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Post by dragontartare on Jan 20, 2017 2:59:01 GMT
But in seriousness, have you rivaled him or friendshipped? Have you tried either of his romances? I really enjoy seeing how Hawke's love and/or support changes him for the better over the course of the game. No I don't, I've just always been put off by his angsty-emo-elf demeanour... I'm a bad person, I know, right? But I'll definitely do that during my next playthrough! There's gotta be something in him which makes everyone love him... He can be so sweet in a friendship romance, but even in a rival romance he's awesome. I like that you can pick red responses with him and instead of getting butthurt, he either responds in-kind or realizes you have a point. He can both dish it out and take it. I like his sense of humor, too, which comes out quite well if you drag him along with Varric. He and Sebastian have a nice friendship as well.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2017 3:30:01 GMT
I like DA2. My favorite character is Meredith. Sarcastic femHawke is great. Better hairstyles than DAI. Meredith is great! Even better than Corypheus or the Archdemon! (But I liked Corypheus in Legacy.)
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 20, 2017 17:58:52 GMT
DA2 is one of my favorite games, even considering it`s flawed and was rushed out of BW`s doors faster than light. First, it`s a tale in a tale - the entire game is just a big, outrageous story from Varric, a self-titled compulsive liar. Remember that initial crazy scene between Varric and Bartrand at Bartrand`s mansion? Before Cassandra interrupts Varric? If you consider the entire game like that, using the "sarcastic" dialogue option (I prefer to name it the clever option) almost all the time - it reflects better Varric`s style of storytelling - you have quite another game at your hand. And accepting DA2 as a story told by Varric covers up many of the game`s flaws. Like the inconsistencies between elves, qunari and Flemeth from DA:O and DA2, the repetitive thugs "action" at night in all 3 acts, the flashy combat with "teleporting" and even the 3 enemy waves combat. All figments of a crazy beardless dwarf`s imagination. Not the many fetch quests though. BW created an original story about a family trying to survive the Blight and then staying alive in Kirkwall, a strange looking old Tevinter city, and a band of companions like in no other BW game before and since. Or any RPG for that matter.
With less obvious re-use of area resources, like dungeons being more or less variations of 3 models, the same with houses (it seems DA2 has an obsession with number 3) and better side quests this game could have been a big hit. Especially since BW didn`t exploited the merchant angle of Kirkwall at all. Think of a secondary storyline about nobles and merchants competing over Kirkwall`s trade (treason, betrayal, murder, guilds) over all three acts and you have a vibrant city. Alive and dangerous. And a very good RPG.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 20, 2017 19:02:17 GMT
Companions: (cross posted but expanded.) I love them all.
Sebastian is okay, don't dislike him, suffers from the same proselytizing most religious folks suffer from, but it seems to bring happiness to Fenris, and for that, I give him a pass on even his greatest flaw (in my eyes.) His ... I'm not going to call it an over reaction, but his very real reaction at the end of DA2 in response to Anders actions was great except for the tiny little problem of his pointing his rage at Kirkwall as opposed to directly at Hawke or Anders. We should have had to fight Sebastian on the spot or allow him to do the execution. Unfortunately, his story direction had actual support as a WT mission in DAI...sigh. SO, until that very moment, he is a solid if underwhelming character.
I love Aveline because she punched my murder Hawke in the face and we laughed about it afterwards. That's family, fucked up family, but family nonetheless. She has a couple of Javier from Les Miserables Moments when dealing with the Arishok. And the scenes you may not even get where she refuses to side with the mages but then also refuses to raise her blade against you is an amazing one one should look up on youtube.e
I love Merril for being the dorkiest dork ever. Also, in spite of how mean people can be to her, she still refuses to go down to their level and hit them where it hurts. She is also proud to be a Dalish, and represents it in a non angry very respectful way. Previous Dalish companion, Velanna, comes no where close to this. Yes, she does a lot of silly banter, but put her in a party where people judge her or challenge her on her beliefs and you can see her very serious very devoted side. And people should try to see both sides and not just saddle her with the naive child label.
I love Varric for trying to protect everyone is his special kinda Carta way; whether its's Merril, Fenris, Anders, and even Cole, later. He was the perfect built in friend for Hawke.
I love Isabella for her sex positivity and career goals; the way she thrives on freedom is refreshing to watch. And if you get her loyalty, it's as touching as when Morrigan got all choked up and called me friend. It's touching, you just got to dig past the sexual bravado.
I love Fenris because, in spite of his struggle and trauma, he pushes himself to get through it. To move beyond it. He wants to, so desperately, and it's painful to watch how frustrated he gets with himself. But then he gets there. He gets there and it's beautiful to witness. Whether it makes your heart swell with love or friendship, you can't help but be proud to see where he ends up. Supporting you in protecting the mages is the biggest thing he could ever do to show he believed in you considering his past.
I love Anders. And I hate Anders. And that's why his character is so well done. He's so human it's disgusting. he has it all. He has jealousy, joy, silliness, pain, selfishness, devotion, fear, cowardess.... He's judgemental but allows himself to be judged. Add a dash of pathetic on more than one occasion and you got a roller coaster of emotion from start to finish that represents a true and flawed human being. He makes huge mistakes. His energy and passion are his driving force and it is easy for someone to get swept away in it.
Then the siblings!
Bethany is bland (to me). She's very likable but there is also a sadness to her belief that maybe she really should be in a tower kept from everyone. She doesn't ever seem to complain. All of the NPCs think of her fondly. However, I think there is an edge of strength within that must come up when she's pushed.
Then there is Carver. Wanting to stand on his own two feet so badly. Jealous of Hawke, perceiving them to cast a shadow he can never escape. A childish brat of a man-boy who's growth over the game is just as touching as Fenris'. "It's gone too long without being said. I'm proud to call you "sister." And with that line, he stole my heart as favorite sibling of the two. Also, as a Warden, he breaks regs and comes to help you at the end game battle. I love that guy, my little brother.
Gamlen is a bit of a nasty person, but he has redeeming moments as well. And Leandra has the flaw of wanting to be noble again after rightfully losing it all to her life choices.
All of them. So real. Interacting with you. REACTING TO YOU.
This is what makes DA2 great. Completely fleshed out characters, with a personal story and life beyond Hawke. All possible because the game is set up in a city rather the usual, overused and soo "boring by now" eternal quest or campaign. Like BG series, or DA:O. Games where companions have nothing else to do but following your character. In DA2 though, all have their own homes, interests or jobs, quests. It wasn`t perfectly executed, but it`s a significant departure from the standard "companion as the PC shadow" formula. Then, as you described so well, were the companions themselves. All well rounded up, consistent, with strong and weak points, personal tragedies (in the past, recent or both). A group of people sharing personal experiences, becoming friends. The first encounters with each companion were different and well integrated in the story, but also consistent with each companion`s history: Varric always looking out for news, Aveline at the barracks as usual, Merrill frightened that she has to leave her clan, Fenris trying to evade his former master`s traps, Sebastian at Elthina`s side conflicted by the murder of his family, Anders hiding but already involved in Circle business, Isabela trying to evade somehow two traps at once. It`s a game which grows on you, with each companion and their personal struggles. And the fact that any meaningful dialogue with each companion usually happens at their place is very important to mark the distinction between them and Hawke. It`s no longer about a main character and her or his sidemen. It`s about a group of friends. At least it is in my case. I never tried to rival them. There was no real point, as you also said. Each of them have reasons for their actions beliefs and viewpoint. In my case, Hawke tried to encourage them to chose better outcomes. Of course, you have something of this also in the previous DA:O. Like persuading Alistair or Leliana toward a path or another. But it`s not nearly the same thing.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 20, 2017 20:57:22 GMT
As for the main plot, there isn`t one. And that is maybe the best BW idea for DA2. Think about DA:O, or DA:I. Both games start with a major catastrophic event. You are learning about this in the first moments. The entire game is based on how to deal with it. DA2 does not have such major plot element. It starts with Varric, then you have Hawke & Co running from Lothering, then arriving in Kirkwall. Then nothing.
