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Post by legbamel on Aug 19, 2016 2:20:15 GMT
I think some long-term Kaidan fans might be a wee bit defensive after all the "whiny Carth-lite" accusations we've read and all the people who gleefully post that they've never had him survive a trip to Virmire. Or maybe it's just me. I don't know that I've seen anywhere near the sort of condemnation of Ash for a similar reaction as I see of Kaidan. I also don't spend a lot of time reading Ashley threads so that may be self-enforced bias.
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 2:41:26 GMT
And of course Shep went from Cerberus lackey to blowing up the relay and destroys a couple hundred thousand Batarians so she could become a jailbird. Considering the pro/only-human stance of Cerberus it seems reasonable for the VS to doubt whether that was truly an attempt to stop the Reapers. Edit: For me, a bit part of the problem with Kaidan's romance lies in the compressed timeline BioWare chose for the story. I wrote a long post about it here: biowarefan.blogspot.com/2012/05/mass-effect-timeline-issues-and-kaidans.html but the upshot it that the actual relationship turns out to have been quite short. Part of what makes it so jarring was that there wasn't enough questioning. Especially if Shepard was an Akuze survivor. Kaidan's the kind of person who would have checked the facts, he's too rational to jump the gun that early. Even if he gets past the enormous hurdle of believing that it's Shepard, why think Shep's done it willingly? Blackmail, mind control, deception, something far more coercive would be the first thing to pop in my head if I was in Kaidan's/Ashely's place. Blah, the writers did not need to do this to Kaidan. He had legitimate reasons for not being able to join Shepard. It'd be one thing if the drama was meant to enhance the story but it got dropped and neglected. Ninja'd!: Roselavellan, you explain it better than I Poor writing. I would keep saying over and over again. Everything would be different if we had a DLC with Virmire Survivor as Liara has hers. The Arrival would have been terrific with the VS and Shepard rescuing Amanda. You can replicate everything from there: Kaidan/Ashley gets knock out in the first wave of the Object Rho enemies (that way, you keep the One Woman for herself moment) and then, two days after, you wake up, you look after VS and together start the Project because there were no other way. The could have put the Cerberus Drama with Kaidan and Ash right there. Whatever, I know it's not Kaidan's fault (or Ashley's) if writers decided to nuke their characters in ME2 just in case you romanced them in ME1 and you want to try something else in ME2. But... damn!!! Sometimes when it hurts and the decision is hard is better. Look at Liara, if you romanced her in ME1 and then you romance anyone else in ME2 you really feel bad during LoSB. However... It surprised me when Kaidan says I cheated him with Garrus in ME3. I don't know with Ashley, but Horizon really felt like a breakup scene for me. The email didn't help. So, in ME3 my Shepard was like...
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 3:35:25 GMT
Oh, I'm not accusing anyone here of dumping on Kaidan, just that I've generally seen it. Oh I don't mean anyone is accusing anyone of bashing, I realize though that I get overzealous sometimes about certain topics so I try to rein it back in.
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Post by hanklea on Aug 19, 2016 4:12:13 GMT
Ooh I like this topic! Mostly because I have some super convuluted head-canons...
My own Shep always gets down with Kaidan in ME1 after also having feelings for Liara. And then she switches to Garrus in ME2. I enjoy the drama and it makes the whole storyline that little bit more interesting.
The way my Shep sees it is that Garrus is the only one (apart from Joker but he's not an option) who backs her up, no questions, once she's been reanimated. She's just spent two years dead which must have been so traumatic. But the two people she had feelings for were brutally uncaring when she managed to find them again. Understandably so imo - Kaidan is right to be untrusting for all those reasons listed above and Liara is still coming to terms with the whole shadow broker thing. But Shep doesn't know that because neither of them will talk to her. Garrus backs her up because he trusts her and she eventually falls for him, but still has feelings for both Kaidan and Liara that she works out in the ME3.
I just really like how it makes all the characters that bit more involved in the personal story and gives all the interactions a bit more depth... I feel like it fits this storyline well.
My apologies for any formatting errors. I'm new to the forums here so don't know how this will come up on screen!
