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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 0:13:00 GMT
Also with any luck we are moving out of Kirkwall for a bit and on to Starkhaven, so Sebastian would be involved if only as someone else for her to annoy. Sebastian wasn't that bad a character. For a Chantry stalwart he was remarkably open minded when it came to chatting to people like Merrill. He was certainly a lot kinder towards her than either Anders or Fenris. In some ways it would be interesting to see how he has developed over the years but I dare say he will just be in the background with a small cameo appearance. I am cynical, but I always interpreted Sebastian's banter with others as preparing them for proselyting, or at least Fenris and Merrill. He was friendly, but with an ulterior motive.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 6, 2017 9:25:20 GMT
Let's face it, there are quite a few characters in Dragon Age that are "friendly with an ulterior motive". Sebastian wasn't the only one "preaching" his beliefs in the game and a lot less obnoxious about it than either Anders or Fenris. Wasn't Anders constantly trying to "convert" you to his viewpoint about mages? Wasn't Fenris? At least Sebastian was prepared to discuss other people's viewpoints in a reasonable and measured manner and didn't expect them to immediately capitulate and convert on the spot. I found Anders far more irritating how he kept ramming his mage message down people's throats, even if I believed that his views were largely correct on the matter.
It seems to me that Sebastian gets so much hate because he is sincerely devoted to his religion. I found him interesting because he illustrated the conflict between the "ideal" of the Andrastrian faith and the reality of its practice. If you took him round with Averline in particular in Act 3, you discovered just how much Meredith was now acting without the approval of Elthina and in fact outright ignoring her. Sebastian was the only person who vocally opposed the suggestion of the Annulment of the Circle on the grounds that the culprit for bombing the Chantry was sitting right there having confesses to it. Then people seem to hold it against him that he then starts threatening a crusade if you spare Anders.
It just illustrated how a basically good person can be driven to extreme action and he did have a point when he said he could have been in the Chantry, apart from all the other innocent people who were killed. Yet for many people, Anders blowing the place sky high was justified but Sebastian's reaction was not. In my case, when I didn't have the DLC I spared Anders for the reason Merrill advocated; he had caused the annulment by his action so he could help me save the mages. However, once I had Sebastian there, I was more inclined to execute Anders as too dangerous to have running around the place and then Sebastian supported me in saving the mages, even conceding my point that Andraste would be there alongside us, waving her torch of freedom as well.
For me the most annoying thing about Sebastian was his procrastination about whether or not he should take up the princedom. To my mind if the current ruler had got there through corruption and murder of course they should be replaced. His family had originally come to power because his ancestor used peaceful protest to replace a tyrant. If he followed in that grand tradition he could do far more for the ordinary people of Starkhaven than skulking in the Chantry regardless of what his own preference might be, even if he subsequently abdicated in favour of someone more suited to leadership.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2017 10:20:37 GMT
Also with any luck we are moving out of Kirkwall for a bit and on to Starkhaven, so Sebastian would be involved if only as someone else for her to annoy. Sebastian wasn't that bad a character. For a Chantry stalwart he was remarkably open minded when it came to chatting to people like Merrill. He was certainly a lot kinder towards her than either Anders or Fenris. In some ways it would be interesting to see how he has developed over the years but I dare say he will just be in the background with a small cameo appearance. I am cynical, but I always interpreted Sebastian's banter with others as preparing them for proselyting, or at least Fenris and Merrill. He was friendly, but with an ulterior motive. I didn't saw his ulterior motive, I think, he is honest, he really wants to be a person whom he shows himself, but failed. He has too much envy and vengeance inside.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 12:36:45 GMT
