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Post by Natashina on Jan 8, 2017 5:33:02 GMT
As per request by PapaCharlie9 , I'm starting a thread to discuss the oddities with families in BioWare games. Papa, feel free to tweet this like you suggested. I'm putting stuff into spoiler tags to save on space. The Dead Parents/Estranged Family trope is a common one in fantasy games and I'm normally okay with it. However, it's become an overused and almost creepy trend in BioWare games. What's more is that at least one parent goes unnamed by the party members. You can look up their Codex and their parents might both have names. I always found that a little weird. I mean, they'll share the name of one parent and not the other. Or they are on bad terms with their living family. Let's take a look at the list. The MET is as bad, but I'll focus on Dragon Age for now. I'm going to try to stick to characters that mention their family. I am adding Circle Mage characters to the list. It doesn't mean that their parents are dead, but I haven't met a party member outside of Bethany that remained close to their family after joining the Circle. Also, Josie and Cullen do mention being on good terms with their family and their families are doing well. However, of course these aren't party members. DA:OHuman Warden: Both parents are named and happy. Of course, the player has to watch them get ready to die.
Dalish: Parents are both dead and unnamed.
City Elf: Mom's dead, and the cousin gets raped.
Dwarven Noble: Family betrays them, both parents are dead by the end.
Castless: Dad's not around and unnamed. Mom is a fall-down drunk and the little sister has to more or less go into prostitution.
Leliana--Dad's dead and unnamed. Mom and aunt are named and both dead.
Morrigan--Flemeth. Enough said there.
Sten--Qunari, so no traditional families.
Wynne--Triple whammy. Her family was afraid of her, she's a Circle mage and she has a son that didn't know about her until Asunder.
Alistair--Oh boy. Bastard son of a king, so dad was absent. He was lied to about his mother and literally treated like a dog by his uncle. The person he thought was his half-sister was a bitch. His half-brother is dead. As a bonus, his real mother is dead or exiled come DA:I. DA:A
Nathaniel--If recruited, ends up despising his dead father. His mother is dead as well, naturally.
Velanna--Alienated from her clan due to her grudge against humans. Sister is a ghoul and needs to be mercy killed. Becomes a Warden to boot.
Anders--Circle mage. DA:2
Holy crap this cast has some family issues. The entire party, in fact. Anders is included but I've already mentioned him. Hawke--Dad's dead, at least one of their siblings are dead and mom dies in the course of the game. The uncle is a creep.
Varric--Parents are dead and unnamed. His only brother goes mad and is either locked up or dead.
Fenris--Both parents are dead and unnamed. His own sister tries to bring him back into slavery.
Merrill--She's estranged from her adoptive mother and is on tense terms. Then you have to kill the Keeper.
Isabela--No mention of a father. Mom's alive, but tried to force her daughter into the Qun.
Sebastian--Dead parents and on poor terms with his living relatives.
Aveline--Laments about her father putting pressure on her due to her famous name. Both parents are dead, mom is unnamed. DA:IVarric has already been mentioned. The Inquisitor--Mostly okay except for the Dalish. Of course you can accidentally kill them off-screen via a text only quest. Seriously, that never fails to make my head hurt. Sera--An orphan who has bad memories of her adoptive mother. Naturally said mother is dead. Iron Bull--See Sten above. Vivenne--Circle mage. Judging from her Codex, she'd rather forget her roots. Cassandra--Both parents are dead, brother is dead, despises her uncle. Dorian--Both parents are alive until Trespasser, but he's on crappy terms with them prior to his personal quest. His mom remains unnamed even though she's still alive. I love BioWare games. It's pretty obvious, since I own several games and became a mod here. That aside, this trope has become a crutch. One that I'm personally sick of.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 8, 2017 7:25:53 GMT
Well, all your party members are adults in a pseudo-medieval setting filled with war, disease and monsters, so the chances of anyone's parents being dead are pretty good. (Even setting aside violent deaths, prior to modern medicine, the number of deaths by childbirth was ridiculously high.)
But in a more general sense, adventurers don't typically come from happy backgrounds. You have to think about the mindset of a person who thinks exploring dangerous old ruins and fighting all manner of loathsome beasts would be a fulfilling career choice. Either they're slightly insane or they were forced into this line of work by circumstance.
To illustrate my point: there's a Canadian-made sci-fi TV show called Dark Matter about a crew of mercenaries/space pirates. In one episode, a character (Five) is re-living the memories of the rest of the cast and decides to linger in one character's happy childhood on a farm. Another character convinces Five to leave by pointing out the memories would inevitably turn sour - maybe bandits raided the farm, maybe Dad returned home drunk one night and killed the mother, etc. Point is, they wouldn't be part of the crew if their life turned out happily.
