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Post by oyabun on Feb 10, 2017 21:26:37 GMT
I don't think so.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 10, 2017 22:22:46 GMT
If he denies that than he was just Lying,unless killing old gods means create Archdemons. Solas deceptions and lies are primarily lies of omission, rather than outright attempts to mislead. I honestly believe him when he refutes the assumption that his concern is only for the spirits that would be twisted into demons. Solas, imo atleast, is concerned about the old gods and their possible annihilation. He clearly states that the GW completely misunderstand, what the blight is and what relation it has to the Old gods. It put me in mind of someone who has a more intimate knowledge, trying desperately to dissuade less informed people from making a massive error in judgement, while not giving away that he possess knowledge that he shouldn't (for who and what he claims to be) Theres no way to prove definitively that the Old Gods and either the Evanuris or Forgotten ones, are one and same. All we can do is speculate, but there are alot of parallels between them and of all the characters we've met thus far, Solas and Mythal are the most informed and smack bang in the middle of events. I think the links will bear out some connection, what shape it will take will depend on the writers I guess. I still think the blight might be related to the Titans, rather than the old gods. And therefore less linked to the magisters or Tevinter than the chantry would have people believe. Solas mislead the whole Inquisition for the whole time he even had spies within the Organization. As for a the old gods,the argument he made make no sense,5 of them were corrupted and removed and Thedas is still there.....where are these consequences other than old gods not being there anymore?
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 11, 2017 7:57:45 GMT
Solas deceptions and lies are primarily lies of omission, rather than outright attempts to mislead. I honestly believe him when he refutes the assumption that his concern is only for the spirits that would be twisted into demons. Solas, imo atleast, is concerned about the old gods and their possible annihilation. He clearly states that the GW completely misunderstand, what the blight is and what relation it has to the Old gods. It put me in mind of someone who has a more intimate knowledge, trying desperately to dissuade less informed people from making a massive error in judgement, while not giving away that he possess knowledge that he shouldn't (for who and what he claims to be) Theres no way to prove definitively that the Old Gods and either the Evanuris or Forgotten ones, are one and same. All we can do is speculate, but there are alot of parallels between them and of all the characters we've met thus far, Solas and Mythal are the most informed and smack bang in the middle of events. I think the links will bear out some connection, what shape it will take will depend on the writers I guess. I still think the blight might be related to the Titans, rather than the old gods. And therefore less linked to the magisters or Tevinter than the chantry would have people believe. Solas mislead the whole Inquisition for the whole time he even had spies within the Organization. As for a the old gods,the argument he made make no sense,5 of them were corrupted and removed and Thedas is still there.....where are these consequences other than old gods not being there anymore? Solas indeed misleads the inquisition and the inquisitor, as to his purpose, his involvement in events and his identity. But his deceptions are meant to obfuscate these details. He doesn't seek to shift blame to anybody else, but to hide those mentioned details. Many of his opinions and the expression of his thoughts are very upfront, insofar as they don't expose the truth of who he is and what he is doing. It's why, although he is deceptive, I tend to give weight to much of what he says. Thats not to say that his opinions should be taken as fact, but that what he says is honestly what he believes to be so. If nothing else, Solas is a being of conviction, just as Cassandra is of the same nature. There can be no doubt that, as a being from an age long since past, he has a personal experience and perspective, on aspects of Thedas and it's denizens, be they of the fade or the real world, that are bound to hold an element of truth, or atleast his interpretation of it, that can be found virtually nowhere else. To dismiss everything that he says, as a lie, based upon the virtue of the fact he seeks to hide his true identity and his involvement in the whole Corypheus debacle, would be a mistake, imo. It comes down to whether you can see past the fact he hides so much (in order to protect his identity and allow him to do what he honestly believes to be necessary to right his previous mistakes) to recognise that Solas, for all his knowledge and power, is a good man, with good intentions, that has a really bad habit of making bad decisions. This is why I think he is so vehement in regards to the grey wardens in Here Lies the Abyss. He understands something of the nature of either, the blight or the old gods, or both, that allows him to recognise a great mistake in the making, on the part of the grey wardens and the reasoning behind their plan, that goes