adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 22, 2017 17:52:21 GMT
Aaaaaaaand every DA2 conversation comes round to Anders and his mage cause. I just find it funny. More kaboom than funny. After all he is the guy who blew up the Chantry, making even the qunari envious, both for the explosion and the result - not even the Arishok dared to do that, despite Sister Petrice`s involvement. You`re right of course. Many Bioware fans are passionate about Anders. They love him or hate him but rarely ignore him. Anders`s action was Bioware`s sort of "deus ex machina" solution for the stalemate between the mages and the templars in Kirkwall. It was quite spectacular - in my first play it really surprised me. I expected something serious from Anders based on how he behaved, but not exactly this. Anders is important in DA2, but he got a symbol status because his "explosive" approach. DA2 is full of characters and reactions concerning the mage vs templars/Chantry conflict. Fenris, Bethany, Carver, Merrill are just the other companions related to this. So it was understandable from Act 1 that DA2 will be about some mage/templar clash. Anders is a well written character, and well played. But so are all the other companions, main NPC`s and most minor characters in DA2. That`s by far the best part of the game. Compared to the cities from other games (the Witcher ones for instance) Kirkwall may seem a bit deserted, and the "activity" obviously staged. But the characters make it alive. For instance, think about how each companion is presented to us: the context of her/his first appearance, the first actions and words are always a good first portrait. Some are spectacular, (Isabela and Fenris), some quite the opposite (Merrill and Anders) but always good choices for a first impression.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 19:59:26 GMT
Aaaaaaaand every DA2 conversation comes round to Anders and his mage cause. I just find it funny. Haha yeah, this got suddenly so philosophical. I've never really given quite so much thought to the implications and complexities of the plot. I've just been absorbed in the personal tale of Hawke. Would've been nice if Hawke had been made Viscount in the beginning of Act 3, though As I wrote, I don't believe, that if Hawke would become Viscount, that would be a great change. Probably would be able achieve that the Templars shouldn't marching in the streets, and would withdraw into the Gallows, and let Aveline to work. Aveline finally could deal with the bandits and should not hunting for Apostates. But what else? Behind the closed doors the atrocities could be continue seamlessly in the Circle. The Viscount is secular power, Circles are the property of the Chantry, Meredith probably to remain in her position, so Anders still blow up the Chantry. Earlier or later. The bottom line: The Viscount has no power to replace the Knight Commander.
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Post by phoray on Jan 22, 2017 20:50:37 GMT
Would have been great to have been Viscount for the last act.
1. After Leandra dies and Bodhan says he's moving on, And the sibling is either dead or moved out...The house feels very empty. No longer a home, just a house It made me question all my efforts and why I was even still there. habit? The speech Aveline has with you when she says she's thinking of moving on, I was kinda like...Man, me too. If I'd been Viscount, I would have felt really responsible for Kirkwall. Would have felt duty bound to pass execution on Anders. As it was, I was like...Ugh, can't do it. Let's protect some Mages as we run out of this city I've outgrown.
2.Would have added to the bad luck rumor of the position.
3. Would have explained why Meredith and co keep staring at your for your words. I don't think being Champion cuts it.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 21:50:47 GMT
Would have been great to have been Viscount for the last act. 1. After Leandra dies and Bodhan says he's moving on, And the sibling is either dead or moved out...The house feels very empty. No longer a home, just a house It made me question all my efforts and why I was even still there. habit? The speech Aveline has with you when she says she's thinking of moving on, I was kinda like...Man, me too. If I'd been Viscount, I would have felt really responsible for Kirkwall. Would have felt duty bound to pass execution on Anders. As it was, I was like...Ugh, can't do it. Let's protect some Mages as we run out of this city I've outgrown. 2.Would have added to the bad luck rumor of the position. 3. Would have explained why Meredith and co keep staring at your for your words. I don't think being Champion cuts it. Kirkwall's biggest problem is Meredith. If Meredith remain in her position, Hawke as viscount would be an impotent puppet as Dumar was, or a bloody "aggressor", if Hawke decide, that s/he don't tolerate anymore the Templar rule in his city. In this case s/he would be forced to an armed uprising, because I don't believe, that the mere request would be enough to achieve his/her goal. So: Hawke would need army against the templars. The supportive nobles probably haven't enough armed forces even with the mercenaries and city guards. The conflict would be bloody and probably losing (with help of the freed mages possible not). In this case Anders' hand could remain clean, the Chantry's building seamlessly to proclaim the glory of Andraste. Under such conditions (Meredith will remain the head of the Templars) a peaceful Hawke's hands would be bound. The viscount title does not bring real power, or at least real decisions, only responsibilities with unacceptable conditions. A templar-hearted Hawke situation better, s/he agrees, at least. The explosion is inevitable in both cases. I think this roles is uncomfortable. The "outlaw" Champion's role is much more acceptable and fun for me. I would be satisfied, if Hawke could have a greater role in the rebellion as viscount, I expected more from the noble alliance...
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Wildfire
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Wildfire on Jan 22, 2017 23:06:57 GMT
Would have been great to have been Viscount for the last act. 1. After Leandra dies and Bodhan says he's moving on, And the sibling is either dead or moved out...The house feels very empty. No longer a home, just a house It made me question all my efforts and why I was even still there. habit? The speech Aveline has with you when she says she's thinking of moving on, I was kinda like...Man, me too. If I'd been Viscount, I would have felt really responsible for Kirkwall. Would have felt duty bound to pass execution on Anders. As it was, I was like...Ugh, can't do it. Let's protect some Mages as we run out of this city I've outgrown. You've perfectly summarised my thoughts! Especially if your partner refuses to move in, the place feels so hollow and empty and sorrowful, as if every part of the house keeps reminding you of mother's death :'( Although I'm generally pro-mage, I did feel a sense of vindication for siding with the Templars after Orsino revealed that he had known about the murdered but had not wanted to make him public to avoid Meredith's ire. Ugh, that city is such a mess, really. Considering all the events in the city, it would not be a surprise if Hawke wanted to leave for good.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2017 23:25:37 GMT
Would have been great to have been Viscount for the last act. 1. After Leandra dies and Bodhan says he's moving on, And the sibling is either dead or moved out...The house feels very empty. No longer a home, just a house It made me question all my efforts and why I was even still there. habit? The speech Aveline has with you when she says she's thinking of moving on, I was kinda like...Man, me too. If I'd been Viscount, I would have felt really responsible for Kirkwall. Would have felt duty bound to pass execution on Anders. As it was, I was like...Ugh, can't do it. Let's protect some Mages as we run out of this city I've outgrown. You've perfectly summarised my thoughts! Especially if your partner refuses to move in, the place feels so hollow and empty and sorrowful, as if every part of the house keeps reminding you of mother's death :'( Although I'm generally pro-mage, I did feel a sense of vindication for siding with the Templars after Orsino revealed that he had known about the murdered but had not wanted to make him public to avoid Meredith's ire. Ugh, that city is such a mess, really. Considering all the events in the city, it would not be a surprise if Hawke wanted to leave for good. Orsino didn't know, that Quentin is a serial killer. He just knew that he dealt with forbidden magic disciplines. What would his reason to betray him? Probably he don't knew about the details of Emeric's investigations. Look at: Orsino was a prisoner. The fact, that he was the major prisoner, isn't matter. His position don't required loyality to the (crazy and cruel) prison guard. And Meredith stopped the investigations, she considered that wasted time, and she wrote an apology letter to Gascard du Puis... Meredith would be able to know more details, if she not too busy with caress of her big red sword...