(In case you're wondering, the character with the happy childhood ended up being kidnapped and raised by a thief who murdered his parents.)
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 8, 2017 7:36:19 GMT
Also, Fenris' mother is still alive, and while qunari don't have "parents," the tamrassan who raised the Iron Bull is alive and well.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 8, 2017 8:06:39 GMT
Well, all your party members are adults in a pseudo-medieval setting filled with war, disease and monsters, so the chances of anyone's parents being dead are pretty good. (Prior to modern medicine, the number of deaths by childbirth was ridiculously high). But in a more general sense, adventurers don't typically come from happy backgrounds. You have to think about the mindset of a person who thinks exploring dangerous old ruins and fighting all manner of loathsome beasts would be a fulfilling career choice. Either they're slightly insane or they were forced into this line of work. There's a Canadian-made sci-fi TV show called Dark Matter about a crew of mercenaries:space pirates. In one episode, a character is re-living the memories of the rest of the cast and decides to hang out in one character's happy childhood on a farm. Another character convinces her to leave by pointing out the memories will inevitably turn sour - bandits will raid the farm, or maybe Dad will return home drunk one night and kill the mother. Point is, they wouldn't be part of the crew if their life turned out happily. (In case you're wondering, the character with the happy childhood ended up being kidnapped and raised by a thief who murdered his parents.) For your first point, why would that be the case? If we are comparing to the middle ages, people who survived childhood could be expected to live to the mid-40's or mid-60's, depending on the source, with male LE being a few years longer than female (probably due to women dying in childbirth, I would think). A young adult could conceivably still have both parents alive and well, since people started reproducing young as well. Besides, there are plenty of "old" NPCs hanging around in DA, so I don't think it's a given that all these people's parents would have died already. As far as the adventurer lifestyle, the best modern parallel would probably be astronauts, since exploring old ruins usually isn't dangerous anymore. I don't think you could reasonably argue that astronauts in general are insane, nor were they forced into exploring space, and yet they come from a variety of backgrounds, plenty of them happy. Also, Fenris' mother is still alive, and while qunari don't have "parents," the tamrassan who raised the Iron Bull is alive and well. According to the game, Fenris's mother is dead.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 8, 2017 8:20:58 GMT
Wasn't the boon Fenris fought for freedom for his mother and sister?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 8, 2017 12:13:42 GMT
The boon was for his mother and sister but I think by the time he meets with Varania that his mother is dead. Yep, she says that things got much harder for her after her mother's death and gives that as an excuse for selling Fenris out to Denarius.
You forgot Zevran in DAO. We don't get the full story in the game but WoT2 states that his father was murdered by the Crows, his mother then forced into prostitution by them to pay off his debts, she died in childbirth and her child ended up being the property of the Crows. Zevran knows his father was a woodcutter and was given his mother's gloves, which allowed him to know she was Dalish, but that is about all.
Also Jowan's father hated him I believe.
And from DAI, don't forget that, in contradiction to everything we had previously been told about Dalish culture concerning the value they place in family, mages and protecting their children, Minaeve's clan/family dumped her in the wilds with simply a backpack to aid her survival when she was eight years old because she had exceeded the required number of mages per clan (3).
I think the general idea behind all these dysfunctional families and tragedy occurring even before you are born is that it makes for plenty of material to create "interesting" characters. Bearing in mind that children have all but disappeared from the setting, except by implication, portraying happy families doesn't really feature high on the agenda. I agree, though, it would make for a change to have a companion who had been on good relations with their family, has fond memories of them and may be their motivation in life is simply to try and make things better for them; may be they even have a spouse and children (so no they aren't interested in you and you can't romance them).
The lack of names for parents is probably just a resource thing; why spend time thinking up names for people that are going to be mentioned once or perhaps twice in the game. Besides which, people usually think of their parents and talk about them as mother or father rather than giving their actual name.
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Post by Merrill on Jan 8, 2017 12:43:50 GMT
Are you implying poor Flemeth is not a good mother? Didn't your mother never tried to posses your body and merged with an old elven god? Ugh what kind of childhood had you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 13:21:55 GMT
Don't see Finn on the list of party members who kept in touch and were on good terms with their parents. His mum gave him a fancy hat and I think both parents wrote to him regularly before he ran off to feed his addiction to tight leather. Wynne's biological family either died or abandoned her and her adoptive family was terrified of her. So the family relations are double bad for her. If Oghrens parents were still alive, they'd have gone with Branka's expedition. So if his parents were alive and on good terms with Oghren, his dad would be dead or a ghoul and his mom would be dead or a Broodmother. And that was probably the fate of all his aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews. No wonder he drinks.
