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Post by vertigomez on Dec 19, 2018 6:44:28 GMT
So, Dorian trying to reform an entire country and culture. Is it going to happen? I foresee baby steps - or violent revolution, if things go sour - but I don't really see the Lucerni magically whisking away all that's bad about Tevinter and just leaving the good. I think attempts will be made to address corruption, rampant use of blood magic, etc. But with people like Solas and Calpernia on the loose, I'm not sure things will stay diplomatic no matter what Dorian and Mae's goals are. It's aaaall just speculation, though. Who can say what their plans are?
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 19, 2018 10:53:32 GMT
So, Dorian trying to reform an entire country and culture. Is it going to happen? Possibly, if only because Tevinter will be in a very fragile state by the end of this between the Qunari invading and Solas doing his thing and all the consequences that could happen from that. Plus reforming institutions is kind of what we do in Dragon Age games. that and choosing it's leaders Ferelden, Orzammar, Orlais...the f-ing Chantry itself...just to name a few
Chances are we'll have to settle the succession of Nevarra in the next game, possibly choose the new Black Divine of Tevinter, and some other various nonsense
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 23, 2018 7:07:34 GMT
WHY DID I WATCH THIS AUGH. 😱
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 7:24:24 GMT
WHY DID I WATCH THIS AUGH. 😱 If that's what I think it is, I've already shed an hour of real tears over just watching it on Youtube. It makes you heartsick.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 23, 2018 7:34:21 GMT
WHY DID I WATCH THIS AUGH. 😱 Why would you watch that after all these years? I've happily managed to avoid it all this time and will continue to do so.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 23, 2018 7:41:23 GMT
You know, I just realized that I don't understand the "Never again shall we submit" option in the poll. Who is submitting to whom here?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 7:49:18 GMT
You know, I just realized that I don't understand the "Never again shall we submit" option in the poll. Who is submitting to whom here? I believe it is the rest of Thedas to Tevinter. After all Tevinter used to control the entire continent until Andraste’s rebellion which split them away from the Imperium. So they are following their ancestors in not being under Tevinter’s control.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 23, 2018 11:50:25 GMT
WHY DID I WATCH THIS AUGH. 😱 Why would you watch that after all these years? I've happily managed to avoid it all this time and will continue to do so. I was being dramatic. I've watched it many times over the years, as I have.... pretty much every option in every game, actually. You know, I just realized that I don't understand the "Never again shall we submit" option in the poll. Who is submitting to whom here? From the whole, "we are the last of the elvhen, never again shall we submit" Dalish spiel about not being slaves in Tevinter.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 23, 2018 12:00:51 GMT
you know, first time I read the poll, I thought the first option read 'bacon for all!' and I was like...I love bacon...then I reread it and realized it said beacon possibly 'cause I had just interacted with Sister Theohild in Origins at the time (for the Maker shall be her bacon and her shield )
we need funny Chantry people in the next game, everyone has been so serious the past few games plus, most Chantry people in Tevinter are men...should be interesting no?
also, I wonder which mage companion is going to screw us over this time (glances at Morrigan, Anders and Solas), seems to be a trend in the games so far
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 13:20:58 GMT
Slavery didn't seem to be on the table in Dorian or Mae's agenda, or at least it didn't get priority.
I have to see the actual Tevinter treatment of slaves on general (and not just isolated extreme cases) and how much of an effect it has on ghettos to make my final judgement. We have seen alienages two times in the game and read about them even more times. Its easier to look down it when you do nothing to help alienages. I was semi-convinced by Dorian's argument that slavery in Thedas is no more worse than Alienages and other ghettos, which getting out of is absolutely rare. We can find extreme cases of bad treatment of servants in south as well, which doesn't seem to bother anyone. Its slavery in every way except name and technicality. But I will withhold judgement until I see it for myself.
But if I was to make a guess, revolution and rebellion will not be worth it if the only thing it does is remove slavery and replace it with the southern system. BUT if truly ends slavery and not just replace it with equally shitty system, then I'm all for it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 13:55:28 GMT
Slavery didn't seem to be on the table in Dorian or Mae's agenda, or at least it didn't get priority. I have to see the actual Tevinter treatment of slaves on general (and not just isolated extreme cases) and how much of an effect it has on ghettos to make my final judgement. We have seen alienages two times in the game and read about them even more times. Its easier to look down it when you do nothing to help alienages. I was semi-convinced by Dorian's argument that slavery in Thedas is no more worse than Alienages and other ghettos, which getting out of is absolutely rare. We can find extreme cases of bad treatment of servants in south as well, which doesn't seem to bother anyone. Its slavery in every way except name and technicality. But I will withhold judgement until I see it for myself. But if I was to make a guess, revolution and rebellion will not be worth it if the only thing it does is remove slavery and replace it with the southern system. BUT if truly ends slavery and not just replace it with equally shitty system, then I'm all for it. I think it worth. The principle is matter. And still an improvement, a step toward the freedom. The food isn't everything – to be to someone's property can't be good. (I can say, even if I think, the Orlesian Empire not really better than the Tevinter Imperium.)
