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Post by Steelcan on Feb 8, 2017 1:13:28 GMT
Evanuris worshipers were likely not as capable of the horrendous acts of bloodletting as the evanuris themselves
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Post by cheeseandonion on Feb 8, 2017 12:20:02 GMT
We even have a mission where we can send Leliana to cut out a Bard's tongue for slandering us. O_O we do? I never read the war table missions, who knows how many people are missing body parts...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 8, 2017 12:35:54 GMT
I feel like it's oversimplifying to say that the Dalish were wrong about everything.
They were once immortal. Their gods existed, and were likely capable of everything the Dalish claim they were. Fen'Harel did seal their gods away.
I also don't see how the "three mages" rule is a retcon, since to the best of my knowledge we're given no reason to believe that every clan follows it now. In order for it to be a retcon it would need to override something we already knew, and I don't think we have evidence that it does.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 8, 2017 14:54:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 18:39:09 GMT
We even have a mission where we can send Leliana to cut out a Bard's tongue for slandering us. O_O we do? I never read the war table missions, who knows how many people are missing body parts... I'm guessing you also missed reading the mission where you can have Cullen's soldiers freak people out with the duchess's head. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Judgment:_Duchess_in_a_Box_Tour_9:41
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 8, 2017 20:15:42 GMT
He might not have gotten that one. I've done three complete playthroughs and only killed the Duchess once.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 8, 2017 20:29:14 GMT
The thing about the 3 mage rule is that it was originally introduced in DA2 concerning Merrill, almost to explain why she had a different accent from the rest of the clan. It turned out she came from another clan because the Sabrae didn't have any mage children of their own for Marethari to train up. So a clan that already had a Keeper, a First and a spare should anything happen to them, allowed Sabrae to adopt Merrill so they would not be without a mage in the future to be their Keeper. Merrill then says it is common practice for clans to do this so no clan is ever without a mage/Keeper. A clan only allows another to adopt one of their mages if they have more than 3, as they are then felt to have sufficient mages of their own to allow for any mishaps occurring. However, this doesn't mean they don't want their mages and if no other clan is lacking and the clan has more than 3 mages, they would likely be viewed as fortunate. Since they believe (correctly) that all their ancestors could once perform magic, it follows that they think that mages are closer to being what they once were and the more mages in a clan, the more they feel they are recovering their ancient culture.
There was also the other belief expressed in earlier games, that when they remember what it is to be true elves, their gods will return to them. This seemed somewhat contradictory to the belief that their gods were unable to return because Fen'Harel had entrapped them, so always struck me as a somewhat odd idea. Nevertheless, it is clear that if they feel their gods are not returning because, in Sera's words, they are not "elfy" enough, and an important feature of their ancestors was that they could do magic, then it follows that the more mages there are among the Dalish, the greater the likelihood that their gods will recognise them as "true elves".
In view of all the above, this is why the idea they would actually abandon mages in the wilderness, or kick them out and tell them to go and live among humans, because they had too many in the clan is absolutely absurd. This would literally be contradicting everything they believe and given their mind set, would actually be preventing the return of their gods. Considering that they also teach that their gods place so much value in family and solidarity with each other, abandoning children in the forest would actually make them appear less worthy to their gods and make it less likely that they would want to return.
It is because this idea seems so illogical in view of Dalish beliefs that I object to it so much. It contradicts their whole religion and culture as detailed in the previous 2 games. It cannot be simply explained away by clans growing apart and doing things differently because this is a fundamental part of their culture and belief system. Which is why I suggest that clans who do this cannot truly be called Dalish any more since they no longer adhere to an important aspect of their culture, namely loyalty and faith in family.
The only time a mage is asked to leave is when they deliberately violate Dalish taboos concerning certain forms of magic and as a consequence bring the clan into danger. This is why Merrill was banished for using blood magic and her fixation with the eluvian (which had already resulted in the death/loss of two clan members). However, it is clear that it would only have been temporary and she would have been welcomed back had she been willing to abandon her project with the eluvian and her reliance on blood magic. Then when the Keeper died as a consequence, the remaining members of the clan (if not dead) made the banishment permanent.
Yet, it is implied it is part of mainstream Dalish culture, because without a Dalish Inquisitor there to express anything different, this practice is allowed to pass unchallenged when detailed by Minaeve and later by Iron Bull. (Naturally Vivienne is not going to mention it to a non-Dalish Inquisitor)
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 9, 2017 4:30:00 GMT
We don't know the full context of the decision for Minaeve's clan to expel her. Its quite possible there were no nearby clans to send her to and that they could not afford the risk of having too many mages, of which not all will receive positions no matter what their beliefs on magic are.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 9, 2017 21:12:48 GMT
You still don't get it. They don't need official positions. They are just an integral part of the clan. In Zathrian's clan Layana says that she had to complete for the position of First with others in the clan. That is the only official position other than Keeper. It is like having First Enchanter (Keeper), their immediate deputy (Senior Enchanter) and then various classes of mages, some senior enchanters, some ordinary enchanters and some apprentices.