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Post by phoray on Jan 22, 2017 23:30:27 GMT
CatilinaYou are getting me today wth your cake "fine dwarven crafts" and Meredith masturbating with a red sword.
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Dovahkiin N7
N3
Xebenkeck
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 290 Likes: 874
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Post by Dovahkiin N7 on Jan 23, 2017 8:08:27 GMT
I wouldn't place it over any of 3 mass effect, but definitely over other DA.
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adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 23, 2017 8:16:14 GMT
In my first play through I was hopeful that Hawke would be the Viscount in Act 3, by the way those nobles in Hightown reacted after the Meredith-Orsino dispute. Sadly, it was never meant to be. Bioware (Gaider) has other plans... Hawke could have been a Viscount instead of Champion if not for BW`s obstinate plot device of having all three classes available for her/him, and the same storyline. Meredith would have never agreed with a mage Hawke as a Viscount, true. As a matter of fact, a mage Hawke allowed to roam free in Kirkwall is more like an insult for the player`s intelligence, if you think that Bethany was relatively easily spotted and locked up. But a warrior/rogue Hawke, with a sister in the Circle as a hostage? An ideal option for Meredith, considering that she doesn`t want to spend her time tending to the business of ruling Kirkwall (she very much prefers tormenting mages), and Hawke looks even for her much more competent than Dumar. Such a path would have meant a requirement check for the new quest (Hawke appointed Viscount): If Hawke is a mage, or Bethany died/is a Grey Warden the quest is not available. If Hawke is not a mage and Bethany is in the Circle then Hawke can be appointed Viscount. Now let`s think a bit outside the box about this appointment. In an ideal world, Hawke would have gained the Viscount position after the Javaris incident, when the qunari delegates were abducted. Say Dumar realises that he cannot handle the qunari threat, not with Seamus`s record as a qunari sympathizer. He summons Hawke to a meeting with Meredith, confess about using her/him for dealing with the Arishok and persuade her to appoint Hawke as a temporary Viscount. A second opportunity would be right after Hawke deals with the Arishok. Since almost all the surviving nobles are gathered there, they can demand the position for Hawke, alongside the Champion title or replacing it. BW`s option for the Champion title awarded by Meredith was a clever plot element. Meredith knew she has to reward Hawke somehow, but she doesn`t want to do the obvious thing of replacing Dumar with Hawke. Now let`s say Meredith makes her announcement, the nobles are demanding Hawke to be the new viscount, Meredith looks at Hawke, and if the requirement check is met, she agrees. Then she can make her threat concerning Bethany, and the job is Hawke`s. Unfortunately, such an option wasn`t in BW`s plans for an obvious reason: they wanted the mage rebellion and the mage vs templar war as an outcome. They have chosen to force this outcome for DA2, thus prohibiting Hawke to settle the mage/templar conflict or to find a peaceful solution. BW achieved its goal by making Hawke a private citizen, denying her/him any official position, thus making DA2 events credible. Otherwise, an empowered Hawke would have interfered with the desired outcome, and Bioware would have been forced to implement bizarre plot twists in order to overturn Hawke`s decisions. Because a Vicount Hawke would have been far from powerless. S(he) is resourceful, clever, and has the companions for support. Hawke would have recruited every companion for specific tasks, uniting them for a common goal: Making Kirkwall a better place. Aveline as the commander of the guard is obvious, but she also may have contacts with Ferelden officers, and can reach King Alistair (or Queen Anora). Varric is a very competent spymaster, and knows anybody worth knowing in Kirkwall, including every merchant. Isabela can help with the raiders, Fenris with the mercenaries, Merrill with the city elves, Sebastian with the Chantry, and contacting Divine Justinia V - or, if s(he) doesn`t trust him by not passing vital information to Meredith, can help him regain Starkhaven, thus removing him from Elthina`s side. And Anders would be happy to help gathering evidence about how the mages are treated, and contacting Leliana in order to remove Meredith, thus cancelling his plans to destroy the Chantry and kill Elthina. About how Hawke can better handle the Arishok I wrote in a previous plot. About Meredith s(he) would want to remove her from her position as knight-commander. And it`s not as difficult as it seems, since about the time of Act 2 Divine Justinia V just replaced Beatrix III, who was a big supporter of both Elthina and Meredith. It`s not difficult for Hawke to gather evidence about Meredith`s excesses, contact Leliana and Justinia to investigate what the templars are doing in Kirkwall. In the meantime, making commercial treaties with Ferelden, dealing with raiders and inside criminals will keep Meredith unaware. Justinia V as a new Divine will be eager to replace both Meredith and Elthina with somebody on her side. And Anders would have been eager to help replacing Meredith, and possibly hopeful about the future of mages considering Justinia`s different vision about the role of mages.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 15:39:45 GMT
In my first play through I was hopeful that Hawke would be the Viscount in Act 3, by the way those nobles in Hightown reacted after the Meredith-Orsino dispute. Sadly, it was never meant to be. Bioware (Gaider) has other plans... Hawke could have been a Viscount instead of Champion if not for BW`s obstinate plot device of having all three classes available for her/him, and the same storyline. Meredith would have never agreed with a mage Hawke as a Viscount, true. As a matter of fact, a mage Hawke allowed to roam free in Kirkwall is more like an insult for the player`s intelligence, if you think that Bethany was relatively easily spotted and locked up. But a warrior/rogue Hawke, with a sister in the Circle as a hostage? An ideal option for Meredith, considering that she doesn`t want to spend her time tending to the business of ruling Kirkwall (she very much prefers tormenting mages), and Hawke looks even for her much more competent than Dumar. Such a path would have meant a requirement check for the new quest (Hawke appointed Viscount): If Hawke is a mage, or Bethany died/is a Grey Warden the quest is not available. If Hawke is not a mage and Bethany is in the Circle then Hawke can be appointed Viscount. Now let`s think a bit outside the box about this appointment. In an ideal world, Hawke would have gained the Viscount position after the Javaris incident, when the qunari delegates were abducted. Say Dumar realises that he cannot handle the qunari threat, not with Seamus`s record as a qunari sympathizer. He summons Hawke to a meeting with Meredith, confess about using her/him for dealing with the Arishok and persuade her to appoint Hawke as a temporary Viscount. A second opportunity would be right after Hawke deals with the Arishok. Since almost all the surviving nobles are gathered there, they can demand the position for Hawke, alongside the Champion title or replacing it. BW`s option for the Champion title awarded by Meredith was a clever plot element. Meredith knew she has to reward Hawke somehow, but she doesn`t want to do the obvious thing of replacing Dumar with Hawke. Now