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Post by Ieldra on Aug 10, 2016 9:20:27 GMT
In all the discussions about mages and templars, most people have implicitly assumed that the mageborn are what I'd call a "natural faction", meaning that they have an intrinsic identity by virtue of being mageborn, so that they naturally associate with other mageborn regardless of other differences, in order to further common interests as mageborn.
The alternative picture is that there is no such natural affiliation, that being mageborn is an accident of birth that's in no way more important than other affiliations acquired through culture, education, learning etc..
This is important because the dominant ideology of southern Thedas asserts that "the mages" will become rulers and oppress everyone else if they're not kept in the Circles. This assumes that the natural difference there is - in having the potential for magic - will create an identity that influences other preferences - like, for instance, the desire to rule as a group. The question here is: if a mageborn has the desire to rule, why should she desire to rule in the name of and for the mageborn, rather than for her nation, her religion, her personal power etc... Why is is that people assume that if a mageborn comes to rule, this will mean that "mages rule"?
The answer, of course, is that if you are perceived as different because of some trait, then people will be likely to assume that you will associate with others having the same trait, and possibly work against you if you don't share that trait. Irrational, but that's how people are. Being perceived as different is problematic because it masks that the mageborn are people. They want, to a very large degree, the same things all people want: to live reasonably happy and fulfilling lives, to have friends and families, or not, like other people, etc. etc.. If the mageborn embrace that separateness and construct an identity from being mageborn, they enhance that perception of difference, and any potential of the majority to see them as "having magic, but really like other people" will be diminished.
Now, unlike other perceived differences we have in the real world, being mageborn is actually a *significant* difference. The question, then, is this: is this difference signficant enough to qualify the mageborn as a natural faction? Will the interactions between mageborn and non-mageborn be weighted enough, because of the difference in personal power, to make them intrinsically problematic? Will it be unavoidable that mageborn and non-mageborn see each other more as "other" than as "just other people"?
If the answer is "no", then integration into society is possible and desirable, and any identity politics based on a perception of difference is a double-edged sword: it may give you more political influence as a group, but it will enhance others' perception of difference and make it much harder to create a society where it doesn't matter if you're mageborn or not, apart from areas where your magic - on an individual basis - actually becomes important.
If the answer is "yes", then integration is unlikely and the mageborn are indeed better advised to act as a group and create a separate society of their own. Co-existence may still be possible, and conflicts may arise and come to an end again like between any other groups, but we'll have in effect a different race with a much better claim of intrinsic difference than anything we have in the real world, and the mageborn might become a different species over time.
Segregation or integration? Where do you stand? For the purpose of this discussion, "segregation" should not be regarded as a bad word. The Circles segregate in a bad way (for the mageborn, at least), but not any segregation need be of that type, or imposed from without.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 10, 2016 12:30:40 GMT
Personally, I think it's better that it's better if mages were integrated into society and magic treated as a matter of fact phenomena. Caution should be exercised, like registration and institutions that help and teach individuals with such power. Locking people up with no interaction with the outside world and having them do nothing with their skills seems a huge waste of potential advancing society and is extremely unhealthy for the people being quarantined with no emotional outlets. As for the association of all mages being inherently dangerous because they'll try to rule over everyone, that sounds like gestalt grouping, and while it's not entirely incorrect (Mages ARE people, with the same chances to crave power as a mundane) it's all the more reason for mundanes to find ways to counteract it WITH mages' help in researching it. It comes off as insane to gimp your own mages when there's an entire nation of mages nearby who are free and have had their entire lives to maneuver in politics. I guess it's better not to presume that just because one is a mage, that the mage will default to fellow mages unless they're in an environment that groups them together in the first place. Kind of a chicken or egg, self-made prophecy or whatever metaphor I'm messing up while sleep deprived.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 10, 2016 14:11:01 GMT
Well southern Thedas fed into that segregation idea because they kept mages locked away from the general populace. There is no particular reason why a mage should not identify with their local community rather than simply other mages, provided they are allowed to grow up there, form friendships with non-mages and help other people see that mages are not to be feared simply because they have those powers.