The idea that the Keeper is incapable of training up more than two mages at a time is also somewhat ridiculous. When Merrill arrived in the Sabrae clan as a child, she wouldn't be considered immediately capable of taking over the role of First. However, after a degree of training, she would be regarded as more responsible and thus if the clan had been fortunate enough to produce more mages of its own, she could have helped Marethari with their training. In the Circle it was Bethany, a newly qualified Enchanter, who was given the job of training young mages. You do not have to be a First Enchanter to be able to guide a young mage, simply be responsible enough and have sufficient knowledge to advise them on how to control their powers and avoid possession. The likelihood is that the clan would not have all their mages being born within a few years of one another but more likely at a considerable interval between them, given that Merrill said that magic was dying out among the clans. So by the time the next child was showing they had magic, the previous one would likely be old enough to help train them but would certainly be old enough to be given less supervision, whilst the Keeper or First concentrated on training the newest one.
Templars don't get involved in training mages, simply watching over them, specifically at their harrowing, which the Dalish do not have. If a mage becomes possessed then the clan would have to deal with it regardless of whether it was their Keeper or a child. Unlike the average peasant, I would imagine that every clan member would receive martial training from an early age, so would be better able to deal with any threat to their survival whether it be from nature or the Fade.
I just do not see the Dalish placing such store in having a mage in charge of the clan at all if it was seen as such a great risk to have mages among them in the first place. When you think about it, whether there is one mage or ten the risk is just the same. You only need one mage to be possessed for it to be a danger but it does not automatically follow that because one becomes possessed all the others will at the same time. (Despite what may have appeared to be the case in DA2, where spontaneous combustion into an abomination was ridiculously common). Remember also that their traditions regarding mages would have been established whilst they were still sedentary people in the Dales. So the means of coping with any possessed mages would have been worked out at the same time. Keepers were not the leaders of the community in the time of the Dales but merely the priesthood and lorekeepers, so in fact the Dalish have increased the importance of mages in the clans since they embarked on their nomadic existence, which makes even less sense if they are so afraid of them.
The story that Dalish of the Chargers was asked to leave because there were too many mages seemed even more unlikely. She was old enough to have vallaslin, so would have come into her powers many years before, so there would have been plenty of time to train her to control them before the latest mage came along. Thus there would be no point in asking her to leave. This is why I head canon that either Bull assumed that was the case, having heard the story elsewhere, or Dalish lied about it being because they had too many mages. Likely the Keeper told her to take a hike because she was dabbling in magic she shouldn't have or she stormed off herself because she wasn't chosen as First. She also had a very odd accent for a Dalish.
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 9, 2017 21:20:35 GMT
The idea that the Dalish would cling to their romanticized vision of magic in the face of what is a problem for survival rings hollow given that we know have examples of clans taking a more practical approach.
Perhaps the rule is to discourage too much competition between the mages since they might be tempted to resort to blood magic or other unsavory things in order to gain a leg up over their competition (as we see in the Dalish clan in the Exalted Plains)
And no one mage is not on par with ten, for the very simple reasons that one abomination is not as bad as two or three or however many. Sure there is no guarantee that just because one mage falls the others will as well but the risk is always elevated the more mages there are in one place.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 9, 2017 21:42:58 GMT
So why do other non-Chantry cultures (apart from the Qun) have no problem with mages being part of their community, with apparently no limit on the number of mages? The Rivaini are so attached to their wise women that even the Qun couldn't shift them and the Chantry was forced to tolerate them but the Templars do not control them, the Rivaini wise women merely agree to aid the Templars when required. Would this really have been the case if there was such a danger from mages becoming possessed and the community suffering as a result? Rivaini society is run by the eldest women, the most senior of which are the seers who freely practice magic. They even allow themselves to become possessed in order to receive wisdom from the inhabiting spirit. If this had had such dire consequences such traditions would surely have died out long ago.
If it was a matter of survival over a romanticized view of magic and mages were such a risk, the clans would not be led by a mage in the first place, particularly, as I point out above, since the Keepers did not in fact lead the community in the Dales. The fact is that the writers completely backtracked on their own lore with the Dalish for no apparent reason other than to counter the remark often made on the boards that the Dalish had no problem with controlling their mages without Templars or tranquil. So they had the Dalish culling the mages instead. No wonder magic is dying out among the Dalish if that were the case.