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 19, 2016 5:30:12 GMT
Is this a complaint with the writing or with Kaidan? Because the pitfalls of his writing aren't his fault. Both becouse the writing it's Kaidan...he is nothing more than writing right? And it's not that I dislike Kaidan character. I dislike the way, BioWare decides to make him in ME2 and ME3 ( the start of game). The decision they make about this character, how Kaidan act or ratcher what he is not doing is the reason why I decided to end my Shep relationship with him, that's all. And about visiting Shepard in ME3, he even never mentioned, that he wanted to do that ( don't know about Ash, she never survived Virmire). Anyway, Horizon in ME2 is all about bad writting. I undertand that devs wanted to add more drama to game, but they failed, letter from Kaidan feels like something forced ( well let's throw the bone to the Kaidan's fans) and really it's stupid and unrealistic, that Shepard even can't answer. Another thing is, like I wrote earlier, is that Kaidan, who saw the Reapers and was with Shepard by whole ME1 events never stand against Alliance and Council lies about them in opossite to less important for Shepard ppl. The Council grounded all Shepard team, they locked evidence, spread lies that enemies were just Geths and all those things make Shepard an idiot. And what's doing yours LI? Nothing. From other hand he is beliving in every rumour about Shepard & Cerberus and even don't want to listen her.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Aug 19, 2016 5:43:13 GMT
I'm kind of sad to see more discussion of Kaidan in this thread than in the Kaidan thread
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 5:47:43 GMT
I'm kind of sad to see more discussion of Kaidan in this thread than in the Kaidan thread Haha, I know. I thought about moving it over there, but, things happen so quickly! As it is, I think we've more or less derailed this thread so... I should go.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Aug 19, 2016 5:48:34 GMT
I'll gladly discuss all of this stuff over there with you guys
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Post by Panda on Aug 19, 2016 7:01:28 GMT
Kaidan (and Ashley) come out bit aggressive and unresponsive at Virmire. I started ME first with ME2 so I was quite taken a back how this guy I never met before and whose life I just saved from collectors started yelling at me and accusing me from being with Cerberus. Having more context from ME1 and ME3 did help to understand his points more, but still shouldn't friends (or lovers) at least give you benefit of doubt and bit time to explain where you come from? Though I guess it's up to writing and game mechanics as well, they did squeeze Kaidan and Ashley into same role after all.
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 19, 2016 7:30:14 GMT
As annoying as the VS is on Horizon, it doesn't help that the top option for the first line to a romanced VS is "Hey, it's been awhile. How have you been?"
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 11:01:03 GMT
As annoying as the VS is on Horizon, it doesn't help that the top option for the first line to a romanced VS is "Hey, it's been awhile. How have you been?" Well, Shepard and her oustanding charisma has less brilliant moments "Wait. I thought the Asari can´t have sex with each other" "What, I thought you said your father is dead. Is he a zombie or something, Ashley?" "Well, Turians tried to kill us too, Wrex"
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Post by yan on Aug 19, 2016 13:55:38 GMT
Reach ME3 with my Shep and still have to wait to continue my romance with Kaidan =p
Looking forward to him cook for me in the DLC. As a man, with moderate skills in kitchen, I identify myself with Kaidan (guess his own skills is away better then moderate.......anyway), although I never had the opportunity to cook for a girl =p
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 14:12:47 GMT
Reach ME3 with my Shep and still have to wait to continue my romance with Kaidan =p Looking forward to him cook for me in the DLC. As a man, with moderate skills in kitchen, I identify myself with Kaidan (guess his own skills is away better then moderate.......anyway), although I never had the opportunity to cook for a girl =p It's a very sweet scene. But it saddens me you lose the best conversation evah with Kaidan:
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Post by yan on Aug 19, 2016 14:24:34 GMT
I see this scene a bunch of times, I ALWAYS save Kaidan =p I dont like Ash
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Post by dalinne on Aug 19, 2016 14:39:23 GMT
I see this scene a bunch of times, I ALWAYS save Kaidan =p I dont like Ash Except two times in twenty playthroughs, I always save Kaidan too. I like Ash, I really like her and it always a big deal I let her die in Virmire but... Character wise, Ash is a GREAT character in ME1, but I feel she loses her charm in ME3. She barely has the sense of humour she used to have and she is... kindy there. Kaidan is pretty correct in ME1 if you don't romance him, he is wonderful if you romance him, but regardless if you romance him or not, in ME3 he loosen up a little, he is more fun and enjoyable.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 16:54:56 GMT
I'm kind of sad to see more discussion of Kaidan in this thread than in the Kaidan thread Sorry Kaidan Fan, if it's any consolation, we're trying to treat Kaidan with respect and understanding that how we feel about Horizon is not his fault. And given how tense some feelings are, maybe we don't want to bring anything that sounds like bashing to a fan thread? (I hope so)
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 19, 2016 17:13:19 GMT
I'm kind of sad to see more discussion of Kaidan in this thread than in the Kaidan thread Im sorry, I will try to be a better girl next time
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Post by Arcian on Aug 21, 2016 11:39:00 GMT
I see this scene a bunch of times, I ALWAYS save Kaidan =p I dont like Ash I don't dislike Ash but Kaidan is a higher rank than her and has vastly more useful skills and abilities. Plus, biotics are rare among humans, so protecting them should always be a priority.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Aug 25, 2016 6:38:42 GMT
Honestly, the game didn't tell you clearly that Kaidan is there to support Shepard during the six months incarceration period whereas everyone else abandon Shepard. Its written in the codex, Kaidan/Ashley have been supporting Shepard's claims about the reaper's existence and incoming invasion for years and is one of the reason why the military still trust Shepard despite his wariness of Cerberus influence. Kaidan did abandon his family, his friends and home to rescue Shepard from Earth without much of a protest. He already proven his loyalty when it matters but it was Shepard who need to convince him that she is worthy of it.
