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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 20:06:11 GMT
As a player, the ingredients were obvious to me. I found it pretty odd too, since the game had made such an effort to tell me that only the qunari knew how to make blackpowder (which I assume their gaatlok is). The ingredients were not for the lyrium bombs that we saw in Awakening, so I still wonder how Anders knew what he was doing. I've referred to his explosive device as the "plothole bomb" ever since. Like the inability to tell Momma Hawke to be careful on Tinder, being unable to stop Anders is one of those moments were DA2 just forces you to stay along for the ride for the sake of drama. BioWare just like doing that, much like making you stand and talk during "Demands of the Qun" instead of just letting you try to give the Venatori the boot in time. It tends to make me grumpy since it feels like forced incompetence. 1. We know, what was the Awakening bomb's ingredients exactly? As I remember we know only, that for lyrium bomb needed lyrium sand. Anders needed Sela Petrae and some dragon shit, but these was not all of the ingredients, Anders told, that he already acquired the rest; so: lyrium isn't excluded. (And probably this ingredients was for the players: "Ah, how idiot I'm, that I have not seen!") You're right, Anders probably did not had reason to ask Dworkin Glavonak from his bomb, but he still have chance to know about it: he was there, when the warden gathered the indirigents. 2. I think yes, this is annoying, but seems quite realistic. The people unable to influence everything. True, in Ander's case, the player should be able to break up with him (not only love, but also friendship).
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 8, 2017 20:25:50 GMT
1. We know, what was the Awakening bomb's ingredients exactly? As I remember we know only, that for lyrium bomb needed lyrium sand. Anders needed Sela Petrae and some dragon shit, but these was not all of the ingredients, Anders told, that he already acquired the rest; so: lyrium isn't excluded. (And probably this ingredients was for the players: "Ah, how idiot I'm, that I have not seen!") You're right, Anders probably did not had reason to ask Dworkin Glavonak from his bomb, but he still have chance to know about it: he was there, when the warden gathered the indirigents. Classic blackpowder is made of saltpeter (sela petrae), sulfur (drakestone) and charcoal (the third ingredient that was easy for Anders to acquire alone whereas Lyrium trade is controlled by the dwarves). It seems a pretty good fit to me. But there must have also been magic involved since I'm pretty sure that not even the qunari have figured out time based detonators yet. Of course, it could have been a candle slowly burning down in a pool of flammable liquid...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 20:53:09 GMT
1. We know, what was the Awakening bomb's ingredients exactly? As I remember we know only, that for lyrium bomb needed lyrium sand. Anders needed Sela Petrae and some dragon shit, but these was not all of the ingredients, Anders told, that he already acquired the rest; so: lyrium isn't excluded. (And probably this ingredients was for the players: "Ah, how idiot I'm, that I have not seen!") You're right, Anders probably did not had reason to ask Dworkin Glavonak from his bomb, but he still have chance to know about it: he was there, when the warden gathered the indirigents. Classic blackpowder is made of saltpeter (sela petrae), sulfur (drakestone) and charcoal (the third ingredient that was easy for Anders to acquire alone whereas Lyrium trade is controlled by the dwarves). It seems a pretty good fit to me. But there must have also been magic involved since I'm pretty sure that not even the qunari have figured out time based detonators yet. Of course, it could have been a candle slowly burning down in a pool of flammable liquid... I think Anders was able to get some lyrium. Hawke also have. And yes, I always thinking about this timebased detonator, this is why I don't think, that was a simple black powder. But this candle idea is good! I like it! So romantic!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2017 21:10:50 GMT
1. We know, what was the Awakening bomb's ingredients exactly? As I remember we know only, that for lyrium bomb needed lyrium sand. Anders needed Sela Petrae and some dragon shit, but these was not all of the ingredients, Anders told, that he already acquired the rest; so: lyrium isn't excluded. (And probably this ingredients was for the players: "Ah, how idiot I'm, that I have not seen!") You're right, Anders probably did not had reason to ask Dworkin Glavonak from his bomb, but he still have chance to know about it: he was there, when the warden gathered the indirigents. Classic blackpowder is made of saltpeter (sela petrae), sulfur (drakestone) and charcoal (the third ingredient that was easy for Anders to acquire alone whereas Lyrium trade is controlled by the dwarves). It seems a pretty good fit to me. But there must have also been magic involved since I'm pretty sure that not even the qunari have figured out time based detonators yet. Of course, it could have been a candle slowly burning down in a pool of flammable liquid... Wasn't it said somewhere that Lyrium was stored in the basement of the Kirkwall Chantry, which was where Anders planted his bomb?
