 version 2, apparently. Oh, and don't forget that cringeworthy nonsense with his mother becoming a Frankenstein monster. Act 3 switches gears again- now it's the Templar/mage conflict. The overarching plot of this game is a mess- no one could decide on the thread of it. Anyway, Hawke again randomly decides to start adventuring and saves the day. Okay. The hero's journey is not: Hero needs to get rich. Gets rich. Has no motivation. Does more stuff because. This game is a mess. Haha! So. This is not exactly true. They all live in Kirkwall, and over the years, these people have become friends (or some kind similar/different), and they spend times together in the Hanged Man for example, and this passed years seems similar as the adventure times more or less. As I imagine. Hawke don't need money anymore (this also not exactly true, who don't need money anymore?), but the boredom is a good reason, I think... and s/he wants help... always Mess or not, my favorite DA game. Who needs a world-saving hero, when we have Hawke?
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Post by fenris on Jan 5, 2017 6:06:04 GMT
This is actually a good question. Let's look at Hawke's journey. He (for the sake of keeping this simple we'll use default Hawke) begins his journey as a refugee from Lothering during the Blight of the original DA. He reaches Kirkwall and then needs to secure enough money to keep his family financially stable. This is fine, if not exactly the hero's journey. The finale of Act I consists of Hawke and company venturing into the deep roads. This is where one would expect the plot of the game to take off. Indeed, it sort of does. Varric's crazy brother becomes corrupted by a Lyrium artifact and we barely make it back to the surface with our lives. ACT 2: This is where it becomes obvious that this game was a patchwork of different plots stitched together. The evil artifact plot is dropped and the larger game world does not open up. We're still stuck in Kirkwall, in reused environments. We also run into the problem mentioned by the original poster: for arbitrary reasons, between each act a few (two?) years pass and our main character must reconnect with his past party. Now, the main problem with this is that Hawke has no motivation for his actions beyond Act I. The hero's journey is NOT making cash for his family and then randomly going on adventures every few years or so for no real reason. However, the chaotic mess that constitutes DA2's story insists that this is so. Hawke gets the band back together. Why? Who knows? He no longer needs money. Does he do it for the thrill of adventure? Boredom? Seems a foolish and risky way to spend his time. Every couple of years he decides to start adventuring again and reconnect with his estranged friends. What was he doing in the interim? Apparently he wasn't adventuring. He just picks up the sword every so often because the plot demands it. Act 2 is stupid except for the brilliant bit that capitalizes on Varric as the narrator to give us an exaggerated action-hero bit with Varric. It otherwise ignores the deep roads stuff and switches gears into the Qunari plot. DA2 version 2, apparently. Oh, and don't forget that cringeworthy nonsense with his mother becoming a Frankenstein monster. Act 3 switches gears again- now it's the Templar/mage conflict. The overarching plot of this game is a mess- no one could decide on the thread of it. Anyway, Hawke again randomly decides to start adventuring and saves the day. Okay. The hero's journey is not: Hero needs to get rich. Gets rich. Has no motivation. Does more stuff because. This game is a mess. What? It was my understanding that Hawke was still in touch with everyone during those years between acts. I imagine they even went on some adventures together. I think the idea of the acts is to show the time where a lot of things happened together. In act 2 we understand that, unlike DA:O, this game has a different plot for each act (which I thought was brilliant). I think this game isn't about a hero that does things because he wants to, as much as because he's thrown into all kinds of stuff. Except for the main plot, you can pretty much choose if you "want" to do something or not.
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Post by jackrabbit on Jan 5, 2017 6:14:01 GMT
Okay, guys... Fine, Hawke kept in touch with his friends during the interim acts. This doesn't change the fact that the game has a three act structure with different plots for each act. You're seriously going to tell me that this makes sense: 1. Go into deep roads and find evil artifact. 2. Stop Qunari invasion. 3. Resolve mage/Templar conflict. These are three separate main plot lines with little to no connection between them. Look, there's stuff I like in DA2 but the main plot reads like three separate game plots that were cobbled together for one game.