It`s not that the plot is hidden from you. There is no "End of the World" threat in front of Hawke. Just a bizarre city with its denizens and "guests", politics and factions. Just like real life, with no "X marks the villain" augmented reality enhancement. DA:O vas good, but I knew from the start that I will have to deal with the darkspawn, whoever those were. In DA2 you have plot twists over plot twists, opponents evolving from neutral or benign to dangerous or treacherous. Just like real life. Of course, there was Loghain & Howe in DA:O, and the Landsmeet. But all this started at the beginning of the game at Ostagar. By the time your Warden wakes up in Flemeth`s hut the path is already clear. And in case you missed it, Flemeth and Morrigan are ready and eager to point it out to you. And Alistair to give directions. Nothing is clear at the start of Act 1 in DA2. And that`s a very good thing.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2017 21:37:02 GMT
As for the main plot, there isn`t one. And that is maybe the best BW idea for DA2. Think about DA:O, or DA:I. Both games start with a major catastrophic event. You are learning about this in the first moments. The entire game is based on how to deal with it. DA2 does not have such major plot element. It starts with Varric, then you have Hawke & Co running from Lothering, then arriving in Kirkwall. Then nothing. It`s not that the plot is hidden from you. There is no "End of the World" threat in front of Hawke. Just a bizarre city with its denizens and "guests", politics and factions. Just like real life, with no "X mark the villain" augmented reality enhancement. DA:O vas good, but I knew from the start that I will have to deal with the darkspawn, whoever those were. In DA2 you have plot twists over plot twists, opponents evolving from neutral or benign to dangerous or treacherous. Just like real life. Of course, there was Loghain & Howe in DA:O, and the Landsmeet. But all this started at the beginning of the game at Ostagar. By the time your Warden wakes up in Flemeth`s hut the path is already clear. And in case you missed it, Flemeth and Morrigan are ready and eager to point it out to you. And Alistair to give directions. Nothing is clear at the start of Act 1 in DA2. And that`s a very good thing. And at the end Hawke still important person in Thedas' fate... but as catalyst.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 21, 2017 3:16:21 GMT
And at the end Hawke still important person in Thedas' fate... but as catalyst. Hawke`s importance in DA events starts probably with Flemeth. At the least, Hawke offers her a way to travel undetected. Most likely also saving her life if she is slain by the Warden. As for the events in Kirkwall and around, there is Corypheus, and the Arishok, and the red lyrium, and Meredith, and Anders, and Sebastian... The list is quite long. Maybe Hawke`s accomplishments are not as spectacular as the HoF or the Inquisitor, but that doesn`t make them less important. Not to mention the fact that the HoF had an army`s help, and the Inquisitor an entire organization, while Hawke has only a few friends. The fact that everything Hawke did was a response for an imminent crisis, doesn`t diminish the value of Hawke`s actions. Having no major crisis in sight is not a sign that all is well and sunny. The fact that DA2 doesn`t start with an intro about a catastrophic event threatening all Thedas is not a weakness in my opinion. History usually deals with major events like wars. But how often seemingly unimportant events changed humankind`s path? And I`m not talking only about political or religious events. For instance, a letter from Blaise Pascal to Pierre de Fermat lead to the development of probability models and theory, which are all important today. DA2 was another kind of RPG story. About a chaotic set of events and a group of outcasts led by an unwilling hero. A very good idea in my opinion.
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Post by Wildfire on Jan 21, 2017 14:38:03 GMT
DA2 was another kind of RPG story. About a chaotic set of events and a group of outcasts led by an unwilling hero. A very good idea in my opinion. Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've said. Not only is Hawke an unwilling hero, Hawke is also an unfortunate one. And more than a bit tragic. I think Bioware has on purpose made Hawke something of a tragic figure, a complete trainwreck when it comes to their actions and their role in the history of Thedas. It's not often that a fantasy RPG features such an anti-hero as its main protagonist. It's like Varric says - only Hawke is able to cause, well, Hawke-esque damage wherever they go; it's hilarious and tragic at the same time. Just think what Hawke has managed to "achieve" in the humble timespan of 10 years - wreak havoc in Kirkwall, create a spark which sets the whole world on fire in the form of the mage rebellion + unleash Corypheus on the whole world. And we're only talking about the major events here... I think Thedas sometimes needs characters like Hawke - to show us that not everyone can be the HoF or the Inquisitor who saves the world from some unexplicable evil. Someone's gotta do the damage in between so there's something to fix Some DAI Spoilers follow: In all seriousness, I think Hawke, when they return in DAI, already realises what they have caused. I think it was really touching to read the codex entry for my Hawke (sided with Templars) in DAI; it showed just how controversial she was as a historical figure, with mages pretty much blaming her and wanting to relegate her to the recycle bin of history. "She has done her part", said the codex entry, and right it was. And I think the burden of the past really shows in their character in DAI. My humorous Hawke was so gloomy all the time, and even her witty remarks were shadowed by what she considered her past failures. I think a part of her probably wanted to die there in the Fade, to make a final sacrifice to compensate for all the destruction she acted as a catalyst for. In some sense, I guess dying there would have concluded the tragic story of Hawke in a fitting way... But of course I couldn't let her die, I loved her too much to do so. Hawke Spoiler summary: DAI pays proper respect to Hawke and their character development. And I think I'll always hold deep respect for Bioware for that, no matter what happens. A final spoiler link, a picture of my canon Hawke with Inquisitor Trevelyan: Cheers everyone who've come to share their DA2 love so far, and please continue!