As for Garrus, I don't like romancing him because he justified continued death of billions of unborn children due to his prejudice over adult krogans. I know there's a lot of Garrusmancers who simply headcanon it out from their games and simply laugh it off as him being "Just Garrus" and worship him as Mr Awkwardly Wonderful but it really soured the romance experience for me. He's someone who like things simple and uncomplicated and like to make bad jokes out of everything when he get uncomfortable like responsibility, accountability and forethought. His concept of justice is mostly what he felt about it rather than what he understand about it and unlike Batman, he thought the law never work and its easier to kill them all. All Omega mercs selling tainted eezo are bad guys and need hard lesson of terminator justice and they're the bad guy again for trying to kill his people who tried to kill them.... and also things like a thousand years long state-sanctioned genocide on Krogan children isn't a mistake... I'm still shocked whenever I heard him say these things in my playthroughs.. much less romancing him and sharing this view with him due to this excessive adoration of him. Its just incomprehensible for me.
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Post by hanklea on Aug 29, 2016 2:35:30 GMT
Yeah, I see your point about Garrus and can understand why this would put you off.
I don't see him the same way. I see him more of an 'ends justifies the means' kind of guy, which is something I can understand. But then again I don't think the genophage was such a terrible idea either - it was a sensible solution to what was the problem at the time, but the council races erred because they didn't foresee the terrible cultural impacts it would have on the Krogan psyche over the long term. They are sapient species after all, and can't just be culled like kangaroos. However my Shep always cures the genophage because if this war with the reapers ends up being a drawn out war of attrition then we would need a huge source of replaceable shock troops. The exact reason the Krogan were a threat to the galaxy make them the ideal soldiers to help save it.
But as I said, Garrus is an 'ends justifies the means' kind of guy. And if you (or your Shep!) find that an abhorrent attitude to have I can definitely see why you wouldn't want to romance him, and by no means are you wrong in thinking so. I'm just sharing why I see differently!
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Post by Mistral on Aug 29, 2016 4:19:47 GMT
I feel that Kaidan's romance definitely rewards a faithful Shepard. You go one whole game without him, so when you reunite with him, it's such a bittersweet feeling. It's also nice if you like a little conflict. Which I do. I guess I'm one of the few who was really into the Horizon scene. It broke my heart (TRAGICALLY GOOGLING "WILL KAIDAN JOIN MY CREW IN ME2?") but it also made me even more eager to get him back, lol. Garrus' content is very nice even as a friend. But honestly... I couldn't get past the flirting attempts from ME2. It went so against my Shepard's character, which is why I didn't pursue the relationship with him at first. Kaidan and Shepard's romance was always acknowledged as fraternization and caused understandable tension, which was refreshingly realistic. In the end, I'd say you should make your decision based on what kind of Shepard you want to play as. Garrus' romance is experimental, passionate, maybe even a little edgy. Kaidan's romance is grounded, trialed and humble. Choose the one that best compliments the traits you want to see in your Shepard. Hope you try both eventually.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 29, 2016 4:25:38 GMT
Honestly, the game didn't tell you clearly that Kaidan is there to support Shepard during the six months incarceration period whereas everyone else abandon Shepard. Its written in the codex, Kaidan/Ashley have been supporting Shepard's claims about the reaper's existence and incoming invasion for years and is one of the reason why the military still trust Shepard despite his wariness of Cerberus influence. Kaidan did abandon his family, his friends and home to rescue Shepard from Earth without much of a protest. He already proven his loyalty when it matters but it was Shepard who need to convince him that she is worthy of it. As for Garrus, I don't like romancing him because he justified continued death of billions of unborn children due to his prejudice over adult krogans. I know there's a lot of Garrusmancers who simply headcanon it out from their games and simply laugh it off as him being "Just Garrus" and worship him as Mr Awkwardly Wonderful but it really soured the romance experience for me. He's someone who like things simple and uncomplicated and like to make bad jokes out of everything when he get uncomfortable like responsibility, accountability and forethought. His concept of justice is mostly what he felt about it rather than what he understand about it and unlike Batman, he thought the law never work and its easier to kill them all. All Omega mercs selling tainted eezo are bad guys and need hard lesson of terminator justice and they're the bad guy again for trying to kill his people who tried to kill them.... and also things like a thousand years long state-sanctioned genocide on Krogan children isn't a mistake... I'm still shocked whenever I heard him say these things in my playthroughs.. much less romancing him and sharing this view with him due to this excessive adoration of him. Its just incomprehensible for me. Technically, they didn't abandon Shepard. They all had their own issues to take care of. Garrus went off to do something