Even in Tevinter part of the reason that the mages rule is because they are also the top of the noble tree. Whilst theoretically an Altus could be a non-mage, they pride themselves on their heritage of descending from ancient Dreamers and believe they are superior because of that and because magic is a gift of the gods or god, depending on which era you are in. However, that is not very different really from southern nobles, particularly in Orlais, who think they rule by Divine Right and this entitles them to treat commoners as they please.
I've always felt the true reason that the nobility supported the system in the Circles, even allowing their own children to become part of it, is that it then ensured that there were not potentially powerful people in the peasant community who could challenge their authority. This seems borne out by the fact that mage children from poor backgrounds are hauled off, often to other areas entirely, never to see their families again, whereas the children of nobility are permitted to stay in touch, receive visits and are allowed out once properly trained. So they identify with their noble families and the status quo, while the peasant mages have no such link and so the only community and fellowship they do have is with other mages.
Mages are of varying talent and ability, just as with non-mages. Naturally the most talented members of any community are likely to rise to the top if allowed to do so and society generally benefits from allowing this. The problem in both southern Thedas and Tevinter is that this is not the case. People are at the top because of the family they are born into, whether southern nobility or Altus mage. On rare occasions a person from a commoner background may achieve higher rank but this is either due to the times they are born into, for example war often helps elevate the talented (Loghain) or because they have the backing of a powerful person who is already part of the ruling class (Vivienne: Orlais, Tidarion: ancient Tevinter, Aurelian Titus: modern Tevinter.)
Calpernia had considerably more natural talent than many Altus mages but because she was a slave, she would never have the opportunities for advancement that they would. Part of her political agenda was the elevation of all slaves, mage and non-mage, to true citizenship of the Imperium. Even when she had been given the opportunity for personal advancement, she didn't forget her roots and ultimately, if you make her aware of what Corypheus was planning, she rejects him not just because of what he intended to do to her but "if he would misuse me he would misuse them". So to my mind, it does not necessarily follow that mages will only club together with fellow mages or that they will automatically end up ruling. It all depends on their background, character and who they identify with as their peers.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 10, 2016 14:41:45 GMT
I tend to think that no, being a mage is not an inherent identity. As we have seen, all cultures in Thedas have mages, and they can come from very different cultural backgrounds and religions, etc. Even within the Circles there are different fraternities and schools of magic, etc.
I think though, that in Southern Thedas, mages are indeed also seen as a separate class or identity group, due to the Circle system. And in Tevinter also, where being a mage is heavily wrapped up in their class system. It's hardly just mages, though, most of these nations in Thedas that we have seen so far, have a very defined and rigid class system. There is also the warrior class (Templars), priesthood/clergy (Chantry), as well as the aristocracy and nobility, merchant class, and peasant or slave class. Not to mention, criminal or underground classes, and refugees, etc.
I think for the early Andrastians though, mages to them would have been both the nobility/aristocratic elite ruling class, as well as the priesthood, all rolled into one. While they were born out of a slave rebellion, so I think that context is important to why they fear mages ruling. This to them was as much about freedom from slavery, as it was about magic.
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Post by outlaworacle on Aug 10, 2016 17:57:19 GMT
Well it does raise the question of what is different about mages that makes them mages? It doesn't seem like it's possible for just anyone to learn magic, you have to be born with it and it seems to operate both at random and as a result of intentional breeding so I would assume it's genetic. The cases where the family is not known for having magic would be like recessive genes taking precedence. I don't know if "genetics" exactly works the same in Thedas as it does in our world though.
So shouldn't mages identify more with each other, even aside from their shared social stigma? Aren't they in a very literal and physical way, not the same as other humans and elves?