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 9, 2017 21:57:51 GMT
Because Rivain is a society dominated and ruled by mages and not an example of mage integration into society? Rivaini society also allows for the occasional abomination treating it as a natural disaster and not the preventable issue that it is. Without a closer examination of Rivaini society I'm not willing to say a whole lot, but it appears to me to be somewhat similar to both Tevinter and the Avvar where mages rule and use spirits freely. Undoubtedly there are drawbacks to such as system but we haven't gotten to see this society up close yet.
Why not be led by mages? It seems to be a fairly natural situation, it was that way in Tevinter before the coming of Andraste, Avvar augurs seem to have a great deal of importance in their societies, Rivaini seers dominate their society. Really the only checks there seem to be on mage rule are Andrastian and Qunari teachings.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 9, 2017 22:06:47 GMT
The idea that the Dalish would cling to their romanticized vision of magic in the face of what is a problem for survival rings hollow given that we know have examples of clans taking a more practical approach. Precisely, much like how we know that not all Dalish clans are isolationist or willing to resort to banditry, some Dalish clans may have adopted a more militant survivalist philosophy and chosen to enforce these rules to prevent unwanted Templar attention. Because of these stringent measures from certain clans, it has lead to the mistaken widespread belief elsewhere in Thedas that this is how all Dalish clans deal with unwanted mages, because their outcasts are the ones most typically brought to the Circle. Ex-Dalish mages within the Circle may come to regard this erroneous belief as being true. After all, the only source of comparison they would have would be other Dalish brought into the Circle, likely from other clans who enforce the same stringent rules. Much like how most of the knowledge on Qunari culture is based on speculation, hearsay and rumour (most of which Bull refutes as being "horseshit"), we don't know for certain that people aren't filtering knowledge on the Dalish through a similarly skewed lens.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 9, 2017 23:47:03 GMT
Even Vivienne - the First Enchanter - admits that her knowledge of Dalish magic and their practices is third-hand.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 10, 2017 0:19:24 GMT
Also, I found the one Dalish tribe that appears in full to be rather pleasant, open-minded people. Their camp is too small, but that's my only quibble. Yeah, it was a pleasant surprise that this Dalish clan was open-minded about the Inquisition, given the suspicion that's often thrown at the Inquisitor throughout the the game. The Dalish (along with Avvar in JoH) were probably the most cordial group we encountered, even willing to let one of their own join us once we proved our good intentions. The size of their camp bothered me a little as well, although they may have lost some of their people in the cross-fire of the Orlesian Civil War? Or they have other campsites dotted about the plains, because it's too risky to have them all centralised in one location with so many soldiers and demons roaming about? I thought they were traveling through and were forced to stop because the war tore up the earth, making the ground hazardous for their aravels. I got the impression that this was supposed to be a temporary thing and that they wanted to move on as quickly as possible (circumstances permitting). It wasn't like the typical case of a Dalish clan moving to a place and settling there for a while, before moving on to fresh hunting grounds.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 10, 2017 19:24:19 GMT
The reason given for the clan being there did seem rather strange. Before the civil war it is clear the area was one of numerous farmsteads and villages, so lots of potentially hostile humans with little cover for the clan. I can understand them coming there to trade but once they saw the state of things, why didn't they just retreat the way they came? At least some members of the clan had embarked on the expedition to the Emerald Graves but you would have thought it would have made more sense for the entire clan to go there instead of staying in a war zone. It really seemed odd that they placed the clan in the Exalted Plains when they could just as easily have put them in the Emerald Graves, which was far more the sort of forested landscape that we have come to associate with the Dalish.
However, it used to be said that the clans would follow the whims of the halla, letting them set their course for them. This always seemed something of a daft idea to me because of the possibility of the halla leading them into danger. Still, that would account for why the clan wound up in the Exalted Plains during a time of war and then felt unable to leave. It would also explain the significance of the Golden Halla that we had to round up. That would seem like the lead deer of the herd and the one that the others follow, so once they had that, potentially the clan would be able to depart. The fact that they didn't had more to do with game mechanics than actual real life logic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 11, 2017 11:16:03 GMT
Did anyone else feel that the explanation for the fall of the Dales was not good enough? In the past we had been given various possibilities for the breakdown in relations between the two nations. Now they seemed to have opted for the explanation that the Dalish didn't assist sufficiently during the 2nd Blight, plus a rather clichéd star crossed lovers story to explain the massacre at Red Crossing. We also had the oddity that Giselle insisted it was not a proper Exalted March because only Orlais took part. I really wanted to drag her out to the Exalted Plains and show her all the references to the holy war and Sister Amity's speeches because that sure looked like an Exalted March to me. Even the name of the area suggests as much.
