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Post by themikefest on Aug 3, 2016 0:54:27 GMT
I found the dlc's better than the main game. For the time Bioware had to make the game, I believe about 17 months, they did a good job with what they did. My biggest gripe was the repetitive scenery. I will say that Meredith is my favorite character in the game. But that's more of her VA, Jean Gilpin, than anything, Very strong voice. I will say its best playing as sarcastic femHawke
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Post by Masque on Aug 3, 2016 9:28:12 GMT
Sarcastic Hawke was the best.
"So.. care to explain your particular brand of crazy?"
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Post by crusty on Aug 3, 2016 10:57:51 GMT
Watch me be controversial.
To answer the thread title, no, it wouldn't have. It certainly would've been a much better game. But it wouldn't have been the best anything. The gulf between gameplay and narrative is too great, and cannot be bridged not because of budget, but because of the flawed way BioWare appropriates storytelling. The formula they use can work if you ignore the gameplay and focus on the "story" (which is how most people enjoy BioWare games to begin with, KotOR is a fairly good example), but Dragon Age 2 is an exception to that.
“Yeah. The themes that were going on in Dragon Age II weren’t about heroism, necessarily. That wasn’t a theme. It was about freedom versus security, which I thought was a good, timely issue. How much freedom do you let people have versus how much security is necessary for people? Like the mages versus templars. That had more application than just that, that struggle between the need to have a secure society versus the struggle for individual freedom.” - David Gaider
Even if we put aside BioWare's dishonesty in that Dragon Age 2 was marketed as a Rise To Power, or that this specific theme was already covered in depth in Dragon Age: Origins (Circle of Mages subplot, Dwarven subplot, etc), you could go further than Gaider and say that a central theme of Dragon Age 2 was powerlessness. Or rather, how the unpredictability of chaos renders everyone powerless, regardless of supposed authority. The problem is that at every step, this theme is rebuffed and mocked by the game design and gameplay. Hawke is immensely powerful, and (s)he dispatches dozens of human enemies that come in waves, their bodies disintegrating in fantastical explosions as Hawke backflips, darts and teleports around the battlefield with FF style swords swung effortlessly with one hand. Yet despite that, the game forces the player to stand idly by as a pair of noticeably beatable enemies, confront your sibling alone. The game is filled with these contrived moments of powerlessness that not only denies the player agency, but does so in a way that insults the player's intelligence. The game is almost bipolar between telling the player that they are the most powerful badass ever to exist, and a helpless loser depending on what you're currently doing. Your character is depicted as strong, proactive, intelligent, capable of solving everyone's problems (and finding their dirty underwear to boot). Until story content comes along where you are forced to stand slack jawed and let events that you easily have the power and intelligence to foresee or prevent, happen. The end result is that you don't portray powerlessness as a theme, you portray incompetence. Incompetence of the character, and by proxy, the incompetence of the developers who botched the execution of their writing and design so badly since their intent was not to have Hawke look like a bumbling fool.
That unwholesome dissonance between what you're told through story cutscenes and what you do in gameplay is central to why the story of Dragon Age 2 was badly received. That's not even to speak of it's laziness in other areas, just of why it's narrative fails.
So in order to avoid that kind of pitfall in future, you stick with ideas that are already known to work. Which is what we saw with Dragon Age: Inquisition and (despite the terrible ending arc caused by a lack of foresight/planning) Mass Effect 3.
However, by refusing to treat gameplay and narrative design as two complimentary elements, BioWare has ensured that the types of narratives they will write, and characters they write, will forever be limited in scope. They will never write compelling roleplaying experiences that leverages the best of gameplay, level design, character building ''and'' script now that their competitive advantages are null and voice. That doesn't necessarily mean they make bad games, or that one can't love a BioWare game, but a BioWare game will no longer be universally accepted as exceptional unless they change how they look at designing and writing their games.
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Post by tehnekomata on Aug 3, 2016 11:03:10 GMT
(despite the terrible ending arc caused by a lack of foresight/planning) Mass Effect 3. If it wasn't enough that you think that plot twists that aren't advertised is bad storytelling (which is downright idiotic), the fact that you endorse the delusional bullshit whining about ME3's endings demonstrates how little anyone should care about your opinions on storytelling. No one cares how much you're still crying over games not being exactly how you wanted.
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Post by crusty on Aug 3, 2016 11:13:46 GMT
It's not crying, just stating my opinion on the thread topic.
I'm not discussing plot twists (events), but rather what they presented to the audience. If something is advertised as a comedy family romp and ends up being an adrenaline filled horror movie, then that is dishonest advertising. It highlights the discord between BioWare's writers and their marketing department, as well as the dishonesty of the latter. It has nothing to do with my critique of BioWare's storytelling, which is based on the idea of Gameplay/Story Segregation. Dragon Age 2's gameplay directly contradicts the narrative themes being presented to the point where it is impossible to suspend disbelief outside of completely ignoring the gameplay altogether. No amount of budget would've fixed this issue, as it is inherent to how BioWare makes games. They just happened to choose gameplay and narrative styles that do not work together.
