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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 28, 2017 20:57:23 GMT
TL;DR: DA4 should have a Story vs. Choice mode set at the very start, where Story removes the illusion of choice and does cutscenes as set pieces with no dialogue wheel, while Choice puts an NPC in the protagonist's shoes and you, the PC, can do whatever you want, including ignoring the story altogether.
A common complaint about DAI is that is has too much filler, not enough in-depth story. One of the many contributors to filler are the many map zones that have little or no connection to the main story. So a common remedy suggested for DA4 is to have fewer maps.
Another, less common complaint is that there wasn't enough player agency in DAI. You can't break out of the heroic "Chosen One" role the Inquisitor is forced into, there are very few degrees of freedom, and you have to follow the main story to experience the best content or even to unlock the many map zones mentioned above. On the other hand, the extra maps created a small amount of emergent gameplay, at least for explorers.
Thinking about all this, it occurred to me that these are symptoms of the same problem: the tension between strong storytelling needing to have full control of all characters for best effect, and players needing full control to make their own stories and discover new ways to enjoy the game (emergent gameplay). And that the criticism of DAI boils down to compromising too much between those extremes and trying too hard to find a middle ground between them, making everyone somewhat unhappy.
So, why not give up on compromise in DA4 and just offer both extremes as a choice?
Offer an explicit player choice, kind of like a difficulty level setting, where you can choose either Story or Choice (or Freedom or Emergent Gameplay or whatever label for the maximum degrees of freedom extreme that would be most self-explanatory). Probably needs to be a game-global setting that you set at the start and can't change, or perhaps, you are allowed to change from Story to Choice, but not the reverse, and once you change, you can't go back.
Story takes control of your character. You can still choose the look, class, race, gender, etc. as always, but once you finish with that, you relinquish control of the character during cutscenes. There would be no dialogue wheel. Instead of paying lip service to dialogue choices that all end up driving to the same result, just don't even bother to offer the illusion of choice in the first place. There might be big A/B plot choices like Mages vs. Templars, but only if Bioware is willing to write the combinatorics of the story as fully and deeply as a linear plot would be. BTW, one of the reasons I don't really like "Choice" as a label for the other option is because it would imply you can't make big plot choices. But I can't think of anything better.
Choice sacrifices the story for total freedom to do what you wish with your character. You can completely ignore the story if you want -- the story will at best be in the background that some NPC is doing, taking the place of the PC. This frees up the PC to just go do whatever. All zones would be open, nothing would be locked, other than scripted adventures with locked sections that are unlocked through progress. The game would be as close to an open sandbox as possible. The story might be abbreviated, and set-piece cutscenes might be replaced with dialogue-wheel interactions that, instead of moving the plot forward, change attitudes of NPCs. Like the factional karma system in Bethesda games. The goal of dialogue should shift towards roleplaying and diplomacy, instead of being constrained by the needs of the main story.
During the start of the game, the Choice option should detect if this is a first playthrough and put up a big warning that you might want to try Story first. It should still allow Choice, but some effort should be made to prevent first-time players getting into something they didn't intend.
Speaking of Bethesda, yes, this does move DA4 a bit closer to the Skyrim style of game in Choice mode, but let's face it, Bethesda sucks at Story. DA4 can be a better sandbox experience by taking a step towards Skyrim, without sacrificing the best-in-class storytelling strength of Bioware.
What do you think?
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 28, 2017 21:40:18 GMT
I don't think I'd want to play the game in either of those modes. I play Bioware games for a strong story that I can define the main character of.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 28, 2017 22:45:15 GMT
I don't think I'd want to play the game in either of those modes. I play Bioware games for a strong story that I can define the main character of. So you were pretty frustrated with DAI, then? Because it doesn't let you do much defining of your own character.
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 28, 2017 22:51:28 GMT
I don't think I'd want to play the game in either of those modes. I play Bioware games for a strong story that I can define the main character of. So you were pretty frustrated with DAI, then? Because it doesn't let you do much defining of your own character. Oh? I managed to do quite a lot defining of my characters.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 28, 2017 22:57:59 GMT
So you were pretty frustrated with DAI, then? Because it doesn't let you do much defining of your own character. Oh? I managed to do quite a lot defining of my characters. For example? Did you define any characters that weren't a hero? That weren't The Chosen One? That turned away from the leadership of the Inquisition and gave it over to someone else? Lived the life of a wandering hermit? That's what I mean. Roles. As in, roleplaying.
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Dr Obfuscate
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 28, 2017 23:07:18 GMT
Oh? I managed to do quite a lot defining of my characters. For example? Did you define any characters that weren't a hero? That weren't The Chosen One? That turned away from the leadership of the Inquisition and gave it over to someone else? Lived the life of a wandering hermit? That's what I mean. Roles. As in, roleplaying. I don't see how not being able to play every possible character role every possible person can dream up disqualifies a game from being into role-playing. There are a multitude of character defining choices to be made. By your definition we have yet to see character defining and roleplaying within the dragon age series. Sure it is not as open as a pen and paper campaign can be. But what computer game is?