let`s say Meredith makes her announcement, the nobles are demanding Hawke to be the new viscount, Meredith looks at Hawke, and if the requirement check is met, she agrees. Then she can make her threat concerning Bethany, and the job is Hawke`s. Unfortunately, such an option wasn`t in BW`s plans for an obvious reason: they wanted the mage rebellion and the mage vs templar war as an outcome. They have chosen to force this outcome for DA2, thus prohibiting Hawke to settle the mage/templar conflict or to find a peaceful solution. BW achieved its goal by making Hawke a private citizen, denying her/him any official position, thus making DA2 events credible. Otherwise, an empowered Hawke would have interfered with the desired outcome, and Bioware would have been forced to implement bizarre plot twists in order to overturn Hawke`s decisions. Because a Vicount Hawke would have been far from powerless. S(he) is resourceful, clever, and has the companions for support. Hawke would have recruited every companion for specific tasks, uniting them for a common goal: Making Kirkwall a better place. Aveline as the commander of the guard is obvious, but she also may have contacts with Ferelden officers, and can reach King Alistair (or Queen Anora). Varric is a very competent spymaster, and knows anybody worth knowing in Kirkwall, including every merchant. Isabela can help with the raiders, Fenris with the mercenaries, Merrill with the city elves, Sebastian with the Chantry, and contacting Divine Justinia V - or, if s(he) doesn`t trust him by not passing vital information to Meredith, can help him regain Starkhaven, thus removing him from Elthina`s side. And Anders would be happy to help gathering evidence about how the mages are treated, and contacting Leliana in order to remove Meredith, thus cancelling his plans to destroy the Chantry and kill Elthina. About how Hawke can better handle the Arishok I wrote in a previous plot. About Meredith s(he) would want to remove her from her position as knight-commander. And it`s not as difficult as it seems, since about the time of Act 2 Divine Justinia V just replaced Beatrix III, who was a big supporter of both Elthina and Meredith. It`s not difficult for Hawke to gather evidence about Meredith`s excesses, contact Leliana and Justinia to investigate what the templars are doing in Kirkwall. In the meantime, making commercial treaties with Ferelden, dealing with raiders and inside criminals will keep Meredith unaware. Justinia V as a new Divine will be eager to replace both Meredith and Elthina with somebody on her side. And Anders would have been eager to help replacing Meredith, and possibly hopeful about the future of mages considering Justinia`s different vision about the role of mages. Yes, in normal case mage Hawke (or non-mage Hawke without Circle Mage Bethany) haven't chance to become Viscount, if Meredith the Knight Commander. But not totally unimaginable, that s/he was able to keep his/her free movement in Kirkwall: In Act 1 s/he was just an apostate with good underworld connections. Easily can be hiding, no one except his/her connections knew, that s/he is a mage, and there are many refugees come in Kirkwall, and among them was many apostates. The templars had enough work without Hawke as well. In Act 2 s/he kept his/her connections, and bacame rich noble, besides that s/he was useful in many viewpoint: s/he did lesser and larger favors for the Viscount, Templars, City Guards, and had friends in lower and higher positions. In Act 3 s/he was the Champion of Kirkwall, s/he was virtually untouchable, this was his/her title's only benefit, but this was useful. So: probably this argument a bit weak, but still makes sense. About Bethany also imaginable that the Templars catched her: I never thought, that Bethany's untouchable. I don't believe, that she continue the underworld work, and don't keep the connection with them, when Hawke left for the expedition, this was Hawke's work. Or someone betrayed her. I think, this isn't requires explanation: non-mage Hawke don't know, what would happen in a world, where s/he is a mage... This is the reason, why was hard to leave her in home, when the expedition started: Kirkwall much more dangerous for a mage, than the Deeproads. (As I see, if Hawke care about his/her siblings, then the most imaginable decision is: Leave Carver in home, and take Bethany to Deeproads, it's funny that Carver more happy as Grey Warden, while Bethany become more confident as Circle Mage, and she finally don't think, that the worst thing, what can happen with a mage is the escape and hiding...) _____ (Non mage) Hawke as Viscount: yes, in Meredith viewpoint a non-mage Hawke, the best successor of Dumar: easy to blackmail him/her with Bethany. This is why his/her hands are bound. But suppose, that s/he's clever, and have some tools for make Kirkwall a better place peacefully (I think, this is a self-contradiction, but I'm game!) Your solutions assume that Kirkwall is a normal city-state, with normal citizens and leaders. In this case you're possibly right, but in this case Meredith already wouldn't the leader of the Kirkwall Templars at the Act2-Act3 (don't forget: Elthina knew about her cruelty and violation of the law, and didn't care about it), so: problem solved, also without Viscount-Hawke. But Kirkwall not an ideal city-state, not even normal... Let's see, what we have: Aveline: she was a soldier in Ferelden. She don't have contact to ferelden's King/Queen. Varric have good contacts and yes, he would be able to spy with his contact, but except some little favors, really good idea to involve the Carta in the Kirkwall's political affairs? Fenris: He's a good warrior. But in this moment he haven't leadership experience. This isn't same. And I don't think, that he have more contact to mercenaries, than Hawke. The fact, that he working sometimes as mercenary, don't means that he's the best person to manage the contacts... Isabela: probably have leadership experience, yes. Sebastian know about what Meredith did, he don't need more proof. He will never able to leave Elthina's side. He only once confronted with Elthina: about his personal revenge. But okay, we don't need to full reject this possibility. Despite, I cant imagine, that he would bigger contact to divine (without Elthina) than Hawke... or anyone else from Kirkwall's nobility. Sebastian is a simple choirboy in aspect of the Chantry. Merrill: yes, she live in the Alienage. But she not the leader of the elves. Hawke, if support the elves, don't need Merrill's help, in this case the elves will support him/her without Merrill as well. But okay possibly can help. But what for? Let's be honest, the elves do not count in diplomatic point of view. True, probably they can fight... Anders: Yes, he can help, he want help, and probably already have evidences. So: Hawke have some support, but for what? For a REBELLION. For peaceful solution we need an effective assassin, who simply murder Meredith. Problem solved, everyone's happy. Okay, probably assassinate Meredith is suspicious, then we need to replace Meredith and her supporters, with legal tools, and make the Kirkwall Circle a happy place, with Chantry support. How? The spies, the city guards, the mercenaries, smugglers and pirates can't help with this. What we have then? We have Anders, and his evidences against Meredith. But this is enough? Kirkwall needs the Divine's help, but Leliana was in Kirkwall personally. And she did nothing. Why? Not because Hawke wasn't Viscount... What would the peaceful solution exactly? The story isn't about the peaceful solution. Without the complete rewriting of story the peaceful solution isn't exist.