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 8, 2017 21:51:44 GMT
Wasn't it said somewhere that Lyrium was stored in the basement of the Kirkwall Chantry, which was where Anders planted his bomb? Hm, could be. To be honest, it has been a long while that I played DA2, and I don't remember every conversation or codex entry today. That red glow of the explosion sure meant that at least some magical component was present for certain, so it could have been that. Overall, I found the entire Anders end game business a bit odd. I never murder knifed him, but I saw the scene on youtube, and it's weird how he surrenders to that. You'd think that a man with a cause wants to live to see said cause fulfilled.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2017 21:53:42 GMT
Wasn't it said somewhere that Lyrium was stored in the basement of the Kirkwall Chantry, which was where Anders planted his bomb? Hm, could be. To be honest, it has been a long while that I played DA2, and I don't remember every conversation or codex entry today. That red glow of the explosion sure meant that at least some magical component was present for certain, so it could have been that. Overall, I found the entire Anders end game business a bit odd. I never murder knifed him, but I saw the scene on youtube, and it's weird how he surrenders to that. You'd think that a man with a cause wants to live to see said cause fulfilled. He accepts it because he thinks he will be a martyr if he is killed for his actions. Ironically he is seen as the exact opposite and seen as a madman by the mages, even the ones who want freedom.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 22:09:05 GMT
Wasn't it said somewhere that Lyrium was stored in the basement of the Kirkwall Chantry, which was where Anders planted his bomb? Hm, could be. To be honest, it has been a long while that I played DA2, and I don't remember every conversation or codex entry today. That red glow of the explosion sure meant that at least some magical component was present for certain, so it could have been that. Overall, I found the entire Anders end game business a bit odd. I never murder knifed him, but I saw the scene on youtube, and it's weird how he surrenders to that. You'd think that a man with a cause wants to live to see said cause fulfilled. He was determined, before the explosion, he was horrified, when it happened. I don't think, that he was really "happy" with the result, I don't think, he was prepared for this result; rather he felt himself guilty. People died by his hand. I think, that not easy, even if seems necessary. Yes, his goal fulfilled. But I think, he felt, that he deserves to die. As I see, even Justice agreed with it; this is a possibly reason, why didn't prevented this. But finally Anders was grateful for his life, and really enthusiastic at the battle.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 9, 2017 8:19:31 GMT
1. We know, what was the Awakening bomb's ingredients exactly? As I remember we know only, that for lyrium bomb needed lyrium sand. Anders needed Sela Petrae and some dragon shit, but these was not all of the ingredients, Anders told, that he already acquired the rest; so: lyrium isn't excluded. (And probably this ingredients was for the players: "Ah, how idiot I'm, that I have not seen!") You're right, Anders probably did not had reason to ask Dworkin Glavonak from his bomb, but he still have chance to know about it: he was there, when the warden gathered the indirigents. Classic blackpowder is made of saltpeter (sela petrae), sulfur (drakestone) and charcoal (the third ingredient that was easy for Anders to acquire alone whereas Lyrium trade is controlled by the dwarves). It seems a pretty good fit to me. But there must have also been magic involved since I'm pretty sure that not even the qunari have figured out time based detonators yet. Of course, it could have been a candle slowly burning down in a pool of flammable liquid... That, and because a mundane explosion would have looked nothing like that. Lyrium is probably the answer. Most magical devices use it, and we know it's not as hard to get as it probably should be. Hawke can get some smuggled lyrium offscreen and use it to develop Templar abilities.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 9, 2017 9:05:26 GMT
It seems the argument you two are having is a major difference of philosophy. I only know the name of one side of this argument, though, which is Utilitarianism. One could debate that the temporary suffering of the many will elevate society to a better form, making the "many" of the future better. We are limited to the writing of the game however. I agree that the Rebellion was not even close to organized, and if the Divine hadn't ticked off the Templars it would have ended so quickly as to be a footnote in Thedas History. But the OP was whether or not we as Players or Hawke should have noticed sooner and, as always, it has turned into an Anders debate. And since he is the front man of the Rebellion, that has come up too. I didn't notice. I should have broke up with him for being a douche about the Chantry mission. And Hawke is never allowed to notice as far as I can tell, just be suspicious. I think both of us are using utilitarianism. We just disagree about which solution causes less pain. Catilina seems to be using the utilitarian argument you describe (although Witchcocktor seems to be arguing that he's just using that as a smokescreen for caring a whole lot more about mage suffering than mundane suffering, and I'm not prepared to rule that out myself.) My argument, on the other hand, is that what I understand of the ending of DA2 and what I experienced of the early bits of DA:I suggest there's a whole lot of short term suffering that the better future needs to pay forward to be a better deal. Like a Titan swinger party's worth. It would eventually do that if things went smoothly, but when has anything in this setting ever gone smoothly?