about the Reapers given how dismal the situation was, Tali went to try to rally her people, Grunt went to train and harden himself, Thane had to reconcile some final important touches before he died, etc, etc. It'd be unfair to say they were sitting on their butts doing nothing the same way it'd be unfair to say Kaidan/Ashley sat back and wasted time while Shep faced a suicide mission without support from them. Kaidan/Ashley were clearly working though we weren't given enough information on what was going on. As for Garrus' stint on Omega, even HE said he wasted time there doing things that didn't matter in the end. By ME3, he's trying to do something productive about the Reapers and he gets a team to prepare the Turians for it. I don't think Garrus ever laughed off something like the genophage though. He's not noted for having any unique opinion about it that several others don't already have (Hi Mordin). The genophage certainly wasn't meant to be an easy thing, but then, the Krogan do not make it easy either. Threatening to throw the entire Citadel in space should they get their numbers back isn't a light threat. So, a few fetuses already dead are lighter than say, full out sterilization. He did say some really insensitive things back in ME1 and promptly gets verbally stomped on by Wrex. Is it any different from Kaidan becoming racist in ME1 if Shep verbally overpowers him with a persuasion check? Both grow beyond ME1 and become their own identities. He also will apologize to Tali later for it as well, so he does grow beyond what he started out as. Sure, he's not perfect, no one expects him to be. He's kicked himself over and over again for failing his team on Omega and he always will.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Aug 29, 2016 7:23:12 GMT
Technically, they didn't abandon Shepard. They all had their own issues to take care of. Garrus went off to do something about the Reapers given how dismal the situation was, Tali went to try to rally her people, Grunt went to train and harden himself, Thane had to reconcile some final important touches before he died, etc, etc. It'd be unfair to say they were sitting on their butts doing nothing the same way it'd be unfair to say Kaidan/Ashley sat back and wasted time while Shep faced a suicide mission without support from them. Kaidan/Ashley were clearly working though we weren't given enough information on what was going on. As for Garrus' stint on Omega, even HE said he wasted time there doing things that didn't matter in the end. By ME3, he's trying to do something productive about the Reapers and he gets a team to prepare the Turians for it. I don't think Garrus ever laughed off something like the genophage though. He's not noted for having any unique opinion about it that several others don't already have (Hi Mordin). The genophage certainly wasn't meant to be an easy thing, but then, the Krogan do not make it easy either. Threatening to throw the entire Citadel in space should they get their numbers back isn't a light threat. So, a few fetuses already dead are lighter than say, full out sterilization. He did say some really insensitive things back in ME1 and promptly gets verbally stomped on by Wrex. Is it any different from Kaidan becoming racist in ME1 if Shep verbally overpowers him with a persuasion check? Both grow beyond ME1 and become their own identities. He also will apologize to Tali later for it as well, so he does grow beyond what he started out as. Sure, he's not perfect, no one expects him to be. He's kicked himself over and over again for failing his team on Omega and he always will. During the six months incarceration period and Shepard's trial, it was only Hackett, Anderson and Kaidan/Ashley who testify for Shepard and manage to convince the tribunal from convicting Shepard as a war criminal. None of ME2 characters stayed with Shepard for this including Miranda Lawson who could testify that Shepard doesn't have a choice about working with Cerberus and how she rebuild Shepard from death. But even among all old squadmates, Liara still working with Hackett to find a way to destroy the reapers, Tali becoming an Admiral for her people, Wrex uniting his people with the intention to prepare themselves for reaper invasion (he did said it himself). But Garrus spend exactly three years sitting on his butt rather than talk to his father and his uncle Fedorian about the reapers and choose exactly last minute to convince his people to prepare against the invasion... which does absolutely nothing since he hardly affect any war assets anyway. But considering Sparatus answers directly to the Primarch, doesn't this make it ironic that he always openly ridicule Shepard? You have a bro who have the most political pull on Turian Hiararchy via nepotism to make them take Shepard seriously and he does exactly nothing? This is how Garrus think. Eve is admirable for enduring the genophage but that child doesn't deserve to live. That child is Wrex's son. When he said if it was up to him he would accept the Dalatrass offer. It showed the extend of his bigotry toward the krogan race. He believed killing Krogan babies as the right way to oppress another race, whose only crime was their longevity and threatening presence to the dominant power structure in Council space. Garrus could easily wipe out an entire generation of children and kill Wrex's son if he have the power to do so. This wasn't something I would casually forgive and dress up as a simple character flaw because Garrus romance is the most adorable thing ever. Its even more disgusting that Wrex even considered him as a friend. Understand that the Genophage cure is only a mutagen that mutate endocrine organs functions to allow live birth. It didn't correct the original and modified genophage strain at all. Even with the a possibility of Krogan Empire under Wreav, it would take them centuries to build up the numbers. And even then, the Human are allied with them and the Turians owed their lives to them. The only ones who are threatened by the rise of the Krogan was really just the Salarians and the Asari. The extend of Renegade Kaidan's stance was that the alien council was useless as f. He'll never go all out racist even if you tried. There's no ambient dialogue of Kaidan wishing death and extinction on all aliens and their children either.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 29, 2016 9:07:02 GMT
