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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 12, 2018 6:28:33 GMT
On a different note, I've been wondering if Hawke is Andrastian by default or if that is left open to interpretation. I'd like to play an atheist. There are auto-dialogue remarks of the "By the Maker!" type, but IMO that's the same as anyone saying, "Oh my god," which even some atheists do. From what I noticed on my recent play, here aren't any options to explicitly refute belief or faith, but I didn't feel it was forced on me, either. But that's just me. Someone else may feel differently.
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 13, 2018 20:17:19 GMT
On a different note, I've been wondering if Hawke is Andrastian by default or if that is left open to interpretation. I'd like to play an atheist. There are auto-dialogue remarks of the "By the Maker!" type, but IMO that's the same as anyone saying, "Oh my god," which even some atheists do. From what I noticed on my recent play, here aren't any options to explicitly refute belief or faith, but I didn't feel it was forced on me, either. But that's just me. Someone else may feel differently. I personally go down with being religious from each protagonist
my Warden Felicia Cousland is a devout Andrastian (hence she'd never defile the Ashes of Andraste), and believes firmly that the Maker put her on her path for a reason (though she still cursed his name the night her family died), though as the game goes on she starts to doubt her religion as well
my Champion Sinéad Hawke is...doubting her religion, she's a mage and she finds it difficult to handle that the Maker claims to love any and all, but would rather see her locked up or dead then free to use her gifts to help other people (she's a spirit healer)
my Inquisitor Juliette Trevelyan is an atheist, when people say she's the 'Chosen of Andraste', she's like..."meh...whatever floats your boat"
also I love the reaction an elven or dwarven Warden can have against that Chantry priest at Ostagar where you meet Ser Jory priest: will you accept the Maker's blessing? elf Warden: ...if I say no, will you attempt to convert me or burn down my home? priest: ...begone heathen! elf Warden: as you wish (trolling shems +10)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 13, 2018 21:30:47 GMT
There are auto-dialogue remarks of the "By the Maker!" type, but IMO that's the same as anyone saying, "Oh my god," which even some atheists do. From what I noticed on my recent play, here aren't any options to explicitly refute belief or faith, but I didn't feel it was forced on me, either. But that's just me. Someone else may feel differently. I personally go down with being religious from each protagonist
my Warden Felicia Cousland is a devout Andrastian (hence she'd never defile the Ashes of Andraste), and believes firmly that the Maker put her on her path for a reason (though she still cursed his name the night her family died), though as the game goes on she starts to doubt her religion as well
my Champion Sinéad Hawke is...doubting her religion, she's a mage and she finds it difficult to handle that the Maker claims to love any and all, but would rather see her locked up or dead then free to use her gifts to help other people (she's a spirit healer)
my Inquisitor Juliette Trevelyan is an atheist, when people say she's the 'Chosen of Andraste', she's like..."meh...whatever floats your boat"
also I love the reaction an elven or dwarven Warden can have against that Chantry priest at Ostagar where you meet Ser Jory priest: will you accept the Maker's blessing? elf Warden: ...if I say no, will you attempt to convert me or burn down my home? priest: ...begone heathen! elf Warden: as you wish (trolling shems +10) "All these years I tried to understand what Andraste saw. Why she had to lock us up. But my powers come from the Maker... and I just cannot believe that is His will." "I always thought it was hard growing up outside of the Circle, always on the run, I never realized, how free I was maybe it took being locked in the Gallows to understand my place in this world to see the need to free my fellow mages." [Hawke: "He (the Maker) just enjoys watching us rip each other apart"] "I cannot believe that. The Maker is just and merciful. This injustice was created by men. A new age begins today. People will overcome their fears and find better ways to live with mages." – Bethany, at the Gallows, before the last battle. A true Andrastian. Just as Anders, and my Hawkes... (Sadly, Bethany needed to spend many years in this awful place for achieving the full enlightment .)