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 28, 2017 23:29:19 GMT
Roleplaying in a CRPG is always a compromise. I'm OK with that. I try to work what sort of characters can work in this game, within the bounds of the choices that are on offer, and then pick the one that looks interesting.
(One thing I do find important is that the game shouldn't pull the rug from under me by making a character type that was earlier supported impossible. I felt the game kind of snatched away the ability to play a Dalish believer in Trespasser, which was a bit of a problem. It didn't even really offer sufficient ability to represent a loss of faith)
I don't find the bounds in DAI particularly limiting, to be honest. Partly that is perhaps because I'm generally pretty happy with playing a reasonably conventional "hero" character and thus value options that add nuance and allow me to differentiate between different heroes, whereas outright villain options, or even truly apathetic ones don't add so much for me.
Honestly, even in the original and perhaps quintessential form of RPGs - Tabletop, with a live DM/GM - you don't really have freedom to play any role you can dream up, or at least the game will work better if you don't act like that. A good player should try to bring a character to the table who'll engage properly with the story and the rest of the party, and will be prepared to tweak things around if necessary in order to do so.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 29, 2017 1:14:27 GMT
I was more frustrated with the lack of personality choices in DAI, rather than role choices. I'm ok with my PC being forced through unhappy circumstance to save the world, since that's the entire premise of the game, but I should be able to RP a character that is doing so begrudgingly, one who doesn't turn into an eloquent leader just by virtue of having a magic hand. With DAO and DA2, we did get some variety of personality choices. In fact, when I was playing my jerk Warden, some of the options were so awful that even she wouldn't have picked them.
With the Inquisitor, though, I feel like our choices were 1) Bleeding Heart Goody Two-Shoes, 2) "Dad Joke" Goody Two-Shoes, and 3) Occasionally Very Racist Goody Two-Shoes. No matter how I envisioned my Inquisitor in the beginning, there was nothing I could do in-game to create a PC with no real leadership potential who is only putting up with the Inquisition because they know their own life is on the line. Or, even more than that, a decent but very resentful person who is building up a lot of anger over the turn their life has taken.
Your idea would not address my concerns (though maybe they will address someone else's). The plot would not need to change to accommodate a bit more variety for the PC's personality.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 29, 2017 2:04:50 GMT
For example? Did you define any characters that weren't a hero? That weren't The Chosen One? That turned away from the leadership of the Inquisition and gave it over to someone else? Lived the life of a wandering hermit? That's what I mean. Roles. As in, roleplaying. I don't see how not being able to play every possible character role every possible person can dream up disqualifies a game from being into role-playing. There are a multitude of character defining choices to be made. By your definition we have yet to see character defining and roleplaying within the dragon age series. Sure it is not as open as a pen and paper campaign can be. But what computer game is? I agree that nothing is perfect, but there's a lot of room for improvement in DA games compared to others. Here are some of my runs from other games for comparison: Fallout 31. First run, vanilla helpful hero, followed the main quest 2. Evil jerk, blew up Megaton, kidnapped and sold people into slavery, anything for loot, ignored the main quest 3. Raider, didn't even live in a standard PC home, lived in a ruined house in the Wasteland, killed other raiders for sport, ignored the main quest Skyrim1. First run, vanilla helpful hero mage, followed the main quest, took neither side in the civil war 2. Dark Brotherhood assassin, sided with the Stormcloaks, completed the civil war quest but not the main quest 3. Thieve's guild, sided with the Empire, completed the civil war quest but not the main quest 4. Blacksmith, didn't even start the main quest (no dragons), just wandered from village to village crafting goods and selling them for a living (emergent) 5. Cowardly travelling merchant, didn't even start the main quest (no dragons), did no fighting even for self-protection (barring the very few times the game forces you to fight), hired a mercenary guard to do all the fighting (emergent) So it is possible to create your own story with a character that you define in Bethesda games. There are still constraints and you can't do absolutely anything -- for example, you can't declare yourself a Daedra prince and rule Oblivion, though that would be fun -- but despite a reasonable number of constraints, there can be a lot more degrees of freedom for defining your character and making up your own story. The trade-off is that when you do want to go deep into a great scripted story, Bethesda comes up pretty short. They're just not very good at that. They do create some brilliant characters from time to time: Sergeant RL-3, Esbern, Cicero, Raul Tejada, a few others, but for a memorable, sweeping story, not so much. I'm not saying Skyrim or Fallout is better than DA. They each have their strengths. Why not combine those strengths in DA4, without forcing a compromise between the conflicting goals of each strength, and let the player decide?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 29, 2017 2:13:03 GMT