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adrianbc
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 330 Likes: 582
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 23, 2017 16:40:01 GMT
So: Hawke have some support, but for what? For a REBELLION. For peaceful solution we need an effective assassin, who simply murder Meredith. Problem solved, everyone's happy. Okay, probably assassinate Meredith is suspicious, then we need to replace Meredith and her supporters, with legal tools, and make the Kirkwall Circle a happy place, with Chantry support. How? The spies, the city guards, the mercenaries, smugglers and pirates can't help with this. What we have then? We have Anders, and his evidences against Meredith. But this is enough? Kirkwall needs the Divine's help, but Leliana was in Kirkwall personally. And she did nothing. Why? Not because Hawke wasn't Viscount... What would the peaceful solution exactly? The story isn't about the peaceful solution. Without the complete rewriting of story the peaceful solution isn't exist. A peaceful solution would have been possible easily with Divine Justinia`s help. If you`ve read Asunder, you know that her plans concerning mages were toward more freedom. More, she was elected Divine in 9:34 DA, exactly before Act 2 starts in DA2. I know this because there is a document in Harimann or DuPuis estate about Justinia`s election (I think it`s rather in Harimann`s, but I usually do both quests is succession). My guess it that this was no coincidence, and possibly it was linked to another story for DA2, involving Justinia and Leliana more. So, we have the new Divine who has some radical ideas concerning mages, and we have Meredith oppressing and torturing them and Elthina accepting this. Normally, even Hawke as a private citizen would have attempted to pass evidence about Kirkwall`s Circle to Justinia or Leliana. The plot don`t allow us to do it. But a Viscount Hawke with a sister in the Circle would have found a way to reach Justinia. Leliana`s investigation in Act 3 was probably based on a report from Meredith about an underground mage movement. So it`s easy to expect that Justinia, after reading some damning evidence about the abuses happening in Kirkwall`s Circle would have put both reports together and dispatched Leliana to investigate the Circle first. Because it would have been obvious for her that oppressing the mages can lead to resistance movements. And Justinia wanted a better life for mages, not a war against them. Would Justinia decide to assassinate Meredith (by Leliana) instead of relieving her from command? I don`t know. Perhaps. She has the skill to plan it, and Leliana would have done it. An assassination of Meredith by Hawke would have been possible, but doesn`t seem to me a good idea, because in that case Justinia would have been forced to act against Kirkwall. But a solution provided by Justinia is something else. And probably she would have also planned for the consequences (for instance, in case of an assassination by blaming a crazed templar). Justinia would have been eager to deal with both Elthina and Meredith once she have evidence that they are opposing her plans. Not to mention preventing a mage rebellion...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 17:31:29 GMT
So: Hawke have some support, but for what? For a REBELLION. For peaceful solution we need an effective assassin, who simply murder Meredith. Problem solved, everyone's happy. Okay, probably assassinate Meredith is suspicious, then we need to replace Meredith and her supporters, with legal tools, and make the Kirkwall Circle a happy place, with Chantry support. How? The spies, the city guards, the mercenaries, smugglers and pirates can't help with this. What we have then? We have Anders, and his evidences against Meredith. But this is enough? Kirkwall needs the Divine's help, but Leliana was in Kirkwall personally. And she did nothing. Why? Not because Hawke wasn't Viscount... What would the peaceful solution exactly? The story isn't about the peaceful solution. Without the complete rewriting of story the peaceful solution isn't exist. A peaceful solution would have been possible easily with Divine Justinia`s help. If you`ve read Asunder, you know that her plans concerning mages were toward more freedom. More, she was elected Divine in 9:34 DA, exactly before Act 2 starts in DA2. I know this because there is a document in Harimann or DuPuis estate about Justinia`s election (I think it`s rather in Harimann`s, but I usually do both quests is succession). My guess it that this was no coincidence, and possibly it was linked to another story for DA2, involving Justinia and Leliana more.
So, we have the new Divine who has some radical ideas concerning mages, and we have Meredith oppressing and torturing them and Elthina accepting this. Normally, even Hawke as a private citizen would have attempted to pass evidence about Kirkwall`s Circle to Justinia or Leliana. The plot don`t allow us to do it. But a Viscount Hawke with a sister in the Circle would have found a way to reach Justinia. Leliana`s investigation in Act 3 was probably based on a report from Meredith about an underground mage movement. So it`s easy to expect that Justinia, after reading some damning evidence about the abuses happening in Kirkwall`s Circle would have put both reports together and dispatched Leliana to investigate the Circle first. Because it would have been obvious for her that oppressing the mages can lead to resistance movements. And Justinia wanted a better life for mages, not a war against them.