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 21, 2017 17:14:37 GMT
Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've said. Not only is Hawke an unwilling hero, Hawke is also an unfortunate one. And more than a bit tragic. I think Bioware has on purpose made Hawke something of a tragic figure, a complete trainwreck when it comes to their actions and their role in the history of Thedas. It's not often that a fantasy RPG features such an anti-hero as its main protagonist. It's like Varric says - only Hawke is able to cause, well, Hawke-esque damage wherever they go; it's hilarious and tragic at the same time. Just think what Hawke has managed to "achieve" in the humble timespan of 10 years - wreak havoc in Kirkwall, create a spark which sets the whole world on fire in the form of the mage rebellion + unleash Corypheus on the whole world. And we're only talking about the major events here... I think Thedas sometimes needs characters like Hawke - to show us that not everyone can be the HoF or the Inquisitor who saves the world from some unexplicable evil. Someone's gotta do the damage in between so there's something to fix For me, Hawke is an unwilling hero, not a reluctant one. Unfortunate or tragic? Maybe. Anders is tragic. I think most people qualify Hawke as tragic hero because of the personal loses (father, sibling, mother) and because most of Hawke`s relevant actions has tragic consequences (Corypheus, the Mage-Templar war). In contrast, they judge the Hero of Ferelden and the Inquisitor as successful heroes because one ended the 5`th Blight and the other closed the Breach and killed Corypheus. All good so far, but let`s think for a moment what if Hawke & Co never survived the darkspawn ambush outside Lothering (say Flemeth was busy doing something else and failed to notice them). Do you think that in this case a mage rebellion would have never occured (if not fuelled by Anders, then by somebody else, say Orsino), or Bartrand would have never found the ancient taig and the infamous red lyrium? Or Janeka would have never found another Hawke relative to free Corypheus? I seriously doubt it. I never played DA:I so far (I don`t like the character control among other things) but let`s look a bit about how successful were the Warden (HoF) actions, beyond slaying the Archdemon. He practically selected the new king in both Orzamar and Ferelden. Problem is, no matter who is chosen for Orzamar, the consequences are not stellar. Better consequences for Ferelden are possible but still far from perfect. As for the Awakening, in the same spirit you can blame the HoF for the many lives lost in the darkspawn attack against Amaranthine. Well, you can always play an arrogant, brutish and murderous Hawke. Which is also possible for the Warden. But even if you play both of them as responsible leaders, bad things will occur in both playthroughs. It`s true, everything around Hawke seems to conspire against her or him. And no matter what Hawke does the ultimate consequence seems like a disaster. The problem with this kind of thinking is that it`s about the circumstances Hawke has to deal with, not about her or his choices. Put the HoF or the Inquisitor in Hawke`s position and watch. You can say also that Hawke`s choices were bad in the long run. Not likely. For instance, when dealing with the Arishok Hawke has no idea about the Tome of Koslun, until when it`s too late. Hawke definitely didn`t forced Meredith to act as she does during DA2, and has no idea about Anders`s plans. And even by dying by the hands of the Carta Hawke cannot prevent Corypheus`s escape. What Hawke does instead, if he is responsible and caring, is to take care of her or his family, friends and home. The concept of home is what sets Hawke apart from both the HoF and the Inquisitor. All three main characters are escaping dangers along the game instead of a fight to the death at the beginning of their games - the Warden and Hawke from the same Lothering assault. But in Hawke`s case that "run for your life" strategy ends when she or he arrives in Kirkwall. Like Bethany said "No more running. We are home." From Act 1 onward Hawke is acting as a resident of Kirkwall, defending her or his home against any threat, as well as possible. It`s not Hawke`s fault that the odds are always against her or him. What do you think the HoF or the Inquisitor would have done better?
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Post by Wildfire on Jan 21, 2017 18:29:11 GMT
All good so far, but let`s think for a moment what if Hawke & Co never survived the darkspawn ambush outside Lothering (say Flemeth was busy doing something else and failed to notice them). Do you think that in this case a mage rebellion would have never occured (if not fuelled by Anders, then by somebody else, say Orsino), or Bartrand would have never found the ancient taig and the infamous red lyrium? Or Janeka would have never found another Hawke relative to free Corypheus? I seriously doubt it. I think you've misunderstood me there. What I tried to say was that Hawke acted as a catalyst for those disastrous events, not that they were to blame for them. Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough I do admit that I exaggerated a bit when I said that Hawke ruined everything and Inquisitor must fix the mess - I did that to be more dramatic Of course all those things were set to happen regardless. But personally I would believe that even though Hawke was not to blame for those events since they had no part in the origins of those conflicts, those events must have been a heavy burden. I mean, even if you are not at fault, it must still hurt to think that you acted as a catalyst, and you probably will think about all the ways you could have done better. Or at least that is how I believe Hawke would feel. And only a person made of iron could completely ignore all the blame others in Thedas must be laying on them. In short, I do agree with you that Hawke is not to blame. But I still consider Hawke to be a tragic person, for the reasons explained above. How can someone who is caught in such events not be tragic in their own way? I'd have trouble sleeping for the rest of my life if I were Hawke. And I don't even need to start on Hawke's history with their companions and family... And that's also one of the reasons why I admire Hawke, for never letting up even if life isn't all that kind to them. And you've got a good point about Kirkwall being Hawke's home. It's another thing which makes Hawke such an unique hero.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2017 19:38:50 GMT
DA2 was another kind of RPG story. About a chaotic set of events and a group of outcasts led by an unwilling hero. A very good idea in my opinion. Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've said. Not only is Hawke an unwilling hero, Hawke is also an unfortunate one. And more than a bit tragic. I think Bioware has on purpose made Hawke something of a tragic figure, a complete trainwreck when it comes to their actions and their role in the history of Thedas. It's not often that a fantasy RPG features such an anti-hero as its main protagonist. It's like Varric says - only Hawke is able to cause, well, Hawke-esque damage wherever they go; it's hilarious and tragic at the same time. Just think what Hawke has managed to "achieve" in the humble timespan of 10 years - wreak havoc in Kirkwall, create a spark which sets the whole world on fire in the form of the mage rebellion + unleash Corypheus on the whole world. And we're only talking about the major events here... I think Thedas sometimes needs characters like Hawke - to show us that not everyone can be the HoF or the Inquisitor who saves the world from some unexplicable evil. Someone's gotta do the damage in between so there's something to fix Some DAI Spoilers follow: In all seriousness, I think Hawke, when they return in DAI, already realises what they have caused. I think it was really touching to read the codex entry for my Hawke (sided with Templars) in DAI; it showed just how controversial she was as a historical figure, with mages pretty much blaming her and wanting to relegate her to the recycle bin of history. "She has done her part", said the codex entry, and right it was. And I think the burden of the past really shows in their character in DAI. My humorous Hawke was so gloomy all the time, and even her witty remarks were shadowed by what she considered her past failures. I think a part of her probably wanted to die there in the Fade, to make a final sacrifice to compensate for all the destruction she acted as a catalyst for. In some sense, I guess dying there would have concluded the tragic story of Hawke in a fitting way... But of course I couldn't let her die, I loved her too much to do so. Hawke Spoiler summary: DAI pays proper respect to Hawke and their character development. And I think I'll always hold deep respect for Bioware for that, no matter what happens. A final spoiler link, a picture of my canon Hawke with Inquisitor Trevelyan: Cheers everyone who've come to share their DA2 love so far, and please continue! The Champion of Kirkwall finally destroyed Kirkwall, due to the circumstances (or more or less of its own volition?), and as a result of his/her intervention almost perish the whole Thedas. Hawke anti-hero: his/her type depend on the personality: An "evil" Hawke is a villain type anti-hero, a "good"/"neutral" Hawke is a "drifting" hero, or can be a "truth-seeking" hero (with Anders). So: the drifting Hawke's (most of the Hawkes, I think) goal only to survive, and to defend his/her family and home. During the Act 1 s/he regain the family fortune and the name, but (almost) lose his/her brother/sister, and in the background starting the tragedy of the city/world: the red lyrium. In Act 2 s/he lose his/her mother – so: the family's (almost) gone, s/he failed, but seems s/he saved his home, and can build a new life. But at the finish of the Act 3 will be clear, that s/he can't to save his home, in fact s/he is one of the causes of destruction. ( "That's what happens, when you try to change things. Things change. You can't always control, how" – Inquisition Hawke) My Inquisition Hawke(s): I was a bit disappointed, when I saw my burned-out Hawkes, but ultimately understandable, and at the they still have some good moments. I think, they don't want to sacrifice themselves (most of them willingly supported Anders, saved his brother/sister, and do not really feel responsible for accidents), and it makes little sense to leave them in the Fade, especially instead Loghain... So: at the end they will live happily with their boyfriends, on the ruins of the Circles, until they die. As i imagine, my Fenris romanced Hawkes probably will go back to the Kirkwall with Varric –official end–, but I don't think, that my Hawkes with Anders will join to Varric, unless they are welcome Anders in Kirkwall –it seems quite unbelievable–, so much more the chance, that they will ride into the sunset together. (I don't like the tragedy...)
