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flyingsquirrel
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flyingsquirrel
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 9, 2017 16:37:40 GMT
TW3 is more carefully crafted than Mass Effect or Dragon Age, I'd say. The quests that Geralt has to complete and the people he encounters along the way are less predictable and more complex, and there are fewer WTF moments. Though it does leave one big plot thread hanging about the fate of the Lodge of Sorceresses, at least in my playthrough, and the choice between Triss and Yennefer doesn't really work since you'll likely end up spending much more time with of one of them - and having to choose what to do about the relationship - before even seeing much of the other. It also does a better job of mixing sidequests with the main storyline. You aren't confronted with a "big bad" that requires "saving the world" right off the bat, other life-and-death situations besides Ciri's disappearance pop up regularly, and Geralt doesn't have the sort of influence that Bioware protagonists usually do, so a slower pace makes sense.
Mass Effect is still more fun and rewarding for me, because I'm more of a science fiction person than a sword-and-sorcery fantasy person. And despite the lopsided dependence on Shepard's words and actions, I can play Shepard a little more closely to my ideal sort of character than I can with Geralt. Dragon Age has never really been one of my big favorites. I enjoyed DA:O and DA2 quite a bit, and there were parts of DA:I that were good, but it took up far too much time with fetch quests and repetitive open-world combat.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 9, 2017 18:59:40 GMT
DA I did better then the Witcher: Sense of Setting. Sense of history. I disagree strongly with these two, or at least the first one. DAI's idea of stablishing a setting is basically one: written codex entries. Everywhere you go there is multiple texts detailing what you're seeing and what is happening. If the texts matched what was shown, I would just say they are unnecesssary and inelegant, but the whole thing becomes problematic when the texts do no match what is shown. The templars/mage war in the Hinterlands, for example: you have multiple codex entries saying how atrocities are being commited, and how terrible it is, and how people are suffering. Do you see that? Not really. For us, that conflict is a few fetch quests and some enemies in the map. Not to mention, some of these codex are really badly written and make little sense (writing a journal entry when the house around you is burning is not the best of ideas). Val Royeaux is the same, only worse. It's a lifeless and simple looking city. But you cannot walk 5 meters without finding a codex entry saying how the generic place you just saw is unique and glorious and full of life. Novigrad in TW3 on the other hand wasn't a big city because you read it was, but because you could see it. It wasn't a city full of violence and turmoil because you read it, but because you could experience that first hand. And so on. And I disagree with you, strongly. (Though I do agree with Novigrad, keep in mind in my original comment I said I LOVED both games, more on that later.) But honestly I have to wonder if anyone who can, seriously make the claim that 'All DAI's story was told through codex entries' and 'the Side quests were nothing but a pile of Fetch Quests' even played the game. The events outlined in DA I were horrible, it just did not spoonfeed you the horror like the Witcher 3 did. (yes, I loved the fact that everything in Witcher was more cinematic you could probably add that to things Witcher did better, but at times it felt a little gratitious 'oh look at me I am dark and mature', herk). Anyways though in DA I you had 1 quest dealing with the horror of the mage Templar War (that I can remember off the top of my head). A whole zone dedicated to the horror of the Orlesian Civil War. You had at least 2 quests dealing with major elements of history of some of the major groups of Thedas. And probably more depending on how you think of such things. You had two main plot quests dealing with the mage Templar War. One dealing with the Orlesian Civil War. And one showing a sense of Elven history like nothing we have ever seen before. Meanwhile you had body horror, you had corpse strewn battlefields, torture chambers, skulls piles up very, very, very deep in places, and you had entire regions on fire due to the wars sweeping through them. Sure you sometimes had to read a codex entry to understand the context of what you were looking at but the stuff was still there and you often had to read codex entry equilvalents in the Witcher 3 to understand the events you were partaking in. And if we were to hold Witcher 3 to the same standard then it really is not that much better. Consider: The big bad for the entire game, we were told how evil they were time and again, we read journal entires in the Witcher 2, we saw flash backs here and there. But we did not get to see it for ourselves. No development. No real sense of threat or evil just 'there's this guy here lets go kill him'. Now yes because of Novigrad Witcher 3 and DA I is very close, at least in the sense of setting department, as it is with most of these aspects, the games are veeerrrryyy close when it comes to quality. So much so that I often change my mind between the two of them and what should count and what shouldn't. For instance, the combat, constantly waffling back and forth between DA I or Witcher having the better combat system.
