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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 6, 2017 2:12:47 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!"
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 2:32:47 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!" Yes, we can conclude, but Hawke not (Unless s/he's an alchemist, but this is not mentioned anywhere...) From these information. But s/he have signs (Anders even strangely behaving as usual, avoids Hawke's gaze) If Hawke don't accept the Elthina quest without question, he says, he lied about the separation and potion, and he finally will say: "easy to support freedom, until no one to died to achieve it". So: Hawke can be sure, that Anders not for the purpose going to the chantry, because he want to feed the kittens in the cellars. S/He don't know, what Anders planned, but s/he can know, that's will be bloody. "And boom, Justice and I will be free."
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Post by phoray on Jan 6, 2017 3:45:40 GMT
It totally went over my head. I never read the Anarchist Cookbook and I don't remember chemistry I class going over the specific combos that made bombs.
The amount of shock when it blew up had me ranting and pacing the household as I agonized whether I should execute him.
Morrigan and Solas also surprised me. But at least Morrigan was a pleasant surprise. Thank goodness, I got my happy ending with Alistair. Solas removed my death arm so I could retire o Babies with Cullen.
No happy ending with Anders though :/
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Post by shechinah on Jan 6, 2017 4:01:58 GMT
Hawke would likely not have the knowledge of chemistry required to understand what the ingredients could make when put together. From their backstory, I think Hawke lived most of their life in Lothering, which seemed to be basically a village of mostly farmers. You have to consider that Hawke's education was likely very limited and the best Hawke got in terms of it was from Leandra and Malcolm. I don't recall us having heard or seen anything about education for non-nobles. The chantry may have some forms of educational lessons for children but I think it would be limited in some areas and unlikely that children could be spared the time since they could be a necessary workforce such as on farms.
Also, I was a little confused by how Anders knew this recipe until I remembered a certain explosion-loving dwarf by the name of Dworkin Glavonak from Awakening. I'd consider it to be plausible that Anders learned of bomb-making from him although the magical touch to it was probably his own.
To put the first portion of my post differently: consider where you remember learning about this from and then consider whether that way of obtaining knowledge would be avaliable to Hawke. Was it in school? Was it in a book? Was it through television? Was it on the internet? A lot of knowledge that is avaliable to us from when we are children are unlikely to be avaliable to a lot of people in Thedas.
In regards to my own knowledge, I think I remember being suspecious just by Ander's plan and his behavior just added to it but I know I remember that what tipped me off to what exactly he was making was the sela petrae. Thank you, Transformers G1.
Note: I'll be honest, I rather like the headcanon that Leandra tried to homeschool her children to an extent and I can see her character doing so. Also, I think she'd have academical knowledge from her noble education while Malcolm would have more professional knowledge from his mercenary days.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 4:03:12 GMT
It totally went over my head. I never read the Anarchist Cookbook and I don't remember chemistry I class going over the specific combos that made bombs. The amount of shock when it blew up had me ranting and pacing the household as I agonized whether I should execute him. Morrigan and Solas also surprised me. But at least Morrigan was a pleasant surprise. Thank goodness, I got my happy ending with Alistair. Solas removed my death arm so I could retire o Babies with Cullen. No happy ending with Anders though :/ It's really hard to realize at first time, and the explosion really surprising. I wonder who have figured out immediately. (Not me...) Probably more easy, if the player don't sympathize with him. True, somewhat hard to help him, even as his friend, because he don't tell, what he want, I can't imagine, why Hawke help him in rivalry...
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 6, 2017 6:33:59 GMT
The question dodges what it is the real problem of Anders and to some extent of the DA and ME franchise.
Anders shouldn't have been in DAII at all in some people worldstates(including mine)but alas this is Bioware so they decided to canonize some decisions at the expense of some players so that everyone had to share the same consequences.That's the aspect i dislike more about the company,the choices they present have no meaning for the most part.
They tend to punish players who won't go along with the plotholes they create and encourage those who instead choose other paths either by not giving them consequences via ridiculous cop-outs or either by canonizing their decisions for everyone.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 6, 2017 6:51:38 GMT
I'd also say Hawke wouldn't know what these ingredients would do together. But it's an incredibly stupid lie. He's going to drink a potion of crushed piss/shit crystals and stone to free himself from possession? And Justice isn't fighting back at the thought of this? Mhm. Sure thing, you absolute nutter. Hawke may even refuse to help Anders and he is perfectly able to do everything on his own,so what was the point of asking for help in the first place?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 12:18:55 GMT
I'd also say Hawke wouldn't know what these ingredients would do together. But it's an incredibly stupid lie. He's going to drink a potion of crushed piss/shit crystals and stone to free himself from possession? And Justice isn't fighting back at the thought of this? Mhm. Sure thing, you absolute nutter. The rest of the ingredients have been obtained (as Anders said). But I said, he behave strange, so: Hawke rightly suspicious, but his/her experiences and studies do not allow conclude to Anders real plan.