Is it once again a case of ignoring their own lore books? WoT makes it clear that the Exalted March on the Dales was called by Divine Renata and definitely named as such, but only Orlais supplied any troops. This would suggest that the other humans nations didn't have as much of a grudge against the elves as the Chantry histories would have us believe or were that worried about the assault on the centre of their faith in Val Royeaux. Nevertheless, the fact that the other nations didn't choose to take part, didn't make it any less of an Exalted March.
Then there is the length of time of the engagement between the two nations. Initial skirmishes began in 2:5, some 10 years after the end of the 2nd Blight. Divine Hortensia had declared the Glory Age, predicting a grand rebirth of the world. No doubt this also included a renewed emphasis on spreading the Chant of Light. This would seem to tie in with the Dalish insistence that it was missionary activity and likely Templar intrusion as well, that was causing the bad feeling. No doubt Orlais also did feel a grudge over the alleged failure of the elves to assist in the Blight, although this is still something that is assumed rather than proven.
Red Crossing occurred in 2:9. I'm still not clear where exactly Red Crossing was meant to be in relation to the rest of the Dales or where the exact border delineated. Halamshiral is right up on the Imperial Highway. This would suggest that the Imperial Highway itself marked the border. Knowing exactly where the Dales ended would be useful in relation to the history of Montsimmard. You will recall that the elves were accused of watching and doing nothing when the city was sacked by the darkspawn. Did the extent of the elven territories stretch as far as there? Otherwise I have always claimed that if the elves were that much out of their own territory, they must have been on their way to help and arrived too late.
In 2:10 the elves captured Montsimmard, which was considered a major strategic settlement for Orlais. This would suggest that neither Lydes or Verchiel existed at that time or they would surely have been the first to be captured? So if Montsimmard was the nearest Orlesian city to the elven border, it would make sense that they would capture it first in order to secure their defences before embarking on their next manoeuvre which was to march on Val Royeaux itself. This is the part that I feel has not been properly explained. Clearly the elves were the aggressors here. They are not simply defending their borders, they have embarked on an all out assault on the capital city of their opponents, which also happens to be the seat of their religion. I am sure that the two are not unrelated. In fact if the Dalish account is to be believed, they were responding to the Chantry attempting to spread their religion in the Dales, quite possibly by aggressive means. It also ties in with the fact that as a result of this action the Divine called for a Holy War on the elves.
Now according to one of the codices, the reason the elves didn't succeed in conquering Val Royeaux at this time was that their main general was killed in the assault. Still what about the rest of the army? The elves were apparently strong enough that they resisted Orlais for the next 10 years and had considerable victories against them. It was only after Halamshiral was taken by Orlais in 9:20 that everything started to fall apart. So what went wrong? To get to Halmshiral the Orlesians would have to have crossed considerable territory. In Masked Empire, Celene has several days of overland march before getting there. So the elves must have erred badly in their strategy to allow this to happen.
What also seems odd that if the elves were capable of getting to the walls of Val Royeaux in 2:10 and then successfully defended over the next 10 years, that Orlais had the resources to do anything other than hold the line on their border, if they only had their own forces to call upon. Was Orlais not weakened by fighting the Blight? Would they have not lost just as many soldiers as the elves during the ten year engagement?
I was wondering if what made the difference was the respective numbers of mages on each side. Orlais would have been able to call upon the services of the Circle of Magi, which likely was boosted by mages from other parts of Thedas that came under Chantry jurisdiction, whereas the elves would only have such mages as had been born to them in the 250 years since the founding of the Dales and so likely far fewer as a result. Their degree of magical expertise might have been more limited as well. Also I wonder if it all came down to which side the dwarves came down on. We know the Chantry needed lyrium for their Templars to use as well as for the Circles and had the resources of the faithful to pay for it, so it seems likely that the dwarves would have regarded them as the better bet than the elves. So could it have all been down to who had access to lyrium to boost their magic?
This is why I feel that with the access to historical archives that the Inquisition had, plus Leliana's agents apparently able to get into practically anywhere they wanted, it was a pity that we didn't get bit more historical detail from at least the Orlesian point of view before departing for the north since I doubt we will be learn anything more on the subject in the future if we are going to Tevinter. Unless, of course, Tevinter was secretly aiding Orlais in order to bring down the elves.