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 30, 2017 15:22:06 GMT
I figured out that Anders`s quest is about something similar to gunpowder. I know some chemistry and made gunpowder for a small "cannon" with a friend when I was a child. Also, Anders acted suspiciously, and behaved like he wanted Hawke to not be involved further. I expected that Anders will use it to make a new exit from the Circle for mages, helping them escape. So the explosion was a big surprise for me. Afterward, it seemed reasonable for a plan made by Justice: leaving two options instead of three or more. In many ways it was the highlight of the game. Bigger surprise than the Arishok`s final reaction at the qunari compound, or Corypheus`s escape.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 10:22:23 GMT
Overall, I found the entire Anders end game business a bit odd. I never murder knifed him, but I saw the scene on youtube, and it's weird how he surrenders to that. You'd think that a man with a cause wants to live to see said cause fulfilled. Not necessarily. If we think that Anders from DA:OA is replaced in DA2 by Anders/Justice - a human being with two merged souls, one a Fade spirit. It`s possible that Anders doesn`t particularly liked what he became, and wasn`t exactly fond to live, but wanted to fulfill his goal to free the mages. For that purpose, a sacrificed Anders serve his cause maybe even better because he becomes a martyr, all real life, personal flaws being removed.
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 1, 2017 10:37:57 GMT
Overall, I found the entire Anders end game business a bit odd. I never murder knifed him, but I saw the scene on youtube, and it's weird how he surrenders to that. You'd think that a man with a cause wants to live to see said cause fulfilled. Not necessarily. If we think that Anders from DA:OA is replaced in DA2 by Anders/Justice - a human being with two merged souls, one a Fade spirit. It`s possible that Anders doesn`t particularly liked what he became, and wasn`t exactly fond to live, but wanted to fulfill his goal to free the mages. For that purpose, a sacrificed Anders serve his cause maybe even better because he becomes a martyr, all real life, personal flaws being removed. That is an understandable motivation, yes. The question is though, who would consider him a martyr? The mages certainly, but they were on his side already. The templars... obviously not. The populace of Kirkwall? Iffy... given the rate at which mages went crazy in that city, they might likely consider him just another lunatic. But then again, the only person this decision needs to make sense for is Anders, so you're likely right. It is a train of thought I can see him following.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 11:17:51 GMT
That is an understandable motivation, yes. The question is though, who would consider him a martyr? The mages certainly, but they were on his side already. The templars... obviously not. The populace of Kirkwall? Iffy... given the rate at which mages went crazy in that city, they might likely consider him just another lunatic. But then again, the only person this decision needs to make sense for is Anders, so you're likely right. It is a train of thought I can see him following. Exactly! Anders`s actions from DA2 Act 3 make perfect sense for Anders/Justice. He inherits Justice`s "black and white" dual logic, and single-minded pursue of a goal. What Anders says after the destruction of the Chantry: "There is no compromise. I removed the compromise." make perfect sense for a being who is used to consider only two options, thus removing a third one (compromise) seems a logical solution. For this reason, I don`t consider Anders/Justice`s choice as an act of terror from his perspective. It`s something that such a being can do, because the Justice part - a spirit who lived in a more simple and abstract world, with no human-like social interactions, and imperfect social structures.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 14:16:42 GMT
That is an understandable motivation, yes. The question is though, who would consider him a martyr? The mages certainly, but they were on his side already. The templars... obviously not. The populace of Kirkwall? Iffy... given the rate at which mages went crazy in that city, they might likely consider him just another lunatic. But then again, the only person this decision needs to make sense for is Anders, so you're likely right. It is a train of thought I can see him following. Exactly! Anders`s actions from DA2 Act 3 make perfect sense for Anders/Justice. He inherits Justice`s "black and white" dual logic, and single-minded pursue of a goal. What Anders says after the destruction of the Chantry: "There is no compromise. I removed the compromise." make perfect sense for a being who is used to consider only two options, thus removing a third one (compromise) seems a logical solution. For this reason, I don`t consider Anders/Justice`s choice as an act of terror from his perspective. It`s something that such a being can do, because the Justice part - a spirit who lived in a more simple and abstract world, with no human-like social interactions, and imperfect social structures. On the other hand Anders searched for compromise for seven years, and failed in it, before he decided, that there are no compromise. Not only a "black and white", fade spirit-like person can to reach such a conclusion. Especially if for seven years in vain sought a peaceful solution, but still, he want to give one more chance in the last minute: "No, talk of mages. Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered. To pick a side. Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you."*
And this "final chance" wording is even a trace to non-alchemist Hawke, that his/her help need for to ensure a bloody action. _______ *From the rivalry path we know, that here still a chance to stop the action. In friendship Hawke don't want to dissuade him from it, no matter the cost – „This is a war…”, or don't want to know about the bloody consequences of his/her assistance.)