Let's face it, there are quite a few characters in Dragon Age that are "friendly with an ulterior motive". Sebastian wasn't the only one "preaching" his beliefs in the game and a lot less obnoxious about it than either Anders or Fenris. Wasn't Anders constantly trying to "convert" you to his viewpoint about mages? Wasn't Fenris? At least Sebastian was prepared to discuss other people's viewpoints in a reasonable and measured manner and didn't expect them to immediately capitulate and convert on the spot. I found Anders far more irritating how he kept ramming his mage message down people's throats, even if I believed that his views were largely correct on the matter. It seems to me that Sebastian gets so much hate because he is sincerely devoted to his religion. I found him interesting because he illustrated the conflict between the "ideal" of the Andrastrian faith and the reality of its practice. If you took him round with Averline in particular in Act 3, you discovered just how much Meredith was now acting without the approval of Elthina and in fact outright ignoring her. Sebastian was the only person who vocally opposed the suggestion of the Annulment of the Circle on the grounds that the culprit for bombing the Chantry was sitting right there having confesses to it. Then people seem to hold it against him that he then starts threatening a crusade if you spare Anders. It just illustrated how a basically good person can be driven to extreme action and he did have a point when he said he could have been in the Chantry, apart from all the other innocent people who were killed. Yet for many people, Anders blowing the place sky high was justified but Sebastian's reaction was not. In my case, when I didn't have the DLC I spared Anders for the reason Merrill advocated; he had caused the annulment by his action so he could help me save the mages. However, once I had Sebastian there, I was more inclined to execute Anders as too dangerous to have running around the place and then Sebastian supported me in saving the mages, even conceding my point that Andraste would be there alongside us, waving her torch of freedom as well. For me the most annoying thing about Sebastian was his procrastination about whether or not he should take up the princedom. To my mind if the current ruler had got there through corruption and murder of course they should be replaced. His family had originally come to power because his ancestor used peaceful protest to replace a tyrant. If he followed in that grand tradition he could do far more for the ordinary people of Starkhaven than skulking in the Chantry regardless of what his own preference might be, even if he subsequently abdicated in favour of someone more suited to leadership. It's been a while since I've played DA2 so I may be mixing up details. But my impressions were that, while Anders and Fenris can be too one sided at times and it's exhausting, they are always open about their stance about magic. In fact they are so up front about it that their banter is too aggressive, attacking people who don't agree or are undecided. My view of Sebastian proselytizing is that he starts out banter discussing a character's faith and then winds it around to ask if they can see it from an Andrastean point of view. It's not negative and in fact is a nice change from the constant bickering of Anders and Fenris. But they felt much more like "how can you possibly disagree with me" while Sebastian is more "but have you tried Andraste" My personal dislike of Sebastian's actions at the end is that he swears vengeance against all of Kirkwall if Anders isn't killed. He's the exact same as Anders, willing to kill innocents in the way of his personal mission. I agree when he says the guilty party is right in front of them and should be dealt with rather than infighting at the Gallows, but swearing to tear down an entire city for one man isn't reasonable. It might have been the heat of the moment but then in DAI's war table he follows through with the threat; he even invades Kirkwall knowing that Anders isn't there anymore. At that point it felt like he was using Anders as an excuse to try and add Kirkwall to Starkhaven's territory. I wish that Trespasser had had more mention of the transition of power between Sebastian and Varric, as it could have been interesting if Sebastian actually tried to unify the Free Marches like others have before.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2017 13:18:10 GMT
Let's face it, there are quite a few characters in Dragon Age that are "friendly with an ulterior motive". Sebastian wasn't the only one "preaching" his beliefs in the game and a lot less obnoxious about it than either Anders or Fenris. Wasn't Anders constantly trying to "convert" you to his viewpoint about mages? Wasn't Fenris? At least Sebastian was prepared to discuss other people's viewpoints in a reasonable and measured manner and didn't expect them to immediately capitulate and convert on the spot. I found Anders far more irritating how he kept ramming his mage message down people's throats, even if I believed that his views were largely correct on the matter.