beyond the twisting of spirits into the demons. It has more to do with a well intentioned mistake or assumption, that he himself can identify, not only because of his knowledge, but also because he too, knows what it is to make a drastic choice, thinking it for the greater good, only to have it result in unintended consequences for the very people the Grey Wardens seek to protect. It parallels his own grave mistake in erecting the veil and inadvertently, destroying the very people he sought to save, with unintended consequences. An act that I suspect Solas deeply resents and curses himself for. As to what knowledge he possess that few others do, regarding the Old Gods or the Blight, as I said before, we can only speculate, as we haven't enough information to make a solid guess just yet, but from inference alone, from his reaction and from other aspects of lore that DA:I has revealed, that there is more than meets the eye going on with both the blight and the old gods, we can assume, that Solas may not be entirely incorrect that, destroying the old gods en masse, before they can trigger blights, may not be the best course of action and may infact, have unforeseen consequences that could potentially be more disastrous than the very blights the Grey Wardens seek to prevent. So if you completely distrust Solas and think that everything he says and does is lies and deception, then you would dismiss prety much everything he says, as more of the same. But if like me, you admit that he is quite capable of deception (on a very large scale) but believe that he is possessed of a conviction (whether that conviction or his cause is right or just, is neither here nor there, it's about what Solas believes) Than you might be given pause to think, that perhaps, while he lies about who he is, much of what he says in game and the opinions he expresses are genuine opinions, based upon real (first hand) experience and knowledge, that shouldn't be dismissed so readily. Ofcourse it's upto each person to make that call and play it out in their games, there is no right way to regard it, just different choices and thats all dependant on whether Bioware does the lore any justice in future installments in the series. We'll all have to wait and see, where they will take everything.
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Post by akiza on Feb 11, 2017 11:57:38 GMT
As to what knowledge he possess that few others do, regarding the Old Gods or the Blight, as I said before, we can only speculate, as we haven't enough information to make a solid guess just yet, but from inference alone, from his reaction and from other aspects of lore that DA:I has revealed, that there is more than meets the eye going on with both the blight and the old gods, we can assume, that Solas may not be entirely incorrect that, destroying the old gods en masse, before they can trigger blights, may not be the best course of action and may infact, have unforeseen consequences that could potentially be more disastrous than the very blights the Grey Wardens seek to prevent. I'm willing to agree with them that the Old Gods should be preserved, if and only if they tell me their rationale and give a better one than "magic should be preserved regardless of the danger." As for Solas, I'm just ignoring what he thinks is best entirely until given reason to do otherwise. His view of what should happen is that the Veil is eliminated, which is apparently implied to be going to kill a whole bunch of people and is outright stated will allow spirits to manifest wherever. That sounds like the sort of thing that causes demons to pop up at random places and "[empty] the... countryside of everyone who's not sleeping in their armor." I don't know that any of them can be trusted to want to preserve the Old Gods for the reason of preventing bad things from happening, when in each of their cases we have reason to believe that they want to preserve and encourage magic whether or not bad things happen as a result of it.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 11, 2017 19:02:36 GMT
I fair enough point of view. For me, I felt it's more a case of, don't rush to wipe out the ancient magical beings, whose natures we don't yet understand, angle. Certainly, preserving dangerous magical "whatevers" would be something that would have to be carefully weighed on the basis of cost. I wouldn't suggest preserving one dragon, for example, if it meant the sacrifice of tens of thousands of people. But if that one dragon was all that stood between Thedas continued existance and it's annihlation, I might just make a different choice.
Solas and indeed, Mythal, both express a desire to preserve the ancient beings of the world and again, the inference is that they have good reasons for doing so and not simply, "because they are magical" Solas, literally can't reveal more, without revealing his nature and identity and in a way, his future plans. Mythal is more inscrutable by nature, she has her own agenda and it's larger in scope than any of the Dragon Age characters we have yet played, could hope to imagine. She has the luxury of not having to tell anyone anything, she's ahead of the game, why show her hand? For us mere mortals, we have to play catch up before we can make any moves of real design or importance, in regards to the ancient secrets of the world of Thedas and movers and shakers there-in.