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Post by procutemeister on Jan 6, 2017 12:32:24 GMT
I was able to recognize the ingredients he was asking for as an explosive mix, and I RP'ed my mage Hawke (who romanced him) as suspicious because he was behaving differently, but helped him anyway. She didn't realize what they were for until the thing happened. I also HC my Hawke as someone who isn't book smart, but relies on emotions and intuition, mainly because moving around so much as the Hawke family did + settling down in a small farming village didn't give them a lot of access to books.
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Post by Lulupab on Jan 6, 2017 12:40:28 GMT
Guessing he was up to something was in fact quite easy to determine. If you have full friendship with Anders, there is star dialogue you can have with him, in which he admits to doing something incriminating, but does not want Hawke involved in it.
But figuring out he was going to make the Chantry explode can be hard.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 12:41:23 GMT
Hawke may even refuse to help Anders and he is perfectly able to do everything on his own,so what was the point of asking for help in the first place? I forgot what his explanation for Hawke's assistance was. But ultimately, yeah, there was no point in asking since he can collect shit crystals by himself just fine. I guess writers just wanted Hawke to feel partially responsible for the bombing and to make Anders an even bigger anus gape by duping Hawke into his terrorist plot. idk lol. As I see: Hawke's explanation was Rivalry (this clear) : Hawke hate Justice (perhaps Anders too), s/he consider Anders as Abomination (even in "love"). In this case Hawke think, that maybe Anders may more "normal", if Justice gone. Friendship: Hawke want to help Anders, even if s/he don't consider Anders as Abomination, and consider this experiment dangerous (especially in love), because Anders argues, that he can work for mages, if the people see him as abomination. This is a credible argument, and he also mentioned before (after the Ella quest). Hawke's knowledge of the spirit world is deficient (as the Circle Mages, or less, especially if Hawke is a non-mage). Perhaps s/he suspect due Anders weird behavior, but at the moment s/he don't have strong reason to refuse his ask (as I said: except in love/strong friendship, if Hawke worries about Anders health/mental condition after this experiment – but Anders want this, so s/he can accept this, despite the risks – for example my Hawke). About Elthina quest: I don't know, what rival-Hawke's reason to accept this ask, in friendship the explanation is (at least my Hawke) in Anders last answer: "easy to support freedom, until no one to died to achieve it" (this is a strong reason for refuse too); so: yes, at this point Hawke can support Anders' action willingly. (And yes: the writers' goal was Hawke's involvement in the exposion. I think this is a far-fetched idea...)
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Post by phoray on Jan 6, 2017 15:11:47 GMT
I had no idea it was a bomb. I willingly got the ingredients,I just wanted to support him.
Then he asked to be snuck into the Church, and when I asked a simple question, he emotionally blackmailed me into capitulating.
That was very early on in act 3 for me because I was max friendship in Act 2 and his lover. By the time the explosion happened, I had forgotten all about the shady business of the ingredients what with everyone else's quests happening in succession right after.
Only my Hawke knowing more than I did, turning to ask Anders what he'd done, told me Anders had done the explosion. See, even with his staff banging and speech, I still hadn't connected the explosion that had just happened ....to him.
Maybe I'm just that slow. Or maybe I just never imagined Anders would do that in my wildest gaming dreams.