It seems to me that Sebastian gets so much hate because he is sincerely devoted to his religion. I found him interesting because he illustrated the conflict between the "ideal" of the Andrastrian faith and the reality of its practice. If you took him round with Averline in particular in Act 3, you discovered just how much Meredith was now acting without the approval of Elthina and in fact outright ignoring her. Sebastian was the only person who vocally opposed the suggestion of the Annulment of the Circle on the grounds that the culprit for bombing the Chantry was sitting right there having confesses to it. Then people seem to hold it against him that he then starts threatening a crusade if you spare Anders.
It just illustrated how a basically good person can be driven to extreme action and he did have a point when he said he could have been in the Chantry, apart from all the other innocent people who were killed. Yet for many people, Anders blowing the place sky high was justified but Sebastian's reaction was not. In my case, when I didn't have the DLC I spared Anders for the reason Merrill advocated; he had caused the annulment by his action so he could help me save the mages. However, once I had Sebastian there, I was more inclined to execute Anders as too dangerous to have running around the place and then Sebastian supported me in saving the mages, even conceding my point that Andraste would be there alongside us, waving her torch of freedom as well.
For me the most annoying thing about Sebastian was his procrastination about whether or not he should take up the princedom. To my mind if the current ruler had got there through corruption and murder of course they should be replaced. His family had originally come to power because his ancestor used peaceful protest to replace a tyrant. If he followed in that grand tradition he could do far more for the ordinary people of Starkhaven than skulking in the Chantry regardless of what his own preference might be, even if he subsequently abdicated in favour of someone more suited to leadership. It's been a while since I've played DA2 so I may be mixing up details. But my impressions were that, while Anders and Fenris can be too one sided at times and it's exhausting, they are always open about their stance about magic. In fact they are so up front about it that their banter is too aggressive, attacking people who don't agree or are undecided. My view of Sebastian proselytizing is that he starts out banter discussing a character's faith and then winds it around to ask if they can see it from an Andrastean point of view. It's not negative and in fact is a nice change from the constant bickering of Anders and Fenris. But they felt much more like "how can you possibly disagree with me" while Sebastian is more "but have you tried Andraste"
My personal dislike of Sebastian's actions at the end is that he swears vengeance against all of Kirkwall if Anders isn't killed. He's the exact same as Anders, willing to kill innocents in the way of his personal mission. I agree when he says the guilty party is right in front of them and should be dealt with rather than infighting at the Gallows, but swearing to tear down an entire city for one man isn't reasonable. It might have been the heat of the moment but then in DAI's war table he follows through with the threat; he even invades Kirkwall knowing that Anders isn't there anymore. At that point it felt like he was using Anders as an excuse to try and add Kirkwall to Starkhaven's territory. I wish that Trespasser had had more mention of the transition of power between Sebastian and Varric, as it could have been interesting if Sebastian actually tried to unify the Free Marches like others have before. Fenris' viewpoint wasn't really one sided, Fenris surprisingly open-minded, if he can get rid out of his fear for a moment and capable of objective thinking (and the end of the game, if Hawke supports him, he already capable of supporting Mages, with or without doubts, it depend on his state. If Hawke didn't care about him, hi will insist his fear, and follow his own way, of course). Anders' viewpoint seems more simple, because at the moment he considers the freedom importance at the first place. But he aware of the danger of the magic. (Bethany–Anders banter about the studies, and his other comment about the blood Mages etc.) Fenris' (initial) hostility (or rather distrust) against the mages is understandable, just as Anders' hostility against him, after that Fenris refused his ask for help, and more mutual insults and misunderstanding exacerbated the situation. Sebastian is different: have no personal interest in the Mage issues, he just conveys Chantry's teachings and beliefs, and faithfully accepts the order of the Chantry. As I see, he not "more Andrastian" as Anders, he just have faith in the Chantry's order, and wants to be pious. He's perspective very interesting, his benevolence is undeniable. Until it becomes personal. Sebastian in Inquisition is even worse than Anders. Anders blew up the Chantry because he considered it necessary, not for vengeance, Sebastian tried to annex Kirkwall only from pure blind personal vengeance. Anders reached his goal, but what was Sebastian's goal?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 6, 2017 14:17:29 GMT
I don't think you can categorically say that Anders didn't blow up the Chantry out of vengeance. He maintains that it was his anger against the Chantry that twisted Justice into Vengeance and after all his former lover had been made tranquil, resulting in Anders being forced to kill him. Anders' crusade certainly started as a desire to free the mages but I don't believe his motives were clear cut by the end. After all he was quite willing to sacrifice the mages in the Circle as well as the people in the Chantry to achieve his ends and to my mind he could have made exactly the same statement by blowing up the Gallows. Towards the end he was also constantly justifying the extreme action of some mages on the grounds that they had no choice. I found his words to Sister Nightingale quite chilling.