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 21, 2017 19:57:20 GMT
I think you've misunderstood me there. What I tried to say was that Hawke acted as a catalyst for those disastrous events, not that they were to blame for them. Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough I do admit that I exaggerated a bit when I said that Hawke ruined everything and Inquisitor must fix the mess - I did that to be more dramatic Of course all those things were set to happen regardless. But personally I would believe that even though Hawke was not to blame for those events since they had no part in the origins of those conflicts, those events must have been a heavy burden. I mean, even if you are not at fault, it must still hurt to think that you acted as a catalyst, and you probably will think about all the ways you could have done better. Or at least that is how I believe Hawke would feel. And only a person made of iron could completely ignore all the blame others in Thedas must be laying on them. I know that the viewpoint about Hawke acting as a catalyst is quite popular, but I don`t understand it. One can claim Hawke accelerated all those disastrous events, but the claim is quite weak. Anders, Isabela, Bartrand and Varric would have still acted in a similar manner even without Hawke present in Kirkwall. So the tragedy concerning the Arishok and his quest about the Tome of Koslun would have happened, and also Sister Petrice`s manipulations. Let`s think a bit about it. Without Hawke it`s quite likely Isabella would have gone hiding to avoid Castillon. Or could have been killed. And most likely the Tervinter mages would have aquired the tome, leading to an even more violent qunari assault. Without Hawke Meredith would have tried a costly siege of the Viscount Palace, with the result of many (possibly most) nobles killed, Templars and guards seriously depleted. With no Aveline to replace Jeven you can expect high casualties among the guards and a much harsher templar rule over Kirkwall after. So: Did Hawke started the qunari events? No. It`s possible to expect a better outcome without Hawke? No. It`s possible to think of a much worse outcome without Hawke? Yes. So, can you conclude that Hawke was a catalyst for the qunari assault? You can make the same analysis about the red lyrium, Meredith and the mages, and also about Corypheus. Maybe Corypheus would have escaped later, since it was quite easy to locate Hawke after being named Champion of Kirkwall. But he would have escaped nonetheless. So, in my opinion, a responsible Hawke reduced the impact of the tragic events happening in Kirkwall during her or his stay. Except the escape of Corypheus, which was imprisoned more than a thousand years before, and anyway the chain of events was totally out of Hawke`s control. Malcolm`s involvement was also forced. One problem is that DA2 don`t allow Hawke a larger degree of freedom, like volunteering for the Circle (if Hawke is a mage), or to kill Grace, thus preventing her actions in Act3. But it`s the same for DA:O also, with even more severe consequences. For instance, a dwarven noble should have been able to take the Orzamar throne instead of a weak but honorable Harrowmont and a murderous Bhelen.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2017 21:02:52 GMT
I think you've misunderstood me there. What I tried to say was that Hawke acted as a catalyst for those disastrous events, not that they were to blame for them. Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough I do admit that I exaggerated a bit when I said that Hawke ruined everything and Inquisitor must fix the mess - I did that to be more dramatic Of course all those things were set to happen regardless. But personally I would believe that even though Hawke was not to blame for those events since they had no part in the origins of those conflicts, those events must have been a heavy burden. I mean, even if you are not at fault, it must still hurt to think that you acted as a catalyst, and you probably will think about all the ways you could have done better. Or at least that is how I believe Hawke would feel. And only a person made of iron could completely ignore all the blame others in Thedas must be laying on them. I know that the viewpoint about Hawke acting as a catalyst is quite popular, but I don`t understand it. One can claim Hawke accelerated all those disastrous events, but the claim is quite weak. Anders, Isabela, Bartrand amd Varric would have still acted in a similar manner even without Hawke present in Kirkwall. So the tragedy concerning the Arishok and his quest about the Tome of Koslun would have happened, and also Sister Petrice`s manipulations. Let`s think a bit about it. Without Hawke it`s quite likely Isabella would have gone hiding to avoid Castillon. Or could have been killed. And most likely the Tervinter mages would have aquired the tome, leading to an even more violent qunari assault. Without Hawke Meredith would have tried a costly siege of the Viscount Palace, with the result of many (possibly most) nobles killed, Templars and guards seriously depleted. With no Aveline to replace Jeven you can expect high casualties among the guards and a much harsher templar rule over Kirkwall after. So: Did Hawke started the qunari events? No. It`s possible to expect a better outcome without Hawk? No. It`s possible to think of a much worse outcome without Hawke? Yes. So, can you conclude that Hawke was a catalyst for the qunari assault? You can make the same analysis about the red lyrium, Meredith and the mages, and also about Corypheus. Maybe Corypheus would have escaped later, since it was quite easy to locate Hawke after being named Champion of Kirkwall. But he would have escaped nonetheless. So, in my opinion, a responsible Hawke reduced the impact of the tragic events happening in Kirkwall during her or his stay. Except the escape of Corypheus, which was imprisoned more than a thousand years before, and anyway the chain of events was totally out of Hawke`s control. Malcolm`s involvement was also forced. One problem is that DA2 don`t allow Hawke a larger degree of freedom, like volunteering for the Circle (if Hawke is a mage), or to kill Grace, thus preventing her actions in Act3. But it`s the same for DA:O also, with even more severe consequences. For instance, a dwarven noble should have been able to take the Orzamar throne instead of a weak but honorable Harrowmont and a murderous Bhelen. Yes, you're right, Hawke don't really matter in many viewpoints: "Did you think you mattered, Hawke? Did you think, everything you did, mattered" – Nightmare demon in InquisitionAnd according this viewpoint VARRIC was the catalyst, but Hawke is more "heroic", Varric is rather contemplative. He told Hawke, why s/he is the protagonist in Varric's eyes (I found that video): And this is why Varric feel, that he must to join to the Inquisition. Varric isn't a leader, Hawke is. But Varric was, who involved Hawke in the expedition, he was, who recommended him/her to meet with Anders. But Hawke wanted to join to expedition, and accepted his/her position, because s/he fit this position, and Varric not. Without Hawke Bartrand an Varric probably still would be able to finance this expedition; Isabela is clever, I'm sure, that she also would be able to find a way to steal the Koslun; To start the mage war Anders needed only Justice; Fenris probably would be able to find some help, as was for three years, and he had plans; Merrill a bit weird, but probably without Hawke she still would have been exiled from the clan; Sebastian also would be able to find mercenaries for his revenge; Aveline would been arrived in Kirkwall also without Hawke, and would be able to become Guard Captain. So: seems, Hawke don't matter at all, but still, Hawke helped to change their fate. This is a catalyst's job. Or not? Without Hawke, Bartrand's expedition maybe failed, or do not go that far; The Arishok cause more damage in the city; Anders might fail at Chantry (I'm not sure). And the others? These people would not have stayed together, probably would not even know each other. So: Hawke is a catalyst.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 21, 2017 21:26:29 GMT
