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Post by Augustei on Dec 24, 2018 11:35:41 GMT
The Tevinter slavery question made me struggle to decide what to do with Calpernia in Inquisition, I mean she survives either way but the PC's intent is important. On the one hand the last thing I wanted was for her to go back to Tevinter and start a slave uprising while the Qunari were invading because I definitely want Tevinter to win that fight, but then on the other she could prove very useful in rallying the slaves to Tevinters side, bringing them on board to properly support the Tevinter cause, so long as the Tevinter's were wise enough to grant them concessions for their support, à la the British and American Colonies freeing slaves in order for their support fighting the Revolution. If they could get sufficient organization, the Tevinter-Qunari war would be a good time for them to press that issue.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 24, 2018 11:50:13 GMT
You have to be the most miserable people on Thedas to rebel and lose so many only to end up in Ghettos, ignored and discarded, waiting to either starve or die from a disease. Hardly better if at all. Like I'm not questioning the morality of slavery here. But in context I'm not seeing the south doing any better. If its going away, it should so in a proper manner. Not be replaced by the southern system. (I can say, even if I think, the Orlesian Empire not really better than the Tevinter Imperium.) Put these two quotes together because there was a better system for the elves in the south. It was known as the Dales. It was also the belief of some of them that the Empire of Orlais that Drakon established was no better than the Imperium. If you read what he did to the independent tribes of the Cirianne in order to achieve his vision, then to my mind their misgivings were entirely justified. Where the elves were at fault was in not stepping in to assist those tribes when they were attacked but instead thinking it was just a human affair and not their business. Then in Jaws of Hakkon this statement about "some" elves feeling this way, was translated the writers and the listeners as an automatic confirmation of Chantry propaganda that the elves of the Dales did not assist against the 2nd Blight and thus Orlais was in some way justified in destroying their nation and absorbing the region into their empire, whilst deporting its legitimate inhabitants throughout the rest of Thedas. Effectively what they did was no different to Tevinter in the past conquering a region and taking the occupants as slaves. The ruling class of the Dales became the Dalish as they fled following the defeat, so the majority of city elves were just the ordinary citizens who were then punished with second class status and deprived of their freedom. Back in DAO we were told that you needed a special permit to travel from one alienage to another and of course no elf was allowed to carry a weapon bigger than a knife. They certainly went to great lengths to ensure the elves could never fight back again. Anyway, there are other better systems of governance than either Tevinter, Orlais or the Qun but at present they are on the fringes of society. However, I suspect the closest we shall get to bringing down either Tevinter or the Qun is on Seheron. I so much want the Fog People to get back their island from these two super powers and would be happy if that is the one thing I am allowed to achieve to alter the status quo.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 24, 2018 16:04:26 GMT
Dorian defends slavery to the Inquisitor. And? That has nothing to do with knowing what the agenda is of the Lucerni. I don't care to argue the whole Dorian slavery issue with you, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that what we've been shown in the game is any clear indication as to what their agenda is regarding slavery. You can suppose all you want, but we don't have evidence. That is my whole point. People do a lot of supposing when discussing these games and talk about those suppositions as facts, but they're not.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 24, 2018 16:20:01 GMT
I just want it to be done right. Originally slavery was automatically replaced by semi-feudal relations during a natural process and effectively turning slave-object into a slave-subject. Tevinter has not followed that pattern. So it deserves a unique solutions of its own. Not something common and predictable. Another consideration is that, if we're looking for parallels in our own history, slavery for us (largely) ended around the same time as the Industrial Revolution.
In addition to the increasing moral objections people had towards slavery at that time, there were practical considerations to factor in, because why continue to house/feed and large workforce of slaves when you can run a machine for half the cost? The same was just as true of free workers, who often found themselves put out of work because machinisation had rendered them obsolete.