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Post by fenris on Jan 5, 2017 6:22:06 GMT
Okay, guys... Fine, Hawke kept in touch with his friends during the interim acts. This doesn't change the fact that the game has a three act structure with different plots for each act. You're seriously going to tell me that this makes sense: 1. Go into deep roads and find evil artifact. 2. Stop Qunari invasion. 3. Resolve mage/Templar conflict. These are three separate main plot lines with little to no connection between them. Look, there's stuff I like in DA2 but the main plot reads like three separate game plots that were cobbled together for one game. I do think it makes sense, and I even like it a lot. Act 1 - personal story, earning fortune for family. At the end, you find an evil artifact that will later show up for Varric's personal mission. At the same time, you keep seeing templars and mages at each others' throats, and see the creeping of blood magic and the templars' reactions to it. Act 2 - Local Story, you help the guard against the Qunari. You keep seeing mages and templars clashing in the background. Act 3 - World story, with an event that will and does affect the whole world, with mages and templars finally getting things done, with blood magic on one side and the artifact you found at the end of act 1 affecting the other side. What doesn't make sense for you in this? If anything, it's not the artifact that seems out of place, but the Qunari, which were by far my favorite part of the game. I think, however, that the idea was to show a multitude of problems in Kirkwall which Hawke is drawn into. So yes, I liked it a lot. So much so that I'm not at all sure which game is my favorite in the series. I have all of them with all of their expansions and everything.
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Post by jackrabbit on Jan 5, 2017 6:31:26 GMT
Well, if you like the game I don't want to diminish your enjoyment of it. Agree to disagree. I certainly like DA:O and DA:I. I just feel DA:2 was a weak entry in the series in terms of plot. I see the main plot as rather rambling and the act breaks as disconnected from one another. I won't belabor the point any further.
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Post by fenris on Jan 5, 2017 10:50:02 GMT
Fair enough, though in all honesty that's how I felt about DA:I. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great game, but main plot-wise it was just a random series of events. There was no connection between any of them, and hardly any of them had any prologue throughout the game (which is not something I can say for DA2).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 5, 2017 14:59:01 GMT
Okay, guys... Fine, Hawke kept in touch with his friends during the interim acts. This doesn't change the fact that the game has a three act structure with different plots for each act. You're seriously going to tell me that this makes sense: 1. Go into deep roads and find evil artifact. 2. Stop Qunari invasion. 3. Resolve mage/Templar conflict. These are three separate main plot lines with little to no connection between them. Look, there's stuff I like in DA2 but the main plot reads like three separate game plots that were cobbled together for one game. This is just a story from a wo/man, who to do things what do no matter, but finally somehow matter, just not that way, what s/he wanted. "That's what happens when you try to change things; things change. You can't always control how." – Hawke in Inquisition. Act1: survive the blight and build a new life. Act2: help to the viscount for honor, and because the qunari is a threat. Act3: help to the mages or the templars, and/or just try to minimalize the damage of the city. Legacy: attempts to investigate a strange thing of the past, whereupon s/he accidentally help to free to an ancient darkspawn/magister/cultist, who will try to destroy Thedas. This is Hawke's story, whose life somehow intertwined with Kirkwall and finally the whole Thedas. Hawke is a local hero, who will be catalyst of the events, because of the circumstances. I think it's brilliant idea with some lame solution.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 5, 2017 20:15:10 GMT
ACT 2: This is where it becomes obvious that this game was a patchwork of different plots stitched together. The evil artifact plot is dropped and the larger game world does not open up. We're still stuck in Kirkwall, in reused environments. The reason we remain in Kirkwall is because the city itself is one of the main characters in the game, with the various problems that plague the city being as integral to the overall story of DA2 as Hawke and their companions. Rather than have a singular Big Bad that we have to defeat, the story of Hawke is how they deal with the various threats and conflicts that arise due to chaotic elements within the city, which in some regards makes Kirkwall the overarching antagonist of the game. Hawke solving one problem in Kirkwall, only to then have to deal with the next one makes their story feel more grounded, especially given that the story takes place over the course of many years. It's no different than how despite the Warden ending the Blight by defeating the Archdemon, the Darkspawn still aren't gone or have ceased to be a threat... nor has Ferelden remained entirely conflict free, as we saw in Inquisition where the Hinterlands became the centre of a slug-match between Mage and Templars. It's all good to be the Warden and the Inquisitor who can roll into town, solve a problem, then leave... but what if you're the person in that town trying to keep things fixed after they're gone? That's essentially what Hawke's story was about and why they couldn't prevent the events at the Gallows from happening, because they were always one person trying to handle a situation was always far outside their control? Should we hate Batman or decry him as a failure for not being able to permanently end crime and catastrophic events happening in Gotham? Or do we root for him because he tries to do the right thing and help the people of his city, even if he's only one man trying to hold back the chaos? The same is true of Hawke. They may not always succeed, but that they'll continue to try even if it kills them, is what makes them a hero. Or as Varric puts it in Inquisition; "I like heroes who try their damnedest, even if they fail a lot. It's easy to be valiant when you always win and everything goes your way. There's nothing great in that."