I was talking to husband about who he'd romance in DA2. He says he doesn't want to be forced to date a terrorist, even if his character is unknowing. I think right now he's leaning towards Fenris or Merrill.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 15:26:16 GMT
I had no idea it was a bomb. I willingly got the ingredients,I just wanted to support him. Then he asked to be snuck into the Church, and when I asked a simple question, he emotionally blackmailed me into capitulating. That was very early on in act 3 for me because I was max friendship in Act 2 and his lover. By the time the explosion happened, I had forgotten all about the shady business of the ingredients what with everyone else's quests happening in succession right after. Only my Hawke knowing more than I did, turning to ask Anders what he'd done, told me Anders had done the explosion. See, even with his staff banging and speech, I still hadn't connected the explosion that had just happened ....to him. Maybe I'm just that slow. Or maybe I just never imagined Anders would do that in my wildest gaming dreams. I was talking to husband about who he'd romance in DA2. He says he doesn't want to be forced to date a terrorist, even if his character is unknowing. I think right now he's leaning towards Fenris or Merrill. Yes, this is one of the reasons, why I said, that a little bit hard to accept his ask. (I always explained this as a desperate step –he able for it alone as well, but he need anyone who support him–; he don't break up because of this, despite a hard decision). The other is the fact, that he don't want to tell his plan. Even if Hawke agree with him, and don't refuse the bloody tools. And I agree: Fenris and Merrill much more easier case, and both are good choice (probably better than Anders for first, if anyone don't likes the drama or problematic characters).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Sah291 on Jan 6, 2017 16:43:19 GMT
Hmm, yes and no... I think it was hinted to the audience, but it's not necessarily supposed to be obvious to Hawke, because, remember gun powder is supposed to be a new cutting edge technology in Thedas, not something widely known about. Even if Hawke is a mage, it might have been obvious these were ingredients for an alchemical recipe of some sort, but he/she wouldn't necessarily know what they were being used for. It's obvious Anders was studying hard, for a while to figure it out in the first place.
That said, though. It's all very ambiguous because Hawke can have lines during the game where he/she can express support of the idea of the Black powder being sold and made available to the common man, and criticizing the Qunari for hoarding theirs from their own people. I think it's entirely possible for a friended Anders to have gotten the impression Hawke approved of using explosives/gunpowder for self defense, and could have even gotten the idea from his travels with Hawke. Which could seriously come back to bite Hawke if he/she didn't actually approve of taking it that far.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Finvola on Jan 6, 2017 16:59:26 GMT
I never thought for a second he was making a bomb the first time I played. I thought he was a little suspicious but I never would have guessed that's what he was planning. I think my jaw hit the floor when the chantry blew up.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2017 17:20:08 GMT
Hmm, yes and no... I think it was hinted to the audience, but it's not necessarily supposed to be obvious to Hawke, because, remember gun powder is supposed to be a new cutting edge technology in Thedas, not something widely known about. Even if Hawke is a mage, it might have been obvious these were ingredients for an alchemical recipe of some sort, but he/she wouldn't necessarily know what they were being used for. It's obvious Anders was studying hard, for a while to figure it out in the first place. That said, though. It's all very ambiguous because Hawke can have lines during the game where he/she can express support of the idea of the Black powder being sold and made available to the common man, and criticizing the Qunari for hoarding theirs from their own people. I think it's entirely possible for a friended Anders to have gotten the impression Hawke approved of using explosives/gunpowder for self defense, and could have even gotten the idea from his travels with Hawke. Which could seriously come back to bite Hawke if he/she didn't actually approve of taking it that far. Yes, there are dropped pieces of information in game, for the gamer and Hawke as well, but these is ambiguous, not clear (probably the sela petrae, but this for only the gamer. Hawke isn't an alchemist) As shechinah said, Anders have connection to the dwarf demolitions expert of the Vigil Keep, but there is no mention that Anders spoke about him to Hawke. Still my opinion, that Hawke can only guess, that Anders' plan will require human lives, nothing about the method.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 6, 2017 17:23:23 GMT
I realized he was making a bomb as soon as I saw the description for some of the ingredients. Unfortunately you can't do anything about it like turn that monster into the Templars.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
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Post by Sah291 on Jan 6, 2017 17:52:51 GMT
I unfortunately didn't play the game until years after release so I was semi spoiled. Still, sela petrae didn't stand out to me anyway, even though I know what saltpeter is...just glossed over it. The biggest hint for me what the dialogue about the giant cheese wheel.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 6, 2017 21:22:45 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!" Aside from the Qunari who have both Gaatlok and cannons, followed by the Dwarves of Orzammar who have developed small shaped charges, no-one else in Thedas has developed technologically to the point of mastering gunpowder. The lack of advanced explosives is part of the reason why ballistas, catapults and trebuchets still are the primary means of long-range artillery for armies in Thedas. We've seen them utilised in most of the battles we've witnessed or taken part in, from Ostagar, the Denerim, the Amaranthine, Haven, the Exalted Plains, Adamant Fortress... and so on. Awakening and DA2 showed that the Qunari guard the knowledge carefully, to the extent that they set a trap in DA2 with Saar-Qamek to try to dissuade would-be thieves from further attempts, as well as being rumoured in the epilogue of Awakening to have sent assassins after Dworkin when he got close to cracking the formula. Another possible reason for the lack of progress is due to the Blights every few centuries, that either wipe away any advancements that have been made or force societies to instead focus on recovery from near-annihilation. But it seems the primary reason for the lack of pursuit in this field is as Hawke points out in DA2; "Why bother when we have magic that can do the same thing?"