I don't understand why they had Sebastian still attack Kirkwall so late in the day. As you say, Anders had already left along with Hawke, whilst the survivors were just trying to cope in the aftermath, so his march against the city just didn't make sense. I can only think that Justinia being blown up in what would appear to him to be a very similar fashion to Elthina just sent him over the edge. That's the problem with some of the war table missions that involve former allies, you just don't have the opportunity to discover what their motivations now are.
Does the speech from Varric in Trespasser change if Sebastian attacked Kirkwall? I've not had a play through with Anders surviving and Sebastian recruited, so don't know how different it would be. You'd think that Varric would mention it in both the main game and in Trespasser if Sebastian had marched against his favourite city.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2017 15:00:32 GMT
I don't think you can categorically say that Anders didn't blow up the Chantry out of vengeance. He maintains that it was his anger against the Chantry that twisted Justice into Vengeance and after all his former lover had been made tranquil, resulting in Anders being forced to kill him. Anders' crusade certainly started as a desire to free the mages but I don't believe his motives were clear cut by the end. After all he was quite willing to sacrifice the mages in the Circle as well as the people in the Chantry to achieve his ends and to my mind he could have made exactly the same statement by blowing up the Gallows. Towards the end he was also constantly justifying the extreme action of some mages on the grounds that they had no choice. I found his words to Sister Nightingale quite chilling.
I don't understand why they had Sebastian still attack Kirkwall so late in the day. As you say, Anders had already left along with Hawke, whilst the survivors were just trying to cope in the aftermath, so his march against the city just didn't make sense. I can only think that Justinia being blown up in what would appear to him to be a very similar fashion to Elthina just sent him over the edge. That's the problem with some of the war table missions that involve former allies, you just don't have the opportunity to discover what their motivations now are.
Does the speech from Varric in Trespasser change if Sebastian attacked Kirkwall? I've not had a play through with Anders surviving and Sebastian recruited, so don't know how different it would be. You'd think that Varric would mention it in both the main game and in Trespasser if Sebastian had marched against his favourite city. This only depends on interpretation. After Karl's death Anders told to Hawke, that he think, that his anger already turned Justice into Vengeance, but not because of Karl, rather because of Karl AND older memories ( probably when he left the Wardens, perhaps this is what he thought, when he frightened Merrill, if he didn't killed Ella), but I didn't saw any signs of vengeance until seven years, when Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground and sent the request for the Annulment to the Divine. Yes, at the Act3 Anders already planned the explosion, and his reaction to an agent of the Divine was understandable. (I don't exclude the influence of Resolutionists.) The border between the justice and the vengeance may blur, this just rarely totally clear (Isabela–Anders banter). I think, Anders did it for the rebellion, but this not excludes the desire of revenge. With the Elthina's death, he really took away the possibility of compromise and destroyed a symbol of oppression. If he would blew up the Gallows, who would interesting about it? This was an ugly, depressing place, where lives the Mages... This wasn't meaningless or blind vengeance. But this is my opinion so many people think, that without Anders' act Kirkwall would be been a flourish peaceful place. You don't need to understand Sebastian's act. That was blind vengeance, and as such a thing was totally meaningless... or he wanted to rule Kirkwall. He likes power so much. And he used "justice" to justification his desire. Seems as Anders? I think not. He even worse. The Chantry's oppression was clear, but Kirkwall did not threaten Starkhaven. I think not. Varric try to avoid Sebastian's letters, or something similar.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 7, 2017 16:40:35 GMT
Varric simply avoided answering routine correspondence from Sebastian but I'm sure Bran would have informed him if Sebastian was threatening an imminent invasion and I cannot believe that Varric would be so cavalier in his attitude as to not be concerned about it.