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Post by Iddy on Sept 14, 2018 13:59:49 GMT
Conversation between Aveline and Hawke:
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Post by Sifr on Oct 1, 2018 13:52:53 GMT
On a different note, I've been wondering if Hawke is Andrastian by default or if that is left open to interpretation. I'd like to play an atheist. If Hawke is an Andrastian, it doesn't seem like they're particularly devout. Most of the sarcastic lines referencing the Maker typically come across as fairly flippant (if not outright blasphemous) towards the religion or the Chantry in general.
"First he went after the Maker in His house, then me in mine. I'm honoured."
"If this is the afterlfe, the Chantry owes me an apology. This looks nothing like the Maker's bosom."
So there's enough wiggle room there to play as either an atheist or agnostic.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 2, 2018 20:01:29 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Oct 11, 2018 11:48:53 GMT
I've been thinking about whether to sacrifice Hawke in DAI or not.
There are two party banters where Varric says the best stories are those where the hero dies, so it kinda becomes foreshadowing.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 11, 2018 11:57:20 GMT
I've been thinking about whether to sacrifice Hawke in DAI or not. There are two party banters where Varric says the best stories are those where the hero dies, so it kinda becomes foreshadowing.He said it to Anders, in Act1. Anders: What? Varric: Just wondering if the feathered pauldrons are an essential part of the moody rebel mage persona. Anders: What are you talking about? Varric: I'm working on an epic poem about a hopelessly romantic apostate waging an epic struggle against forces he can't possibly defeat. Anders: What do you mean, "can't possibly defeat?" Varric: Well, it's not a good story unless the hero dies.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 11, 2018 12:47:35 GMT
I've been thinking about whether to sacrifice Hawke in DAI or not. There are two party banters where Varric says the best stories are those where the hero dies, so it kinda becomes foreshadowing.He said it to Anders, in Act1. Anders: What? Varric: Just wondering if the feathered pauldrons are an essential part of the moody rebel mage persona. Anders: What are you talking about? Varric: I'm working on an epic poem about a hopelessly romantic apostate waging an epic struggle against forces he can't possibly defeat. Anders: What do you mean, "can't possibly defeat?" Varric: Well, it's not a good story unless the hero dies. Exactly. So I think that makes Hawke's death pretty cool.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 11, 2018 12:52:44 GMT
He said it to Anders, in Act1. Anders: What? Varric: Just wondering if the feathered pauldrons are an essential part of the moody rebel mage persona. Anders: What are you talking about? Varric: I'm working on an epic poem about a hopelessly romantic apostate waging an epic struggle against forces he can't possibly defeat. Anders: What do you mean, "can't possibly defeat?" Varric: Well, it's not a good story unless the hero dies. Exactly. So I think that makes Hawke's death pretty cool. If you like it, then do it.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 11, 2018 13:32:47 GMT
Exactly. So I think that makes Hawke's death pretty cool. If you like it, then do it. So passive aggressive. This is about the Zevran thing, isn't it? Well, your feelings aren't my problem.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 11, 2018 14:25:47 GMT
If you like it, then do it. So passive aggressive. This is about the Zevran thing, isn't it? Well, your feelings aren't my problem. Zevran thing? No.
I just said, you answered your own question. Don't you?
About the Zevran thing: I see your point, but you came there to ask a question, I tried to give you an alternative view. That's all. But seems you answered your own question in that case as well.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 11, 2018 15:45:36 GMT
So passive aggressive. This is about the Zevran thing, isn't it? Well, your feelings aren't my problem. Zevran thing? No.
I just said, you answered your own question. Don't you?
About the Zevran thing: I see your point, but you came there to ask a question, I tried to give you an alternative view. That's all. But seems you answered your own question in that case as well.