Would Justinia decide to assassinate Meredith (by Leliana) instead of relieving her from command? I don`t know. Perhaps. She has the skill to plan it, and Leliana would have done it. An assassination of Meredith by Hawke would have been possible, but doesn`t seem to me a good idea, because in that case Justinia would have been forced to act against Kirkwall. But a solution provided by Justinia is something else. And probably she would have also planned for the consequences (for instance, in case of an assassination by blaming a crazed templar). Justinia would have been eager to deal with both Elthina and Meredith once she have evidence that they are opposing her plans. Not to mention preventing a mage rebellion... You talk about a normal situation, where everyone behave as a logical people (and some metaknowledge). Divine Justinia knew about Kirkwall isn't safe. Hawke had chance to talk with the Divine's Left Hand, and had chance to inform her about Meredith's law-breaking. Why you think about, that a Viscount-Hawke would have more influence to Leliana, than the Champion of Kirkwall? Leliana was a spy, and for a spy the facts more important, that the rank... The point is: Leliana's visit don't brought change. Probably later, Divine Justinia would be able to do something against Meredith. But at the moment she didn't care about Meredith's methods, she did care about the rebel mages and blood mages. Everyone believe, that Divine Justinia wanted to protect every mages from her Templars. Yes, she wants change, but from her viewpoint for the changes needed calm. This is natural: she wanted global change, not local changes. Her long term goals seems served better not to interfere into the Templars' work. At the moment was important to push back the mages and Meredith was good on this. Anders, however, these goals did not knew, probably he would not have waited even when Hawke Viscount, but do nothing. Hawke also don't knew about Justinia's goals, only vould be able to see, that Leliana went back to Val Royeaux, just as Meredith's request for the Annulment, and Bethany in the Circle still not in safe. I can believe, that Justinia would have eliminated the abuses in the Circles, but for this she would need time. No, I didn't read the Asunder, I have only information fragments about that story. based on them Fiona and seeker Lambert was one of the cause, that the rebellion has spread, but as I said: I didn't read Asunder. I speak about the rebellion only the based on the DA2 story. But I know, the point: Not Anders started the rebellion alone. Justinia late. But aspect of Hawke, my informations is enough: I don't think, that Hawke and Anders would be able to know more about Justinia's plans, than me. Based on Hawke's information the peaceful solution is peacefully sit on a powder keg. The peaceful solution's Elthina's solution.
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 23, 2017 20:57:37 GMT
You talk about a normal situation, where everyone behave as a logical people (and some metaknowledge). Nah. I was making up a "what if" scenario roleplaying Hawke as a viscount, assuming he remembers every lore s(he) uncovered in the game up to that moment, and has the companions as aides. Which is realistic. Of course Hawke didn`t read "Asunder" or have knowledge about future events happening in Orlais concerning Divine Justinia. But I roleplayed considering a clever rogue Hawke, who learned how to read and persuade people from an early age (guided by Malcolm) in order to protect Bethany and her/his family. Especially after Malcolm`s death s(he) picked up his role as protector. Which is completely realistic to expect from an older Hawke, since Bethany and Carver are much younger, and while Leandra is a strong woman, she`s not exactly a leader. So Hawke became quite good at dealing with people before Ostagar. Now, your account about what could have happened if Hawke would have been viscount is quite gloomy, and more in tone with what actually happens in the game with Hawke as a private citizen. Which is not the best outcome, but what Bioware "allowed" to happen in order to "preserve" their desired outcome - the destruction of the Chantry in Kirkwall and the mage/templar war. It was realistic enough for the game - about what one can expect from a private citizen with limited resources. But that doesn`t mean Hawke is an incompetent idiot; just that the circumstances are against her/him. But given the right circumstances, Hawke can achive much more. It`s the same as to assume that the Warden and the Inquisitor are doomed to fail, because the odds are against them. Based on such thinking, DA:O`s story would have been Darkspawn Chronicles came true, DA2 would have been about Hawke running from the darkspawn from Kirkwall as well (and cursing the idiot who named the century Dragon Age instead of Darkspawn Age), and the events from DA:I would have never came to pass. Because there would have been no mage/templar war (all of them would be still busy fighting darkspawn) and Cory would be still sitting happily bounded in his prison. In DA2 Hawke fails because Bioware wanted her/him to fail. This is why they built the plot in such a way than Hawke never achieves political power in Kirkwall. So, I imagined an alternative scenario about giving Hawke a similar opportunity as the Warden or the Inquisitor received - being in command. As viscount, in Hawke`s case. Now, think about a clever, responsible, persuasive Hawke being viscount and deciding to help Kirkwall. Meredith is the main threat, and she is outside her/his jurisdiction. But under the Divine`s command, and there is a new Divine, who will probably want her own people in key positions. Hawke has 3 years to persuade the new Divine that something fishy is happening in Kirkwall`s Circle. There is a good chance than her/his report will reach the Divine first, before Meredith`s or any other report about a mage rebellion. More, thanks to Anders, it`s likely that the mage rebellion will stay quiet because there is a real hope to get rid of Meredith. Hawke don`t need meta-knowledge, just a bit of political know-how. Of course, Bioware had other plans. They set up a story for a Hawke capable of making a difference in Kirkwall, but not the same kind of difference as the Warden or the Inquisitor. But only because s(he) never enjoyed the same opportunities. As for Hawke`s companions, they all have their own life and careers. All are quite resourceful. Even Merrill, who trained for years to became Keeper, and can be a good Elder if persuaded.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 21:19:41 GMT
You talk about a normal situation, where everyone behave as a logical people (and some metaknowledge). Nah. I was making up a "what if" scenario roleplaying Hawke as a viscount, assuming he remembers every lore s(he) uncovered in the game up to that moment, and has the companions as aides. Which is realistic. Of course Hawke didn`t read "Asunder" or have knowledge about future events happening in Orlais concerning Divine Justinia. But I roleplayed considering a clever rogue Hawke, who learned how to read and persuade people from an early age (guided by Malcolm) in order to protect Bethany and her/his family. Especially after Malcolm`s death s(he) picked up his role as protector. Which is completely realistic to expect from an older Hawke, since Bethany and Carver are much younger, and while Leandra is a strong woman, she`s not exactly a leader. So Hawke became quite good at dealing with people before Ostagar. Now, your account about what could have happened if Hawke would have been viscount is quite gloomy, and more in tone with what actually happens in the game with Hawke as a private citizen. Which is not the best outcome, but what Bioware "allowed" to happen in order to "preserve" their desired outcome - the destruction of the Chantry in Kirkwall and the mage/templar war. It was realistic enough for the game - about what one can expect from a private citizen with limited resources. But that doesn`t mean Hawke is an incompetent idiot; just that the circumstances are against her/him. But given the right circumstances, Hawke can achive much more. It`s the same as to assume that the Warden and the Inquisitor are doomed to fail, because the odds are against them. Based on such thinking, DA:O`s story would have been Darkspawn Chronicles came true, DA2 would have been about Hawke running from the darkspawn from Kirkwall as well (and cursing the idiot who named the century Dragon Age instead of Darkspawn Age), and the events from DA:I would have never came to pass. Because there would have been no mage/templar war (all of them would be still busy fighting darkspawn) and Cory would be still sitting happily bounded in his prison. In DA2 Hawke fails because Bioware wanted her/him to fail. This is why they built the plot in such a way than Hawke never achieves political power in Kirkwall. So, I imagined an alternative scenario about giving Hawke a similar opportunity as the Warden or the Inquisitor received - being in command. As viscount, in Hawke`s case. Now, think about a clever, responsible, persuasive Hawke being viscount and deciding to help Kirkwall. Meredith is the main threat, and she is outside her/his jurisdiction. But under the Divine`s command, and there is a new Divine, who will probably want her own people in key positions. Hawke has 3 years to persuade the new Divine that something fishy is happening in Kirkwall`s Circle. There is a good chance than her/his report will reach the Divine first, before Meredith`s or any other report about a mage rebellion. More, thanks to Anders, it`s likely that the mage rebellion will stay quiet because there is a real hope to get rid of Meredith. Hawke don`t need meta-knowledge, just a bit of political know-how. Of course, Bioware had other plans. They set up a story for a Hawke capable of making a difference in Kirkwall, but not the same kind of difference as the Warden or the Inquisitor. But only because s(he) never enjoyed the same opportunities. As for Hawke`s companions, they all have their own life and careers. All are quite resourceful. Even Merrill, who trained for years to became Keeper, and can be a good Elder if persuaded. Okay: then Hawke became Vicomt. S/He and Anders met with Leliana and they handed over the evidences from Meredith's law-breaking, and persuade her to replace Meredith with Thrask. Suppose succeed. Anders probably calmed in a while, so Kirkwall is safe, everyone happy. Hawke don't want to investigate the idiot Carta-dwarfs, because too busy until they kidnap Bethany. So: s/he go after Bethany. S/He is very responsible person, so do not want let a chance to release an ancient evil. Defeats the cultists, with Larius help, strengthens the seal with his/her blood and die there in the Deeproads with his group and Bethany. The story's over. (My Hawke was a warrior. He KILLED who pursued Bethany. He's a very honest and provocative person: he don't lied to Meredith about Emile for example, rather confronted with her, and almost killed her, when blackmailed him with Bethany and threatened Anders. so: as viscount his way is the noble rebellion.)