The idea that Sebastian likes power so much he would invade Kirkwall is why I would like some proof of his motivations. If there is one thing Sebastian did not seem in DA2 it was ambitious. If anything he was the opposite. Before his conversion to the Chantry he was just a younger son, good time boy, with no desire to do anything but enjoy himself. Then after his change of attitude, he became devoted to the Chantry and the idea of a life of peaceful seclusion and leading the Chant in services. He was ambitious for the Chantry but to go to war against Kirkwall would run contrary to that, unless Varric had categorically refused a request to rebuild the Chantry in Kirkwall. I suppose that would do it. However, he only marches on Kirkwall if Anders was spared by Hawke, which brings it back to being a specific vendetta against Hawke and Anders even though both of them are no longer there. Otherwise he simply helps with the relief effort as any devout Andrastrian should.
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Post by Catilina on May 7, 2017 17:13:09 GMT
Varric simply avoided answering routine correspondence from Sebastian but I'm sure Bran would have informed him if Sebastian was threatening an imminent invasion and I cannot believe that Varric would be so cavalier in his attitude as to not be concerned about it. The idea that Sebastian likes power so much he would invade Kirkwall is why I would like some proof of his motivations. If there is one thing Sebastian did not seem in DA2 it was ambitious. If anything he was the opposite. Before his conversion to the Chantry he was just a younger son, good time boy, with no desire to do anything but enjoy himself. Then after his change of attitude, he became devoted to the Chantry and the idea of a life of peaceful seclusion and leading the Chant in services. He was ambitious for the Chantry but to go to war against Kirkwall would run contrary to that, unless Varric had categorically refused a request to rebuild the Chantry in Kirkwall. I suppose that would do it. However, he only marches on Kirkwall if Anders was spared by Hawke, which brings it back to being a specific vendetta against Hawke and Anders even though both of them are no longer there. Otherwise he simply helps with the relief effort as any devout Andrastrian should. This just was a tip (not a benevolent, I admit), I think his motivation was simple personal revenge. But I can't agree, that as third born he just wanted to enjoy his life. He was envy and jealous, he admitted after his personal quest, how much he desires the throne. He was devoted toward the Chantry, and want to be a pious Andrastian Chantry-man, but he failed. He was never able to let go away his jealousy, I think, and when his family died, he saw the opportunity. He wasn't malevolent, he was only weak. This is why he refuses, if Hawke calls him to join the Fenynriel rescue team to the Fade. Who would be more suitable than a devoted Andrastian, who resists any temptation? But this isn't him. Varric is Andrastian, why would he refuse the Chantry's rebuild? That's quite unbelievable, that Hawke and Anders back to Kirkwall with Varric. (Even if Anders solved the city's Templar-problem... )
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Post by gervaise21 on May 7, 2017 21:38:26 GMT
Varric is Andrastrian but he is not a member of the Chantry and I'd say he doesn't really approve of it. Cassandra says as much, that he wouldn't so much as step foot inside a Chantry unless forced to. Same as my Hawke. Same as any of my PCs. Once I read Drakon's history in WoT2, I'd say that the religion peddled by the Chantry is Drakonism, not true Andrastrianism.
I agree that the idea Hawke would return to Kirkwall with Anders after Trespasser does seem rather far fetched, even if Varric is Viscount and Sebastian has been neutralised. Would the people of Kirkwall really be able to stomach Anders in their midst after all he did? Sometimes I feel the writers just don't think these things through or short change on the variations in the epilogue.