During the six months incarceration period and Shepard's trial, it was only Hackett, Anderson and Kaidan/Ashley who testify for Shepard and manage to convince the tribunal from convicting Shepard as a war criminal. None of ME2 characters stayed with Shepard for this including Miranda Lawson who could testify that Shepard doesn't have a choice about working with Cerberus and how she rebuild Shepard from death. But even among all old squadmates, Liara still working with Hackett to find a way to destroy the reapers, Tali becoming an Admiral for her people, Wrex uniting his people with the intention to prepare themselves for reaper invasion (he did said it himself). But Garrus spend exactly three years sitting on his butt rather than talk to his father and his uncle Fedorian about the reapers and choose exactly last minute to convince his people to prepare against the invasion... which does absolutely nothing since he hardly affect any war assets anyway. But considering Sparatus answers directly to the Primarch, doesn't this make it ironic that he always openly ridicule Shepard? You have a bro who have the most political pull on Turian Hiararchy via nepotism to make them take Shepard seriously and he does exactly nothing? This is how Garrus think. Eve is admirable for enduring the genophage but that child doesn't deserve to live. That child is Wrex's son. When he said if it was up to him he would accept the Dalatrass offer. It showed the extend of his bigotry toward the krogan race. He believed killing Krogan babies as the right way to oppress another race, whose only crime was their longevity and threatening presence to the dominant power structure in Council space. Garrus could easily wipe out an entire generation of children and kill Wrex's son if he have the power to do so. This wasn't something I would casually forgive and dress up as a simple character flaw because Garrus romance is the most adorable thing ever. Its even more disgusting that Wrex even considered him as a friend. Understand that the Genophage cure is only a mutagen that mutate endocrine organs functions to allow live birth. It didn't correct the original and modified genophage strain at all. Even with the a possibility of Krogan Empire under Wreav, it would take them centuries to build up the numbers. And even then, the Human are allied with them and the Turians owed their lives to them. The only ones who are threatened by the rise of the Krogan was really just the Salarians and the Asari. The extend of Renegade Kaidan's stance was that the alien council was useless as f. He'll never go all out racist even if you tried. There's no ambient dialogue of Kaidan wishing death and extinction on all aliens and their children either. Ok, I'm still wondering; how would any of the others' testimony help since none of them were aware of the Arrival mission that Shepard underwent alone? Especially since they're part of a team hired by Cerberus? Wouldn't their accounts be considered highly suspect? As for the events of ME2, everyone was working their own agenda. Wrex was trying to unite the krogan (and only making progress because the genophage was working in his favor). Tali went back to her people...and does research that got dropped in ME3. Nothing relating to the Reapers. Liara went off after the Shadow Broker and didn't really make any progress with stopping the Reapers. Until after ME2, same time as when Garrus went to his father for help. But he didn't know his father could take his concerns to the Primarch. He was grasping at straws for anything at that point. He's still doing something about the Reapers, same way he contributed in the suicide mission by offering weaponry that kept people alive, by helping Shepard stay alive in missions for people who choose to take him along. His contributions are tangible to those players. We don't know what Kaidan's been doing, we can speculate he's been training his biotic squad, doing investigations for the alliance, all we know is that he refused to help Shepard for legitimate concerns and is not there. But that's not a strike against him whereas for some reason Garrus can do nothing right in your eyes. And what is odd is that you're singling out Garrus of all people regarding the genophage. What parts of his concerns regarding the krogan any different from what others think about them? When did he ever say he condones krogan suffering? When was he ever about oppressing another race? His concerns are legitimate; especially if Wreav is in charge. Who says it's only going to take centuries to repopulate if females can lay clutches of up to hundreds of eggs? Entire colony worlds never recovered because of krogan inhabitants. And that was when the Krogan were still allies of the Asari and Salarians. Alliances meant nothing when resources became strained during the Krogan rebellions. And as a side thought, why is it acceptable for Kaidan to become bigoted because of Shepard but Garrus is the next Godwin comparison for his flaws?