And the others? These people would not have stayed together, probably would not even know each other. So: Hawke is a catalyst. Thinking outside the box helps in Hawke`s case. The only way to answer this is to exclude her/him from Kirkwall during DA2 events. As I proposed: let`s say Hawke & her/his family and also Aveline died while trying to escape the darkspawn horde. Leaving only the other companions to "sort" things out. If you know a bit of chemistry, a catalyst`s role is to facilitate a chemical reaction. Or at least to increase its speed. So, if the events in Kirkwall would have happened without Hawke about the same time and the same severity, or even worse (which is quite possible), Hawke cannot be a catalyst, since her/his presence is not required for the events to unfold. Which leaves Corypheus. If indeed ONLY Hawke and her/his surviving sibling had the blood required to free Corypheus, AND this was intentional from BW, AND you think about how Larius forced Malcolm to make the seals, the catalyst is Larius and not Hawke. If blood from any close relative to Malcolm can open the seals, Janeka would have founded one anyway. So, once again, why it is Hawke a catalyst? At least according to the game. Because of course you can always think that Varric lied big time about Hawke, and she/he is instead another old Elven god or something even worse. But if we stay within the game events, removing Hawke would offer you an answer. And there is no need for Hawke`s companions to form a group without Hawke in order to be involved in Kirkwall`s events. Isabela would have searched for the tome, Varric would have searched for investors, Anders for help against Meredith, Sebastian against the mercenaries. Merrill and Fenris don`t matter too much alone for Kirkwall`s fate.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 21, 2017 21:37:57 GMT
And the others? These people would not have stayed together, probably would not even know each other. So: Hawke is a catalyst. [...] If you know a bit of chemistry, a catalyst`s role is to facilitate a chemical reaction. Or at least to increase its speed. So, if the events in Kirkwall would have happened without Hawke about the same time and the same severity, or even worse (which is quite possible), Hawke cannot be a catalyst, since her/his presence is not required for the events to unfold. [...] Still. Everything, what happened is easier with Hawke, than without Hawke. (And: s/he can start a war between Kirkwall and Starkhaven... – still not personally, because Sebastian, who can start this, but his/her decision is the possible cause.)
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 21, 2017 22:36:22 GMT
Still. Everything, what happened is easier with Hawke, than without Hawke. (And: s/he can start a war between Kirkwall and Starkhaven... – still not personally, because Sebastian, who can start this, but his/her decision is the possible cause.) Stating that everything what happened in Kirkwall is easier with Hawke than without her/him doesn`t make it so. Try doing my mental experiment - remove Hawke, her/his family and Aveline from Kirkwall, and re-think the events without Hawke. Removing just Hawke doesn`t work, since if say Hawke sacrificed her/himself and Leandra, Bethany and Carver survived, DA2 would have been about Bethany or Carver. As for the possibility that Hawke can start a war with Starkhaven, that`s only possible if Anders is spared. Something a responsible Hawke will not do. Not because Anders deserves to die, but because Justice became too much a burden for him. And also to prevent a war with Starkhaven, and a civil war inside Kirkwall. More than that, it`s a choice you are able to make in-game. Not something beyond Hawke control like the Arishok`s presence or Janeka`s hunt for Hawke blood. I understand the fact that you like a "tainted" Hawke, or are influenced by what happens in DA:I when Hawke appears. That`s BW position, similar to the one considering Bhelen`s rule "enlightened". Something I really doubt. The way I played a responsible and caring Hawke, the qunari threat, Meredith`s paranoia and Corypheus were beyond Hawke`s control. Hawke was never able to provoke these events. She/he tried the best to overcome the odds and save her/his family and Kirkwall. She is no viscount, Knight Commander of the Templars or First Enchanter of Kirkwall Circle. Or Grand Cleric. Interesting how these powerful characters were never considered at all responsible for the tragic events in Kirkwall. Only Hawke...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 0:24:48 GMT
Still. Everything, what happened is easier with Hawke, than without Hawke. (And: s/he can start a war between Kirkwall and Starkhaven... – still not personally, because Sebastian, who can start this, but his/her decision is the possible cause.) Stating that everything what happened in Kirkwall is easier with Hawke than without her/him doesn`t make it so. Try doing my mental experiment - remove Hawke, her/his family and Aveline from Kirkwall, and re-think the events without Hawke. Removing just Hawke doesn`t work, since if say Hawke sacrificed her/himself and Leandra, Bethany and Carver survived, DA2 would have been about Bethany or Carver. As for the possibility that Hawke can start a war with Starkhaven, that`s only possible if Anders is spared. Something a responsible Hawke will not do. Not because Anders deserves to die, but because Justice became too much a burden for him. And also to prevent a war with Starkhaven, and a civil war inside Kirkwall. More than that, it`s a choice you are able to make in-game. Not something beyond Hawke control like the Arishok`s presence or Janeka`s hunt for Hawke blood. I understand the fact that you like a "tainted" Hawke, or are influenced by what happens in DA:I when Hawke appears. That`s BW position, similar to the one considering Bhelen`s rule "enlightened". Something I really doubt. The way I played a responsible and caring Hawke, the qunari threat, Meredith`s paranoia and Corypheus were beyond Hawke`s control. Hawke was never able to provoke these events. She/he tried the best to overcome the odds and save her/his family and Kirkwall. She is no viscount, Knight Commander of the Templars or First Enchanter of Kirkwall Circle. Or Grand Cleric. Interesting how these powerful characters were never considered at all responsible for the tragic events in Kirkwall. Only Hawke... Wait! I'm confused. What you want to prove? That Hawke's no matter? But this is the starting point! I said: Aveline, Varric/Bartrand, Anders, Isabela, Arishok, Sebastian, Merrill, Fenris, Meredith, Orsino... they all would be able to do, what they did, and Kirkwall/Thedas still would be able to be fucked hard. But not sure, and probably on another way. Bethany or Carver would be able this? I think, Bethany don't want anything else, just live as everyone, but she would be able to do for her mother and Carver. Carver is ambitious, but nobody do not take him seriously, despite this, I can imagine, if Hawke had been died, he would be less childish. But this isn't sure. We know, that Hawke was able for it, and imaginable, that his/her siblings also would be able, but this isn't not sure. So: of course, you're right, but not entirely. Yes, Hawke personally don't matter in many aspect. What matters that s/he was actively present everywhere, and s/he intervened in the events, thereby speeding up they (even unwittingly). I did not say that great characters are not responsible for what happened. Everyone is responsible for his/her own actions. Hawke just can feel responsiblity (your Hawke executed Anders, because Sebastian blackmailed her, despite, that she don't responsible to Sebastian's illogical revenge toward Kirkwall...) ___ Haha, "tainted" Hawke (why not straight "evil"?) My Hawke(s) also did for Kirkwall what he was able to do. Completed the City Guards' and the Templars' work, and worked as diplomat for the viscount. Minimized the loss of Kirkwall during the qunari war. Neither was his duty. At Act 3, before he helped Anders to blow up the Chantry, tryed to convince Meredith that would better, if she would go to the bloody hell, because she seems going to be crazy quickly, and this is dangerous. Tryed to convince also Elthina and Cullen from Meredith's madness, but it was ineffective. He gathered alliances from the nobility. He drew Elthina's attention to act, but this was also ineffective. He took Anders to Meredit for persuade her together, that she's the reason that the mages became crazy. This also was ineffective... I think, he was too patient and responsible. And he care about this city enough. I don't think that worth to kill a friend/lover, due a hot-headed possible princeling's threat. Do NOT to execute anyone isn't a sin, even not law-breaking (if anyone not an executioner, but Hawke's not.) Alistair was able to kill Loghain, if the Warden refuse that. (ofc, if Sebastian would try that, this have been his last day, and he probably knew that...) (In friendship Justice don't bother Anders, and not even a burden to him.) So: Hawke not responsible for Sebastian's revenge. Only Sebastian responsible for Sebastian's revenge. But still: Hawke is the catalyst.