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 14:11:15 GMT
Slavery didn't seem to be on the table in Dorian or Mae's agenda, or at least it didn't get priority. I have to see the actual Tevinter treatment of slaves on general (and not just isolated extreme cases) and how much of an effect it has on ghettos to make my final judgement. We have seen alienages two times in the game and read about them even more times. Its easier to look down it when you do nothing to help alienages. I was semi-convinced by Dorian's argument that slavery in Thedas is no more worse than Alienages and other ghettos, which getting out of is absolutely rare. We can find extreme cases of bad treatment of servants in south as well, which doesn't seem to bother anyone. Its slavery in every way except name and technicality. But I will withhold judgement until I see it for myself. But if I was to make a guess, revolution and rebellion will not be worth it if the only thing it does is remove slavery and replace it with the southern system. BUT if truly ends slavery and not just replace it with equally shitty system, then I'm all for it. I think it worth. The principle is matter. And still an improvement, a step toward the freedom. The food isn't everything – to be to someone's property can't be good. (I can say, even if I think, the Orlesian Empire not really better than the Tevinter Imperium.) But its just principle. Its being property versus being discarded trash. If a revolution is to start and thousands are about to die, its better be worth it and not just be something based on principle. Specially a principle that is at best debatable in terms of being "better". This is specially true when a bigger threat is looming, aka Qunari who take the meaning of slavery to entirely different league that makes slavery in Tevinter look like heaven. However, one thing I will oppose is enforced slavery. Like kidnapping someone and forcing them into it. That should be stopped. This is also why I think the conversation with Dorian was kinda cheap, because only voluntary slavery is discussed. Not the forced one.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 14:21:06 GMT
But its just principle. Its being property versus being discarded trash. If a revolution is to start and thousands are about to die, its better be worth it and not just be something based on principle. Specially a principle that is at best debatable in terms of being "better". This is specially true when a bigger threat is looming, aka Qunari who take the meaning of slavery to entirely different league that makes slavery in Tevinter look like heaven. No, it no just a principle, and the principle still matters. It means, that this can't be a way. I would support a slave rebellion, because nobody has right to own a person like a property. I don't believe in the "voluntary slavery". The slavery always forced.
Also I agree with that the Qun slavery even worse. But I rather would like if this would be destroyed by qunari people themselves (Tal-Vashoth, Fog Warriors), like the by the Imperium.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 14:31:23 GMT
<abbr class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1545574275000" title="Dec 23, 2018 15:11:15 GMT 1">Dec 23, 2018 15:11:15 GMT 1</abbr> Lulupab said: I think it worth. The principle is matter. And still an improvement, a step toward the freedom. The food isn't everything – to be to someone's property can't be good. (I can say, even if I think, the Orlesian Empire not really better than the Tevinter Imperium.) But its just principle. Its being property versus being discarded trash. If a revolution is to start and thousands are about to die, its better be worth it and not just be something based on principle. Specially a principle that is at best debatable in terms of being "better". This is specially true when a bigger threat is looming, aka Qunari who take the meaning of slavery to entirely different league that makes slavery in Tevinter look like heaven. No, it no just a principle, and the principle still matters. It means, that this can't be a way. I would support a slave rebellion, because nobody has right to own a person like a property. I don't believe in the "voluntary slavery".
Also I agree with that the Qun slavery even worse. But I rather would like if this would be destroyed by qunari people themselves (Tal-Vashoth, Fog Warriors), like the by the Imperium.
You have to be the most miserable people on Thedas to rebel and lose so many only to end up in Ghettos, ignored and discarded, waiting to either starve or die from a disease. Hardly better if at all. Like I'm not questioning the morality of slavery here. But in context I'm not seeing the south doing any better. If its going away, it should so in a proper manner. Not be replaced by the southern system. The issue with Qunari is the fact that they want to invade, and will do it. No one really cares if they just stay in their homeland. Because unlike Tevinter, its not one issue that can be fixed. Its their entire society and culture and its ten times harder to get rid of, specially internally.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 14:39:44 GMT
No, it no just a principle, and the principle still matters. It means, that this can't be a way. I would support a slave rebellion, because nobody has right to own a person like a property. I don't believe in the "voluntary slavery".