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 14:35:52 GMT
On the other hand Anders searched for compromise for seven years, and failed in it, before he decided, that there are no compromise. Not only a "black and white", fade spirit-like person can to reach such a conclusion. Especially if for seven years in vain sought a peaceful solution, but still, he want to give one more chance in the last minute: "No, talk of mages. Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered. To pick a side. Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you."*
And this "final chance" wording is even a trace to non-alchemist Hawke, that his/her help need for to ensure a bloody action. _______ *From the rivalry path we know, that here still a chance to stop the action. In friendship Hawke don't want to dissuade him from it, no matter the cost – „This is a war…”, or don't want to know about the bloody consequences of his/her assistance.)As far as I remember, Anders/Justice never said anything about looking for a compromise solution for the mage-templar problem, He only sought ways to help mages (joining the mage underground) finding evidence against Alrik`s "tranquil solution" as a mean to denounce it, not to reach a compromise. The "give her one final chance" sounds quite ... final though. I remember that it baffled me at the time. I still didn`t suspected that Anders will choose to blew up the Chantry. Since I did the Leliana quest earlier, I suspected Elthina was targeted by the rebel mages, and Anders knew about this, or even was linked to the movement. But the "explosive" solution was not in my mind. It sounded obvious after, but not before.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 17:01:34 GMT
On the other hand Anders searched for compromise for seven years, and failed in it, before he decided, that there are no compromise. Not only a "black and white", fade spirit-like person can to reach such a conclusion. Especially if for seven years in vain sought a peaceful solution, but still, he want to give one more chance in the last minute: "No, talk of mages. Give her one final chance to hear what we have suffered. To pick a side. Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you."*
And this "final chance" wording is even a trace to non-alchemist Hawke, that his/her help need for to ensure a bloody action. _______ *From the rivalry path we know, that here still a chance to stop the action. In friendship Hawke don't want to dissuade him from it, no matter the cost – „This is a war…”, or don't want to know about the bloody consequences of his/her assistance.)As far as I remember, Anders/Justice never said anything about looking for a compromise solution for the mage-templar problem, He only sought ways to help mages (joining the mage underground) finding evidence against Alrik`s "tranquil solution" as a mean to denounce it, not to reach a compromise. The "give her one final chance" sounds quite ... final though. I remember that it baffled me at the time. I still didn`t suspected that Anders will choose to blew up the Chantry. Since I did the Leliana quest earlier, I suspected Elthina was targeted by the rebel mages, and Anders knew about this, or even was linked to the movement. But the "explosive" solution was not in my mind. It sounded obvious after, but not before. I dont think, anyone suspected, Anders will blow up the Chantry (if not from the ingredients – but this is not based of Hawke's knowledge), only the bloody action, what change everything. The explosion was surprising to Hawke, no doubt. Anders not necessarily wanted the war from the start. To searching for evidence against Alrik not necessary mean to searching for compromise, this also can mean that Anders/Justice want to sure about Templars' and Chantry's guilty, before to start making any fatal action. But also can mean that Anders/Justice wanted a more peaceful/lawful solution. When she received the results, somewhat calmed down. He seemed relieved, this is a moment when he can start the romance. (He won time?) Later he will upset again, after Orsino and Meredith confrontation, Elthina's "neutral" attitude. Really not excluded, that Anders knew about The Resolutionists' action, and even possibly, that he would be the executive, after that Meredith destroyed the mage underground, but he does not confirm it. "Like any mage with a brain can't come up with 'let's rebel' " So: I don't know. Beside it: probably there are among them, who expert in the blasting, and Anders able to learn from them about the method. Against it: probably there are among them, who expert in the blasting, why Anders would do that without experience? So: this is possible, but is not proven. Another question. The chance to Compromise was Elthina's positive Decision about mages. and yes, Probably, he knew, that this is bullshit, because of Elthina's reaction at the beginning of Act3. But still. Possible, if Elthina would have been willing to change, Anders would have been willing to stop and wait.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 1, 2017 19:05:49 GMT
Not necessarily. If we think that Anders from DA:OA is replaced in DA2 by Anders/Justice - a human being with two merged souls, one a Fade spirit. It`s possible that Anders doesn`t particularly liked what he became, and wasn`t exactly fond to live, but wanted to fulfill his goal to free the mages. For that purpose, a sacrificed Anders serve his cause maybe even better because he becomes a martyr, all real life, personal flaws being removed. That is an understandable motivation, yes. The question is though, who would consider him a martyr? The mages certainly, but they were on his side already. The templars... obviously not. The populace of Kirkwall? Iffy... given the rate at which mages went crazy in that city, they might likely consider him just another lunatic. But then again, the only person this decision needs to make sense for is Anders, so you're likely right. It is a train of thought I can see him following. Some variations of Anders' answers, before Hawke execute him: "I know. For what it's wort, I'm glad it's you. It was nice to be happy... for a while." (in romance)"I know. You should have done this long ago." (in rivalry)"I know. The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations." (in friendship)If Hawke accept Sebastian's argument (friendship): (Hawke: "He's right. The grand cleric deserves justice.") "Yes. I would not deny anyone's right to that. The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations."So: Anders not in all circumstances choose the martyr variation. The friendship can strengthen his conviction, that his way was right, but don't deny that the innocent's deserve justice (I think, the Grand Cleric deserved Justice...), but the love seems more important to him in the last moment than declare his martyrdom. In rivalry he don't want anything just die, he don't believe in anything anymore – as Fenris said: " He wants to die. Kill him, and we done here"... Yes, perhaps this is the best solution in this case. And who will consider him a martyr? In moment probably no one, at least in Kirkwall. Later/in another Circles? There are more chance. In Inquisition Hawke –in romance–, told that after they exiled from Kirkwall, they helped in Circles to start the rebellion. So, seems not everyone hates him. And later? In similar situation? Why not? The revolutioners' consideration is always changing, depending on the circumstances.