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 13, 2017 3:09:36 GMT
I think the Exalted March on the Dales is pretty inconsistently done, and likely because of how slapped together DA lore can be. That said I do like talking about it and I'm gonna put down my inordinately detailed thoughts on this. I am legitimately interested in discussing this topic, so please don't dismiss my post as trolling or simply elf bashing. As near as I can tell the break down of events should look something like this 1. The elves are enslaved in Tevinter 2. The elves rise up in support of Andraste and following the conversion of the Imperium, they arrive in the Dales and Halamshiral 3. Drakon founds the Empire of Orlais and the Chantry as we recognize it 4. Drakon dispatches his friend Inquisitor Ameridan to the Frostbacks during the Second Blight, Ameridan notes Dalish hostility to Drakon 5. The Second Blight comes to Orlais and Montsimmard is sacked by Darkspawn with the Dalish army supposedly looking on and not helping 6. The Second Blight ends with the elves having been seen as not contributing 7. Tensions between Orlais and the Dales run high possibly involving missionaries, from Orlais and Dalish/Orlesian skirmishes along the border 8. Red Crossing is destroyed and some of its population killed by Elven Emerald Knights 9. An unclear amount of time passes but likely not much, and the Elves invade Orlais proper with an army advancing all the way to Val Royeaux 10. Val Royeaux is under threat and the Divine calls for an Exalted March either before or after the city falls, but only Orlais contributes 11. The Elven advance is halted and turned back with the Orlesians advancing past their own borders into Dalish land 12. Halamshiral falls to the Orlesians 13. The remaining elves either surrender and convert to Andrastianism or flee and form the Dalish clans 14. The kingdom of the Dales ceases to exist and becomes absorbed by the Orlesian Empire Now there are a lot of issues trying to examine this conflict through the lens of what would make sense practically. It sounds that the Orlesian army, based on its defeats handed to them by the elves and the fall of Val Royeaux itself, were either woefully unprepared for war with the elves or grossly overestimated their own strength at the outbreak of hostilities. Given that the Orlesians were able to turn the war around and wholly defeat the Dales I'm inclined to say that they were unprepared for hostilities and did not lose large amounts of troops in the opening stages of the war (this will become more important later). Now we need to look at a map of the area. We can see that Halamshiral, presumably the area of greatest wealth and population density among the elves is along the Imperial Highway, same as Val Royeaux and other important cities. So now a proposed location for Red Crossing, it cannot be further behind Monstimmard as it would make no sense for an elven party to have gone past such a large city and been able to escape detection, we also know it lies either on or near the border between the two kingdoms. Now we don't know the exact location of the border, but since there's no major geographical features between Monstimmard and Halamshiral there's no "natural" border, but I think we can assume that the border was between what is now Lydes and Monstimmard. We can also assume that Montsimmard is near the border as the elves would not have been able to muster troops and arrive there in any sort of reasonable time frame if it was too far back from the border so I think we can narrow it to between Monstimmard and Verchiel. Given the name Red Crossing I think its ok to assume that there is some sort of crossing, a bridge or something, and this puts it likely between Lake Celestine and the Waking Sea. If we assume this the invasion plan itself is probably pretty simple, the elven army moves along the Imperial highway through the heartlands and towards Val Royeaux following the events of Red Crossing. Without more information on the area its impossible to guess where this army came from, whether it was raised around Halamshiral and sent out or if there was an existing army in the area. Given the advance through Orlais, the invasion began presumably between 2:9 and 2:10, the events of Red Crossing and the calling of the Exalted March. We don't know what time of year the war began, but presumably not in winter given the difficulties of waging war in the winter. So we can assume an invasion beginning at the beginning of spring or later. This gives them about a year to make it all the way through the heartlands and to Val Royeaux. So either the Orlesian military was utterly crushed at the opening of the war and was unable to halt the elven advance because of it, unlikely given the war's eventual outcome, or the majority of the Orlesian military was able to avoid destruction. Val Royeaux itself is sacked in 2:14 so we can assume a long siege lasting for some years. Now what I think might have happened, was that following the invasion by the elves the Orlesian military did not lose large amounts of soldiers or material to the invading elves but did lose large amounts of land to the invaders. The Orlesian heartlands were probably not conquered entirely and neither were the regions above Val Royeaux. In these areas the Orlesians were able to carry on the war effort and prevent the elves from conquering many parts of the country. Following the call of the Exalted March the Orlesians would likely have been bolstered by the Templars and Mages who were likely the reinforcements needed to retake Val Royeaux and fight the elves back across the border. What I cannot figure out is why, following Chantry forces reinforcing the Orlesians, and the loss of presumably a very large force of soldiers in Val Royeaux, the elves were still able to hold on for several years but only then go onto lose the entire war. There's no mention of a ceasefire or a temporary truce during the war, so I'm ruling that out. So what I'm guessing is that following the recapture of Val Royeaux the war became a stalemate for a number of years until the Orlesian/Chantry forces were able to break the stalemate in a decisive defeat for the elves that ended their ability to wage war against the Orlesians. OR the Orlesians and Chantry forces were able to sustain a war of attrition against the elves that dragged on for several years but not enough to drive the elves to surrender, or perhaps they were unwilling to entertain such a notion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 13, 2017 20:18:02 GMT
You analysis makes a lot of sense. From the timeline information it would seem that taking Halamshiral was the turning point in the war and this occurred despite "considerable elven victories". Looking at the map, you can see what appears to be the fractured remains of the Imperial Highway that used to connect the northern coast, just east of Val Royeaux with the southern coast of the Waking Sea, just north of what is now Lydes. I wonder if it was by using this in some way that allowed the Orlesian army to get behind elven lines and cut off the main bulk of the army from the political and religious leadership in Halamshiral. When they attacked the city, the leadership fled to save themselves and this left the ordinary populace at the mercy of the army, so they had no choice but to surrender. Then the Orlesian forces carried on to confront the main elven army on the Exalted Plains.