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I'm a good person, but I don't practice it.
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Post by Domakir on Jan 8, 2017 13:41:44 GMT
Are you implying poor Flemeth is not a good mother? Didn't your mother never tried to posses your body and merged with an old elven god? Ugh what kind of childhood had you? Actually Flemeth never tried to possess Morrigan's body.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 8, 2017 13:50:43 GMT
And from DAI, don't forget that, in contradiction to everything we had previously been told about Dalish culture concerning the value they place in family, mages and protecting their children, Minaeve's clan/family dumped her in the wilds with simply a backpack to aid her survival when she was eight years old because she had exceeded the required number of mages per clan (3).
I think the general idea behind all these dysfunctional families and tragedy occurring even before you are born is that it makes for plenty of material to create "interesting" characters. Bearing in mind that children have all but disappeared from the setting, except by implication, portraying happy families doesn't really feature high on the agenda. I agree, though, it would make for a change to have a companion who had been on good relations with their family, has fond memories of them and may be their motivation in life is simply to try and make things better for them; may be they even have a spouse and children (so no they aren't interested in you and you can't romance them).
Ah, yes, the 'three mage' recton that contradicts not only Zathrian's clan in Origins having more than three mages, but also Merrill's explicit dialogue and her background that magic is "dying out" among the Dalish - hence, why she was moved over to Clan Sabrae as a young child. Yeah, even the Surana background is one where, despite the background being open to RP decision (like being able to choose where you were from or whether or not you remember what it was like growing up), you're separated from your family as a Circle mage. You're probably right about their reasoning as to why so many characters are from 'unhappy' families. A character who came from a happy family would likely be a change of pace, and put that much more at risk for him or her participating in such adventures with the rest of them.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 14:03:59 GMT
Wasn't the boon Fenris fought for freedom for his mother and sister? Yes, but Varania said, that their mother dead (if Fenris don't killed her, ofc.).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 14:08:55 GMT
Actually Femeth's not Morrigan's mother. We don't know, who's Morrigan's mother and father.
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Post by halla on Jan 8, 2017 16:42:48 GMT
I barely remember DA:O and DA II but in DA:I with Morrigan it is said that she got bad idea of what her 'mother' wants to do with her. Flemeth explains, and, well... Even the story with mirror from Morrigan, look at it how it changed her. I guess this is what makes our companions and characters special in some way. Who would have been our Inquisitor if the Keeper didn't looked at Chantry and send the elf to spy? I guess with human Inquisitor there is something that pushes the person to join and fight. Just point on the story to explain some of the motives if "lost of family" or "bad memory". DA:O, I guess it all was nicely explained with the character you play at the beginning? And who would be Oghren if he didn't drink and lost family, some happy dwarf hard working or forever riot in his soul... So in my opinion, it is way to give a shape for character, to give some "life" in it. When you have sketch it is easier to see how it will look like, reshape it a little adding some stuff... and you have story. Tragic, but it makes them go on. I can't imagine Zevran being who he is if he was happily raised with scared on his neck of his mother or father as assassin. Leliana would be someone else, mostly sister in Chantry. And well, everyone got imagination and can make whole life of characters however they want.
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Post by PCthug on Jan 8, 2017 17:13:05 GMT
To steal the words of Tolstoy: "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
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Post by shechinah on Jan 8, 2017 17:16:23 GMT
Actually Femeth's not Morrigan's mother. We don't know, who's Morrigan's mother and father. I don't think we ever had evidence that showed or indicated that Flemeth was not Morrigan's biological mother? Flemeth may be an old woman in appearance but she's a magical old woman who was apparently still doing the dirty from time to time according to Morrigan's banter if I recall correctly.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 8, 2017 17:21:35 GMT
Don't see Finn on the list of party members who kept in touch and were on good terms with their parents. His mum gave him a fancy hat and I think both parents wrote to him regularly before he ran off to feed his addiction to tight leather. I always found that bit adorable and I even think I had him wear it probably for that reason.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 17:26:36 GMT
Actually Femeth's not Morrigan's mother. We don't know, who's Morrigan's mother and father. I don't think we ever had evidence that showed or indicated that Flemeth was not Morrigan's biological mother? Flemeth may be an old woman in appearance but she's a magical old woman who was apparently still doing the dirty from time to time according to Morrigan. Flemeth told to Hawke. "I'm not sure, whether she's your daughter or your enemy." "Neither is she."And Morrigan also said in DAO. Perhaps not directly, but somehow I never thought, that Morrigan's Flemeth biological daughter. Not because Flemeth seems old.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 8, 2017 17:30:17 GMT
I wouldn't say Cassandra despises her uncle? At worst, I'd say that they don't see eye to eye on things including during her upbringing and don't talk much due to their respective workload and the physical distance. If I call correctly, Vestalus sends letters to Cassandra as mentioned in a conversation with her or someone else.