Also I agree with that the Qun slavery even worse. But I rather would like if this would be destroyed by qunari people themselves (Tal-Vashoth, Fog Warriors), like the by the Imperium. You have to be the most miserable people on Thedas to rebel and lose so many only to end up in Ghettos, ignored and discarded, waiting to either starve or die from a disease. Hardly better if at all. Like I'm not questioning the morality of slavery here. But in context I'm not seeing the south doing any better. If its going away, it should so in a proper manner. Not be replaced by the southern system. The issue with Qunari is the fact that they want to invade, and will do it. No one really cares if they just stay in their homeland. Because unlike Tevinter, its not one issue that can be fixed. Its their entire society and culture and its ten times harder to get rid of, specially internally. If nobody want to change it peacefully, then have to change it violently. The possibility of a starvation or another bad system not justify the tolerance.
Yes, the Qunari want invade everything. But if the Magisters care about their imperium, let's treat the people as people, and they will fight for the freedom of the Imperium – against the Qunari...
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 15:00:20 GMT
You have to be the most miserable people on Thedas to rebel and lose so many only to end up in Ghettos, ignored and discarded, waiting to either starve or die from a disease. Hardly better if at all. Like I'm not questioning the morality of slavery here. But in context I'm not seeing the south doing any better. If its going away, it should so in a proper manner. Not be replaced by the southern system. The issue with Qunari is the fact that they want to invade, and will do it. No one really cares if they just stay in their homeland. Because unlike Tevinter, its not one issue that can be fixed. Its their entire society and culture and its ten times harder to get rid of, specially internally. If nobody want to change it peacefully, then have to change it violently. The possibility of a starvation or another bad system not justify the tolerance.
Yes, the Qunari want invade everything. But if the Magisters care about their imperium, let's treat the people as people, and they will fight for the freedom of the Imperium – against the Qunari...
Yes, but with a new system. Make Tevinter the pioneer, like it always has been. Don't make it copy the south. That's just wrong on so many levels.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 15:19:35 GMT
If nobody want to change it peacefully, then have to change it violently. The possibility of a starvation or another bad system not justify the tolerance. Yes, the Qunari want invade everything. But if the Magisters care about their imperium, let's treat the people as people, and they will fight for the freedom of the Imperium – against the Qunari...
Yes, but with a new system. Make Tevinter the pioneer, like it always has been. Don't make it copy the south. That's just wrong on so many levels. Who wants to follow the old, bad system? Who even said, the Southern system is good? Let's do a new, to replace the slavery, I agree, but the revolution is necessary. Bloody or less blody, only depends on the Magisters.
I only said, that the fear from another bad system doesn't justify the tolerance. Nothing justifies the tolerance toward the slavery.
It's like: oh, not worth it, because this will be just as wrong like the Southern system. This is just empty fear from something we don't know. Let's do it. Worth it.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 15:35:55 GMT
Yes, but with a new system. Make Tevinter the pioneer, like it always has been. Don't make it copy the south. That's just wrong on so many levels. Who wants to follow the old, bad system? Who even said, the Southern system is good? Let's do a new, to replace the slavery, I agree, but the revolution is necessary. Bloody or less blody, only depends on the Magisters.
I only said, that the fear from another bad system doesn't justify the tolerance. Nothing justifies the tolerance toward the slavery.
It's like: oh, not worth it, because this will be just as wrong like the Southern system. This is just empty fear from something we don't know. Let's do it. Worth it.
All I'm asking is for a goal for said revolution. Lets provide an alternative. Anyone can complain and when things not go their way, resort to violence. But it barely succeeds unless a goal is determined beforehand. The said goal should be about what happens after slavery is abolished. Tevinter completely relies on slaves to function and as such solutions should be provided.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 15:41:37 GMT
Who wants to follow the old, bad system? Who even said, the Southern system is good? Let's do a new, to replace the slavery, I agree, but the revolution is necessary. Bloody or less blody, only depends on the Magisters.
I only said, that the fear from another bad system doesn't justify the tolerance. Nothing justifies the tolerance toward the slavery.
It's like: oh, not worth it, because this will be just as wrong like the Southern system. This is just empty fear from something we don't know. Let's do it. Worth it.