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 10, 2016 18:43:26 GMT
Well it does raise the question of what is different about mages that makes them mages? It doesn't seem like it's possible for just anyone to learn magic, you have to be born with it and it seems to operate both at random and as a result of intentional breeding so I would assume it's genetic. The cases where the family is not known for having magic would be like recessive genes taking precedence. I don't know if "genetics" exactly works the same in Thedas as it does in our world though. So shouldn't mages identify more with each other, even aside from their shared social stigma? Aren't they in a very literal and physical way, not the same as other humans and elves? I think they do identify with each other over the shared stigma, etc. But is it genetic? It might be, but the fact it both shows up in families but can also show up spontaneously with no family history, suggests it might be an acquired ability. Either as a result of some kind of mutation (lyrium exposure?), or a learned trait passed down from patents, or maybe contact with spirits. Spirit contact might make sense, since spirits have the ability to reverse tranquillity, so maybe they can also restore a non mage's connection to the fade in the right circumstance, Will be interesting to see if they ever explain it.
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Post by Nayawk on Aug 10, 2016 21:36:07 GMT
Genetics in Thedas hasn't really been explained, but I'd assume that we are talking about a random mutation that can spring up in any birth, but that once in a family has as much chance as any other genetic trait to be past on.
As for Mage Identity, we meet a wide range of mages through all the games that range from Mage First everything else second to Why am I lumped in with these crazy people. So I'd suggest it is down to individual choice how important being a mage is to that person. I'm actually quite weary of saying "Mages think this" or "Mage feel that" because as with real life there is alway a section of that group going 'pump the brakes you don't speak for me'.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 12, 2016 8:36:02 GMT
As for Mage Identity, we meet a wide range of mages through all the games that range from Mage First everything else second to Why am I lumped in with these crazy people. So I'd suggest it is down to individual choice how important being a mage is to that person. I'm actually quite weary of saying "Mages think this" or "Mage feel that" because as with real life there is alway a section of that group going 'pump the brakes you don't speak for me'. Sure, the mageborn come in very different varieties, but they don't have the luxury to decide how important it is for them: they require training that takes up a significant portion of their time, or they'll be demon food before long. Thus, being mageborn is something you simply can't ignore, no matter how much you want to. The training, the learning of emotional awarenes, the contact with the spirit world, those are elements all mageborn have in common (those who survive, anyway), no matter if they'll end up slinging fireballs at darkspawn, entertaining children with illusory images or not using their magic at all. No matter if you're raised to fear the spirit world or not, you learn to deal with it. I'm not speaking of a genetic identiy. As long as mageborn can mate with non-mageborn, they're the same species, and I think - I recall this being mentioned somewhere - that magic ability is not a digital trait. In most people it's simply too weak for useful abilities, or for being attractive to demons. Nonetheless, the requirements that come from, and after, being mageborn, those may be conducive to a common identity. You may disagree about how to deal with spirits like Vivienne and Solas do, but you know what you're speaking about in a way no non-mageborn can understand. You may be a recluse or a party animal, but if you've stayed sane you know you have to maintain a self-awareness uncommon in a non-mageborn. And so on. The question is: will these common elements make it highly likely that the mageborn perceive themselves as "not like other people" in almost any conceivable environment? What if the stigma was gone? What would happen between a mage from Tevinter and one from Ferelden? Different associations and ideologies notwithstanding, would they recognize a common element, and see it as strong enough that it creates some kind of bond? This may sound improbable, but consider that no matter their disagreements, they know what they're talking about when they debate "mage stuff". The Tevinter may speak of it with contempt and the Fereldan with regret, but they'll both recognize things they can never share meaningfully with a non-mageborn. They're both set apart in the same way. This is, of course, highly hypothetical. We don't have this kind of difference IRL, so we have no yardstick to estimate the outcome. We tend to say "we're all human in the end", but that, while true IRL, may not apply the same way in a world where some people have an innate magical aptitude. On the other hand, it may still very much apply, and the result is simply a similar kind of class distinction we accept IRL as part of everyday life. IRL, we make attempts to prevent that the affluent buy their way to monopolizing political power, sometimes successfully, all too often not. In Thedas, they make attempts to prevent that the mageborn magic their way to power, with more or less success, but in both cases, a class distinction very much exists. In Tevinter, parents dream of their children being mageborn much the same as parents IRL dream of their children becoming rich what they never managed, and in both cases, the chances, while existing, are infinitesimally small. So, while I consider integration possible, some kind of stratification is most likely inevitable. Magic may not be as problematic as money with regard to the chances of monopolizing political power, but it likely has a bigger effect in everyday life.
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