(How much the Industrial Revolution factored into the end of slavery is admittedly still a hotly debated topic, but for simplicity's sake, let's say that did leave an impact on society and change how workforces operated to some degree, due to the new technology available)
As most of Thedas is still pre-Industrial, with only the Dwarves and Qunari having any degree of machinisation, then Tevinter doesn't have that as an option available to them. To end slavery Tevinter would need to massively overhaul their infrastructure and society... and as you suggested, ex-slaves would likely end up being left as serfs in a similar type of feudal system the rest of Thedas operates under.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 24, 2018 17:26:19 GMT
As most of Thedas is still pre-Industrial, with only the Dwarves and Qunari having any degree of machinisation, then Tevinter doesn't have that as an option available to them. But they do have magic. Perhaps we will see some differences if we actually get into Tevinter, and especially Minrathous. Right now, the devs haven't shown a very expansive view of what magic can accomplish for luxuries in everyday life. Granted, some of this is also due to limited game resources; I totally understand that. I'm not talking about Harry Potter levels of animating cooking and cleaning things to do the work for you, but things like keeping a house cool in the warm Tevinter climate, various lighting, and other such things; we know that magic has been used, and was pivotal for, some of the unique architecture found in the Imperium. Currently, such creativity can only be found in fanfic; even the DA novels have been limited in this regard. However, we did get to see a magical "laser" show in one issue, so I'm hoping that the devs can take some inspiration from things like that. (I haven't read the recent comic story, so don't know if there is more creative magic there.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 24, 2018 18:21:18 GMT
And? That has nothing to do with knowing what the agenda is of the Lucerni. I don't care to argue the whole Dorian slavery issue with you, but suffice it to say that I don't believe that what we've been shown in the game is any clear indication as to what their agenda is regarding slavery. You can suppose all you want, but we don't have evidence. On the contrary, we have been shown exactly what the agenda of the Lucerni is in Trespasser, particularly if the Inquisitor romanced Dorian: "Maevaris and I have been meeting with our fledgling Lucerni party: A dozen junior magisters with a burning hatred for the corruption of the Imperium, and little idea how to change it beyond shouting incoherently. It's going to require a lot of work from Mae and me to turn them into shrewd Magisterium politicians. Don't laugh." It is clear that the principle aim of the Lucerni is to combat corruption in the Imperium via the Magisterium, in other words among the ruling elite. Then this is confirmed in the epilogue. "Dorian returned to Tevinter to take his father's place in the Magisterium. As rumors flew about the Imperium's infighting, Dorian was spoken of often as a voice of resistance against corruption. Along with Magister Maevaris Tilani, he formed a group called the Lucerni to restore and redeem Tevinter - a fight many thought hopeless." Now it is possible that at some point that could include the matter of slavery but probably only if the political situation demands it, rather as was the case when Hessarian decided to free the elves, who formed the bulk of the slave workforce in his time. However, in terms of moral outlook, the institution of slavery has not been something that Dorian or Maevaris have given an indication that they feel the need to reform.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 30, 2018 17:39:11 GMT
Speaking of the corruption of the Imperium... 😎
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 31, 2018 1:46:56 GMT
If nobody want to change it peacefully, then have to change it violently. The possibility of a starvation or another bad system not justify the tolerance.
Yes, the Qunari want invade everything. But if the Magisters care about their imperium, let's treat the people as people, and they will fight for the freedom of the Imperium – against the Qunari...
Yes, but with a new system. Make Tevinter the pioneer, like it always has been. Don't make it copy the south. That's just wrong on so many levels. If we’re looking for a template society, the Qunari seem — perhaps surprisingly — to be the easiest to reform. The root issue that they currently have is their dogmatic, ineffecient division of labor. Pre- and mid-industrial societies need an absolutely massive percentage of their people to work in food production. Somewhere in the range of 70-90%. If the Qunari weren’t forced (by themselves) to put so few people into agriculture, there wouldn’t be such a massive demand for viddath-bas, which in turn creates a massive demand for arresting/conquering and qamek-ing hordes of mindless laborers. This is the true motor driving their fanaticism — people need to be taken in for minor deviations, otherwise they won’t have enough food for their impractically gigantic army and priesthood. Their tech is decent, so if they could just reallocate more of their army and priesthood to farming, their Ben-Hassrath could chill out. Plus, their basic religious text is fairly peaceful. Unlike the Chant, which explicitly brings war into the picture, Koslun’s writings read like a journal from a hippie commune. Their society seems really regimented by Thedosian standards, but aside from the fanaticism that springs from their farmer shortage, they’re similar to a lot of industrialized civilizations. They have schools, they have career tracks based on evaluation rather than inheritance, and they have a high degree of worker specialization. Unlike most of the other societies, they have enough tech that they don’t strictly need an oppressed workforce to maintain their current standard of living. They just need to rebalance who’s doing what.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 31, 2018 2:52:41 GMT
Artpost of some A++ 'Vints: Mae and Dorian- Krem- Calpernia- Hadriana- Marius-
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 31, 2018 8:51:54 GMT
If nobody want to change it peacefully, then have to change it violently. The possibility of a starvation or another bad system not justify the tolerance.
Yes, the Qunari want invade everything. But if the Magisters care about their imperium, let's treat the people as people, and they will fight for the freedom of the Imperium – against the Qunari...
Yes, but with a new system. Make Tevinter the pioneer, like it always has been. Don't make it copy the south. That's just wrong on so many levels. Indeed, I'd like to see some innovation here. The wild card is, of course, magic. I think it can be used way more productively than it is, overcoming some of the challenges that would usually hold back a society in the absence of agricultural technology.