Since the Dwarves and the Qunari either don't have magic or actively try to avoid it altogether, it does explain why they were the first groups in Thedas to develop explosives, because they aren't as overdependent on magic as everyone else. So yeah... while we might recognise that it's gunpowder because the formula has become relatively common knowledge in our world, most of the people of Thedas wouldn't know what those ingredients were or how they were meant to be used. It'd be no different than handing Hawke a computer and expecting them to know if it stops working, they should try hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del or turning it off and on again... common knowledge that's so ingrained in most people that's become an automatic reflex?
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 7, 2017 5:12:38 GMT
That's more what I meant. How many people IRL, when hearing what he needed, suddenly went...."wait a second...."
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 7, 2017 5:46:23 GMT
Morrigan and Solas also surprised me. But at least Morrigan was a pleasant surprise. Thank goodness, I got my happy ending with Alistair. Solas removed my death arm so I could retire o Babies with Cullen.
No happy ending with Anders though :/ Don't forget the mabari I realized he was making a bomb as soon as I saw the description for some of the ingredients. Unfortunately you can't do anything about it like turn that monster into the Templars. That's a little harsh. It was a crappy situation, being stuck with Justice, whom he only merged with to help. Justice was really the one doing all those things. This is admitted by Anders before the end with the right dialogue options; he says he can't fight him anymore. And I wouldn't call Justice a monster either. He's a well-intentioned extremist. Spirits have been consistently shown to have a child-like black and white view of the world, particularly of the thing they represent, in this case justice. At least until learning more about the world, like Cole. The whole thing is very tragic, of course, from the union of Anders and Justice, to the explosion, to the ensuing chaos. But I hesitate to declare the ones responsible monsters for it. To me, a monster has to do things for the wrong reasons.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2017 5:52:19 GMT
Morrigan and Solas also surprised me. But at least Morrigan was a pleasant surprise. Thank goodness, I got my happy ending with Alistair. Solas removed my death arm so I could retire o Babies with Cullen.
No happy ending with Anders though :/ Don't forget the mabari I realized he was making a bomb as soon as I saw the description for some of the ingredients. Unfortunately you can't do anything about it like turn that monster into the Templars. That's a little harsh. It was a crappy situation, being stuck with Justice, whom he only merged with to help him. Justice was really the one doing all those things. This is admitted by Anders before the end with the right dialogue options; he says he can't fight him anymore. And I wouldn't call Justice a monster either. He's a well-intentioned extremist. Spirits have been consistently shown to have a child-like black and white view of the world, particularly of the thing they represent, in this case justice. At least until learning more about the world, like Cole. The whole thing is very tragic, of course, from the union of Anders and Justice to the explosion, to the ensuing chaos. But I hesitate to declare the ones responsible monsters for it. To me, a monster has to do things for the wrong reasons. It really isn't. That's me really holding back about what that abomination known as Anders is. Depends if you are friends or rivals with Anders. If rivals, then yes Justice takes control. If friends, Anders does it of his own free will. You can hesitate all you want. They planned to kill hundreds of innocent people to have thousands more innocent people killed to send a message and cause a war across the entire continent that cost or ruin countless lives. I'd argue that is for the wrong reasons. If anything, monster isn't a strong enough word for how terrible they are.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 9:30:53 GMT
Don't forget the mabari That's a little harsh. It was a crappy situation, being stuck with Justice, whom he only merged with to help him. Justice was really the one doing all those things. This is admitted by Anders before the end with the right dialogue options; he says he can't fight him anymore. And I wouldn't call Justice a monster either. He's a well-intentioned extremist. Spirits have been consistently shown to have a child-like black and white view of the world, particularly of the thing they represent, in this case justice. At least until learning more about the world, like Cole. The whole thing is very tragic, of course, from the union of Anders and Justice to the explosion, to the ensuing chaos. But I hesitate to declare the ones responsible monsters for it. To me, a monster has to do things for the wrong reasons. It really isn't. That's me really holding back about what that abomination known as Anders is. Depends if you are friends or rivals with Anders. If rivals, then yes Justice takes control. If friends, Anders does it of his own free will. You can hesitate all you want. They planned to kill hundreds of innocent people to have thousands more innocent people killed to send a message and cause a war across the entire continent that cost or ruin countless lives. I'd argue that is for the wrong reasons. If anything, monster isn't a strong enough word for how terrible they are. Nothing wrong with starting a revolution after 1000 years oppression. The Chantry killed much more people. I know, the people likes better, if the violence stay behind the doors, and/or covered by "law". This is much more acceptable and civilized (this called by some people: "peace"...), than a man, who try to do something against this practice (how evil, who disrupts this "peace"!). Monster? How you call that person, who assisted the templar's amuck actively or by silence?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 7, 2017 11:10:08 GMT