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 23, 2017 21:45:19 GMT
(My Hawke was a warrior. He KILLED who pursued Bethany. He's a very honest and provocative person: he don't lied to Meredith about Emile for example, rather confronted with her, and almost killed her, when blackmailed him with Bethany and threatened Anders. so: as viscount his way is the noble rebellion.) Now you are roleplaying! As for how my Hawke will deal with Cory, that`s between Hawke and me. Still, I noticed you didn`t described how your Hawke handled Legacy...
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2017 21:57:01 GMT
(My Hawke was a warrior. He KILLED who pursued Bethany. He's a very honest and provocative person: he don't lied to Meredith about Emile for example, rather confronted with her, and almost killed her, when blackmailed him with Bethany and threatened Anders. so: as viscount his way is the noble rebellion.) Now you are roleplaying! As for how my Hawke will deal with Cory, that`s between Hawke and me. Still, I noticed you didn`t described how your Hawke handled Legacy... Killed Corypheus. Ofc... What could be wrong with it?
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Post by fenris on Jan 25, 2017 11:54:07 GMT
Also - best soundtrack of the three games!
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Post by darkstorne on Jan 26, 2017 15:37:38 GMT
I often wonder what an extra year of dev time, and current gen instead of last gen consoles, would have done for this game. Imagine Kirkwall and its surroundings being one massive map, like Velen and the city of Novigrad in the Witcher 3. No loading screens, no constant re-use of the same locations, and no cut and rushed story content.
It's weird being able to see the greatness of this game underneath its rough exterior, and appreciating how amazing the core story was despite how poorly it was implemented. Seems to be a trend with each game in this series though, excelling in some areas and massively failing in others. DA2 is definitely my favourite of the series, but I can't wait for the day that Bioware releases a Dragon Age game and gets EVERYTHING right: Story, characters, combat, environment design, all handled brilliantly. I DARE TO DREAM!
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Post by fylimar on Jan 26, 2017 20:24:53 GMT
I love DA2. I think, I played it the most of all DA games. I like the setting, the characters, my sarcastic female Hawkes. I have at least 3 out of 5 romances I like (Fenris, Isabella and Anders)and a lot of great companions (I really dislike Sebastian andI'm not the biggest Merrill fan, but she has at least some funny lines). I would have hoped for a more diversed ending: Anders blowing up the chantry no matter what, is a bit stupid. It would have been more believable, if he weren't a companion, you know for 7 years. Take Samson for example: you cross his path a few times and he is even coming to your aid - and I myself was really surprised, when he turned up in Inquisition as the right hand of the big bad (well the second big bad). They should have handled Anders similar: don't make him an companion, but a sympathetic npc or a short time companion like Tallis. Then he vanishes and comes back with a 'boom' And wont mention Orsino turning into a Harvester even in the mage ending, it's dissapointing. Luckily there is a mod out, that fixes it. But those points can't keep me from replaying repeatedly
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Post by Catilina on Jan 27, 2017 2:02:16 GMT
I love DA2. I think, I played it the most of all DA games. I like the setting, the characters, my sarcastic female Hawkes. I have at least 3 out of 5 romances I like (Fenris, Isabella and Anders)and a lot of great companions (I really dislike Sebastian andI'm not the biggest Merrill fan, but she has at least some funny lines). I would have hoped for a more diversed ending: Anders blowing up the chantry no matter what, is a bit stupid. It would have been more believable, if he weren't a companion, you know for 7 years. Take Samson for example: you cross his path a few times and he is even coming to your aid - and I myself was really surprised, when he turned up in Inquisition as the right hand of the big bad (well the second big bad). They should have handled Anders similar: don't make him an companion, but a sympathetic npc or a short time companion like Tallis. Then he vanishes and comes back with a 'boom' And wont mention Orsino turning into a Harvester even in the mage ending, it's dissapointing. Luckily there is a mod out, that fixes it. But those points can't keep me from replaying repeatedly Orsino's fate seems stupid, but somehow I can explain. The whole story's about the despair. Orsino at the moment did not trust anymore in victory, and don't wanted to be slave anymore. The last thing he wanted to prove, it has long been he had been able to break out, but he didn't. Or something similar. The point is, this wasn't a logical logical action, rather a theatrical suicide. Orsino finally lost his mind. Or the writers simply wanted to compensate Meredith's madness, because Anders' action wasn't enough to prove, that every mages are idiot... even who want to protect them...