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Post by xetykins on Jan 9, 2017 20:28:59 GMT
it just did not spoonfeed you the horror like the Witcher 3 did. What? Did we play the same game? Because I absolutely had no idea 90% of the time of what the heck is going on on the quests until I did the entire questlines. THEN my beastiary/journal gets updated. Yes questlines on even a simple side quest. Unless ofc you already know the entire story half way of say.. the pan lady and already know why that man was killed and umm already know who that half burned msg was from (which by the way you'll meet much later in the game). Or what really would happen when Cerys asks you to wait and just trust her. Or the two completely different endings of Tower full of mice. You wont even see the whole of the game unless you replay all including those simple side quests. If so, then I tip my hat to you because a lot of the quests you wont even know the outcome til hours later. I have played and replayed these 3 series countless times and I say TW3 is a league on its own but because I am a shameless fangirl,I will put the whole ME series and DAO up there too because I can. Oh and by the way, the big bad in TW3 is really not Geralt's main mission unlike cory in DAI, but to find and try to protect Ciri. And the girl even hardly needs protecting. The wild hunt just happened to be on the way. Hell even the story is not even about you.
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SofNascimento
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Aug 27, 2016 13:51:04 GMT
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sofnascimento
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 9, 2017 21:41:25 GMT
I disagree strongly with these two, or at least the first one. DAI's idea of stablishing a setting is basically one: written codex entries. Everywhere you go there is multiple texts detailing what you're seeing and what is happening. If the texts matched what was shown, I would just say they are unnecesssary and inelegant, but the whole thing becomes problematic when the texts do no match what is shown. The templars/mage war in the Hinterlands, for example: you have multiple codex entries saying how atrocities are being commited, and how terrible it is, and how people are suffering. Do you see that? Not really. For us, that conflict is a few fetch quests and some enemies in the map. Not to mention, some of these codex are really badly written and make little sense (writing a journal entry when the house around you is burning is not the best of ideas). Val Royeaux is the same, only worse. It's a lifeless and simple looking city. But you cannot walk 5 meters without finding a codex entry saying how the generic place you just saw is unique and glorious and full of life. Novigrad in TW3 on the other hand wasn't a big city because you read it was, but because you could see it. It wasn't a city full of violence and turmoil because you read it, but because you could experience that first hand. And so on. And I disagree with you, strongly. (Though I do agree with Novigrad, keep in mind in my original comment I said I LOVED both games, more on that later.) But honestly I have to wonder if anyone who can, seriously make the claim that 'All DAI's story was told through codex entries' and 'the Side quests were nothing but a pile of Fetch Quests' even played the game. The events outlined in DA I were horrible, it just did not spoonfeed you the horror like the Witcher 3 did. (yes, I loved the fact that everything in Witcher was more cinematic you could probably add that to things Witcher did better, but at times it felt a little gratitious 'oh look at me I am dark and mature', herk). Anyways though in DA I you had 1 quest dealing with the horror of the mage Templar War (that I can remember off the top of my head). A whole zone dedicated to the horror of the Orlesian Civil War. You had at least 2 quests dealing with major elements of history of some of the major groups of Thedas. And probably more depending on how you think of such things. You had two main plot quests dealing with the mage Templar War. One dealing with the Orlesian Civil War. And one showing a sense of Elven history like nothing we have ever seen before. Meanwhile you had body horror, you had corpse strewn battlefields, torture chambers, skulls piles up very, very, very deep in places, and you had entire regions on fire due to the wars sweeping through them. Sure you sometimes had to read a codex entry to understand the context of what you were looking at but the stuff was still there and you often had to read codex entry equilvalents in the Witcher 3 to understand the events you were partaking in. The thing is, take the Orlesian Civil War zone. What is it? It's just a bunch of trenches, siege weapons here and there and enemies to fight. For me, that's not showing the war through the setting, it is failing to do so. I mean, it would work if the codex entries did not let you believe that the war going on was more complex and more terrible, but it does. That's why DAI setting doesn't work a lot. The codex entries try to sell you one thing, while the "physical world" another (a very cartonish and simple one). Let's remember a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... and that is utterly wrong. Another silly example? Knights and spearman. Those would probably be the two most common site in a Medieval warzone. We never see neither in DAI. Even though they are mentioned in the codex.