I still want to know what happened with Hawke in Weishauppt. At the beginning of Trespasser Varric says he hasn't heard from them (although it wouldn't be the first time he's lied about something like that) and then in the epilogue Hawke is back in Kirkwall with nothing more by way of explanation. I assume the reason is this is going to be dealt with in the next game but why not just have them back there when you talk to Varric at the Exalted Council. After all there is no real reason why Varric should want to conceal Hawke's return, or is there?
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Post by arvaarad on May 7, 2017 23:10:16 GMT
The idea that Sebastian likes power so much he would invade Kirkwall is why I would like some proof of his motivations. If there is one thing Sebastian did not seem in DA2 it was ambitious. Neither was Anders, before he was possessed by Justice. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but spirits generally prefer to possess powerful people. Even if Anders survives, he's a fugitive, without much ability to shape the world anymore. But here is the prince of Starkhaven, his outrage over the death of Elthina burning through the Fade. Justice, meanwhile, is more powerful than he's ever been, feeding off the Chantry explosion. If there was any time he'd have both the strength and the opportunity to escape to a new host, that would be it.
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Post by Catilina on May 7, 2017 23:20:07 GMT
The idea that Sebastian likes power so much he would invade Kirkwall is why I would like some proof of his motivations. If there is one thing Sebastian did not seem in DA2 it was ambitious. Neither was Anders, before he was possessed by Justice. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but spirits generally prefer to possess powerful people. Even if Anders survives, he's a fugitive, without much ability to shape the world anymore. But here is the prince of Starkhaven, his outrage over the death of Elthina burning through the Fade. Justice, meanwhile, is more powerful than he's ever been, feeding off the Chantry explosion. If there was any time he'd have both the strength and the opportunity to escape to a new host, that would be it. We speak about that Hawke didn't kill Anders. Justice still locked up in his body.
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Post by arvaarad on May 8, 2017 0:15:50 GMT
Neither was Anders, before he was possessed by Justice. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but spirits generally prefer to possess powerful people. Even if Anders survives, he's a fugitive, without much ability to shape the world anymore. But here is the prince of Starkhaven, his outrage over the death of Elthina burning through the Fade. Justice, meanwhile, is more powerful than he's ever been, feeding off the Chantry explosion. If there was any time he'd have both the strength and the opportunity to escape to a new host, that would be it. We speak about that Hawke didn't kill Anders. Justice still trapped in his body. Yep, that's the situation I'm referring to also. I don't buy that Justice is trapped. Considering that the Avvar make use of temporary possession, I'm guessing Justice just didn't know how to leave. Spirits don't have a great sense of direction, outside the Fade. That's why they often accidentally possess corpses and trees. With a bright enough path leading to another person (say, if that person was reaaaaally angry), and a power boost due to Anders' big act of revenge, Justice would have an easier time hopping bodies.
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Post by Catilina on May 8, 2017 0:23:59 GMT
We speak about that Hawke didn't kill Anders. Justice still trapped in his body. Yep, that's the situation I'm referring to also. I don't buy that Justice is trapped. Considering that the Avvar make use of temporary possession, I'm guessing Justice just didn't know how to leave. Spirits don't have a great sense of direction, outside the Fade. That's why they often accidentally possess corpses and trees. With a bright enough path leading to another person (say, if that person was reaaaaally angry), and a power boost due to Anders' big act of revenge, Justice would have an easier time hopping bodies. Interesting idea, assuming, that Justice turned into Vengeance demon. Justice, the spirit don't want to possess someone, who doesn't offer his body willingly. Sebastian has enough vindictiveness even from his own power. He doesn't need a demon: he has an army to satisfy his desire. His personal quest shows his weakness. But you're right, if Vengeance ever wants to possess someone, Sebastian would be the best choice for it. True: Sebastian doesn't have enough willpower for waiting three years, and spirits/demons don't know the time. I think Sebastian would die quickly as abomination.
