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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 18, 2016 6:53:04 GMT
Hm. opuspace that's an interesting point. He does say they can nearly remember everything -- for instance they don't remember childbirth, although that might be more of a brain development aspect. I wonder if this is more about what a memory really is or if the specific memories they do remember are crystal -- like his wife's funeral, though he does mention he can remember every hit... With the horizon comment he might've meant it more as how he didn't stop to appreciate it. Even if it has flickers in his memory it wouldn't be a significant detail? I don't think drell can go Minority Report and analyze their memories? Oh, wait. Can they relive when they remember things too?
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Post by opuspace on Aug 18, 2016 7:27:46 GMT
Thane did say that Drell can lose themselves into their memories. The closest thing he could liken it to was solipsism, where the only thing that can be verified to exist is through oneself (yeah, that one's gonna be hard to describe). The idea that you can only be certain something exists is if you experience it yourself. Memory is...a really messed up experience in what is truth. I've read that when recalling something, you're not remembering the incident, you're remembering the recollection of that incident. Biases can revise what you recall, making the memory the opposite of what you started with. People have experimented with this and deliberately messed with a person's accuracy. An example was a girl who told her boyfriend over and over about a red car she loved that they passed on the road. By the time she brought the topic back up three hours later, she switched the color to green and her boyfriend swore up and down they had passed a green car until she showed him the pic of the red car they passed. Another example can be the passage of time. If the past feels as real as the present, time may mean nothing because the memories, the emotions experienced are just as fresh as the day you felt them. So it can come as a surprise to realize your love of a game is now considered old and outdated. I would really love to see how a Drell's short term and long term memory functions, how quickly and how long their working memory lasts and what their hippocampus would look like.
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 14:08:47 GMT
Hey everyone Im still sometimes watching this Do You still remember those days, when we had faith in devs, that they will save my ours drell?
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Post by Entropy on Aug 18, 2016 17:29:35 GMT
Thane did say that Drell can lose themselves into their memories. The closest thing he could liken it to was solipsism, where the only thing that can be verified to exist is through oneself (yeah, that one's gonna be hard to describe). The idea that you can only be certain something exists is if you experience it yourself. Memory is...a really messed up experience in what is truth. I've read that when recalling something, you're not remembering the incident, you're remembering the recollection of that incident. Biases can revise what you recall, making the memory the opposite of what you started with. People have experimented with this and deliberately messed with a person's accuracy. An example was a girl who told her boyfriend over and over about a red car she loved that they passed on the road. By the time she brought the topic back up three hours later, she switched the color to green and her boyfriend swore up and down they had passed a green car until she showed him the pic of the red car they passed. Another example can be the passage of time. If the past feels as real as the present, time may mean nothing because the memories, the emotions experienced are just as fresh as the day you felt them. So it can come as a surprise to realize your love of a game is now considered old and outdated. I would really love to see how a Drell's short term and long term memory functions, how quickly and how long their working memory lasts and what their hippocampus would look like. You bring up a very interesting question. Sometime ago I saw a documentary that gave quite the insight about how our brain works. Looks like even if our eyes capture all the data in our visual field, our brain only commits to memory what it considers relevant. In the documentary they showed different tests to prove this point, one of them consisted on watching a video then you were asked to count how many times some basketball players pass to each other the ball. If you don't know already the answer I encourage you to see this video and follow its instructions before you continue reading... Did you "see" the gorilla? Most people don't. Their brains are preoccupied so the gorilla never is committed to memory therefore for them it was never there.
Assuming Drell's memories work in a similar fashion, makes sense what Thane says, as he can only relive what his brain collected as relevant. Other option could be something like what is shown it that TV series "Unforgettable" where the protagonist has perfect memory and can review every detail in her visual field, to the point of creating a virtual space where she can freely move from a third-person perspective. I personally think this is not the case for Drell, Thane says ". ..the warmth of another's hand on yours, the taste of another's tongue in your mouth..." this seems to imply a first-person perspective, not only that, I think it is harder to lose oneself to the memories when you are an spectator... and awkward as hell when you relive some... intimate moments RGC Ines I do remember that video!! It hurts to think how Bioware mislead us with the Shadow Broker dossier and that medigel for lungs!! Argh!! Why Bioware, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!