It really isn't. That's me really holding back about what that abomination known as Anders is. Depends if you are friends or rivals with Anders. If rivals, then yes Justice takes control. If friends, Anders does it of his own free will. You can hesitate all you want. They planned to kill hundreds of innocent people to have thousands more innocent people killed to send a message and cause a war across the entire continent that cost or ruin countless lives. I'd argue that is for the wrong reasons. If anything, monster isn't a strong enough word for how terrible they are. Nothing wrong with starting a revolution after 1000 years oppression. The Chantry killed much more people. I know, the people likes better, if the violence stay behind the doors, and/or covered by "law". This is much more acceptable and civilized (this called: "peace"!) than a man, who try to do something against this (how evil, who disrupts this "peace"!). Even if the Chantry has killed more people than the Mage-Templar war has, how is that an argument for more killing? I'd especially like to know how that's an argument for more widespread killing. The problem is that in addition to the violence Anders disapproved of staying behind closed doors, it only had a very serious effect on a minority of the population. As I understand it, Cullen admits that if anything like a significant percentage of the population were mages, the Circles would be unworkable. (And as an aside I wouldn't be as concerned by the thought of potential abominations loose in a city if any mage that turned and started wrecking shit was guaranteed to have two or three mages in shouting distance of him.) Meanwhile the entire population felt the heat of the Mage-Templar war. And if mage freedom goes the way the Pro-Templars predict rather than the way Pro-Mages predict, the entire population could be feeling yet more heat for a while to come. The mage rebellion was justified if the deaths that result from that are fewer than the deaths that would have resulted from the situation continuing to work as it did. (The deaths that happened because of the system before the mage rebellion started are evidence of how many deaths would have resulted from the situation continuing, but they shouldn't be used to justify the rebellion in and of themselves because the mages who are already dead can't benefit from the rebellion or be further harmed by the system.) I don't like a lot of the way the situation worked before, but at least most of the heat was directed towards a small group. The mage rebellion resulted in a lot more heat towards that small group in the short term, plus a lot more heat towards everyone else. The new system is going to have to work really well to save more lives than creating it destroyed. And every time a mage who would otherwise have been in the Circles starts using magic to harm others, or goes abomination in a crowded area, the cost of making that slim minority's lives better grows. And it only gets worse when you consider that the mage rebels seem to have passed over at least one option that could have made things better for them without making things much worse for everyone else. Fiona never considers trying to insinuate herself into the Divine's confidence, and in fact says "Fuck the Divine" in so many words when the idea of trying to do appeal to her is raised. If Fiona had done otherwise, the Divine could have reined in the Templars and gotten Fiona much of what she wanted without a drop of mage blood, Templar blood, or mundane blood being spilled. By the same token I think Anders could have made the Gallows a much better place if he'd found a way to hit Meredith (but not Cullen) with the gaatlok bomb instead of Elthina. The sanest Templar in Kirkwall suddenly gets control of the system, and when Elthina and Orsino suggest reasonable ways of making the mages lives better he presumably listens. The system is suddenly improved for the slim minority who need to be subject to it, without cost to the vast majority it protects. It depends on how and why. Elthina I'd call ineffective and far too patient with one of the real monsters in Kirkwall. Orsino I'd call a tragic monster, who got where he was with good intentions, but nonetheless aided and abetted the exact thing the Circles exist to protect others from, thus giving Meredith yet more ammunition against the mages instead of providing a counterexample to her narrative of the innate corruption of all mages. (This assumes we can trust a word he says about why he shielded Quentin of course.) And if you're asking what I call the non-mage civilians who accepted the system, and who couldn't have helped the mages much anyway, I call them civilians.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 11:55:43 GMT