Whilst I have been an active defender of the Dalish since playing DAI, it always struck me as somewhat suspicious that the Dalish claimed to be descended from the noble houses of the Dales. I felt it odd that such a class hierarchy would have established itself so quickly but if true, then it would seem the ruling class of the nation had escaped, leaving the commoners to be rounded up and placed in the alienages. Apparently the priesthood also escaped, since they became the Keepers. So the likely scenario is that the "nobility" likely also supplied many of the military leaders, who did make the last stand and refused to surrender. Meanwhile the priesthood made good their escape with the families of the nobility and these, together with the servants of the households, formed the basis of the Dalish. Which is why they regarded themselves as the trustees of elven lore on behalf of the other elves.
It would also explain why the city elves seemed to believe that the Dalish were out there working on their behalf to ultimately restore their homeland (Briala did at least have such a notion but the Dalish storyteller in DAO also seemed to view it that way).
What I still don't understand is why the leadership in the Dales went so far as to embark on all out war with Orlais in the first place. Their forces would seem to have been strong enough to have withstood Orlesian incursions across their borders but instead they opted for the much more risky endeavour of actually trying to conquer Orlais. What were they hoping to achieve? As you suggest, Orlais seems to have been caught by surprise if the elves were able to get as far as Val Royeaux virtually unchallenged, so it seems unlikely that Orlais had actually been planning a military campaign themselves. In fact given what was happening in the Freemarches at that time with Fyruss and Tevinter, it is likely that Orlais would have been far more concerned with their northern borders, which is likely where the majority of their army was located when the elves attacked. So it was clearly an opportunistic move on the part of the elves but still an inexplicably risky one.
With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that if the elves had left well alone, Orlais and the Chantry would have been tied up dealing with Fyruss and Tevinter for the best part of the remainder of the Glory Age and then in 3:10 Towers the 3rd Blight began. After the 3rd Blight finished the Orlais once again got embroiled in war with Nevarra as it pushed for independence and then the Chantry called Exalted Marches against Tevitner. Then came the 4th Blight. Then the Qunari. So if the elves had just sat tight and defended their borders, instead of starting a major war with Orlais, the Dales would probably still be there today.
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 13, 2017 21:10:46 GMT
Presumably the elves believed they could win the war is why they attacked. My guess is that they were hoping a quick attack and rapid advance through Orlais would prevent the Orlesians from being able to mount an effective counter attack, maybe something like the Schlieffen Plan designed to deliver a knock out blow quickly and prevent a long and costly war of attrition that the elves knew they could not win. Or perhaps they believed that their own forces were enough to utterly defeat Orlais despite the disadvantage in manpower they seem to have had.
As for why they launched the war when they did, Orlais was still weakened from the Blight I imagine (though if they were still able to wholly defeat the elves I question just how weakened they were).