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helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
Posts: 1,853 Likes: 2,478
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Apr 13, 2024 10:39:49 GMT
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helios969
Kamisama
1,853
August 2016
helios969
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Jan 9, 2017 22:04:42 GMT
Well the problem as I see it is one of fandom. People confuse preferences with what is objectively better. If the sole reason for loving DA/ME over TW3 is because one gives you your same sex romance option and the other doesn't, that probably fits into the preference category. If I'm going by my preference Mass Effect wins hands down...over anything. But if I'm going to be objective and look at the entirety of the game I have to give it to TW3...by a large margin. CDPR managed to take something I absolutely despise, the "open-world," and somehow make it engaging...whereas Bioware's first attempt at the open-world was a huge liability and significantly diminishes what is generally a pretty good game. I might put ME3 closer to TW3 if not for that abomination they call an ending. ME2 and DAO are Bioware's last great gaming achievements that still manage to satisfy despite showing age. I'd love MEA to turn around and raise the pot and pressure CDPR to elevate their game further. That kind of competition is good for the industry...and great for us gamers.
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September 2016
animalboy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Duke Cameron on Jan 9, 2017 22:39:22 GMT
Never played The Witcher.
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822
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Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 10, 2017 0:46:51 GMT
For me, both DA and ME would win every time, in spite of all of their flaws. I'm too invested in the world and the characters each franchise has established to pick The Witcher over either of them, and after actually spending some time with Geralt, I'm certain that this will never change. Geralt isn't a bad character, but I don't find myself becoming attached to him either. That being said, it's clear which game wins on a technical level. The open world is richer, more detailed and more dangerous. NPC's are more reactive. The animation is superior. While I'm not totally into the combat mechanics, there's more weight and lacks that arcade-y feel. Dragon Age could take some pointers on how to do its basic sword & board gameplay and even how to wield magic. I don't want it to ape TW entirely, but I'd love to see DA's rogue in action in a fashion similar to this.
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Draining Dragon
N4
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Draining Dragon
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 2,178 Likes: 7,575
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7,575
Draining Dragon
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
2,178
August 2016
drainingdragon
Draining Dragon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 10, 2017 0:50:35 GMT
The answer is, of course, Jade Empire.
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 10, 2017 0:51:52 GMT
The answer is, of course, Jade Empire. While the heat death of the universe will occur before a new Jade Empire comes out, but I really want one to come out.
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DalishRanger
N2
Avatar change!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 161 Likes: 326
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DalishRanger
Avatar change!
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November 2016
dalishranger
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by DalishRanger on Jan 10, 2017 1:14:24 GMT
The answer is, of course, Jade Empire. While the heat death of the universe will occur before a new Jade Empire comes out, but I really want one to come out. I'm still upset JE won't work properly on my current computer because my graphics card doesn't play nice with it. None of the fixes I tried kept it from making the framerate shuttering constantly and rendering unplayable. The only reason I haven't replayed it in a few years is because of that. Meanwhile it runs smooth as butter on my husband's near identical setup with a very slightly different graphics model. I really need to hijack his PC one of these weekends and take advantage of that.