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Post by Entropy on Aug 18, 2016 17:45:09 GMT
Hm. opuspace that's an interesting point. He does say they can nearly remember everything -- for instance they don't remember childbirth, ... *snip* I don't know... but I suddenly remembered a quote from Ladyhawke movie... when the character portrayed by Matthew Broderick escapes the dungeon he says: "This is not unlike escaping my mother's womb. God, what a memory."
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 18, 2016 18:13:09 GMT
Abnocte About BioWare...well they didn't missleading us, Thanemancers...They just totally forgot about Thane and throw him out of the window. I don't know if You remember, but after ME3 there was also a lot of question about Thane, crappy " sex" scene in a hospital etc. I can't find this post now, but one Dev, who wrote Thane for ME3 ( Thane's creator left BioWare after ME2 if I good remember), said, that he forgot, that Thane was a romance in ME2. I said then, it's a lie, becouse why they include this crappy sex scene in hospital, and some dialogs if he don't know about romances..I think, that new dev just havn't idea about writing a LI, or it was too hard work for him, or something ( maybe he just disliked Thane?). To be honest I was more angry by the way Thane dies, and my Shep friends lack of any reaction after than that Thane dies. I knew, that he is a sick and there's only a few months left for him, when I decided to romance him, and while it would be great for Thane to survive I was prepared to lose him. But I wasn't prepared for horrible writing and stupid death scene....They done something similar those poor Jacob fans...
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Post by Entropy on Aug 18, 2016 19:01:44 GMT
I just kept an eye on the non spoilers forums so I didn't know about the writer saying he "forgot".
Everyone can get forgetful at times... that is why it is a good habit to write things down, something in a company the size of Bioware I'm sure is strongly encouraged if not mandatory. Documentation is important, pivotal to development, so I'm not buying the "I forgot" line.
Even less when you can run into Conrad Verner in ME3 and whether he lives or not depends on having dealt with Jenna in ME. Those are very minor optional side-quests, hell even Refund guy made it into ME3!!
I was also prepared to lose him, but no to have the game forget he ever existed after he dies.
Bioware should have taken more time to develop ME3, it feels as if they cut corners everywhere...
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Post by opuspace on Aug 18, 2016 20:06:03 GMT
The worst part of Thane's funeral was that when Kolyat mentioned asking the Salarian counselor for help researching Kepral's disease, I wanted to kick something. I had been asking why doesn't Mordin work on it since he took an interest in Joker's brittle bone disease. I had hoped that there'd be an option for Thane to live if he had been romanced. It would have given me incentive to import a Thane playthrough and given other players a choice in keeping him alive or dead.
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 0:20:29 GMT
Haha! I just wanted to say, Entropy, that I've never seen that video and that I counted 14 passes, so I missed one. That gorilla distracted me. I had wondered if drell memory was 100% objectively correct or not. I wonder if maybe, because of this unique trait, their memories might be generally more accurate/absorbent than humans. Perhaps the hard facts always remain, like the colour of this or the amount of that, but the way the memories are experienced are the subjective part because of individual emotion. After all I'm sure Thane's memory of the time he saw Irika would be different from her perspective. So, would 2 drell remember the same event with the same facts? Would they favor certain aspects based on their personal perspectives? Will we get drell in MEA? Because I'm hoping so.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 19, 2016 0:36:31 GMT
Haha! I just wanted to say, Entropy, that I've never seen that video and that I counted 14 passes, so I missed one. That gorilla distracted me. I had wondered if drell memory was 100% objectively correct or not. I wonder if maybe, because of this unique trait, their memories might be generally more accurate/absorbent than humans. Perhaps the hard facts always remain, like the colour of this or the amount of that, but the way the memories are experienced are the subjective part because of individual emotion. After all I'm sure Thane's memory of the time he saw Irika would be different from her perspective. So, would 2 drell remember the same event with the same facts? Would they favor certain aspects based on their personal perspectives? Will we get drell in MEA? Because I'm hoping so. Thinking back on Thane's memory recalls, they're very sensory based, like touch, taste or emotion or something is tagged onto the experience. It's not a cold, distant accounting, there's something personalized to their memories. "Warmth of another's hand." "Taste of another's tongue." "Brightly colored lights, laughing, shrieking as they dart through the dark." It's all very poetic, though that may be more Thane's quirk, so you're right Spirit Vanguard, it is very likely different for each Drell. It'd have to be considering the differences of each one's experience. Now, watching a Drell and Salarian face off in a memory match would be fun to see!