I prefer my characters to not blunder about loping off heads, willy-nilly, when the results of which are not clear or atleast, reasonably within the realm of a good bit of guess work or a leap of faith based on sound reasoning.
As to Solas plans. I really hope we get a more concrete idea of what exactly the world was like prior to the veil. Clearly at some time, the elves managed to exist, indeed flourish, in a world in which spirits and mortals (well kind of, since elves were immortal, but of the long lived variety as oppossed to the, can't die variety) co-existed. So the reality of such an existance, would suggest that it is possible to co-exist in such a world and perhaps, in the universe of Dragon Age, was the way the world was meant to be. Would demons be so prevelant, if they no longer had to hunger for the real world, banished as they are in the fade, on the outside looking in (I suspect that demons would still exist but in different ways and fewer numbers.) Mortals in current day Thedas, just don't get spirits and other denizens of the fade, and so inadvertently create demons, by summoning and by expectation and will shaping them as so.
When Solas speaks of bringing down the veil, we assume it would outright destroy the world, or remake it, into that which it should always have been?
Now don't think I'm advocating Solas plan, but I am saying, that I'd like to understand exactly what the world, before the veil was really like, what it would mean for the modern peoples of Thedas, to exist in such a world and the only people who can elucidate on the matter are Solas and Mythal.
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Post by akiza on Feb 12, 2017 0:53:03 GMT
I fair enough point of view. For me, I felt it's more a case of, don't rush to wipe out the ancient magical beings, whose natures we don't yet understand, angle. Certainly, preserving dangerous magical "whatevers" would be something that would have to be carefully weighed on the basis of cost. I wouldn't suggest preserving one dragon, for example, if it meant the sacrifice of tens of thousands of people. But if that one dragon was all that stood between Thedas continued existance and it's annihlation, I might just make a different choice. Solas and indeed, Mythal, both express a desire to preserve the ancient beings of the world and again, the inference is that they have good reasons for doing so and not simply, "because they are magical" Solas, literally can't reveal more, without revealing his nature and identity and in a way, his future plans. Mythal is more inscrutable by nature, she has her own agenda and it's larger in scope than any of the Dragon Age characters we have yet played, could hope to imagine. She has the luxury of not having to tell anyone anything, she's ahead of the game, why show her hand? For us mere mortals, we have to play catch up before we can make any moves of real design or importance, in regards to the ancient secrets of the world of Thedas and movers and shakers there-in. I prefer my characters to not blunder about loping off heads, willy-nilly, when the results of which are not clear or atleast, reasonably within the realm of a good bit of guess work or a leap of faith based on sound reasoning. I am aware that they imply they don't want it, but do they say anything that implies there will be worse consequences than an ancient being of magic being permanently destroyed? They are Vital to whom exactly? For Thedas or for themselves? Let's say it is vital for Thedas. In what way? How can an Old God can possibly save Thedas? On the other hand, we still don't know the nature of the Old Gods except for Solas and Flemeth. They have the knowledge and what's to stop them from using the soul for their own personal gain/s? The Old Gods seem like nothing but trouble, and snuffing them out in their sleep before the darkspawn can get their blighty claws on them seems like as good a plan as any, provided it can actually be done and if Flemeth or Solas have any objection they can bloody well explain that instead of judging them for doing the thing that makes sense in the context of what they knows. What I was saying (based on my misunderstanding of your post) was that if those two think the Wardens are foolish for sentencing the Old Gods to death in such a circumstance, maybe they should have actually explained the situation. But seriously, is there any evidence that the two of them know anything like this? I asked , but I don't remember anyone answering.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 12, 2017 9:54:17 GMT
I fair enough point of view. For me, I felt it's more a case of, don't rush to wipe out the ancient magical beings, whose natures we don't yet understand, angle. Certainly, preserving dangerous magical "whatevers" would be something that would have to be carefully weighed on the basis of cost. I wouldn't suggest preserving one dragon, for example, if it meant the sacrifice of tens of thousands of people. But if that one dragon was all that stood between Thedas continued existance and it's annihlation, I might just make a different choice. Solas and indeed, Mythal, both express a desire to preserve the ancient beings of the world and again, the inference is that they have good reasons for doing so and not simply, "because they are magical" Solas, literally can't reveal more, without revealing his nature and identity and in a way, his future plans. Mythal is more inscrutable by nature, she has her own agenda and it's larger in scope than any of the Dragon Age characters we have yet played, could hope