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0
1
7,463
Cyonan
2,189
Jul 31, 2016 20:55:30 GMT
July 2016
admin
Cyonan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Cyonan
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Post by Cyonan on Jan 10, 2017 7:08:49 GMT
After you've witnessed the glory that is Geralt's hair in 4k resolution at max settings, there's just no going back.
The other games are still good of course, but they don't have nearly as epic of hair or beards.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 13,331 Likes: 30,906
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30,906
Fen'Harel Faceman
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
13,331
August 2016
almostfaceman
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jan 10, 2017 7:12:13 GMT
Simply put, the Witcher 3 is a superior game to DAI. Besides the difference in gameplay and character customization the Witcher 3 hands-down destroys every single aspect of every dragon age game though I still hold DAO dear to my heart. The Witcher 3 is a western AAA RPG done right. Bioware needs to take note. Cinematic conversations with your personal input was neglected by Bioware in ME3 save for the most important plot oriented parts of the game. In contrast, tw3 had Geralt shooting the shit with an old lady complaining about wolves stealing her chickens, one insignificant side quest had more cinematic dialogue/conversation scenes than every mass Effect 3 or DAI side quest. I want MEA to have cinematic conversations like TW3 and the previous me titles. There are some things it did really well and some things it failed miserably. First, it suffered from the same thing that a lot of RPG suffer from - side quests that pull away from the urgency of the main plot. Picking up witcher jobs doesn't really serve his mission to find Ciri - for which he'll be richly rewarded for financially and for which he's extremely emotionally invested in finding her safe and sound and protecting her from the bad guys. So, while interesting (to a point) the witcher jobs take a person out of the main plot. Second, the romances were taken out of our control. For anyone who was romancing Triss (from Witcher 2), we were forced to break up with her. Then the romance content didn't stay consistent, dropping off at points in the story where it felt like you'd get the most support or interaction from someone you're in a relationship with - like after Geralt's mentor is killed. There is zero discussion or scenes of commiseration or even going over how a Witcher emotionally processes such things differently than a regular person. What made the faults stand out, ironically, were the moments where the relationships were handled very, very well. Third, the big bad was shuffled off to mere afterthought and should have been integrated into the story as a part of the story and as a constant threat. Fourth, they crammed a lot into the game and that, for me, hurt the pacing and the evenness of the quality. Gwent, treasure hunts, "clearing" areas for peasants, while neat, dragged at the main impetus of the game - finding Ciri. Fifth, cut scenes for cut scenes sake aren't "better" or "worse". If a game can get across part of the story in a variety of interesting ways, I don't have a problem with that. The cut scenes, with the Witcher, got a little old and slowed down the pace of the game. This is not an exhaustive list of my problems with the game and I don't want to say it was a bad game - it wasn't. I really liked the game and I really liked Witcher 2. But it was missing something that Inquistion at least attempted to address - though it didn't do so flawlessly. Inquisition brought different perspectives to the story with the different races. I found that made the game more re-playable than Witcher. Especially with the story of the elves. If Bioware improves that for the next game, they'll be miles ahead of the Witcher series. As much as I like Geralt, he's always Geralt. With Inquistion, I look at things as a Vashoth or a Dwarf or a Human or Elf. Inquisition had many of the same flaws as Witcher 3 and despite them I really enjoyed the game. I really enjoyed them both. Inquisition was really good Strawberry Cheesecake ice-cream and Witcher was really good rainbow sherbet. One doesn't negate the other and thus one can be a fan of both without really knocking the other.
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Sept 22, 2017 23:01:09 GMT
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Rendering planets viable since 2017
6,272
August 2016
serza
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Serza on Jan 10, 2017 16:23:54 GMT
The answer is, of course, Jade Empire. KOTOR, naturally, you filthy heretic!