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Post by Gilli on Jan 8, 2017 17:37:38 GMT
I wouldn't say Cassandra despises her uncle? At worst, I'd say that they don't see eye to eye on things including during her upbringing and don't talk much due to their respective workload and the physical distance. If I call correctly, Vestalus sends letters to Cassandra as mentioned in a conversation with her or someone else. It's in a banter between her an Cole Cole: Your uncle misses you, Cassandra. Cassandra: Picked that up from my head, did you? Cole: No, he wrote you a letter. There was pain on the page. Cassandra: Stop going into my quarters. How many times must I tell you?
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Post by shechinah on Jan 8, 2017 17:39:20 GMT
I don't think we ever had evidence that showed or indicated that Flemeth was not Morrigan's biological mother? Flemeth may be an old woman in appearance but she's a magical old woman who was apparently still doing the dirty from time to time according to Morrigan. Flemeth told to Hawke. "I'm not sure, whether she's your daughter or your enemy." "Neither is she."And Morrigan also said in DAO. Perhaps not directly, but somehow I never thought, that Morrigan's Flemeth biological daughter. Not because Flemeth seems old. I'd have to disagree about that serving as confirmation. Note that Flemeth's response is specifically: "Neither is she" meaning Morrigan is not sure whether she's Flemeth's daughter or her enemy. That does not mean that Flemeth is not Morrigan's biological mother, merely that Morrigan is not sure that she is. I believe this is the same case for Morrigan's dialogue about it in Origins.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 8, 2017 18:00:00 GMT
I think whether or not Flemeth is Morrigan's biological mother is splitting hairs. She raised her, and Morrigan considers Flemeth her mother.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 8, 2017 18:20:44 GMT
Three things.
One, I think part of it is just convenience - aren't your parents worried about you? Don't you write to your ailing sister? Nope, they're dead! Our companions aren't single parents because kids get in the way of adventuring, they don't have parents to support because parents get in the way of adventuring, etc.
Two, having characters be sad and alone means that they can build a "new" family with the rest of the game's cast. The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, and all that.
And three, tied in with two, is drama llama ding dong. 'My parents are happily married retirees,' isn't as easy to twist into drama!!1 as "MY FATHER WAS THE VILLAIN ALL ALONG AUURGH."
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jan 8, 2017 18:32:59 GMT
Just look how horrible things start out in The Stolen Throne. Then things go down from there.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 8, 2017 18:50:56 GMT
Also Dorian's mother is named in WoT2 (Aquinea Thalrassian), just not in the game proper.
Seb lost his two(?) brothers, as well. And even Hawke's surviving sibling can die. Oghren himself becomes a deadbeat dad by the time Awakening rolls around.
Actually, I think it'd be easier to name the "happy" family relationships. Let's see... if Gamlen reunites with Charade, they're alright. A casteless Warden who puts Bhelen on the throne maintains a rock-solid relationship with Rica and presumably their nephew (mom's still horrible, though). Cousland still has Fergus, Mahariel's screwed if you kill their clan in DA2, Tabris can save their dad from slavery but depending on the epilogue slide Shianni might be murdered in addition to the brutality she suffered, and Hawke and the surviving sibling are still on pretty good terms if Legacy and DAI are anything to go by. Josephine's family is alive and well and she cares very deeply for them. Cullen's family is alive and well and he seems to be especially close to Mia.
If Morrigan drinks from the Well, that complicates matters for a Warden who wanted a white-picket-fence happy family with her. And Kieran can potentially be Hawke's... second cousin? Or Anora's half-brother. Or the half-brother of a male Aeducan's other son. Or Fiona's grandson. So those are other family threads.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 8, 2017 21:00:34 GMT
Dorian's mother is named in World of Thedas Vol. 2. I'd have to look it up in my copy... but she's there. Flemeth told to Hawke. "I'm not sure, whether she's your daughter or your enemy." "Neither is she."And Morrigan also said in DAO. Perhaps not directly, but somehow I never thought, that Morrigan's Flemeth biological daughter. Not because Flemeth seems old. I'd have to disagree about that serving as confirmation. Note that Flemeth's response is specifically: "Neither is she" meaning Morrigan is not sure whether she's Flemeth's daughter or her enemy. That does not mean that Flemeth is not Morrigan's biological mother, merely that Morrigan is not sure that she is. I believe this is the same case for Morrigan's dialogue about it in Origins.
I agree here.
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