Having said that, barring slavery, the *current* system isn't any worse than any other on Thedas with the possible exception of that of Rivain, which probably doesn't scale upwards very well. Tevinter society is stratified according to criteria disliked by the south, but essentially it's just another form of hereditary rule.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2019 2:46:53 GMT
I'm pretty excited about the Imperial Chantry, as well as any lingering worshippers of the Old Gods. I hope we see our fair share of both in Tevinter. I've headcanoned my current Warden as... not quite an Old God cultist, but someone who reveres them like the dwarves do their ancestors; he was 100% on board with saving Urthemiel's soul and very intrigued by the Architect. Would've lost his shit if he knew the Wardens had imprisoned Corypheus. Or if he knew they were trying to annihilate the remaining Old Gods in response to the false Calling.
As for the Chantry, it'll be interesting seeing as they believe Andraste was a mortal woman and a mage.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 2:49:56 GMT
Wouldn't it be nice if there were at least two well rounded cults to go along with our two well rounded political parties?
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 3, 2019 3:24:35 GMT
Wouldn't it be nice if there were at least two well rounded cults to go along with our two well rounded political parties? Imagine having a straight-up, true believer Promiser in the party. That would be wild. Everyone else is freaking out about the end of the world, meanwhile the Promiser is quietly reaching climax in the corner.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 3:29:33 GMT
Wouldn't it be nice if there were at least two well rounded cults to go along with our two well rounded political parties? Imagine having a straight-up, true believer Promiser in the party. That would be wild. Everyone else is freaking out about the end of the world, meanwhile the Promiser is quietly reaching climax in the corner. Only if we get a punch option. I don't care if they're right, I want to punch 'em.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 3, 2019 3:43:37 GMT
Imagine having a straight-up, true believer Promiser in the party. That would be wild. Everyone else is freaking out about the end of the world, meanwhile the Promiser is quietly reaching climax in the corner. Only if we get a punch option. I don't care if they're right, I want to punch 'em. If you punch them, they are reborn as a paradise.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 3:55:29 GMT
Only if we get a punch option. I don't care if they're right, I want to punch 'em. If you punch them, they are reborn as a paradise. Make sure they record a weird noise they make as they fall to the ground so you feel dirty for reasons not related to being a bad guy for punching before walking away.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jan 3, 2019 11:19:04 GMT
Will there be multiple cities or will we be focused primarily on Minrathous. Considering that it is the largest and oldest human city on Thedas, you could fit in so much life in the city. Seeing other cities would be nice but I can live with just Minrathous.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 3, 2019 12:35:54 GMT
Will there be multiple cities or will we be focused primarily on Minrathous. Considering that it is the largest and oldest human city on Thedas, you could fit in so much life in the city. Seeing other cities would be nice but I can live with just Minrathous. I would love it to be based around Minrathous provided it is a properly realised Minrathous. Val Royeaux is meant to be the second largest city in Thedas (maybe third if you count Qunandar) and the Grand Cathedral a magnificent structure that people travel from all over Thedas to behold. So what did we get? A suburban courtyard and café, whilst when you stood on the upper deck you simply saw mountains with the Grand Cathedral and White Spire not even evident on the horizon. That was disappointing. I hope their reluctance to use a city setting wasn't based on the poor reaction to DA2. The problem there was once again it wasn't a particularly good rendition of a major city and too small in scope with too many reused area. Now if they could do what they did in BG2 with Athkatla that would on the right lines. That had lots of different areas, each with its own character and even its own background music. There were plenty of different people inhabiting the place and it felt alive. Plus we had a proper date/night cycle. I just can't believe how many years ago that was and yet Dragon Age does not have the ability to change from day to night as you actually walk around the setting. So give me a Minrathous that actually feels big enough to house a million people, with everything from the Altus mansions to the elven slums, from the Senate House and Circle of Magi (former temple of Razikale) to the Imperial Chantry. Let us see the architectural marvel that is the Proving Grounds both on the skyline and from within and let us admire the hanging gardens that decorate the exterior. Then I'll be content.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 3, 2019 14:29:48 GMT
Will there be multiple cities or will we be focused primarily on Minrathous. Considering that it is the largest and oldest human city on Thedas, you could fit in so much life in the city. Seeing other cities would be nice but I can live with just Minrathous. The Witcher 3 did multiple cities.....well, two....but I think it's beyond Bioware to do the same. I want Minrathous, and I'll be very disappointed if I won't get it. Anything else is a bonus.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,572 Likes: 12,621
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2019 20:53:02 GMT
Will there be multiple cities or will we be focused primarily on Minrathous. Considering that it is the largest and oldest human city on Thedas, you could fit in so much life in the city. Seeing other cities would be nice but I can live with just Minrathous. The Witcher 3 did multiple cities.....well, two....but I think it's beyond Bioware to do the same. I want Minrathous, and I'll be very disappointed if I won't get it. Anything else is a bonus. Two cities, and one was considerably smaller than the other. Honestly if they can give us a Minrathous that’s a little bigger than Novigrad I don’t think I’d need any more full city maps. Though honestly, even if they broke the map up into a few districts I could probably be satisfied as long as each one was well done. Anything but a repeat of Val Royeaux’s disappointment would be preferable honestly.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 3, 2019 21:51:23 GMT
The Witcher 3 did multiple cities.....well, two....but I think it's beyond Bioware to do the same. I want Minrathous, and I'll be very disappointed if I won't get it. Anything else is a bonus. Two cities, and one was considerably smaller than the other. Honestly if they can give us a Minrathous that’s a little bigger than Novigrad I don’t think I’d need any more full city maps. Though honestly, even if they broke the map up into a few districts I could probably be satisfied as long as each one was well done. Anything but a repeat of Val Royeaux’s disappointment would be preferable honestly. Yeah, that was about the biggest disappointment of DAI, especially after all that concept art published in advance. They should try extra-hard to make Minrathous convincing.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2019 22:37:42 GMT
Honestly, I'd be pretty fine with a mostly-Minrathous game (plus some nearby areas, perhaps? I want to see the Hundred Pillars! And Qarinus/Ventus and Vyrantium! I want to see how the cities differ from each other 😍). Same reason I was fine with Kirkwall, tbh: the city had character, and if it's huge and sprawling and more importantly full and alive and thematic, I won't complain one bit if the game more-or-less takes place in one city.