I'm just not sure what was the point of telling me the obvious. If I like it, I naturally will do it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Oct 11, 2018 17:15:34 GMT
I've been thinking about whether to sacrifice Hawke in DAI or not. There are two party banters where Varric says the best stories are those where the hero dies, so it kinda becomes foreshadowing. Doesn't the warden companion, if they survive, also end up leading one side of a grey warden civil war or something? Cuz if so that's pretty badass and another reason to consider killing Hawke.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 11, 2018 22:45:27 GMT
Except Hawke isn't the hero in DAI -- or "All This Shit Is Weird" is if you want to go with the theme -- the Inquisitor is. Hawke's story was DA2. Also, I'd argue that because the choice is out of Hawke's hands, it's less heroic, regardless of what Hawke says during the scene.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 12, 2018 3:30:14 GMT
I'd say that it makes more sense for the Warden-ally to sacrifice themselves in that scenario over Hawke. It was the Grey Wardens decision to ally with Erimond and use blood magic that lead to Nightmare nearly being set loose upon the world, so having a Warden be the one preventing his escape seems fitting. Wardens are all about sacrifice (it's in their motto), so having the Warden-ally sacrifice themselves to not only allow their comrades to escape the Fade, but to save their fellow Wardens from themselves, works far better thematically. Finally, the Warden-ally was forced to go on the run after their fellow Wardens branded them a traitor for objecting to Clarel's plan. So having the supposed "traitor" be the only one still embodying the Warden ideal and die trying to atone for their order's sins, shows them as a shining example of what the Warden's should be aspire to be*... and just how far the Orlesian Wardens fell from the mark. (*Even more poignant if the Warden-ally is Loghain) The Warden-ally being left behind feels far more natural to the story (IMO). Whereas Hawke dying to save the Wardens (however heroic it is) doesn't seem nearly as meaningful, as they have only a tenuous connection to the order at best.
(And no, I'm not only saying this because I adore Hawke's character and found this scenario to rather contrived)
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 12, 2018 4:09:53 GMT
Sifr Most of that logic -- though not as well thought-out as yours! -- is my reasoning for picking the warden ally as well. In the moment, the Inquisitor is asked to make a choice. I honestly don't think that there is any sort of strategic calculus at play here as the basis for said choice. Hawke makes the claim that the Grey Wardens need Warden Whoever to rebuild, but that just isn't true. The only wardens affected by this are those in Orlais and Ferelden; the wardens in Weisshaupt and elsewhere are fine. The Grey Wardens as an organization will be fine. Aside from that, although Warden Whoever might be a senior warden, he's not in any significant position of leadership. It might even be that, should "rebuilding" be necessary in those countries, Weisshaupt would appoint someone completely different, as they did with positions in DAA. I'll also add that I dislike the writers forcing this guilt over Corypheus on Hawke and that Hawke uses that in his reasoning as well. They killed him during Legacy. He was "dead on the ground." I have pics to prove it! There is no reason whatsoever for Hawke to think that Corypheus wasn't really dead or that he had a means of jumping bodies, preventing his true death. (The game gives that idea to the player, but Hawke isn't shown to have that understanding.) My Hawke feels no guilt about that whatsoever. I don't think any Hawke should feel any guilt over it. Now, I'll say that my Inquisitor doesn't have most of that in mind with the choice. For him, it's mostly about the idea of allowing the Wardens a little bit of redemption by allowing Warden Whoever to make that sacrifice. Despite that reasoning, I'm glad I get to call them idiots and yell at them after we're out of the Fade. While I am of course happy to save Hawke, particularly for Fenris's sake, if I had a good RP reason to justify Hawke's sacrifice, I would take it. But I don't, so Hawke gets to live. I also agree that it was contrived. It was so blatant a contrivance that it partly takes me out of the gravity of the scene.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Oct 12, 2018 11:45:02 GMT
I do think it's silly for the Inquisitor to be the one to make that choice (and for the choice to even be in the game). If a character in any story is going to sacrifice themselves asking permission from someone else to do so takes all the drama out of it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 943 Likes: 1,658