Nothing wrong with starting a revolution after 1000 years oppression. The Chantry killed much more people. I know, the people likes better, if the violence stay behind the doors, and/or covered by "law". This is much more acceptable and civilized (this called: "peace"!) than a man, who try to do something against this (how evil, who disrupts this "peace"!). Monster? How you call that person, who assisted the templar's amuck actively or by silence? Even if the Chantry has killed more people than the Mage-Templar war has, how is that an argument for more killing? I'd especially like to know how that's an argument for more widespread killing. The problem is that in addition to the violence Anders disapproved of staying behind closed doors, it only had a very serious effect on a minority of the population. As I understand it, Cullen admits that if anything like a significant percentage of the population were mages, the Circles would be unworkable. (And as an aside I wouldn't be as concerned by the thought of potential abominations loose in a city if any mage that turned and started wrecking shit was guaranteed to have two or three mages in shouting distance of him.) Meanwhile the entire population felt the heat of the Mage-Templar war. And if mage freedom goes the way the Pro-Templars predict rather than the way Pro-Mages predict, the entire population could be feeling yet more heat for a while to come. The mage rebellion was justified if the deaths that result from that are fewer than the deaths that would have resulted from the situation continuing to work as it did. (The deaths that happened because of the system before the mage rebellion started are evidence of how many deaths would have resulted from the situation continuing, but they shouldn't be used to justify the rebellion in and of themselves because the mages who are already dead can't benefit from the rebellion or be further harmed by the system.) I don't like a lot of the way the situation worked before, but at least most of the heat was directed towards a small group. The mage rebellion resulted in a lot more heat towards that small group in the short term, plus a lot more heat towards everyone else. The new system is going to have to work really well to save more lives than creating it destroyed. And every time a mage who would otherwise have been in the Circles starts using magic to harm others, or goes abomination in a crowded area, the cost of making that slim minority's lives better grows. And it only gets worse when you consider that the mage rebels seem to have passed over at least one option that could have made things better for them without making things much worse for everyone else. Fiona never considers trying to insinuate herself into the Divine's confidence, and in fact says "Fuck the Divine" in so many words when the idea of trying to do appeal to her is raised. If Fiona had done otherwise, the Divine could have reined in the Templars and gotten Fiona much of what she wanted without a drop of mage blood, Templar blood, or mundane blood being spilled. By the same token I think Anders could have made the Gallows a much better place if he'd found a way to hit Meredith (but not Cullen) with the gaatlok bomb instead of Elthina. The sanest Templar in Kirkwall suddenly gets control of the system, and when Elthina and Orsino suggest reasonable ways of making the mages lives better he presumably listens. The system is suddenly improved for the slim minority who need to be subject to it, without cost to the vast majority it protects. It depends on how and why. Elthina I'd call ineffective and far too patient with one of the real monsters in Kirkwall. Orsino I'd call a tragic monster, who got where he was with good intentions, but nonetheless aided and abetted the exact thing the Circles exist to protect others from, thus giving Meredith yet more ammunition against the mages instead of providing a counterexample to her narrative of the innate corruption of all mages. (This assumes we can trust a word he says about why he shielded Quentin of course.) And if you're asking what I call the non-mage civilians who accepted the system, and who couldn't have helped the mages much anyway, I call them civilians. The rebellion would not have spread, had there been no demand for it. There was an explosion and Fiona's reckless worlds. This would be enough for a war, if nobody interest? I suppose: not. There are times when people lose their patience. This can be prevented if everyone is treated as a human. And you think, if just a few people is involved, the violence acceptable? I think: not. And much more people is involved: for example the parents of the mages (anyone can have mage children, nobody know beforehand). I think we already talked about why the Circle-system is dangerous, and more harm than benefit... good enough, what we can see in game and other medias (for example The Dawn of the Seeker). the harmless, "good" mages closed in the Circle, and abused by templars, the really dangerous mad people outside the Circle. On the other hand, in the Circles (we experienced, in Origins, in DA2), even the smallest apprentice studies the blood magic (what else can do, if closed in a life time...). Many of them never will use it, but still: the Circles are not safe for anyone, but they can give a false feeling of security. ____ Update: Elthina's sin much more than ineffective or too patient (ridiculous!), she knew about Meredith's cruelty and violation of the law, she was Meredith's accomplice, willingly. Orsino wasn't a monster (okay, at end... literally), he was a slave. I didn't spoke about the civilians. They are victims of the Chantry, of the rebellion. Every war have victims.
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