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 4:15:58 GMT
Orsino's fate seems stupid, but somehow I can explain. The whole story's about the despair. Orsino at the moment did not trust anymore in victory, and don't wanted to be slave anymore. The last thing he wanted to prove, it has long been he had been able to break out, but he didn't. Or something similar. The point is, this wasn't a logical logical action, rather a theatrical suicide. Orsino finally lost his mind. Or the writers simply wanted to compensate Meredith's madness, because Anders' action wasn't enough to prove, that every mages are idiot... even who want to protect them... The main goal for Bioware in case of DA2 was to have the same ending regardless of Hawke`s actions: The Kirkwall Chantry destroyed by Anders, Elthina killed, Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment, Orsino and Meredith dead, mage-templar war. That was the setting they wanted for the next chapter, which probably was the never released "The Exalted March". After DA:O Bioware realized the mess they created by allowing different endings and wanted that door closed. They could have chosen alternatives - like placing DA2 further in time. Say Malcolm led the Hawkes out of Ferelden, and after his death Hawke assume leadership and DA2 begins proper. The time interval gained would be enough to "reorganize" the player decisions from DA:O into a similar "state of the world". LIke making bann Teagan the new King of Ferelden, lord Helmi the new King of Orzamar. This kind of things. Time changes things... Funny was that BW toiled hard to "create" the mage-templar war with DA2 and then changed the whole plot by unleashing Corypheus in DA:I, making the conflict between mages and templars more like a Sunday afternoon squabble...
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Post by darkstorne on Jan 27, 2017 10:43:53 GMT
I love DA2. I think, I played it the most of all DA games. I like the setting, the characters, my sarcastic female Hawkes. I have at least 3 out of 5 romances I like (Fenris, Isabella and Anders)and a lot of great companions (I really dislike Sebastian andI'm not the biggest Merrill fan, but she has at least some funny lines). I would have hoped for a more diversed ending: Anders blowing up the chantry no matter what, is a bit stupid. It would have been more believable, if he weren't a companion, you know for 7 years. Take Samson for example: you cross his path a few times and he is even coming to your aid - and I myself was really surprised, when he turned up in Inquisition as the right hand of the big bad (well the second big bad). They should have handled Anders similar: don't make him an companion, but a sympathetic npc or a short time companion like Tallis. Then he vanishes and comes back with a 'boom' And wont mention Orsino turning into a Harvester even in the mage ending, it's dissapointing. Luckily there is a mod out, that fixes it. But those points can't keep me from replaying repeatedly Orsino's fate seems stupid, but somehow I can explain. The whole story's about the despair. Orsino at the moment did not trust anymore in victory, and don't wanted to be slave anymore. The last thing he wanted to prove, it has long been he had been able to break out, but he didn't. Or something similar. The point is, this wasn't a logical logical action, rather a theatrical suicide. Orsino finally lost his mind. Or the writers simply wanted to compensate Meredith's madness, because Anders' action wasn't enough to prove, that every mages are idiot... even who want to protect them... Yeah, I can understand what they were going for - Orsino realized it was too late by this point. Even if they could resist Meredith someone else would take her place, and probably with a bigger Templar army. Factor Sebastian into the mix with his intention of mobilizing a Starkhaven army, and how the rest of Thedas would react to an apostate blowing up the Kirkwall chantry and the future is clearly very bleak for mages. Orsino is also a bit of a **** anyway, having known about the blood mage who was kidnapping and murdering women (including your own mother) and congratulating him on his experiments, so he basically just reached breaking point and thought " screw this, there's no chance of peace for mages from now on, even without Meredith in the picture." The biggest problem was Bioware's implementation of Orsino's story. He didn't get much screen time, a lot of players missed his involvement in the zombie-mum plot, and instead of coming across as equally messed up as Meredith he seemed more like a white knight who randomly embraced blood magic from out of nowhere. Both Orsino and Meredith would have benefited from extra (and earlier) screen time, maybe with two quests utilizing them each as a fifth companion for a short while so you can actually get to know them a little better (Meredith before her lyrium corruption, so you see her in a better light, and Orsino trying to defend blood magic similar to Merrill so he comes across as more morally grey).
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Post by adrianbc on Jan 27, 2017 11:10:08 GMT
The biggest problem was Bioware's implementation of Orsino's story. He didn't get much screen time, a lot of players missed his involvement in the zombie-mum plot, and instead of coming across as equally messed up as Meredith he seemed more like a white knight who randomly embraced blood magic from out of nowhere. Both Orsino and Meredith would have benefited from extra (and earlier) screen time, maybe with two quests utilizing them each as a fifth companion for a short while so you can actually get to know them a little better (Meredith before her lyrium corruption, so you see her in a better light, and Orsino trying to defend blood magic similar to Merrill so he comes across as more morally grey). This sounds like a very good idea for me! Bioware wanted the game focused exclusively on Hawke - more exactly on the "Tale of Champion" told by Varric, leaving out everything "irrelevant". Like DA:O had only a few cutscenes of "meanwhile...", DA2 had those at the beginning of every act (the Varric slideshow). So we have no idea what happens with the important characters in Kirkwall (Dumar, Arishok, Elthina, Meredith, Orsino). Especially Meredith and Orsino lack screen time, as you already said. Since the game main outcome and decision is about mages vs templars, some quests directly involving each of them would have been extremely useful. Bioware knew this: we had those two short scenes with Meredith and Orsino during the qunari attack. Both are lame and unrealistic (for instance, my Hawke learned soon in DA2 to cover every part of the battlefield, so there was no way to be surprised by a Saarebas), and these are practically the only scenes we see both Meredith and Orsino in action before the final crisis. And BW expected us to decide between the two. Bioware missed a lot of opportunities with Dragon Age 2. Some requiring very few resources. I for instance would have loved more crazy scenes like that imaginary one between Varric and Bartrand at Bartrand`s mansion in Act 2...