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Draining Dragon
N4
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Draining Dragon
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 2,178 Likes: 7,575
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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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0
7,575
Draining Dragon
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
2,178
August 2016
drainingdragon
Draining Dragon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 10, 2017 16:28:58 GMT
The answer is, of course, Jade Empire. KOTOR, naturally, you filthy heretic! KOTOR was exquisite and easily on par with (if not better than) the original Star Wars movies in terms of its writing, but the combat was a bit weak. I just loaded up my dual-saber Jedi Guardian with Power Attack and Force Speed and carved through everything. Jade Empire's combat was more satisfying (even if I had to kite the fuck out of those Elephant Demons) and the overall writing (*cough* Sun Li *cough*) was better. It was also an original IP, so bonus points for that.
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638
0
Sept 22, 2017 23:01:09 GMT
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Serza
Rendering planets viable since 2017
6,272
August 2016
serza
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Serza on Jan 10, 2017 16:36:06 GMT
KOTOR, naturally, you filthy heretic! KOTOR was exquisite and easily on par with (if not better than) the original Star Wars movies in terms of its writing, but the combat was a bit weak. I just loaded up my dual-saber Jedi Guardian with Power Attack and Force Speed and carved through everything. Jade Empire's combat was more satisfying (even if I had to kite the fuck out of those Elephant Demons) and the overall writing (*cough* Sun Li *cough*) was better. It was also an original IP, so bonus points for that. I'll just admit I never played Jade Empire, despite the fact it was On The House that one time. I do like KOTOR, though, even if you're right about combat. It's simple AF once you get to understand it.
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Draining Dragon
N4
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Draining Dragon
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 2,178 Likes: 7,575
inherit
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
2
0
7,575
Draining Dragon
You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
2,178
August 2016
drainingdragon
Draining Dragon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 10, 2017 16:41:27 GMT
KOTOR was exquisite and easily on par with (if not better than) the original Star Wars movies in terms of its writing, but the combat was a bit weak. I just loaded up my dual-saber Jedi Guardian with Power Attack and Force Speed and carved through everything. Jade Empire's combat was more satisfying (even if I had to kite the fuck out of those Elephant Demons) and the overall writing (*cough* Sun Li *cough*) was better. It was also an original IP, so bonus points for that. I'll just admit I never played Jade Empire, despite the fact it was On The House that one time. I do like KOTOR, though, even if you're right about combat. It's simple AF once you get to understand it. You should try it. As much as I love KOTOR, I find Jade Empire to be slightly better for the reasons I listed above.
Shame that SWTOR just switched to the generic MMO combat... if they were going to give it a combat system different from KOTOR, I would have loved to play as a Jedi in the Jade Empire combat system: flipping over enemies, switching between lightsaber forms and force powers, channeling force power to heal instead of using chi... you can technically do those things, but it doesn't flow at all. It's just button mashing.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,650
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Agent 46
177
0
6,650
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 10, 2017 17:30:34 GMT
I replayed Jade Empire just last year, and very few minor slip-ups aside (a thug saying "Wait a sec" in a Wuxia setting felt kinda out of place), the writing and characters are very enjoyable.
Also, know your styles and you never need to fear a thing! I switched between Storm Dragon, Spirit Thief and whatever style was best to kick the crap out of my current enemies, and it was mostly smooth sailing.
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Verro
"Ha ha ha ha ha! Did I hurt you?"
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verro
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Verro on Jan 10, 2017 20:06:50 GMT
Well one game is clearly superior. Its Jade Empire if you were wondering.
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flyingsquirrel
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flyingsquirrel
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 10, 2017 20:26:28 GMT
That's why DAI setting doesn't work a lot. The codex entries try to sell you one thing, while the "physical world" another (a very cartonish and simple one). Let's remember a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... and that is utterly wrong. Another silly example? Knights and spearman. Those would probably be the two most common site in a Medieval warzone. We never see neither in DAI. Even though they are mentioned in the codex. Yeah, big-budget games really have no excuse for relying on finding notes and codex entries to tell a story at this point, IMO. I remember the comparison I made at the time was that if Jack's loyalty mission from ME2 had been a DA:I sidequest, it would have involved three times as many battles with the Blood Pack, Aresh would have been a boss fight enemy instead of somebody you could talk to, and then you'd have found a note explaining what he was doing after he died. It was almost as if Bioware took the criticism about recycled environments in DA2 a little *too* seriously. "Oh yeah? Well now we're going to make a mega-super-duper-huge open world with absolutely no recycled environments ever! It'll be so huge that even a sidequest with two lines of dialogue will take an hour to finish, because MORE AND BIGGER!!!!"