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2017 23:51:11 GMT
Don't forget the mabari That's a little harsh. It was a crappy situation, being stuck with Justice, whom he only merged with to help him. Justice was really the one doing all those things. This is admitted by Anders before the end with the right dialogue options; he says he can't fight him anymore. And I wouldn't call Justice a monster either. He's a well-intentioned extremist. Spirits have been consistently shown to have a child-like black and white view of the world, particularly of the thing they represent, in this case justice. At least until learning more about the world, like Cole. The whole thing is very tragic, of course, from the union of Anders and Justice to the explosion, to the ensuing chaos. But I hesitate to declare the ones responsible monsters for it. To me, a monster has to do things for the wrong reasons. It really isn't. That's me really holding back about what that abomination known as Anders is. Depends if you are friends or rivals with Anders. If rivals, then yes Justice takes control. If friends, Anders does it of his own free will. You can hesitate all you want. They planned to kill hundreds of innocent people to have thousands more innocent people killed to send a message and cause a war across the entire continent that cost or ruin countless lives. I'd argue that is for the wrong reasons. If anything, monster isn't a strong enough word for how terrible they are. What was your opinion of Anders and Justice in Awakenings? I'm curious because in the game's initial planning, the writers toyed with the ideas of Velanna or Nathaniel as other possible hosts for Justice in DA2.
Anyone think the writers should have created a new character to be their Mageneto, or do you think Anders and Justice merging still made a good story?
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Post by Wynne on Feb 5, 2017 9:59:56 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!" Reading this thread, I'm shocked by how weird I seem to be. I did figure out what he was doing. Not the letter, but the spirit of it. I utterly freaked out after listening to him and refused to play through the chantry mission where you help him--not because of being some kind of Dragon Age lore nerd plus real life anarchist cookbook memorizer, simply from the dialogue plus my own instincts. One of the biggest issues I had with DA2 was feeling like Hawke was holding the idiot ball arbitrarily--I could get to the dialogue, I could watch my character get upset about it, but I couldn't follow him or try to stop him or anything that I wanted to do. It made my head want to explode. Then when the chantry did instead, I was so shocked by the full extent of what had happened and the fact that living people had been in there that I just... I couldn't take it. I stabbed Anders despite him being my romance. I couldn't believe he'd blown up a neutral party. Now, years later, after playing Inquisition... I find a disturbing amount of devil's advocacy creeping up in me. A terrorist is trying to inflict fear on civilians by killing at random for xenophobic reasons--that's not what Blondie did. He didn't bomb a crowded marketplace to make people afraid of mages. He killed religious authority figures who were taking donations but not reining in an organization which was rife with abuses... tranquils made from innocent people, used as robots to peddle wares; rapes; tortures; executions when they were the ones who goaded vulnerable people into facing trials they weren't ready for. I ended up asking myself, unsettled, do I have sympathy for the citizens of Nazi Germany who stood by indifferently or, worse, with pride as Hitler committed his atrocities and tried to crush the world under his thumb? No. So why should I defend this cruel, base, authoritarian structure which demands obedience but offers nothing in return? Anders tried. He had hope for Elthina. He waited many years before acting against her at all. And he understands completely if you hate him and want him to die; it's nothing less than he expects or wants. He's willing to sacrifice his LIFE to do this after many years of suffering and watching others suffer; a lifetime of that, in fact. It was a desperate last straw decision. A statement: "You can't just sit forever in your cushy Chantries pretending it will all be fine while we die and worse. You had the authority to make this better. You've done nothing. Now for all those you've allowed to die, face justice." Again, I think of the passive in Nazi Germany. Not the scared ones, but the ones who simply didn't care either way. "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing." And Elthina did nothing, for a decade and who knows how much more. Mages are imprisoned their entire lives for no crime at all. Fenris's powers would utterly terrify me if I met him in person--does that mean he deserves to be locked away? It's not like he ISN'T a loose cannon or a killer himself--he'd literally murder his own sister without being restrained. He certainly doesn't deserve his freedom more than any mage in the Hawke family, yet the Chantry and the Templars would lock the Hawkes up and NOT Fenris, if they could. This is arbitrary, prejudiced, abusive, and STUPID. It's ridiculously unethical and appallingly, horrendously unjust. It's not the power, it's the PERSON. No one should be locked up by default. Only criminals and murderers deserve to be locked away, not nice people like Wynne (someone so irrepressibly kind that even when a spirit was drawn to her, it was apparently a spirit of compassion--yet she'd be called