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Post by vit246 on Mar 14, 2017 22:45:25 GMT
Ah yes, the Dalish. 1) I always thought it was weird that players were so hung up over how the Dalish introduced themselves to their Warden and Hawke Protagonist with initial hostility. After all the Protagonists are strangers. The Dalish don't know them or their intentions, so they err on the side of caution and strength display. Even if the Warden was a City Elf, they still don't know that City Elf. For all they know, that City Elf could be someone like Devera, a Tevinter City Elf so race-traitorous she couldn't care less about kinship and would happily kill and enslave them for her and her masters' benefit. Each day for the Dalish is a matter of survival and they cannot afford to let down their guard out of politeness and niceties for strangers. And besides, they start warming up to you once you start doing shit for them. 2) The 3-mage rule. It doesn't make logical sense. It goes against their general character. It is so obviously designed (poorly) to shut up people who kept citing the Dalish as an example on how to treat mages successfully VS the Chantry/Templar way. Its one more black mark to rail against them for. Minaeve is such an obvious mouthpiece. 3) The Dalish being "wrong about everything". That is such a broad generalization I could cast a fish net over the Pacific Ocean. Click here. grandenchanterfiona.tumblr.com/post/145460993423/the-dalish-dont-know-anything4) Sera. She's got some serious internal racism and self-hatred. She hates BOTH City Elves and Dalish, not just Dalish. And she hates the giant tree City Elves pray to because its too elfy for her. Did we ever get the proper full context of her interactions with the Dalish? Its too easy to presume the Dalish were the "arseholes" and Sera was a pure victim since the story on that is vague and we have only her side of the story. Maybe they tried to encourage the positives of being "elfy" to her and she interpreted it as condescending compassion or something. 5) Solas. Again, just like Sera, I don't think we have the proper full context of his interactions with the Dalish and we have only his side of the story. Look at it from the Dalish POV. This bald Elf who seems to be an apostate circle mage comes up to them and claims he has authentic Elven knowledge from walking the Fade, which only he can do and only he can substantiate. He than proceeds to tear the Dalish down for being "wrong about everything" and belittling their efforts to preserve knowledge and mocking their Vallaslin as slave marks. Disregarding the cultural and spiritual importance of their Vallaslin and their old ways and the positivity the Dalish try to derive from them. The Dalish never claimed to be "arbitrators" of what is elfy and what is not. They know they don't know everything. Its why they go around in ruins looking for knowledge. 6) Vivienne. Please.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Mar 16, 2017 20:32:59 GMT
I dunno, the Dalish having the three mage rule thing while also saying they love magic made sense to me in the same way the Chantry has such opulence and yet preaches charity and humility.
Their hypocrites whose faith and actions contradict. Simple as that.
Every religion and culture IRL has this problem to some extent so I wasn't surprised by it existing in Thedas.
Sera, Solas, Vivienne and even Cassandra being bigoted towards the Dalish to varying levels makes sense for their characters. Sera's been rejected by the human nobility, been rejected by the Dalish, was possibly rejected by City Elf parents, and has therefore decided to ignore all those facets of her identity and define herself as vaguely as possible as just a normal poor person divorced from any notion of culture or race. In that way she actually does live up to her initial character theme as a Marxist Robin Hood. Old school Marxists had a problem dealing with race or sex and just tried to reduce everything to class struggle in an attempt to bring various oppressed people together under one ideology, ignoring their unique oppressions.
Solas is an elitist traditionalist who can't help but look at the Dalish's efforts to reclaim their culture with barely concealed scorn. As much as I like his character the fact is he's pretty much "My way or the highway" and for all his talk of freedom and rebellion he's gonna enforce his will on a world that doesn't fit his own desires or view on how things should be.
Vivienne is just being manipulative and political. Any ideology or way of doing things that's contrary to the Circle's view of magic is seen as a threat to that system and must be ridiculed or outright destroyed to protect it. Just look at how she reacts to College of Enchanters.
And Cassandra, well, Cassandra for all her positive aspects and claims about desiring change is fundamentally a moderate who just wants to fix the current crisis and obviously awful problems with the Chantry. The Dalish gods being accepted as something legitimate and separate from the Maker completely destroys the monotheistic foundations of her religion and so she says stuff like "Why can't you add one more god to your beliefs Lavellan?" or outright pulling a Sera saying that all the evidence in the Temple of Mythal MUST be false bullcrap.
So, yeah, while it does kind of suck that Lavellan doesn't get much support about their faith in Inquisition I can't claim its unrealistic, retcons the lore or is nonsensically spiteful. It's character-driven and is taking the story in an interesting direction in my mind.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 16, 2017 21:41:37 GMT
I wouldn't expect Lavellan to get much support for their culture from characters in game since they aren't Dalish. I think what most of us mind is that Lavellan is not allowed to defend their culture better. Also, the writers are clearly aware that at times they have contradicted previously stated lore about Dalish culture because of the repeated insistence that "every clan is different". So if you disagree with what someone states about the Dalish, the response you are allowed to make is that "my clan don't do that" but are then informed that this is just because the clans have grown apart over the years.
So you have this apparent contradiction in that the Dalish are meant to have a culture that they are not only trying to maintain but also improve upon, by faithfully handing down what they do know and passing on (at the 10 year gathering of the clans) any new lore they do discover, because the Dalish feel they are the last custodians of elven civilisation; yet apparently the clans do not take this duty seriously and no two clans can be said to be typically Dalish. Whereas I would have thought that there would be a core group of Dalish who are pretty much consistent with one another and these are the ones who would take the trouble to attend the Arlathven. So they are what I would term "true Dalish". Then you have the others, like the ones who have resorted to banditry, who are likely not that bothered about maintaining their ancient traditions and probably don't worry too much about turning up at the Arlathven either.