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Post by boxofscreaming on Oct 12, 2018 17:15:18 GMT
I'll also add that I dislike the writers forcing this guilt over Corypheus on Hawke and that Hawke uses that in his reasoning as well. They killed him during Legacy. He was "dead on the ground." I have pics to prove it! There is no reason whatsoever for Hawke to think that Corypheus wasn't really dead or that he had a means of jumping bodies, preventing his true death. (The game gives that idea to the player, but Hawke isn't shown to have that understanding.) My Hawke feels no guilt about that whatsoever. I don't think any Hawke should feel any guilt over it. Yeah, that really irritated me. Hawke's attitude doesn't ring true at all or even make sense - whatever mistakes Hawke might have made the events of Legacy aren't among them. That's part of why I choose to keep Hawke alive - if I'm going to kill off my hero it should be for a good reason a la the Warden in Origins.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 13, 2018 19:35:04 GMT
I've been thinking about whether to sacrifice Hawke in DAI or not. There are two party banters where Varric says the best stories are those where the hero dies, so it kinda becomes foreshadowing. Sacrificing Hawke is always the wrong answer I agree with the warden reasoning given by several other people already. Plus, the warden is living on borrowed time anyway due to the taint. Would it really be worth it to sacrifice someone who might have decades of life left (Hawke), in order to let the warden live for a few more years and then go to his death in the Deep Roads anyway? If they wanted to give Hawke a good reason to sacrifice themselves, rather than pile on contrived guilt over Corypheus, they should have made it so that Hawke's sibling -- if he or she is a warden -- is the warden contact for the mission. They could have leveraged Hawke's guilt over what happened to Bethany/Carver rather than make up something completely unbelievable.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 14, 2018 5:19:30 GMT
I'll also add that I dislike the writers forcing this guilt over Corypheus on Hawke and that Hawke uses that in his reasoning as well. They killed him during Legacy. He was "dead on the ground." I have pics to prove it! There is no reason whatsoever for Hawke to think that Corypheus wasn't really dead or that he had a means of jumping bodies, preventing his true death. (The game gives that idea to the player, but Hawke isn't shown to have that understanding.) My Hawke feels no guilt about that whatsoever. I don't think any Hawke should feel any guilt over it. But what endlessly frustrates me about this forced sense of guilt and responsibility, is that it somehow doesn't translate to Hawke joining the Inquisition and sticking around to help put Corypheus in the ground for good... something that would have been in-character and allowed them to resolve their guilt.
Instead they decided to go play messenger to Weisshaupt for the Wardens. Because obviously, a non-Warden is the only person that was right for the job... rather than asking any other Warden in Adamant to do it.
I know, I know... I've complained about this many times before.
But I am never going to let that go. If they wanted to give Hawke a good reason to sacrifice themselves, rather than pile on contrived guilt over Corypheus, they should have made it so that Hawke's sibling -- if he or she is a warden -- is the warden contact for the mission. They could have leveraged Hawke's guilt over what happened to Bethany/Carver rather than make up something completely unbelievable. Could have made it so that in that scenario, we weren't even given a choice to decide who sacrificed themselves. When Bethany/Carver would insist on being the one to stay behind, Hawke would charge Nightmare before anyone got the chance to argue about it.
The audience is allowed to interpret this however they want. Was it an act of selfless heroism, wanting to keep their family safe, ensuring that Varric got out (if he's there), or because they weren't going to stand around all day debating about it?
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2018 7:13:47 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Oct 31, 2018 16:11:43 GMT
God, I hate it when I only notice the flaws in my characters' design AFTER I finish the campaign.
I realized that his eyebrows are way too close to his eyes. Sure, there is the emporium, but it's pointless to change it now.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 31, 2018 16:30:09 GMT
Happy Halloween! source
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Post by Sifr on Nov 2, 2018 7:23:03 GMT
Stuff like this is why I low-key ship Aveline/Hawke and wish she'd been a romance option.
Between her tireless work to protect Kirkwall, Hawke and Kirkwall from Hawke, she's the real hero of DA2.
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