an abomination and killed by default) and Irving and Malcolm Hawke and Bethany and Mage!Hawke... people shouldn't be imprisoned just because we're scared of what they could do if they chose to. (Even Orsino, who knew blood magic, was never supposed to use it as I hear UNLESS you sided with the Templars, but it was decided that the game needed another boss battle. Ugh, that really bothered me. It makes so much more sense when Hawke is NOT on your side kicking all the asses that ever were.) Am I scared of someone who can wield a sniper rifle, or someone who's nearly seven feet tall and built like a brick house? You'd better believe I am, but that doesn't mean I'd have the gall to suggest that these 'freaks', however dangerous to me that they might be if they lost their minds, don't deserve their human rights. I'm happy there are police to protect me, but I don't want everyone who could be a potential danger to me to be locked up. It's MY job to deal with my fear. It's not rational to demand the imprisonment of those who can do things I can't, even if they have weapons that could do extreme amounts of damage to me. "Magic was meant to serve man, never to rule over him." Funny how that turned into "Mages are meant to serve as tranquil, or be imprisoned for the entirety of their lives and told what freaks they are and how evil lives inside of them until their hearts are poisoned and they decide to embrace demons because their real lives are too horrible to bother living." And pardon, but who in the Chantry was inclined to do anything about this inhuman and bigoted systematic abuse? I have trouble recalling a single one. They're not even kind to their own. Cullen should have been allowed nowhere near the Order before he'd emotionally healed, but those monsters just stuck him back in. No therapy, no help, just--"here you go, welcome back, we're sure you won't abuse anyone after being tortured by a demon, wink wink". And the lyrium addiction, the control... it's a disgusting system which damages the Templars as much as the mages, and never seems to consider that maybe it's CAUSING as many problems as it solves. I get as angry for the Templars as I do for the mages, honestly. "Here, act as our meat shields so we can control and profit from these useful freaks." Elthina's a nice person, outwardly... but with no moral courage whatsoever and no interest in taking a stand for her flock's sake. What is a revolution? It is a rising up of people against systematic oppression. Innocent people are sure to die, yes, and that is tragic... but when a group of people's suffering is so great that life no longer feels worth living without freedom, what other choice did they have? Innocent people died during the American and French revolutions, and WWII because people chose to fight Hitler--but how else do you defeat an immoral, bigoted authoritarian regime? When those like Elthina will not lift a finger, and the Templars will Tranquilize those who speak out against injustices, what chance is there for a bloodless change? It's not like Anders could stand in the middle of Hightown and hold a peaceful protest of mages that would be heard by anyone who could do a damned thing. He'd have been hauled in and made Tranquil just like anyone who voiced any dissent. Did Karl seem like anything but a mild-mannered, beaten-down soul? There was no reason to make him Tranquil. This was an atrocity--nothing less. And when you have a society where human rights are not even a THING, where there IS no free speech and you can face a fate worse than death simply for disagreeing and wanting your freedom since you've never done anything wrong, how else can you fight that? This is EXACTLY WHY free speech and the right to assemble peacefully exist--so that the people DO NOT HAVE TO REVOLT. And what happened here? The beginning of a revolution, because all other options for peaceful change had been denied to the mages. I'm not sure the Divine and the Chantry would have heard the outcry of the mages with any measure less drastic. In fact, I can't imagine it happening because Meredith made sure they were silenced. But furthermore, when I really contemplate it... what would have happened if there was no Conclave? If the Divine had been ALONE when Corypheus struck instead of guarded by a crowd of people, only ONE of whom even survived? The thought of it chills my blood. No power vacuum for the Inquisition to slip into? No chaos for it to solve and gain traction and gain recognition? Even if there had been an Inquisitor, they might have been weeks, even months too late in getting their footing, crying out for volunteers and for the leaders to wake up--in vain, and all too late to fix what came. Much like in Mass Effect, those in power are often slow to move and uninterested in change. As much as it grieves me, as much as I hated him once... I have finally come to grudgingly accept what Anders did as a potential historical necessity. I never expected this, but I do. Families who ignore their mage children and either spoil them or treat them with ignorance and fear and teach them that their magic is shameful... they see that go bad easily, in contrast to the Hawkes. Societies like Tevinter are obviously a no-go; that leads to blood magic abuse, power-madness, etc. But the Chantry and Templar rule is not the solution either. I like what Cullen suggested in DAI--a mixed military--but I think that should only be one possibility and there should be other choices. Clinics like the one Anders set up, with Templars there to both protect and keep watch over those who work there. Circles, but OPEN Circles. Colleges of learning. Allow mages to TRULY serve man, in whatever way makes the best sense for them. And set up counselors dedicated to caring for both the mages and the Templars, regular hearings, write a list of rights for both sides, and don't forbid people to mix but set up rules to deal with the minglings when they happen, so that no Templar has authority over a mage he's involved with. And for pity's sake, stop spreading fear and bigotry. If mages were treated like equals, and raised right like Hawke and Bethany were, then these terrible things wouldn't happen. There will always be casualties in war, but some wars are justified and necessary. When a group of people are oppressed, and tortured or killed if they dare to dissent, their actions in the pursuit of freedom are the authoritarian regime's fault, not their own. This because that system made it necessary for the oppressed to say, "Give me liberty or give me death."