You're free to disagree with what I've posted obviously, I just don't understand why you're being triggered and taking personal shots at me for expressing those opinions.
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Post by tehnekomata on Aug 3, 2016 11:16:34 GMT
It's not crying, just stating my opinion on the thread topic. I'm not discussing plot twists (events), but rather what they presented to the audience. If something is advertised as a comedy family romp and ends up being an adrenaline filled horror movie, then that is dishonest advertising. It highlights the discord between BioWare's writers and their marketing department, as well as the dishonesty of the latter. It has nothing to do with my critique of BioWare's story telling, which is based on the idea of Gameplay/Story Segregation. You're free to disagree with what I've posted obviously, I just don't understand why you're being triggered and taking personal shots at me for expressing those opinions. Just because Hawke's rise to power doesn't come with complications doesn't mean there is no "rise to power" plot in the game. This is laughably inept critique, and really is nothing more than "it wasn't exactly what I thought it would be, therefore that's bad writing". But of course, it's not because you have no clue what you're talking about and just didn't get exactly what you wanted, it's that the marketing lied. Totally.
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Post by crusty on Aug 3, 2016 11:23:03 GMT
Why do you focus on this idea of advterising? The very beginning of that passage says "even if we put aside", as in, that particular point is completely incidental to my main point and argument on the matter. Which is something you've not tackled at all, you've instead taken to making personal cheapshots at me instead. Which baffles me. Why are you so triggered by an opinion? Feel free to disagree, but why so personal about it?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2016 12:03:31 GMT
(despite the terrible ending arc caused by a lack of foresight/planning) Mass Effect 3. If it wasn't enough that you think that plot twists that aren't advertised is bad storytelling (which is downright idiotic), the fact that you endorse the delusional bullshit whining about ME3's endings demonstrates how little anyone should care about your opinions on storytelling. No one cares how much you're still crying over games not being exactly how you wanted. mama mia dats a spicy memerino
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Aug 3, 2016 13:46:21 GMT
DA2 having a bigger budget would just allow biower to add in more stupid shit. Quantity =/= quality.
I mean, having a shitty budget didn't make them say "fuck it" and make every single fucking romance option a bisexual, that's just their shitty writing.
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Post by tehnekomata on Aug 3, 2016 13:48:24 GMT
DA2 having a bigger budget would just allow biower to add in more stupid shit. Quantity =/= quality. I mean, having a shitty budget didn't make them say "fuck it" and make every single fucking romance option a bisexual, that's just their shitty writing. Yes, how dare they have bisexual people exist. If only games you played only had straight people in them... :
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Aug 3, 2016 13:52:12 GMT
Excellent virtue signal there bud.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2016 15:34:31 GMT
DA2 having a bigger budget would just allow biower to add in more stupid shit. Quantity =/= quality. I mean, having a shitty budget didn't make them say "fuck it" and make every single fucking romance option a bisexual, that's just their shitty writing. Yes, how dare they have bisexual people exist. If only games you played only had straight people in them... : Is there any particular reason you treat every person you respond to like they were the one to personally execute your puppy while spitting on your dreams?
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 3, 2016 15:48:52 GMT
Meh. Despite DA2's shortcomings i found the game to be more enjoyable than all the last few main Final Fantasy titles combined.
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Post by tehnekomata on Aug 3, 2016 15:51:31 GMT
Meh. Despite DA2's shortcomings i found the game to be more enjoyable than all the last few main Final Fantasy titles combined. How cute. Do you harass Final Fantasy fans all the time, or is your life more devoted to making BioWare fandoms hell?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2016 15:54:24 GMT
Meh. Despite DA2's shortcomings i found the game to be more enjoyable than all the last few main Final Fantasy titles combined. How cute. Do you harass Final Fantasy fans all the time, or is your life more devoted to making BioWare fandoms hell? "I didn't like the last few Final Fantasy titles" "Gawd why don't you just personally execute all the Final Fantasy fans?!?! DAMN HATERS!" Why are you the saltiest person alive?
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Aug 3, 2016 15:55:28 GMT
holy fuck is this a meme
I feel as though we're on the receiving end of a very well performed """troll""" as it were.
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Post by kino on Aug 3, 2016 15:57:58 GMT
I don't know if DA2 would have been better than DAO because of the storytelling and gameplay mechanic differences. Still, to me, it was just as good. I had just as much fun playing it and enjoyed the story just as much.