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Post by dalinne on Aug 29, 2016 9:48:35 GMT
You don't need to make Garrus awful in order to make Kaidan look better or viceversa, you know. I love Kaidan's character and Kaidan's romance, even when I only completed the second and just once with my MaleShep. Nobody does nothing effective against the reapers between ME1-ME2. Well, you can argue that only Liara does something effective (collaborate to bring Shepard's back). Kaidan and Garrus do the same exactly thing (in my view) during that gap of two years: trying to recover from Shepard's death.
Kaidan does it the only way he can: focusing in his work in the Alliance, working to exhaustion in order to not have time to think or remember the person he loves is dead (because man or woman, romanced or not, Kaidan loves Shepard, that's even more clear when you see he could approach the romance for the first time in ME3 with MaleShep and once more and more directly with FemShep in ME3). Garrus, on the other hand, does something similar to Kaidan's duel in a very different way: he also focuses in work, but when that fails because he doesn't believe in that anymore (aka. C-Sec, aka Spectre Candidacy) he goes to Omega trying to make a difference and maybe dying in the process. A very Turian way of mourning. In my view, Garrus is also in love with Shepard, altough that feeling is initially just platonic and nothing more if Shepard doesn't do advances to him. Garrus doesn't have a particular interest in humans as he states, but he absolutely is attracted to Shepard (as he also states).
The only moment Garrus makes racists remarks are in ME1, when he only has the experience of working in C-Sec, where he has worked with other species (such as Salarians, Asari and Humans) but not with Krogan and Quarians, remarkably the two races he makes some patronizing and bigoted remarks in ME1. In ME2 and so on, after he has worked in Shepard's team and with his own multicultural team betweem ME1-ME2, he has matured.
As opuspace says: really, REALLY, HAVE YOU PLAYED ME3 WITHOUT WREX???? You simply cannot cure the Genophage! AND I ALWAYS CURE THE GENOPHAGE!!! Wreav is a potential danger. He is a psycopath. He doesn't blush to say he will start a reckoning day or he will use the fear of a reckoning day of the Krogan race to blackmail the council. The only moment Garrus is GLAD you didn't cure the Genophage is when Wreav is in charge. If Wrex is in charge, he is sad Wrex died for it. He is sad Eve died for it. And you can say despite his friendship with some Krogans, Garrus is insecure of curing the Genophage at some point: well, the Krogan is for the Turians what Batarians are for Humans. I don't see Garrus wiping out an entire species for ANY REASON, but he can understand the complications of changing the political (and awful) balance was formed from before. And that's the point: Garrus don't have the political weight of making decisions about other races but Shepard has. And he knows how dificult is for his friend (and maybe also his lover) to make awful decisions in the middle of a war for the survival of organics from Space Cthulhu. Some people says Garrus never questions anything you do, but that's not true. He will show his disagreement about how you handle Geth-Quarian conflict if you sided with the Geth and Tali killed herself. He is not even sure of saving the Rachni once more. And there are more little moments like that. The difference between a blind follower and a sympathetic one is he is aware of any choice you make was made for a reason and instead of second-guess any decision you make he puts himself in your shoes. That is the conversation about one million people dying over here in order to ten million people live over there.
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