On the other hand, I don't know if we'll stay up north for the rest of the series, so if this is our only chance to see Seheron or Par Vollen then I don't want to miss out on those places. Just think of the jungles, and the fog, hnnng.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 4, 2019 4:42:19 GMT
Honestly, I'd be pretty fine with a mostly-Minrathous game (plus some nearby areas, perhaps? I want to see the Hundred Pillars! And Qarinus/Ventus and Vyrantium! I want to see how the cities differ from each other 😍). Same reason I was fine with Kirkwall, tbh: the city had character, and if it's huge and sprawling and more importantly full and alive and thematic, I won't complain one bit if the game more-or-less takes place in one city. On the other hand, I don't know if we'll stay up north for the rest of the series, so if this is our only chance to see Seheron or Par Vollen then I don't want to miss out on those places. Just think of the jungles, and the fog, hnnng. I would love a city as the main hub area, if they could just do it properly. It doesn't even need to be big, it just needs to have a lot of depth. Deus Ex Human Revolution did a great job with its cities. They took great advantage of vertical space, there were all sorts of secret pockets and passages, offering alternative paths to almost everywhere. The space doesn't even need to be particularly large in order to "feel" like a city, it just needs to create the illusion. When you go to Orlais in Inquisition, it's painfully obvious that the courtyard is all there is, but even within that space, a lot of it goes unused. More stalls, more people, and more things to do would have gone a long way to making it feel more authentic.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 4, 2019 4:47:42 GMT
Actually, another big problem with the Orlais area is that the backdrop is just empty sky. They should have thrown in some palaces and shit in the distance.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 4, 2019 8:53:17 GMT
Honestly, I'd be pretty fine with a mostly-Minrathous game (plus some nearby areas, perhaps? I want to see the Hundred Pillars! And Qarinus/Ventus and Vyrantium! I want to see how the cities differ from each other 😍). Same reason I was fine with Kirkwall, tbh: the city had character, and if it's huge and sprawling and more importantly full and alive and thematic, I won't complain one bit if the game more-or-less takes place in one city. On the other hand, I don't know if we'll stay up north for the rest of the series, so if this is our only chance to see Seheron or Par Vollen then I don't want to miss out on those places. Just think of the jungles, and the fog, hnnng. I would love a city as the main hub area, if they could just do it properly. It doesn't even need to be big, it just needs to have a lot of depth. Deus Ex Human Revolution did a great job with its cities. They took great advantage of vertical space, there were all sorts of secret pockets and passages, offering alternative paths to almost everywhere. The space doesn't even need to be particularly large in order to "feel" like a city, it just needs to create the illusion. When you go to Orlais in Inquisition, it's painfully obvious that the courtyard is all there is, but even within that space, a lot of it goes unused. More stalls, more people, and more things to do would have gone a long way to making it feel more authentic. DXHR did well, but The Witcher 3 set new standards with Novigrad. I say it's not a city if you can't get lost, and you never got lost in DXHR. In Novigrad, I still had to use the map now and then in my latest playthrough, if I wanted to go somewhere not covered by a quest marker.
Also, more people is indeed a must-have. TW3 stands out here as well - lots and lots of NPCs in Novigrad, who all walk around instead of standing around like those animated statues in DAI's Redcliffe, and they all react if you bump into them instead of passing them by. It feels more real than any other city I've seen in a game. To be honest, any big city scenario that falls short of this experience will be disappointing from now on.
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