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Post by arvaarad on May 8, 2017 2:29:08 GMT
Interesting idea, assuming, that Justice turned into Vengeance demon. Justice, the spirit don't want to possess someone, who doesn't offer his body willingly. Assuming Sebastian would be unwilling. This may be my real-life bias talking, but I think a devout Chantry boy is surprisingly likely to extend that invitation. If he's already sinning by not forgiving Anders, why not go all the way? The thing with black-and-white morality, is it considers even minor infractions as equal to really evil stuff. So people who follow such a system are more likely to skate straight to the extreme end of the spectrum. They see no difference, and the most extreme act gives them the most satisfaction. On the flip side, if they believe they're doing good, they can go into a very scary end-justifies-the-means mode where they believe nothing they're doing could possibly be wrong. Based on Sebastian's previous excesses (before joining the Chantry) he seems like exactly the kind of person who'd be prone to those wild swings between Very Good and Very Evil.
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Post by Catilina on May 8, 2017 8:23:53 GMT
Interesting idea, assuming, that Justice turned into Vengeance demon. Justice, the spirit don't want to possess someone, who doesn't offer his body willingly. Assuming Sebastian would be unwilling. This may be my real-life bias talking, but I think a devout Chantry boy is surprisingly likely to extend that invitation. If he's already sinning by not forgiving Anders, why not go all the way? The thing with black-and-white morality, is it considers even minor infractions as equal to really evil stuff. So people who follow such a system are more likely to skate straight to the extreme end of the spectrum. They see no difference, and the most extreme act gives them the most satisfaction. On the flip side, if they believe they're doing good, they can go into a very scary end-justifies-the-means mode where they believe nothing they're doing could possibly be wrong. Based on Sebastian's previous excesses (before joining the Chantry) he seems like exactly the kind of person who'd be prone to those wild swings between Very Good and Very Evil. Of course not excluded, I said, if Justice not spirit anymore. (As the Spirit of Justice, he probably wouldn't want Sebastian as host.) But if you saw the rivalry version, Anders mentioned, that Justice still with him (before battle, Templar side). You can explain, that Justice/Vengeance remained with him, because he now wants revenge for the Chantry, and this would understandable somehow, but: Sebastian still launches his army. So: Sebastian extremely vengeful and determined to revenge also without Vengeance. Don't get me wrong, if Vengeance is a demon, I just would be happy, if Anders would be free of him, but the chance for this quite low. For years, Anders's minds: thoughts, and emotions led him. He is already Anders, just as Anders is Justice/Vengeance. And as I said: Sebastian could not have survived for three years, not mentioned, he lived even two years after Corypheus died (Trespasser), and harassed Varric with his letters. This would be his revenge against Varric?
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 17:01:16 GMT
I think it would be easy to explain Sebastian's motivations to invade Kirkwall regardless of Anders' status. It's not explicitly stated in either game, but then, so much of his character was cut or not fully fleshed out.
In his companion quest where he discovers that the Harimanns killed his family due at least in part to demonic possession, he can see the underlying danger of Kirkwall's hellmouth. What we learn from the Band of Three subplot with Kirkwall having been designed as a convergence of blood magic and demonic energy means that the city itself can be a spiritual liability regardless of its inhabitants. So Sebastian sees the city as inherently morally corrupt and needs a strong guiding hand to remain in the light. Anders' actions, the injustices against the Gallows, the red lyrium sprouting everywhere in DAI shows that Kirkwall is in need of substantial reform and control, and he feels as a neighboring ruler and devout Andrastean it's his place to provide this.
I interpreted his relief work for Kirkwall if Anders wasn't spared as a more subtle type of invasion: his armies enter the city to provide aide and then opt not to leave. He plans on bringing in troops as well as workers to help. While he can justify bringing troops to protect his workers, it still raises concerns that he is bringing foreign troops into a city without clear consent from the local government. Him asking for Inquisition assistance means he either gets more troops to bolster his cause or political support for his work, so if he ends up taking power there would be fewer dissidents.