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Post by straykat on Aug 19, 2016 9:57:18 GMT
Thane had some cut content... there was a bunch of cuts that would have made the story better with all characters really.
For him, they planned on a mission to Kahje (or Kolyat if Thane died). It was combined with Kasumi's existing stuff about indoctrinated Hanar and Kasumi and Thane helped out.
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 19, 2016 10:22:34 GMT
Thane had some cut content... there was a bunch of cuts that would have made the story better with all characters really. For him, they planned on a mission to Kahje (or Kolyat if Thane died). It was combined with Kasumi's existing stuff about indoctrinated Hanar and Kasumi and Thane helped out. Yes, I saw it in leaked scripts too. Also there was something about Spectre killed by Shepard ( and it wasn't VS), also the ending was different if I good remember
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Post by straykat on Aug 19, 2016 10:35:29 GMT
Thane had some cut content... there was a bunch of cuts that would have made the story better with all characters really. For him, they planned on a mission to Kahje (or Kolyat if Thane died). It was combined with Kasumi's existing stuff about indoctrinated Hanar and Kasumi and Thane helped out. Yes, I saw it in leaked scripts too. Also there was something about Spectre killed by Shepard ( and it wasn't VS), also the ending was different if I good remember I missed the bit about a Spectre. Hmm. In any case, it's kind of sad.. because I think some of their original ideas were pretty inspired. But I still enjoy the game nonetheless.
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Post by RGC Ines on Aug 19, 2016 17:07:13 GMT
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Post by Entropy on Aug 19, 2016 17:28:36 GMT
SpiritVanguard I agree with you and opuspace , Thane words imply their memories are nuanced by their emotions at that time. And if the selective attention test were applicable to Drell... they don't really have "perfect" memories but the ability "relive" those memories perfectly... About Drell in ME:A... who knows there were very few of them left and their main role was to help Hanar with tasks they couldn't handle. So unless the Hanar deemed sending Drell off in the Ark an important investment I doubt we will see them. I wonder how many species from the trilogy will make it into Andromeda... so far the footage shown includes Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Human if I remember correctly. What about Elcor? Hanar? Vorcha? Batarians? Volus?... Turians and Quarians of course... Thane had some cut content... there was a bunch of cuts that would have made the story better with all characters really. For him, they planned on a mission to Kahje (or Kolyat if Thane died). It was combined with Kasumi's existing stuff about indoctrinated Hanar and Kasumi and Thane helped out. I didn't know about this, when the leak happened I avoided it like the plague... now from time to time I wonder what was really in there and if, given more development time, it would have made the game better... Oh well, what is done is done... I will just headcanon the whole thing
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Post by straykat on Aug 19, 2016 18:07:51 GMT
SpiritVanguard I agree with you and opuspace , Thane words imply their memories are nuanced by their emotions at that time. And if the selective attention test were applicable to Drell... they don't really have "perfect" memories but the ability "relive" those memories perfectly... About Drell in ME:A... who knows there were very few of them left and their main role was to help Hanar with tasks they couldn't handle. So unless the Hanar deemed sending Drell off in the Ark an important investment I doubt we will see them. I wonder how many species from the trilogy will make it into Andromeda... so far the footage shown includes Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Human if I remember correctly. What about Elcor? Hanar? Vorcha? Batarians? Volus?... Turians and Quarians of course... Thane had some cut content... there was a bunch of cuts that would have made the story better with all characters really. For him, they planned on a mission to Kahje (or Kolyat if Thane died). It was combined with Kasumi's existing stuff about indoctrinated Hanar and Kasumi and Thane helped out. I didn't know about this, when the leak happened I avoided it like the plague... now from time to time I wonder what was really in there and if, given more development time, it would have made the game better... Oh well, what is done is done... I will just headcanon the whole thing It'd definitely be better. What do we get instead? Kasumi's little cutscenes. When this was a full blown mission, complete with crazy Hanar waterworld.