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 22, 2017 5:02:27 GMT
DA2 is my favorite DA game, but it might not be for quite the same reasons as many other people. To me, it's not really a tragedy, per se; it's a series of tragic events, but in my case, my Hawke refused to be broken by any of them and, while she didn't receive perfect results, she did accomplish meaningful things, whose meaning was in part acquired by the obstacles she faced. In a way, DA2 feels like the most heroic game because you have the fewest resources; how, in the end, does one fight against an entire corrupt system? I do wish there was more proactivity in opposing the templars, but I can live with what we had, and they were a much more compelling antagonist than either Urthemiel or Corypheus.
I will agree that the companions were great in general; primarily Merrill, who's perfect.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 22, 2017 8:26:41 GMT
Wait! I'm confused. What you want to prove? That Hawke's no matter? But this is the starting point! ... So: Hawke not responsible for Sebastian's revenge. Only Sebastian responsible for Sebastian's revenge. But still: Hawke is the catalyst. I don`t think my viewpoint is confusing. Hawke is relevant in Kirkwall, but not THE catalyst. S(he) doesn`t have political power, and definitely wasn`t the one who started the events leading to the city`s devastation by the Arishok and the mage rebellion. You are seeing DA2 in a kind of black and white mode: either Hawke is completely irrelevant or s(he) is the catalyst. S(he) is neither, because Kirkwall is a complex environment, and the main force shaping the final outcome is political. Which is realistic. Exactly like in DA:O. No matter what Origin story you are choosing, your future Warden survives the Origin events, but fails to prevent the tragic outcome(s). For instance, the Cousland or the Aeducan wardens are both outmaneuvered in the events by much better prepared foes. Only after the battle of Ostagar does the new Warden start to count, and that is also because Duncan choose to protect Alistair "just in case". As a warden, s(he) has an unique status during a Blight. Also, in Ferelden what really counts for Arl Eamon is Alistair and his right for the throne. Therefore, the Warden gains political weight, something Hawke never achieves. DA2 main story is a well written and realistic one. How the main events unfold is dictated by politics, which is exactly what happens in every complex society. The political background is vital, and if you look at the relevant past events, you find this: The conflict between Viscount Perrin Threnhold and the Templars was started by Divine Beatrix III who ordered Knight-Commander Guylian to achieve the re-opening of the Waking Sea passage for Orlesian ships. Which meant a direct involvement by a neutral Templar order into the affairs of an independent state. Perrin kills Guylian, Meredith takes over and kills Perrin. Elthina promotes Meredith, who forces the election of Dumar as a puppet viscount, and practically rules over Kirkwall. Here we have all the ingredients of the future disaster. First is a takeover by the Templar order of a major independent city. Which means that the Templars can act without any opposition against mages. Meredith`s harsh views about the mages originate in the tragedy concerning her apostate sister. So it`s no wonder that the Kirkwall Circle is becoming an oppressive place, and sadistic templars like Alrik and Karras are promoted. This is why the mage rebellion starts in Kirkwall, and in no other Circle. There is no other city or state controlled by the templars in Thedas. The red lyrium plot was probably added to make Hawke`s story more relevant. Still, it`s Bartrand who planned the whole damn Deep Road expedition. And more importantly, he is the one who knows about the Primeval Thaig. Also, it`s Bartrand who sells the idol to Meredith and not Hawke. Without Hawke, Bartrand would have find his way to the Primeval Thaig and the idol. Without Bartrand, Hawke would have never ventured into the Deep Roads in the first place. As a puppet Viscount, Dumar doesn`t have the means to take a strong approach with the Arishok. He seems to have no political connections inside and outside Kirkwall, and is not strong enough to impress the Arishok. By electing him Meredith made a great disservice to Kirkwall concerning the Arishok, more so since she decides to stay neutral in the matter until it`s too late and the qunari take over the city. Let`s think for a moment what would have happened if at the start of Act 2 (say after the Lowtown poison incident) Dumar resigns and somehow secures the election of Hawke as the new Viscount. Do you think that the events would have been the same? In my Hawke`s case, s(he) would have persuaded the Arishok to reveal his quest for the tome, would have used Varric`s spy network to find it, and would have defused the whole threat before any future significant damage from Petrice. Maybe even would have recruited her help to find the tome and oust the qunari faster from Kirkwall. My Hawke has the political mind to do all this, and the companions for aid. Dumar has none. More, after such a success, Hawke`s position would have been much secure as a viscount. S(he) may never be a Champion, but being a Viscount and preventing the future disaster is much more important. Because s(he) would have found a way to prevent the mage-templar conflict. By using Sebastian`s influence, for instance. Persuading and helping him to recover Starkhaven`s throne, recovering the Starkhaven Circle (removing Grace from Kirkwall in the process) and persuading Elthina to have a more active role in Kirkwall`s Circle affairs. Maybe even use King Alistair and Leliana for leverage. Anders would have never attempted to destroy the Chantry if things would have improved steadily for Kirkwall`s mages. Anders is the real tragic figure in DA2 for me. Remember the massive outcry from BW fans after DA2 was released? About "nothing Hawke does really matters" ? It`s not true at all. Hawke matters a lot. More than any private citizen from Kirkwall. Sadly, s(he) never has the political power to prevent both major disasters. As for the real catalysts? As Varric said, take your pick: Divine Beatrix III, Meredith, Elthina. And maybe Dumar & Bartrand. Hawke is instrumental for the fate of her/his family and companions. But s(he) is outmaneuvered in the greater scheme of things by the political leaders.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 22, 2017 8:45:17 GMT
DA2 is my favorite DA game, but it might not be for quite the same reasons as many other people. To me, it's not really a tragedy, per se; it's a series of tragic events, but in my case, my Hawke refused to be broken by any of them and, while she didn't receive perfect results, she did accomplish meaningful things, whose meaning was in part acquired by the obstacles she faced. In a way, DA2 feels like the most heroic game because you have the fewest resources; how, in the end, does one fight against an entire corrupt system? I do wish there was more proactivity in opposing the templars, but I can live with what we had, and they were a much more compelling antagonist than either Urthemiel or Corypheus. I will agree that the companions were great in general; primarily Merrill, who's perfect. It`s also very much my viewpoint. Hawke does all s(he) can to prevent events put in motion way before s(he) ever puts a foot in Kirkwall, by political forces and interests far greater than s(he). And s(he) achieved all this as a private citizen, making it much more heroic. Just like Cassandra says at the end of DA2. As for the companions, all are very well written, complex and credible. Never one-dimensional, all with strong points and weaknesses, like any real breathing person. Take Varric, for instance who is usually joking and bullshitting but when things are serious he`s suddenly as harsh and unforgiving as a seasoned dwarven commander. Or Merril, clueless about human society but very sure about things related to magic. Or even Sebastian who can transit from the "all goody brother" stuff to a prince`s uncompromising and rusher viewpoint in a beat. For me, it`s hard to choose one companion. Maybe Varric, Aveline and Anders as being more directly involved in the events. My favorite DA game by far, and one of my all-time favorites.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 22, 2017 12:49:14 GMT