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Post by Catilina on Feb 5, 2017 11:09:15 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!" Reading this thread, I'm shocked by how weird I seem to be. I did figure out what he was doing. Not the letter, but the spirit of it. I utterly freaked out after listening to him and refused to play through the chantry mission where you help him--not because of being some kind of Dragon Age lore nerd plus real life anarchist cookbook memorizer, simply from the dialogue plus my own instincts. One of the biggest issues I had with DA2 was feeling like Hawke was holding the idiot ball arbitrarily--I could get to the dialogue, I could watch my character get upset about it, but I couldn't follow him or try to stop him or anything that I wanted to do. It made my head want to explode. Then when the chantry did instead, I was so shocked by the full extent of what had happened and the fact that living people had been in there that I just... I couldn't take it. I stabbed Anders despite him being my romance. I couldn't believe he'd blown up a neutral party. Now, years later, after playing Inquisition... I find a disturbing amount of devil's advocacy creeping up in me. A terrorist is trying to inflict fear on civilians by killing at random for xenophobic reasons--that's not what Blondie did. He didn't bomb a crowded marketplace to make people afraid of mages. He killed religious authority figures who were taking donations but not reining in an organization which was rife with abuses... tranquils made from innocent people, used as robots to peddle wares; rapes; tortures; executions when they were the ones who goaded vulnerable people into facing trials they weren't ready for. I ended up asking myself, unsettled, do I have sympathy for the citizens of Nazi Germany who stood by indifferently or, worse, with pride as Hitler committed his atrocities and tried to crush the world under his thumb? No. So why should I defend this cruel, base, authoritarian structure which demands obedience but offers nothing in return? Anders tried. He had hope for Elthina. He waited many years before acting against her at all. And he understands completely if you hate him and want him to die; it's nothing less than he expects or wants. He's willing to sacrifice his LIFE to do this after many years of suffering and watching others suffer; a lifetime of that, in fact. It was a desperate last straw decision. A statement: "You can't just sit forever in your cushy Chantries pretending it will all be fine while we die and worse. You had the authority to make this better. You've done nothing. Now for all those you've allowed to die, face justice." Again, I think of the passive in Nazi Germany. Not the scared ones, but the ones who simply didn't care either way. "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing." And Elthina did nothing, for a decade and who knows how much more. Mages are imprisoned their entire lives for no crime at all. Fenris's powers would utterly terrify me if I met him in person--does that mean he deserves to be locked away? It's not like he ISN'T a loose cannon or a killer himself--he'd literally murder his own sister without being restrained. He certainly doesn't deserve his freedom more than any mage in the Hawke family, yet the Chantry and the Templars would lock the Hawkes up and NOT Fenris, if they could. This is arbitrary, prejudiced, abusive, and STUPID. It's ridiculously unethical and appallingly, horrendously unjust. It's not the power, it's the PERSON. No one should be locked up by default. Only criminals and murderers deserve to be locked away, not nice people like Wynne (someone so irrepressibly kind that even when a spirit was drawn to her, it was apparently a spirit of compassion--yet she'd be called an abomination and killed by default) and Irving and Malcolm Hawke and Bethany and Mage!Hawke... people shouldn't be imprisoned just because we're scared of what they could do if they chose to. (Even Orsino, who knew blood magic, was never supposed to use it as I hear UNLESS you sided with the Templars, but it was decided that the game needed another boss battle. Ugh, that really bothered me. It makes so much more sense when Hawke is NOT on your side kicking all the asses that ever were.) Am I scared of someone who can wield a sniper rifle, or someone who's nearly seven feet tall and built like a brick house? You'd better believe I am, but that doesn't mean I'd have the gall to suggest that these 'freaks', however dangerous to me that they might be if they lost their minds, don't deserve their human rights. I'm happy there are police to protect me, but I don't want everyone who could be a potential danger to me to be locked up. It's MY job to deal with my fear. It's not rational to demand the imprisonment of those who can do things I can't, even if they have weapons that could do extreme amounts of damage to me. "Magic was meant to serve man, never to rule over him." Funny how that turned into "Mages are meant to serve as tranquil, or be imprisoned for the entirety of their lives and told what freaks they are and how evil lives inside of them until their hearts are poisoned and they decide to embrace demons because their real lives are too horrible to bother living." And pardon, but who in the Chantry was inclined to do anything about this inhuman and bigoted systematic abuse? I have trouble recalling a single one. They're not even kind to their own. Cullen should have been