to imagine. She has the luxury of not having to tell anyone anything, she's ahead of the game, why show her hand? For us mere mortals, we have to play catch up before we can make any moves of real design or importance, in regards to the ancient secrets of the world of Thedas and movers and shakers there-in. I prefer my characters to not blunder about loping off heads, willy-nilly, when the results of which are not clear or atleast, reasonably within the realm of a good bit of guess work or a leap of faith based on sound reasoning. I am aware that they imply they don't want it, but do they say anything that implies there will be worse consequences than an ancient being of magic being permanently destroyed? They are Vital to whom exactly? For Thedas or for themselves? Let's say it is vital for Thedas. In what way? How can an Old God can possibly save Thedas? On the other hand, we still don't know the nature of the Old Gods except for Solas and Flemeth. They have the knowledge and what's to stop them from using the soul for their own personal gain/s? The Old Gods seem like nothing but trouble, and snuffing them out in their sleep before the darkspawn can get their blighty claws on them seems like as good a plan as any, provided it can actually be done and if Flemeth or Solas have any objection they can bloody well explain that instead of judging them for doing the thing that makes sense in the context of what they knows. What I was saying (based on my misunderstanding of your post) was that if those two think the Wardens are foolish for sentencing the Old Gods to death in such a circumstance, maybe they should have actually explained the situation. But seriously, is there any evidence that the two of them know anything like this? I asked , but I don't remember anyone answering. Your absolutely right in what you say, when you point out that neither Flemeth, nor Solas emphatically say that to destroy the old gods would be in everybodies worst interests. It is only infered. Mostly by Solas, who shows more concern for the overall wellbeing of the people of Thedas, ironically considering his agenda. But then we have to consider that Solas agenda involves the restoration of the elves and the world as it was, when the elvhenan were at their fullest potential. As such, he has got good reason to push for the preservation, of the elves, if not everybody else. The fact that he expresses such an empassioned outcry at the prospect of the destruction of the old gods and what it might entail for all the people of Thedas, implies to me atleast, that maybe it's worth sitting up to listen. Ofcourse, Solas is hardly forthcoming with substantative information to back up his opinion, but I put that down to the fact that he is in deep hiding at this point. Even with an inquisitor with whom he is romantically involved, he isn't, at the moment of Here Lies the Abyss, in a position where he feels secure enough to reveal just how much he knows. The stakes are too high and the risk too great. As to the problem with destroying the old gods and what possible consequences that might come about from such an act, as the series has progressed, we are having a broader picture of what exactly, the blight might be, revealed to us. In DA:O it is heavily implied the blight is indeed a result of the makers will, that it is targeted at the old gods and mortals for their crimes and that, with each Old God corrupted and ArchDemon defeated, the blights eventual neutralisation draws ever closer. But in DA:2 we are introduced to red lyrium, in a long forgotten thaig, that is likely, pre-first blight. Indeed, the thaig in question may even predate the magisters walking in the golden city. In DA:I we learn that red lyrium has the blight. So which came first? The blight itself, or the Lyrium that has been infected by blight? If the blight has been around since before the magisters walked the golden city, is it even connected to the old gods in the manner that many within Thedas believe it to be, as we have been lead to believe. What if, when the old gods are all finally corrupted and the final Arch Demon is slain for good, the blight doesn't end? What if, leaderless, and without direction from the old gods calling, the blight is unleashed in ernst, a never ending tidal surge of blighted creatures loosed upon the world, no longer distracted by the call of the old gods, forcing the darkspawn to divert their attentions to digging in the earth, blindly. For there is no Archdemon to be slain, thus driving the darkspawn back beneath the earth in search of the next old god, for they have all been destroyed? The reality is, that what we (and the people of Thedas) have been led to believe about the blight, might be all wrong. Both its origin, its purpose and its final solution are more complex than we have all been led to believe. Or so I suspect. What Solas and Flemeth both seem to allude to. Flemeth, I think, regards herself above the issue. She is already living in a broken world, how much more broken it might become is secondary to getting the revenge upon the Evanuris who betrayed and slew her. Solas seeks to restore the Elven people, as such, anything that threatens that goal, or the elves in general, is going to be high on his list of priorities. Hence, his inferences are that much more clearer (than fFlemeths atleast) I suspect the blight has more to do with the Titans and the Evanuris, than it ever did with the magisters. It's link to the Old Gods, might be cirumstantial, or it might be more meaningful, depending on the nature of the Old gods themselves.