Of course the clans do have different attitudes towards how they regard their culture and in their interaction with the other races. Even back in DAO it was hinted that Sabrae clan was considered more liberal in its attitudes towards other cultures by some of the more conservative clans and former Keeper Mahariel had been condemned for taking the lead on being more open to outside ideas. Then WoT2 says that Gisharel of Ralaferin Clan, oft quoted in codices on Dalish lore, was condemned at the Arlathven by more isolationist Dalish for sharing Dalish lore and culture with human scholars. This though is more about attitudes which would have no precedent in the ancient lore, apart from the idea that interaction with humans in the past seemed to have an adverse affect on the behaviour of the elves who did so, even without the lore on the Quickening.
The attitude to mages though is something far more fundamental. As I state above, this would have been established in the time of the Dales. It is an essential part of Dalish lore that they believed all their ancestors were gifted with magic and thus to be a mage is to be closer to what they once were and the more they "remember" of what it is to be a true elf, the greater the likelihood of restoring their past glory. In view of this, it is clear that every time a Dalish child manifest magical ability, it would be a cause for rejoicing among the clan. Every child in the clan would be precious but a mage child doubly so. That is why it is so illogical that they would cast out any mage from the clan, let alone a child newly come into their powers, just because they have exceeded an arbitrary number.
This is not about hypocrisy, nor is it simply about religion or culture. This is about what the Dalish believe makes you an elf and in introducing this new rule, the writers are suggesting that the Dalish are constantly rejecting the members of their clans that most embody what they believe their ancient ancestors were. IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Nor is there any justification in it from the survival point of view (as Vivienne suggests) since both Rivain and the Avvar, to give just two examples, have survived down through the years with mages living openly in their society and with no apparent restriction on numbers.
As for Sera's attitude towards the Dalish, or in fact towards any elven culture whether Ancient, City or Dalish, I would have liked some inkling as to why she has this prejudice towards everything "elfy". It would make sense if she had had an experience like that of Briala in Masked Empire but to be honest, so far as the Dalish are concerned, it is difficult to see when she had the opportunity to encounter them. She allegedly spent all of her early years in Denerim and then transferred to Val Royeaux after joining the Jennies. So presumably any knowledge she has about the Dalish is based off hearsay. She seems to resent the City elf culture with respect to the Vhenadahl tree, although she would seem to have left the alienage behind at a very young age. Did her parents abandon her? Did her parents die and the other elves fail to help her? Did they reject her in some other way? It seems strange that someone who places such emphasis on the "little people" sticking together, should have so comprehensively have turned against the solidarity of the alienage elves, which we were told in DAO was the result of the hostility of the outside world towards them. On the face of it Sera seems to have adopted the attitude of the majority of humans and in particular human nobility towards the city elves and yet seemingly placing the blame on them. I wish the reason for her attitude had been better explained.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 16, 2017 22:20:37 GMT
As far as I can tell, Sera's rejection of anything "elfy" with regard to herself is basically a rejection of the way other people can perceive her. She is an elf, but she doesn't want to be thought of as an elf, who does elfy things, simply because people see that she is an elf.
In a way, it's sort of like the scene from DA2 when you can go ask Thrask about Feynriel. If either Merrill or Fenris are in the party, he makes an assumption based solely on the fact that they are elves, and assumes that they knew him during their time in the alienage. Sera would be ENRAGED at such an occurrence.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Mar 16, 2017 23:19:47 GMT
^^ This and I think Sera just has a distain of the fact that the city elves solidarity is well, just about city elves and their struggles. Her championing of the "little people" is a vague definition on purpose, I think. By focusing solely on the abuses of the powerful vs a generic oppressed group rather than humans vs elves Sera thinks she can escape the stigma of being an elf and probably thinks that this is the best way to deal with racism against elves in general. The nobility represents a group that poor humans, Dalish and City Elves can hate and fight against together, right, so why not focus that kind of solidarity is her thinking.
Essentially, if Sera was living in the modern US she'd probably be an ardent Bernie Sanders supporter and Socialist that thinks that Black Lives Matter is being exclusionary by just focusing on black issues.
gervaise21,
Yeah, at very at least Dalish Inquisitors (and all the races, really) needed more opportunities to at least state that things in their clan are different or at the very Bioware needs to firmly establish that the Dalish are not a monoculture by any means and is very much divided on certain ideas on what is elven identity.
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