allowed nowhere near the Order before he'd emotionally healed, but those monsters just stuck him back in. No therapy, no help, just--"here you go, welcome back, we're sure you won't abuse anyone after being tortured by a demon, wink wink". And the lyrium addiction, the control... it's a disgusting system which damages the Templars as much as the mages, and never seems to consider that maybe it's CAUSING as many problems as it solves. I get as angry for the Templars as I do for the mages, honestly. "Here, act as our meat shields so we can control and profit from these useful freaks." Elthina's a nice person, outwardly... but with no moral courage whatsoever and no interest in taking a stand for her flock's sake. What is a revolution? It is a rising up of people against systematic oppression. Innocent people are sure to die, yes, and that is tragic... but when a group of people's suffering is so great that life no longer feels worth living without freedom, what other choice did they have? Innocent people died during the American and French revolutions, and WWII because people chose to fight Hitler--but how else do you defeat an immoral, bigoted authoritarian regime? When those like Elthina will not lift a finger, and the Templars will Tranquilize those who speak out against injustices, what chance is there for a bloodless change? It's not like Anders could stand in the middle of Hightown and hold a peaceful protest of mages that would be heard by anyone who could do a damned thing. He'd have been hauled in and made Tranquil just like anyone who voiced any dissent. Did Karl seem like anything but a mild-mannered, beaten-down soul? There was no reason to make him Tranquil. This was an atrocity--nothing less. And when you have a society where human rights are not even a THING, where there IS no free speech and you can face a fate worse than death simply for disagreeing and wanting your freedom since you've never done anything wrong, how else can you fight that? This is EXACTLY WHY free speech and the right to assemble peacefully exist--so that the people DO NOT HAVE TO REVOLT. And what happened here? The beginning of a revolution, because all other options for peaceful change had been denied to the mages. I'm not sure the Divine and the Chantry would have heard the outcry of the mages with any measure less drastic. In fact, I can't imagine it happening because Meredith made sure they were silenced. But furthermore, when I really contemplate it... what would have happened if there was no Conclave? If the Divine had been ALONE when Corypheus struck instead of guarded by a crowd of people, only ONE of whom even survived? The thought of it chills my blood. No power vacuum for the Inquisition to slip into? No chaos for it to solve and gain traction and gain recognition? Even if there had been an Inquisitor, they might have been weeks, even months too late in getting their footing, crying out for volunteers and for the leaders to wake up--in vain, and all too late to fix what came. Much like in Mass Effect, those in power are often slow to move and uninterested in change. As much as it grieves me, as much as I hated him once... I have finally come to grudgingly accept what Anders did as a potential historical necessity. I never expected this, but I do. Families who ignore their mage children and either spoil them or treat them with ignorance and fear and teach them that their magic is shameful... they see that go bad easily, in contrast to the Hawkes. Societies like Tevinter are obviously a no-go; that leads to blood magic abuse, power-madness, etc. But the Chantry and Templar rule is not the solution either. I like what Cullen suggested in DAI--a mixed military--but I think that should only be one possibility and there should be other choices. Clinics like the one Anders set up, with Templars there to both protect and keep watch over those who work there. Circles, but OPEN Circles. Colleges of learning. Allow mages to TRULY serve man, in whatever way makes the best sense for them. And set up counselors dedicated to caring for both the mages and the Templars, regular hearings, write a list of rights for both sides, and don't forbid people to mix but set up rules to deal with the minglings when they happen, so that no Templar has authority over a mage he's involved with. And for pity's sake, stop spreading fear and bigotry. If mages were treated like equals, and raised right like Hawke and Bethany were, then these terrible things wouldn't happen. There will always be casualties in war, but some wars are justified and necessary. When a group of people are oppressed, and tortured or killed if they dare to dissent, their actions in the pursuit of freedom are the authoritarian regime's fault, not their own. This because that system made it necessary for the oppressed to say, "Give me liberty or give me death." This is, what I tried to explain, without much success, maybe because I don't likes to use concrete IRL history parts as an example. Still true, that sometimes the passivity and the neutrality is the sin. An addition. In a wrong system everyone can be victim, and perhaps no one will do something against this. "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."– Martin Niemöller Easy to condemn anyone who try to do something against the oppression, if his/her methods are bloody, and so popular the role of the defender of "peace". But sometimes the peace no more just fear.
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