My Hawke(s) also did for Kirkwall what he was able to do. Completed the City Guards' and the Templars' work, and worked as diplomat for the viscount. Minimized the loss of Kirkwall during the qunari war. Neither was his duty. At Act 3, before he helped Anders to blow up the Chantry, tryed to convince Meredith that would better, if she would go to the bloody hell, because she seems going to be crazy quickly, and this is dangerous. Tryed to convince also Elthina and Cullen from Meredith's madness, but it was ineffective. He gathered alliances from the nobility. He drew Elthina's attention to act, but this was also ineffective. He took Anders to Meredit for persuade her together, that she's the reason that the mages became crazy. This also was ineffective... I think, he was too patient and responsible. And he care about this city enough. I don't think that worth to kill a friend/lover, due a hot-headed possible princeling's threat. Do NOT to execute anyone isn't a sin, even not law-breaking (if anyone not an executioner, but Hawke's not.) Alistair was able to kill Loghain, if the Warden refuse that. (ofc, if Sebastian would try that, this have been his last day, and he probably knew that...) (In friendship Justice don't bother Anders, and not even a burden to him.) So: Hawke not responsible for Sebastian's revenge. Only Sebastian responsible for Sebastian's revenge. But still: Hawke is the catalyst. I understand your point perfectly. You use to play Hawke as a mage, right? My cannon Hawke is a male rogue, so he is always concerned about Bethany`s future in the Circle. When Anders destroys the Chantry, practically sealing the fate of every mage in Kirkwall, my Hawke understands his reason and choice, but cannot accept the way Anders sacrifices Bethany`s life so easily. Let`s say Anders didn`t wanted to warn Hawke (fearing that the guards and templars might find out) but he could have arranged for an "extraction" for Bethany. Which of course never happens, because (reasons Hawke) Anders is no longer even part-human. It`s not about Justice forcing himself out during a dialogue with Hawke; it`s about the coldness of Anders`s actions, like he is acting on an abstract level, as a principle of justice and revenge. No longer caring about human consequences. It`s not that Anders is not justified to support the mages. Hawke approves it, and helps Anders. It`s about how he behaves in Act 3: like a non-human being. Once I played a diplomatic female mage Hawke, who romanced Anders but her favorite party was the "woman quartet" with Aveline, Isabela and Merrill. She reacted differently and spared Anders, since she was never concerned about losing Bethany in the Circle. She expected a retaliation from Sebastian, but no longer cared, knowing that in the end she`ll be either dead or a fugitive. And Kirkwall`s citizens never tried seriously to stand up against Meredith for the mages...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 13:19:03 GMT
Wait! I'm confused. What you want to prove? That Hawke's no matter? But this is the starting point! ... So: Hawke not responsible for Sebastian's revenge. Only Sebastian responsible for Sebastian's revenge. But still: Hawke is the catalyst. I don`t think my viewpoint is confusing. Hawke is relevant in Kirkwall, but not THE catalyst. S(he) doesn`t have political power, and definitely wasn`t the one who started the events leading to the city`s devastation by the Arishok and the mage rebellion. You are seeing DA2 in a kind of black and white mode: either Hawke is completely irrelevant or s(he) is the catalyst. S(he) is neither, because Kirkwall is a complex environment, and the main force shaping the final outcome is political. Which is realistic. Exactly like in DA:O. No matter what Origin story you are choosing, your future Warden survives the Origin events, but fails to prevent the tragic outcome(s). For instance, the Cousland or the Aeducan wardens are both outmaneuvered in the events by much better prepared foes. Only after the battle of Ostagar does the new Warden start to count, and that is also because Duncan choose to protect Alistair "just in case". As a warden, s(he) has an unique status during a Blight. Also, in Ferelden what really counts for Arl Eamon is Alistair and his right for the throne. Therefore, the Warden gains political weight, something Hawke never achieves. DA2 main story is a well written and realistic one. How the main events unfold is dictated by politics, which is exactly what happens in every complex society. The political background is vital, and if you look at the relevant past events, you find this: The conflict between Viscount Perrin Threnhold and the Templars was started by Divine Beatrix III who ordered Knight-Commander Guylian to achieve the re-opening of the Waking Sea passage for Orlesian ships. Which meant a direct involvement by a neutral Templar order into the affairs of an independent state. Perrin kills Guylian, Meredith takes over and kills Perrin. Elthina promotes Meredith, who forces the election of Dumar as a puppet viscount, and practically rules over Kirkwall. Here we have all the ingredients of the future disaster. First is a takeover by the Templar order of a major independent city. Which means that the Templars can act without any opposition against mages. Meredith`s harsh views about the mages originate in the tragedy concerning her apostate sister. So it`s no wonder that the Kirkwall Circle is becoming an oppressive place, and sadistic templars like Alrik and Karras are promoted. This is why the mage rebellion starts in Kirkwall, and in no other Circle. There is no other city or state controlled by the templars in Thedas. The red lyrium plot was probably added to make Hawke`s story more relevant. Still, it`s Bartrand who planned the whole damn Deep Road expedition. And more importantly, he is the one who knows about the Primeval Thaig. Also, it`s Bartrand who sells the idol to Meredith and not Hawke. Without Hawke, Bartrand would have find his way to the Primeval Thaig and the idol. Without Bartrand, Hawke would have never ventured into the Deep Roads in the first place. As a puppet Viscount, Dumar doesn`t have the means to take a strong approach with the Arishok. He seems to have no political connections inside and outside Kirkwall, and is not strong enough to impress the Arishok. By electing him Meredith made a great disservice to Kirkwall concerning the Arishok, more so since she decides to stay neutral in the matter until it`s too late and the qunari take over the city. Let`s think for a moment what would have happened if at the start of Act 2 (say after the Lowtown poison incident) Dumar resigns and somehow secures the election of Hawke as the new Viscount. Do you think that the events would have been the same? In my Hawke`s case, s(he) would have persuaded the Arishok to reveal his quest for the tome, would have used Varric`s spy network to find it, and would have defused the whole threat before any future significant damage from Petrice. Maybe even would have recruited her help to find the tome and oust the qunari faster from Kirkwall. My Hawke has the political mind to do all this, and the companions for aid. Dumar has none. More, after such a success, Hawke`s position would have been much secure as a viscount. S(he) may never be a Champion, but being a Viscount and preventing the future disaster is much more important. Because