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Post by fylimar on Jan 5, 2017 22:13:56 GMT
I agree with Sifr - Hawke lives in Kirkwall and made a name for herself in her first year there. The Vicount and the Knight Captain knew of and owe her, the Captain of the citywatch is her friend. It's only natural, that she will be involved in the events, that happen in the city. And she can't walk away after an event, because it's her home, she will go on helping, even if she fail in the end. I actually like that kind of storytelling far more, than the saving-the-world stories. It's more personal and direct.
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 6, 2017 1:55:03 GMT
I just more figured that the situation would have gone to hell much faster after all than say 3 years at a time. But still,I enjoyed the fact that this wasn't a "save the world" story.
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
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Post by melbella on Jan 6, 2017 2:36:30 GMT
OMG! Sifr ! Did you just call Batman a failure? j/k - it's a good analogy
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Post by phoray on Jan 6, 2017 3:40:06 GMT
Jackrabbits review made me writh in mental anguish but this was my driving day so could not reply.
Sifr and Co stood up for Hawke pretty darn well though.
DA2 - becoming my favorite of the Trilogy he more people hate on it. Lol
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Post by jackrabbit on Jan 7, 2017 20:06:38 GMT
My issue isn't that Hawke sticks around in Kirkwall. It's that I find the plots of each act disconnected from one another. I'd be fine with the story if it seemed like one coherent plot. It doesn't. It's more like three separate main plots with the only connecting factor being Hawke's involvement. So... Hawke is Kirkwall's Batman now? He/she is just the person that takes care of trouble in the city when it arises? Okay, fine. Tell me this, though. Would this be a good Batman movie?
Act 1: The joker attacks Gotham with joker toxin and Batman stops him! Act 2: Scarecrow kidnaps Robin and Batman stops him! Act 3: Mr. Freeze wages a war on Gotham and Batman stops him!
As three separate plots in a shared universe those are fine. If that were the structure of a single Batman movie it would be a mess. That's my point. DA 2 has no coherent, unifying plot. It's just: stuff happens in Kirkwall, Hawke steps in.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 20:26:32 GMT
My issue isn't that Hawke sticks around in Kirkwall. It's that I find the plots of each act disconnected from one another. I'd be fine with the story if it seemed like one coherent plot. It doesn't. It's more like three separate main plots with the only connecting factor being Hawke's involvement. So... Hawke is Kirkwall's Batman now? He/she is just the person that takes care of trouble in the city when it arises? Okay, fine. Tell me this, though. Would this be a good Batman movie? Act 1: The joker attacks Gotham with joker toxin and Batman stops him! Act 2: Scarecrow kidnaps Robin and Batman stops him! Act 3: Mr. Freeze wages a war on Gotham and Batman stops him! As three separate plots in a shared universe those are fine. If that were the structure of a single Batman movie it would be a mess. That's my point. DA 2 has no coherent, unifying plot. It's just: stuff happens in Kirkwall, Hawke steps in. Yes: the coherence is Hawke, the people (companions and NPC-s) and Kirkwall. This is an introduction for the Inquisition, and it connects the story of the blight with the Inquisition's story. The frame is Cassandra's investigation. Unfortunately shows, that it's unfinished, hasty action... Blame the EA!
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 7, 2017 21:01:20 GMT
I'm not sure I would like a story where Hawke deals with the exact same issue for 7 (or 10) years. If the entire game happened over the course of a year or 2 like the other 2 games, a plot all over the place would indeed be a mess. But DA2 takes place over a much longer time frame. It makes sense that different issues pop up and become more/less important as time goes by.
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