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∯ Alien Wizard
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0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
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Ieldra
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August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 10, 2017 20:33:24 GMT
Many people when they bring up TW3 in a discussion about Andromeda is not to say TW3 is better than this or that, but to highlight some of that game qualities that Bioware should take notice. Mainly graphics and world building. Because the rest Bioware, one time of the other, have done just as well or better. I disagree. I used to think that characters are Bioware's strength. I don't think so anymore after having played TW3. Even minor NPCs often came across as much more natural and real than most of Bioware's characters. Bioware's characters often suffer from feeling more like incarnations of types rather than real people - less so in DAI than elsewhere, but you still notice it. I think Bioware's games suffer from the need to have a team of similarly-ranked companions (in term of presence) rather than characters who appear naturally at different points in the story and have different kinds of presence. The same applies to storytelling: with Bioware, I often see collections of themes torturously crammed together in a story that can't hold them all without feeling artificial, while TW3 isn't as focused on getting certain themes across and does all the better for it. Both characters and story feel signficantly more natural in TW3. Also, there's *way* less moralizing (both explicit and implicit) than in Bioware's latest games. It was such a relief to play a game that doesn't attempt to be educational. TW3's goods and evils speak for themselves, you aren't hit on the head with them. In comparison, I'd say Bioware's games since DA2 tend to have too much ideology and too little simple storytelling, too much forced allegory instead of applicability that gives the player more freedom of reception. As for ME in particular, Shepard is a less defined protagonist than Geralt, but still I had to fight the writers at every step in the MET, so much so that I almost came to hate Shepard in ME3. I certainly won't play a game where I must suspect to have the same kind of protagonist again - a moron with an action-hero shtick who only speaks in generalities. Geralt is more defined, but playing him feels much more natural (yet again). I don't like all of his traits, but first and foremost, he's not stupid and he's perceptive, which is important on its own but also has the side effect that the story elements must make sense, else Geralt wouldn't be able to talk about them intelligently - take two or three of the more complicated Witcher contracts and watch Geralt express more intelligence than Shepard expresses in the whole MET. Where I don't like a canonical trait, it's minor, and so I am more inclined to overlook those instances. Also, TW3 doesn't attempt to deceive me by telling me I have great freedom to shape my protagonist and then forcing something thoroughly unpalatable down my throat. These are only a few of the aspects which inform my opinion that TW3 is superior to all Bioware games of the current generation, which means the whole MET and DA2 and DAI. DAO can't be compared so well because it doesn't have a voiced protagonist, but it has one thing in common with TW3: its characters felt way more natural than any characters Bioware has created since. I would like to tell Bioware this: be less formulaic. Don't pay so much attention to themes and types. Think about the story and the characters that would make it great without restrictions of perceived balance. Solas in DAI was great not because he was such a compelling character on his own (though he was interesting enough), but because he had a role in the story that felt natural (that word again, pay attention to it, I repeat it intentionally). Also, be less generic (Casey Hudson called that "high-level") and more specific (more detail, less drama with no sufficient grounding, that will make characters more real among other things), and for gods' sake, don't moralize so much. That really gets tiresome. Let your story's good and bad speak for itself.