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Post by fylimar on Jan 27, 2017 12:06:21 GMT
Orsino's fate seems stupid, but somehow I can explain. The whole story's about the despair. Orsino at the moment did not trust anymore in victory, and don't wanted to be slave anymore. The last thing he wanted to prove, it has long been he had been able to break out, but he didn't. Or something similar. The point is, this wasn't a logical logical action, rather a theatrical suicide. Orsino finally lost his mind. Or the writers simply wanted to compensate Meredith's madness, because Anders' action wasn't enough to prove, that every mages are idiot... even who want to protect them... Yeah, I can understand what they were going for - Orsino realized it was too late by this point. Even if they could resist Meredith someone else would take her place, and probably with a bigger Templar army. Factor Sebastian into the mix with his intention of mobilizing a Starkhaven army, and how the rest of Thedas would react to an apostate blowing up the Kirkwall chantry and the future is clearly very bleak for mages. Orsino is also a bit of a **** anyway, having known about the blood mage who was kidnapping and murdering women (including your own mother) and congratulating him on his experiments, so he basically just reached breaking point and thought " screw this, there's no chance of peace for mages from now on, even without Meredith in the picture." The biggest problem was Bioware's implementation of Orsino's story. He didn't get much screen time, a lot of players missed his involvement in the zombie-mum plot, and instead of coming across as equally messed up as Meredith he seemed more like a white knight who randomly embraced blood magic from out of nowhere. Both Orsino and Meredith would have benefited from extra (and earlier) screen time, maybe with two quests utilizing them each as a fifth companion for a short while so you can actually get to know them a little better (Meredith before her lyrium corruption, so you see her in a better light, and Orsino trying to defend blood magic similar to Merrill so he comes across as more morally grey). About that 'zombie-mum' plot: I guess, it is a bit more complicated: As far as I get it from the game, Orsino was in so far involved, that he knew about Quentins research and that Quentin wants to revive his dead wife - which is morally grey, agreed. I'm pretty sure, he didn't know about Quentin murdering people to reach his goal (Quentin would probably not wrote to the first enchanter of one of the strictest circles of magi that he killed woman to get the needed body parts), at least not in the mage ending, maybe they changed that in the templar ending, which would be stupid too. So yes, he helped a bloodmage who was an old friend (a bit like Hawke helping Anders, because he is her friend and she trusts him), probably trusting that friend, that he wouldn't hurt anyone (I mean, the wife was already dead). The whole Harvester plot at the end was just unbealievable - how should Orsino have done that? Is it enough to mutter some spell and slit ones wrist? In that case: why haven't we see more Harvesters roaming the streets if it is that simple? And even if he did know about what Quentin did (I would think, he heard of the murders, when it became puplic and drew the right conclusions), it's one think to keep this knowledge for himself, but another completely to willingly become a monster. Orsino certainly know how to manipulate people, he did that with Hawke too, to make her taking his side. Meredith used threats (either against Hawke, if she is a mage or against Bethany or mage companions otherwise) to get Hawke to do the dirty work, Orsino used manipulation. This is also in answer to Catilina : I think, the true reason, Orsino was made Harvester in the end, was that BW wanted a second bossfight, not anticipating, that player might be offende by that. Imean, you help the mages, won two battles already and then Mr. First Enchanter decides to loose his mind? It would have been better, if they wanted to keep teh boss fights, to make Orsino histile from the beginning, maybe him and Meredith starting to fight each other - she uses her red lyrium powers, he goes Harvester and give Hawke instead of Orsino Sol as the mage contact in the gallows, he was already an ally throughout the game. Problem solved. Sorry for that long post, but the 'Orsino-incident' still makes me mad and I do like Orsino with all his flaws, he is still a better character than Sebastian for me , better morally grey than boring, at least in games
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 27, 2017 13:20:19 GMT
Orsino's fate seems stupid, but somehow I can explain. The whole story's about the despair. Orsino at the moment did not trust anymore in victory, and don't wanted to be slave anymore. The last thing he wanted to prove, it has long been he had been able to break out, but he didn't. Or something similar. The point is, this wasn't a logical logical action, rather a theatrical suicide. Orsino finally lost his mind. Or the writers simply wanted to compensate Meredith's madness, because Anders' action wasn't enough to prove, that every mages are idiot... even who want to protect them... Yeah, I can understand what they were going for - Orsino realized it was too late by this point. Even if they could resist Meredith someone else would take her place, and probably with a bigger Templar army. Factor Sebastian into the mix with his intention of mobilizing a Starkhaven army, and how the rest of Thedas would react to an apostate blowing up the Kirkwall chantry and the future is clearly very bleak for mages. Orsino is also a bit of a **** anyway, having known about the blood mage who was kidnapping and murdering women (including your own mother) and congratulating him on his experiments, so he basically just reached breaking point and thought " screw this, there's no chance of peace for mages from now on, even without Meredith in the picture." The biggest problem was Bioware's implementation of Orsino's story. He didn't get much screen time, a lot of players missed his involvement in the zombie-mum plot, and instead of coming across as equally messed up as Meredith he seemed more like a white knight who randomly embraced blood magic from out of nowhere. Both Orsino and Meredith would have benefited from extra (and earlier) screen time, maybe with two quests utilizing them each as a fifth companion for a short while so you can actually get to know them a little better (Meredith before her lyrium corruption, so you see her in a better light, and Orsino trying to defend blood magic similar to Merrill so he comes across as more morally grey). Orsino tried to be loyal to mages, and to the Circle. It looks it was difficult for him. He tried to keep a balance in a hard situation. Orsino knew, that Quentin studies forbidden magical disciplines, but not that Quentin is the serial killer (in most cases, even the family do not know about it). Probably Quentin wasn't aware of the details of Emeric's investigation as well. Why Orsino didn't betrayed Quentin due his studies? Better question in Orsino's situation is: why he would do such a thing? He tryed to keep the Circle in peace, but he wasn't loyal to Meredith. Maybe this was thoughtless thing on his part, but absolutely understandable. This was his passive resistance. The active resistance was, when he spoke against Meredith at the beginning the Act 3. His act more sympathetic than reprehensible. Meredith never looked white knight: she abused her power, she was lawbreaker – as "defender of the law", and she don't have acceptable explanation for these acts: tranquilizing the Mages, who succeed their Harrowing – for petty "sins") this is bigger sin, than if a slave became "lawbreaker", but probably my opinion is too radical in this viewpoint) But you're right, many people would able to identified every mages as Quentin, when Meredith draws Hawke's attention that his/her mother was killed by a mage (and Fenris, and Anders also – there are an answer, when he loses confidence for a moment due Quentin's act in the scene of consolation, if he is Hawke's love), but this is nonsense: we can't blame every woodcutters because of an axe-murderer's sins (even if that was a woodcutter...) – or if we do it, then we have a little chance to become a serial killer of the woodcutters... So: Quentin was the serial killer, not the "mages" – this was a manipulation of Meredith (and ofc: Bioware writers), this is clear. Summa summaum: Meredith was darker person, than Orsino ever was, even with blood magic. (Blood magic only a –dangerous!– tool, not more. And very effective against the Templars... this is why the Circle Mages risk losing the use this tool.) I never seen Meredith as white knight, because she was corrupt and have political power over the City, and she was not able to give up her position, for the sake of the law when she was the leader of the defender of the law. This isn't a white knight... this is a dark knight, with dirty tools, and for this knowledge we don't need to know from the lyrium corruption. More than enough to see her own corruption. Neither Orsino, nor Meredith are innocent and "white". Orsino made an omission, but this understandable in his position. A slave does not belong with loyalty to his master, Orsino was too loyal in my eyes, we can not expect more from him, even if he was the senior slave. In contrast, Meredith have power and tools for a less cruel regulation, but she considered mages as enemy against whom any method permitted (no matter what said with teary-eyed sometimes – we can experience, how manipulative she can be, for example when se blackmail Hawke with his/her sister, and at the gallows, when she says, that her heart is broken – but already sent the request for the Annulment).
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