s(he) would have found a way to prevent the mage-templar conflict. By using Sebastian`s influence, for instance. Persuading and helping him to recover Starkhaven`s throne, recovering the Starkhaven Circle (removing Grace from Kirkwall in the process) and persuading Elthina to have a more active role in Kirkwall`s Circle affairs. Maybe even use King Alistair and Leliana for leverage. Anders would have never attempted to destroy the Chantry if things would have improved steadily for Kirkwall`s mages. Anders is the real tragic figure in DA2 for me. Remember the massive outcry from BW fans after DA2 was released? About "nothing Hawke does really matters" ? It`s not true at all. Hawke matters a lot. More than any private citizen from Kirkwall. Sadly, s(he) never has the political power to prevent both major disasters. As for the real catalysts? As Varric said, take your pick: Divine Beatrix III, Meredith, Elthina. And maybe Dumar & Bartrand. Hawke is instrumental for the fate of her/his family and companions. But s(he) is outmaneuvered in the greater scheme of things by the political leaders. With Hawke the red lyrium much easier and faster to come to the surface. (Catalyst.) Hawke can not control the decisions of Arishok and Isabela. but with Hawke Isabela (probably) more easily acquires the Koslun (Catalyst.) and s/he can minimize Kirkwall's lost. Hawke can not control the decisions of Meredith, but by helping Anders, s/he can make easier/accelerate the start of the rebellion. (Catalist.) Hawke goes to Corypheus' prison, thereby accelerating his escape. (Catalyst.) Kirkwall's and Thedas' fate isn't in Hawke's hand. But he's can accelerate the completion of destiny. Let's see on the other hand: Hawke's tragedy is this painful powerlessness. S/he would be able to prevent this avalanche with more political power? Doubtful. But s/he would be able to slow down this process. (Catalyst.) If s/he could be acquire the title of Viscount in the Act2 or at the beginning of Act 3, perhaps she would be able to push back the Templar influence over Kirkwall's civilian part (Aveline would be satisfied!), but never over the Chantry's part: the Gallows still would remain in the Templars' hand, in Elthina's liability. The viscount only secular leader, not religious, and the Circles and the Templars are the Chantry's competence. Hawke would have a limited way to maneuver, and could not prevent anything. (Still only Catalyst...) And yes: while Hawke's antihero, Anders is a tragic hero.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 14:08:54 GMT
My Hawke(s) also did for Kirkwall what he was able to do. Completed the City Guards' and the Templars' work, and worked as diplomat for the viscount. Minimized the loss of Kirkwall during the qunari war. Neither was his duty. At Act 3, before he helped Anders to blow up the Chantry, tryed to convince Meredith that would better, if she would go to the bloody hell, because she seems going to be crazy quickly, and this is dangerous. Tryed to convince also Elthina and Cullen from Meredith's madness, but it was ineffective. He gathered alliances from the nobility. He drew Elthina's attention to act, but this was also ineffective. He took Anders to Meredit for persuade her together, that she's the reason that the mages became crazy. This also was ineffective... I think, he was too patient and responsible. And he care about this city enough. I don't think that worth to kill a friend/lover, due a hot-headed possible princeling's threat. Do NOT to execute anyone isn't a sin, even not law-breaking (if anyone not an executioner, but Hawke's not.) Alistair was able to kill Loghain, if the Warden refuse that. (ofc, if Sebastian would try that, this have been his last day, and he probably knew that...) (In friendship Justice don't bother Anders, and not even a burden to him.) So: Hawke not responsible for Sebastian's revenge. Only Sebastian responsible for Sebastian's revenge. But still: Hawke is the catalyst. I understand your point perfectly. You use to play Hawke as a mage, right? My cannon Hawke is a male rogue, so he is always concerned about Bethany`s future in the Circle. When Anders destroys the Chantry, practically sealing the fate of every mage in Kirkwall, my Hawke understands his reason and choice, but cannot accept the way Anders sacrifices Bethany`s life so easily. Let`s say Anders didn`t wanted to warn Hawke (fearing that the guards and templars might find out) but he could have arranged for an "extraction" for Bethany. Which of course never happens, because (reasons Hawke) Anders is no longer even part-human. It`s not about Justice forcing himself out during a dialogue with Hawke; it`s about the coldness of Anders`s actions, like he is acting on an abstract level, as a principle of justice and revenge. No longer caring about human consequences. It`s not that Anders is not justified to support the mages. Hawke approves it, and helps Anders. It`s about how he behaves in Act 3: like a non-human being. Once I played a diplomatic female mage Hawke, who romanced Anders but her favorite party was the "woman quartet" with Aveline, Isabela and Merrill. She reacted differently and spared Anders, since she was never concerned about losing Bethany in the Circle. She expected a retaliation from Sebastian, but no longer cared, knowing that in the end she`ll be either dead or a fugitive. And Kirkwall`s citizens never tried seriously to stand up against Meredith for the mages... Most of my hawkes are mages, yes. Some more patient, some less, Carver mostly Templar, for more fun... As mage, if Carver is a Templar, this isn't so simple too: if Hawke support the mages, risking the fight against his/her brother (true: Carver chooses his fate, while Hawke did not). Non-mage Hawke have chance to protect Bethany, but mage Hawke can't protect Templar Carver. (I have one templar end –blue Hawke– explained with Carver, but was uncomfortable.) My last gameplay was a hot-headed reaver-berserker warrior, who vowed to bring Bethany out of Circle, no matter what price, and to protect Anders from anything. Meredith already sent the request for the Right of Annulment to Divine, and think about it: Kirkwall was full of abomination. Perhaps the Divine rejects Alrik's request, but Meredith is a Knight Commander. Her words are much stronger. Hawke knew it, from Karras, at the beginning of Act 3. Later Meredith virtually blackmailed him with Bethany. Wait for the judgment and trust a stranger's benevolence, seems than an animal in the slaughterhouse... Yes, this isn't a calm, wise decision, but believeable in RP viewpoint. Starting point: when the chaos begins, Bethany will be able to escape or fight for herself, but do not have to wait in silence, helplessly her fate. About Anders (my viewpoint): I think at Act 3 Anders behavior is very human. He lost his all sense of humour and think about only one thing? Of course! He prepare a terrible thing is, he is also aware of this. If he would able to behave in the same way as before, he would a psychopath. Anders nervous and urges the action, wants to over it, as soon as possible. This is not Justice. This is Anders. Exactly this strange behavior proves to me, that Anders don't lost himself.
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Post by phoray on Jan 22, 2017 15:07:34 GMT
Aaaaaaaand every DA2 conversation comes round to Anders and his mage cause. I just find it funny.
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Post by Wildfire on Jan 22, 2017 17:05:57 GMT
Aaaaaaaand every DA2 conversation comes round to Anders and his mage cause. I just find it funny. Haha yeah, this got suddenly so philosophical. I've never really given quite so much thought to the implications and complexities of the plot. I've just been absorbed in the personal tale of Hawke. Would've been nice if Hawke had been made Viscount in the beginning of Act 3, though
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