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Post by Serza on Jan 10, 2017 21:51:09 GMT
KOTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR
*screams lungs out*
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 10:21:43 GMT
And I disagree with you, strongly. (Though I do agree with Novigrad, keep in mind in my original comment I said I LOVED both games, more on that later.) But honestly I have to wonder if anyone who can, seriously make the claim that 'All DAI's story was told through codex entries' and 'the Side quests were nothing but a pile of Fetch Quests' even played the game. The events outlined in DA I were horrible, it just did not spoonfeed you the horror like the Witcher 3 did. (yes, I loved the fact that everything in Witcher was more cinematic you could probably add that to things Witcher did better, but at times it felt a little gratitious 'oh look at me I am dark and mature', herk). Anyways though in DA I you had 1 quest dealing with the horror of the mage Templar War (that I can remember off the top of my head). A whole zone dedicated to the horror of the Orlesian Civil War. You had at least 2 quests dealing with major elements of history of some of the major groups of Thedas. And probably more depending on how you think of such things. You had two main plot quests dealing with the mage Templar War. One dealing with the Orlesian Civil War. And one showing a sense of Elven history like nothing we have ever seen before. Meanwhile you had body horror, you had corpse strewn battlefields, torture chambers, skulls piles up very, very, very deep in places, and you had entire regions on fire due to the wars sweeping through them. Sure you sometimes had to read a codex entry to understand the context of what you were looking at but the stuff was still there and you often had to read codex entry equilvalents in the Witcher 3 to understand the events you were partaking in. The thing is, take the Orlesian Civil War zone. What is it? It's just a bunch of trenches, siege weapons here and there and enemies to fight. For me, that's not showing the war through the setting, it is failing to do so. I mean, it would work if the codex entries did not let you believe that the war going on was more complex and more terrible, but it does. That's why DAI setting doesn't work a lot. The codex entries try to sell you one thing, while the "physical world" another (a very cartonish and simple one). Let's remember a DAI developer said it was like Game of Thrones... and that is utterly wrong. Another silly example? Knights and spearman. Those would probably be the two most common site in a Medieval warzone. We never see neither in DAI. Even though they are mentioned in the codex. Agreed. This is why BioWare fucked up the open world gig -- look at DAO and it's recycled environments. You'd spend about five minutes in some small area to do a quest on the chantry board and in no way did battles tied with those quests feel realistic. They copy and pasted that formula and just placed it in an open world. To pull "open world" off, you need to put a bit more effort into it imo. Granted, TW3 wasn't perfect in that regard either but still a vast improvement on DAI. Let's face it -- a lot of us probably went all "TL;DR" whenever we unlocked a new codex entry in DAI that would tell the story of this battle was occurring in this region, etc. There wasn't much that really compelled people to immerse (drink up, folks!) themselves. There's a reason that power mining glitch was so popular and why so many people were pissed when they fixed it
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Post by danielhungary on Jan 11, 2017 10:55:18 GMT
There is a difference between which one is superior and between which one we do love better and play most, right ?
Technically TW3 is way superior to DA and ME both, i might even risk that TW3 is the best looking video game to date excluding The Last of Us and Uncharted 4 of course.
But for me TW3 was a one 160h run on deathmarch. The fight was easy and simple, and i can control only 2 characters. I hope not TW3's gameplay will going to be the RPG standard in this generation.