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Post by Entropy on Aug 19, 2016 19:41:04 GMT
Too bad videogames don't get remakes like movies do...
I haven't played Leviathan but I read there is an underwater level... the Hanar homeworld... man it could have been glorious!
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Post by SpiritVanguard on Aug 19, 2016 22:10:08 GMT
The cut content definitely sounds better, or at least more entertaining. The Spectre bit might've been meant for Jondum Bau who gives the Kasumi mission in 3 -- if Kasumi isn't there Shep has to choose between saving the Hanar or Bau. I would've loved to go to the hanar homeworld. Assuming it could've been: underwater levels in video games pretty much always suck, but I always hope one day one won't. That was one of the reasons I was interested in playing Leviathan -- I forget who mentioned it here that they haven't played so I won't say more than that. I feel like Thane/drell/hanar thing was wasted potential which is part of why I feel they should be in MEA. I get they want to move things along, but... bleh. Playing favorites with past aliens isn't a better approach. Even if it's just a handful of drell, in the background or something, they could be there. I don't give the small population angle much weight, either. If a single drell wanted to go and qualified -- since this whole Andromeda venture could be a volunteer thing -- there's no reason to exclude them entirely. Especially if they have a particular set of skills...
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Post by Entropy on Aug 21, 2016 10:42:07 GMT
SpiritVanguard I agree with you about the wasted potential of Drell, we are introduced to them in the second game and we only meet three of them... well two since Feron is only seen if you have the DLC. There is a lot of species with great potential, Bioware created an incredible rich world of which we only saw the tip of the iceberg... I can understand that the story that was told wasn't the kind to lent itself for future instalments and I would have been ok with that. Yet Bioware/EA finally decided to continue the franchise but move it to Andromeda, which by the way is 2.5 million light-years away, and I feel a lot of species will be left out, if only because the new galaxy has to have their own species and we can't have them all. I they are going to milk the cow, why not make such the decision earlier in development? Then they could write an ending that lends itself for future games in the Milky Way. *sigh*
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 19:44:27 GMT
I will be hanging out here.
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Post by Entropy on Aug 21, 2016 20:27:00 GMT
I will be hanging out here. Wellcome!! Please, make yourself comfortable I added the video to the OP, I think "Futuristic Lover" was the first or second Thane video I ever ran into...how fitting the song was Also lets have some art... Thane in a tuxedo... by Layerx3
Thane and Garrus being good buddies... Exchange by a-iccara
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Post by Entropy on Aug 25, 2016 12:15:23 GMT
As much as I love Thane, no way I spend 310$ on his statue... It looks really nice tough! Thane statueDamn! I can link the photos!!Edit: Whahahahaha!! I found the links to the photos! I really like this one...
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Post by dalinne on Aug 25, 2016 13:53:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 1:20:38 GMT
I'll purchase the statue, cannot resist, but later this year. I am pretty much broke after paying tuition and book bills.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 1:29:09 GMT
I will be posting some Thane inspiration, art and fanfiction I also cannot resist. ColdwetN0se how could you get me so addicted to this video. Yes, Seal is wearing Thane's jumpsuit. AndromedaShepard Thane ArtA Human Day fan comic. It was given a seal of approval by Thane's original writer, Chris L'Etoile. A Human Day by Grey Carter
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