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Post by Prince on Feb 13, 2017 6:09:32 GMT
All I care about is saving people from blights and ensure for Old Gods to not be able to come back. I don't care about why or some metaphysical discovery about the lore behind it. At this point, I think this world is OURS. No one else's. I'm not here to preserve anything, but save the life that thrives and makes a home here. Kind of the same thing I'd say to Solas as well.
They duped their own followers... one which was so pissed he tried to destroy the world himself. We just need to close the chapter on these fools. Maybe I'll get a down to earth story again.
Either way, the Old Gods aren't worth saving... I mean, for what? And I want a REAL answer not just
"They are worth saving because Solas said so"
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 13, 2017 11:29:10 GMT
I think at the very least we will find out more about what happened to them, if not actually getting to see them.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 14, 2017 8:33:50 GMT
All I care about is saving people from blights and ensure for Old Gods to not be able to come back. I don't care about why or some metaphysical discovery about the lore behind it. At this point, I think this world is OURS. No one else's. I'm not here to preserve anything, but save the life that thrives and makes a home here. Kind of the same thing I'd say to Solas as well. They duped their own followers... one which was so pissed he tried to destroy the world himself. We just need to close the chapter on these fools. Maybe I'll get a down to earth story again. Either way, the Old Gods aren't worth saving... I mean, for what? And I want a REAL answer not just "They are worth saving because Solas said so" I can get that, I do understand what people are saying about how every Bioware game of late, has become an overly enflated quest to save the world! Each and everytime, be it Mass Effect or Dragon Age. It can strain credulity, to have to save the world at every turn and a more down to earth, beat a bad guy outing would be a nice change of pace and focus, particularly since many rpgs tend to veer off in this direction, nowadays. That said, I don't mind the epic, overly wrought, save the universe stories, so long as they are done well, with an eye to consistant complexity, as they allow for an exploration of some different ideas, to the more personal ones we tend to find in more, small scale, realistic adventures. Dragon Age, has gone down the epic overly wrought route and I don't think it will make a change of course now. It would be too hard for Bioware to change gear at this point. Not to suggest it could never happen, I just don't see it happening in the forseeable future. As to the blight, as I said above, without knowing where the blight comes from and what purpose it serves, it can be difficult to know how best to go about stopping it. I like that Bioware are saying, it might not be as simple as we have led you to believe. I like that they are asking the question, are you willing to take responsibility for trying to the right thing for the right reason, only to have the right thing be something else entirely. The choice you made was infact wrong, how are you going to take responsibility for that choice, what will you do in the face of that error. Becuase what you say, in regards to wanting to stop the blight and stop the old gods being the only thing that matters to you, thats very likely the thinking that spurred Solas/The Dread wolf, to do what he did back in the day, when he errected the veil to destroy the Evanuris and save his people from oppression. That was all he cared about and he took action, only for it to go sideways and ruin the people he hoped to save. Now he is panicking and trying to make it right. Would we not do the same? IF we sought to end the blight, by killing old gods, only to have it go so wrong as to make things a thousand times worse, would we not then be seeking to make it right? Just like Solas is doing. It's a nice parallel to our own circumstances that encourages us to see Solas in a different light. To make him more believeable than your standard black hat villain. And to ask the question, are we willing to do the same thing he did, make a hasty decision, because it seems the simplest and easiest solution to a difficult problem. To me, DA:I has a very central theme of taking responsibility. Owning our mistakes as much as our successes, doing what has to be done, while everyone else about us is distracted by the minutae of life, to the exclusion of all else.
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