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Post by crusty on Aug 3, 2016 16:00:36 GMT
Meh. Despite DA2's shortcomings i found the game to be more enjoyable than all the last few main Final Fantasy titles combined. How cute. Do you harass Final Fantasy fans all the time, or is your life more devoted to making BioWare fandoms hell? "I didn't find the latest FF games all that enjoyable compared to DA 2" "Harassment" Haha. I won't lie, that was a really amusing back and forth.
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Aug 3, 2016 16:01:44 GMT
Oh hell, I misread the title of this thread and thought it was comparing DA2 to DA:I not DA:O
Yeah, no way in fucking hell DA2 could ever be better than DA:O. Hell, I can't even think of a game that has come out since DA:O that's better than it in its little niche (story-driven RPG).
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Post by crusty on Aug 3, 2016 16:03:56 GMT
Oh hell, I misread the title of this thread and thought it was comparing DA2 to DA:I not DA:O Yeah, no way in fucking hell DA2 could ever be better than DA:O. Hell, I can't even think of a game that has come out since DA:O that's better than it in its little niche (story-driven RPG). Shadowrun: Dragonfall and Shadowrun: Hong Kong. They aren't perfect games, but they essentially accomplish what Dragon Age 2 wanted to be (personal story arc, etc) with 1/20th the budget minus the story telling issues as far as gameplay/story segregation goes. Although DA:O has some of the same issues with regards to gameplay/story segregation, it wasn't as bad because the divide did not speak directly to the narrative themes at play. It was pretty bitchin' overall. Very solid game.
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 3, 2016 16:16:53 GMT
Meh. Despite DA2's shortcomings i found the game to be more enjoyable than all the last few main Final Fantasy titles combined. How cute. Do you harass Final Fantasy fans all the time, or is your life more devoted to making BioWare fandoms hell? Speaking to a Final Fantasy fan here, and it's silly to imply that you're the BioWare fandom in of itself. This was a nice thread until you injected unwanted toxicity into it. Leave that back on The BioWare Forum.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 3, 2016 16:19:48 GMT
Welp, I loved it and I make no secret of that. This despite the fact that I played DAO first. And before Dragon Age came along, I mostly stuck to older RPGs like BG, NWN, Planescape... Hawke's story felt intimate - they were, in the end, just an ordinary person trying to make it in a shitty city. I enjoy playing up the Failure Hero aspect, the idea that sometimes trying your best and having good intentions isn't enough. You can't save everyone (whether from themselves or other people). I felt as close to Hawke's family as my Brosca did to Rica or my Tabris did to Shianni and cried like a weenie when bad things happened to them, because "I" was supposed to protect them and I failed. Narratively, I love it. I thought antagonists like the Arishok, Meredith, Orsino, Petrice, etc. were all well done, minus the Harvester bit. And with the exception of Sebastian, I thought every romance option was really well done - they each had about the same amount of content, interesting friendship/rivalry paths, etc. Plus Nick Boulton's snarky Hawke was A++. Never gonna be fond of the recycled environments and enemy spam, however. And I wouldn't want to go back to a human-only protagonist.
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 3, 2016 16:25:56 GMT
Welp, I loved it and I make no secret of that. This despite the fact that I played DAO first. And before Dragon Age came along, I mostly stuck to older RPGs like BG, NWN, Planescape... Hawke's story felt intimate - they were, in the end, just an ordinary person trying to make it in a shitty city. I enjoy playing up the Failure Hero aspect, the idea that sometimes trying your best and having good intentions isn't enough. You can't save everyone (whether from themselves or other people). I felt as close to Hawke's family as my Brosca did to Rica or my Tabris did to Shianni and cried like a weenie when bad things happened to them, because "I" was supposed to protect them and I failed. Narratively, I love it. I thought antagonists like the Arishok, Meredith, Orsino, Petrice, etc. were all well done, minus the Harvester bit. And with the exception of Sebastian, I thought every romance option was really well done - they each had about the same amount of content, interesting friendship/rivalry paths, etc. Plus Nick Boulton's snarky Hawke was A++. Never gonna be fond of the recycled environments and enemy spam, however. And I wouldn't want to go back to a human-only protagonist. Don't you forget about the AI tactics customisation system. In all of the franchise it was the one feature that was objectively superior to that of it's predecessor's, and is not purely subjective. Why DAI scrapped this i don't know.
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Post by Addictress on Aug 3, 2016 20:21:48 GMT
I liked the forced family deaths.
It's called character-building, and plot points.
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Post by Addictress on Aug 3, 2016 20:26:55 GMT
I may have come off a bit too negative. Make no mistake, I think the game had a huge potential. I actually very much like the idea of a smaller scale, personal story, where no continent / world / galaxy needs saving. I have no problems with the plot being limited to a single city. But for that to work, the city itself needs to be a character, so to say, the central character even - and Kirkwall was anything but that. Too small, too lacking in detail. Alas. See I thought the smallness and familiar environments actually helped give the city more character, not less.
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