All I'm asking is for a goal for said revolution. Lets provide an alternative. Anyone can complain and when things not go their way, resort to violence. But it barely succeeds unless a goal is determined beforehand. The said goal should be about what happens after slavery is abolished. Tevinter completely relies on slaves to function and as such solutions should be provided. If they can't find a method, then Tevinter deserve to be forgotten. Sad thing. But not an excuse for maintain the slavery.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 15:54:33 GMT
All I'm asking is for a goal for said revolution. Lets provide an alternative. Anyone can complain and when things not go their way, resort to violence. But it barely succeeds unless a goal is determined beforehand. The said goal should be about what happens after slavery is abolished. Tevinter completely relies on slaves to function and as such solutions should be provided. If they can't find a method, then Tevinter deserve to be forgotten. Sad thing. But not an excuse for maintain the slavery. Why stop at Tevinter? While at it, lets allow the veil to be destroyed because humanity on Thedas deserves no less if we put everything they do under modern ethical standard, not just slavery. I believe in context on of the game, Tevinter has every right to exist if one believes Orlais does as well.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 23, 2018 16:08:45 GMT
If they can't find a method, then Tevinter deserve to be forgotten. Sad thing. But not an excuse for maintain the slavery. Why stop at Tevinter? While at it, lets allow the veil to be destroyed because humanity on Thedas deserves no less if we put everything they do under modern ethical standard, not just slavery. I believe in context on of the game, Tevinter has every right to exist if one believes Orlais does as well. I didn't even say, that Tevinter must be destroyed – I just said, the slaves have every right to rebel, and I would like to see that, and an opportunity to support that, and I'll not support someone, who want to crush the revolution. That's all. If the Magisters behave well, Tevinter will survive. If not – so it's happened. If nobody starts the change, nothing will change. Not mentioned: why the slaves must be tolerant for the Imperium, why not the Magisters have to work for the land what is their responsibility? The slaves don't have right over themselves – how they would have responsibility for the Imperium? Let's give them rights before we expect responsibility from them! The Magisters have right to free their slaves... what prevents the to do it, if not themselves? UPDATE: The slavery helps to the Qunari, the slaves often run to the Qun for shelter.
This isn't a modern ethical standard. This is very old one. Even in Thedas. Shartan, Andraste... existed hundred years ago.
By the way, my best end of Orlais is the public truce... they deserve each other, and if they can't live with the shared power, then let's live with the consequences...
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 23, 2018 16:23:27 GMT
Slavery didn't seem to be on the table in Dorian or Mae's agenda We don't know what their agenda is. Pretty much all we've gotten are a few lines about reform, and that's it. (And no, I haven't read the comics. But I only count game material, for the most part.)
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 18:45:50 GMT
I just want it to be done right.
Originally slavery was automatically replaced by semi-feudal relations during a natural process and effectively turning slave-object into a slave-subject.
Tevinter has not followed that pattern. So it deserves a unique solutions of its own. Not something common and predictable.
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 24, 2018 5:23:44 GMT
The elves will rise again and pound Tevinter into dust.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 24, 2018 11:31:05 GMT
We don't know what their agenda is. Pretty much all we've gotten are a few lines about reform, and that's it. Dorian defends slavery to the Inquisitor. It is possible that being in the south has given him pause but from what I recall it was only being in the south that made him question it at all and it was from there that he came up with his "defence" on the basis that slavery in Tevinter was no worse and often a lot better than poverty in the south. When Solas challenged him that if he was truly sorry about the past he would free the slaves of all races, Dorian said he didn't think that would be possible. So I really don't feel the motivation is there and it certainly wouldn't be at the top of his agenda. He is more concerned about dealing with corruption among the ruling class. As for Maevaris, it is true we have nothing in game to indicate what her agenda would be. However, in the comic series her remark in answer to implied criticism from Isabella "Everyone has slaves in Tevinter, darling", suggests that like Dorian she regards it as a normal part of society. No doubt she treats her slaves very well and may be they wouldn't want their freedom even if offered it, so there is not the burning sense of wanting to change that aspect of Tevinter society. The only person who has been shown in game, apart from Solas, who wants to change the system with respect to slaves, is Calpernia and, even if she survived, she is an outsider and now regarded as a traitor by the ruling elite of Tevinter, so unlikely to influence things via the normal political route. Dorian seemed to approve of her but I think that was more her general wish to bring about a re-birth of Tevinter in order that it could be "a beacon of hope" and a "crafter of wonders" rather than her specific agenda with regard to the slaves.
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