I like more creating my own character who is a nobody and fighting her/him to the TOP.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 11, 2017 13:32:09 GMT
I believe you make fair points, so let's divide in parts: Geralt x Shepard: I understand what you mean. Geralt can feel a more organic character and often can feel more "in tune" with the story. The problems Shepard have are also accurate, but I believe you're missing half of it. There is a trade off here, these problems Shepard have are a consequence of giving the player much more freedom in defining what kind of character Shepard should be, how he or she should respond to situations. I'll consider only ME2 here, which I believe is the only Mass Effect game that is better than TW3. It hit a very good spot between making Shepard feel like a real character and make it feel like your real character. I remember playing TW2, there is an auto-dialogue from Geralt that I believe illustrates all this qualities you gave him in your analysis. He gives a small speech about the policial situation of the elfs and the reasons for their suffering and what makes them be what they are (or something like that). It was well written and made Geralt feel smart and, as you put in, insightful. One could argue you don't have that in Mass Effect, but you have! Pick Tali's loyalty mission, the speech you can give to the admirals to convince them to let Tali walk is awesome, and shows a smart and insightful side of Shepard. But it's more than that. It shows all those qualities for your Shepard. There is a connection between player and character that The Witcher doesn't have. It wasn't just a speech, it was a very well written speeh that perfectly illustrates the view Shepard (and the player) created by the time he/she spent with the Quarians and with Tali. Sure it can lead to some frustration (especially in ME3) but I felt that in ME2 there were many times I felt that I was carving Shepard to be the chracter I wanted. Many dialogues, many interrupts, many situations let me to, by the end of the game, feel like this was an adventure that I truly was part of. And that Shepard was more than just a character, it was my character. Could he be a more defined character? Sure. Would that make it better? No, as ME3 showed us. So it's less about this or that and more about how you excecute your view. I believe ME2 did that better than TW3 did. Bioware games more formulatic structure: Same thing here. I don't think you're wrong, but I think you're missing the qualities of that formula. Simply put, it works very well. Sure you lose some stuff as you mentioned, but you gain a connection to the chracters that The Witcher games do not have. You can say that the missions you spent with Yennefer or Triss are better for those characters and your relationship witht them than having Miranda and Jacob with you in a mission. And that is 100% true. TW3's characters will have more presence, will have more dialogue, etc. But that's what, 1 hour in a 100 hour game? Maybe 2 hours for some of the characters? As opposed to have a squadmate by yourside almost the whole game in Bioware games? Obviously there will be differences. But let's compare the loyaly missions from ME2 to those "side character focused missions from The Witcher". And then I would say that not only it is just as good as TW, but it can be better. Mordin's loayalty was incredible because of how connect he was, how we could see how he thinks (and shape how our Shepard thinks) and so on. He was at least as present and as meaningful as any The Witcher's chracter in their missions. And you could say it wasn't their missions in The Witcher, but they were only an organic part of a story. And that's true. But I believe in ME2 the mission structure did not hurt the story, they felt right and connected to the world at large. Mordin's with the Genophage, Legion's with the Geth, Tali's with the quarians... of course, some are better than others, just like any game. Anyway, by the end I cared much more for many of the chracters in ME2 than I did for TW3's. I felt they were part of the whole adventure, and not only some parts of it. So in the end those are two different approaches (again!), one is not inherently better thant he other, and so we have to be careful in comparing them lest we say a fish is a bad fish because it can't fly. Bioware games being moralizing: I don't have a strong opinion here. Sure there were parts of recent Bioware games that felt a bit like that, like they were trying to sell you their agenda, but it's only small segments of the game, and not something that is present throughout the adventure. And you could equally say TW tries to hard to be "gray". There were a few quests that I felt they were trying to hard to show the players how in their games bad things would happen, and how not everything is what it seems. I believe both are small flaws however. T he Witcher character feeling more real: This is probably the only one that I plainly disagree (at least considering only Mass Effect). I did not see that at all. Especially with smaller characters that are not connected to Geralt. I believe in both franchises a character would feel real, well written and do his or her part well so the quest can progress. So do I agree that Bioware games should be less formulatic? Not really. Because the structure of Bioware games: get a party and do missions work very well and give unique strengths to their games that a more linear story like TW3 (especially concerning side characters) do not have. But that's not to say they don't have to change. They have to keep trying to improve their formula, trying to find new ways to make it work better and better. Bioware can (indeed, it should) look to TW3 for ideas, but they shouldn't forget their own identity. I don't want Bioware to make a The Witcher game, but I do want Bioware to understand they can learn from it and improve their own formula by doing that.
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Post by xetykins on Jan 11, 2017 14:05:43 GMT
Eh. I thought there is much more consequences in TW than ME2, and more visible too. Also the definition of your character is all there as well aside from romance options. Just because you don't see the morality bar in The Witcher, does not mean you are that limited. Though, what was great in ME was the death of your companions if you screw up. I still remembered how I bawled when I lost Tali, Legion and that lovely singing scientist ( halp, woots his name)
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