The plot would not need to change to accommodate a bit more variety for the PC's personality. On the contrary, I think that is precisely why your degrees of freedom in defining personality is so limited in a DA game with a great story. Not the "plot", per se, but certainly all the dialogue and characterization. I imagine that it is very hard to write a great story if the writer can't control, or at least put narrow boundaries around, the personality of the main character. In the example you gave, an enthusiastic hero vs. a reluctant hero, I would think that the dialogue would need drastically different treatment, arguably every element of the script would have to be nuanced to reflect those personalities. For example, Cass might be supportive of an enthusiastic hero and constantly chiding a reluctant one, while Solas would be suspicious of an enthusiastic hero and supportive of a reluctant one. You'd have to examine every line of dialogue those NPCs spoke to insure they were consistent with their reactions. Or, you have to drive everything to the neutral average, which is what we actually got. And that's just one dimension of personality! What about courageous vs. cowardly? Selfless vs. selfish? Romantic vs. practical? The combinatorics explode even for just a small handful of dimensions.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 29, 2017 2:25:18 GMT
The plot would not need to change to accommodate a bit more variety for the PC's personality. On the contrary, I think that is precisely why your degrees of freedom in defining personality is so limited in a DA game with a great story. Not the "plot", per se, but certainly all the dialogue and characterization. I imagine that it is very hard to write a great story if the writer can't control, or at least put narrow boundaries around, the personality of the main character. In the example you gave, an enthusiastic hero vs. a reluctant hero, I would think that the dialogue would need drastically different treatment, arguably every element of the script would have to be nuanced to reflect those personalities. For example, Cass might be supportive of an enthusiastic hero and constantly chiding a reluctant one, while Solas would be suspicious of an enthusiastic hero and supportive of a reluctant one. You'd have to examine every line of dialogue those NPCs spoke to insure they were consistent with their reactions. Or, you have to drive everything to the neutral average, which is what we actually got. And that's just one dimension of personality! What about courageous vs. cowardly? Selfless vs. selfish? Romantic vs. practical? The combinatorics explode even for just a small handful of dimensions. Fair enough, but as I said, even DAO and DA2 offered far more variety for the PC's personality than DAI did. I don't think enormous extremes are necessary, they just need to not stick to the middle ground the entire time. The result of the neutral average was a bland Inquisitor. Nearly all of their personality has to happen in my head, which is not the case with the Warden or Hawke. Both the Warden and Hawke were respectively forced to save Ferelden and...uh, do something to Kirkwall...regardless of the PC's personality, but the player got to decide whether they were enthusiastic about doing so, only reluctantly participating, participating only for the fame/money, etc. The extreme of a Skyrim-style open world isn't...and wasn't...necessary.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 29, 2017 2:40:53 GMT
On the contrary, I think that is precisely why your degrees of freedom in defining personality is so limited in a DA game with a great story. Not the "plot", per se, but certainly all the dialogue and characterization. I imagine that it is very hard to write a great story if the writer can't control, or at least put narrow boundaries around, the personality of the main character. In the example you gave, an enthusiastic hero vs. a reluctant hero, I would think that the dialogue would need drastically different treatment, arguably every element of the script would have to be nuanced to reflect those personalities. For example, Cass might be supportive of an enthusiastic hero and constantly chiding a reluctant one, while Solas would be suspicious of an enthusiastic hero and supportive of a reluctant one. You'd have to examine every line of dialogue those NPCs spoke to insure they were consistent with their reactions. Or, you have to drive everything to the neutral average, which is what we actually got. And that's just one dimension of personality! What about courageous vs. cowardly? Selfless vs. selfish? Romantic vs. practical? The combinatorics explode even for just a small handful of dimensions. Fair enough, but as I said, even DAO and DA2 offered far more variety for the PC's personality than DAI did. I don't think enormous extremes are necessary, they just need to not stick to the middle ground the entire time. And I'll say fair enough in turn. You're right, DAO arguably made a better compromise, by baking a fixed number of personality values into the dialogue. It's still a big compromise, and if what you really want to play as a character isn't represented by the baked in options, you're still frustrated, but yeah, better than DAI, that's for sure.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2017 2:49:16 GMT
I'm not interested in going to either extreme. A game where the main story is entirely optional and there's no real "plot" to speak of makes me want to heave.
DA2 had the most defined hero of all - Hawke had a certain past, a certain family, and a limited selection of personalities - and while I absolutely enjoyed that, I also wouldn't want to have the protagonist be quite that defined ever again. Mostly because of race selection.
I'd rather they continue to do what they do best: straddle the line. Interactive stories with customizable protagonists.
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