The text when he annexes Kirkwall is very telling as to his state of mind: "But Starkhaven's annexation of this notoriously troubled city has not proceeded as planned. The city's resistance opposes me. They forget that I do this for the good of the city and all the Free Marches. As a staunch ally of the Inquisition, I entreat support for this endeavor, that Kirkwall may be brought under control before more innocents are harmed."
He sees his actions as being for the moral good of the city, not as a power play. That Starkhaven would gain territory is incidental to how he is "saving" Kirkwall from itself.
In addition, if he rivalmances Hawke, he encourages her to become Viscount so that "the marriage between the Viscountess of Kirkwall and the Prince of Starkhaven will be the strongest alliance the Free Marches has ever seen." Even though he shows in the friendship path that he believes the mages are being oppressed wrongfully, when he aims to take back his throne, he's already considering consolidating Free Marches power and would rather ignore the mages' injustice in favor of worldly power.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 8, 2017 18:45:36 GMT
Now I see the quotation about why he is doing it his actions start to make sense. This is not vengeance any more but he genuinely sees himself as Kirkwall's saviour. May be he even see himself as a second Drakon. I always think Drakon's crusade was rather convenient in consolidating his power as well as eliminating any rival cults to Andraste but he may have genuinely believed in his "vision" from Andraste. This also only happens if he did not part on good terms with Hawke, which again suggests that it is not about gaining power per se. If his main aim was power, he would have marched on Kirkwall regardless, considering there is a power vacuum there once Hawke departs whichever way you leave it. However, he clearly has more confidence in the Kirkwall administration to protect the innocent if Hawke executed Anders, whichever side they supported in the final battle, and so in that case he merely assists Kirkwall but does not march against it.
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Post by Catilina on May 8, 2017 21:21:34 GMT
Now I see the quotation about why he is doing it his actions start to make sense. This is not vengeance any more but he genuinely sees himself as Kirkwall's saviour. May be he even see himself as a second Drakon. I always think Drakon's crusade was rather convenient in consolidating his power as well as eliminating any rival cults to Andraste but he may have genuinely believed in his "vision" from Andraste. This also only happens if he did not part on good terms with Hawke, which again suggests that it is not about gaining power per se. If his main aim was power, he would have marched on Kirkwall regardless, considering there is a power vacuum there once Hawke departs whichever way you leave it. However, he clearly has more confidence in the Kirkwall administration to protect the innocent if Hawke executed Anders, whichever side they supported in the final battle, and so in that case he merely assists Kirkwall but does not march against it. Oh, I think, Sebastian not that good guy. Perhaps, not that bad, as I see him, but I don't see his benevolence toward Kirkwall, if Hawke didn't kill Anders. And if he sees himself as a second Drakon, he became a madman. Sad fate.
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Post by saandrig on May 9, 2017 14:47:57 GMT
first female elf romance? Poor dwarf fans. Am I the only one who RP-ed a male Dwarf Noble that is obsessed about dwarven purity and considers Mardy as the only possible romance? Heh, it is even the only Warden that has a child without going near the "Morrigan".
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Post by gervaise21 on May 9, 2017 18:41:52 GMT
Oh saying that he sees himself as a second Drakon was not meant as a compliment, believe me. However, if that makes Sebastian a madman, then Drakon was a madman - actually something that I wouldn't dispute either. Everyone goes easy on Drakon because he was meant to be a saviour of the Anderfels in the 2nd Blight but apparently the only reason he went up that way in the first place is he was hoping to monopolise on Tevinter's weakness owing to the Blight to expand his borders (and spread his religion). Then he had a pang of conscience and turned aside to aid the Grey Wardens. Drakon was an opportunistic empire builder pure and simple, coupled with a conviction he was the chosen of Andraste. Sebastian is mild by comparison.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 9, 2017 18:44:19 GMT
Drakon doesn't strike me as a zealot, given that his best friend was an elf who worshipped the Creators.
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Post by Catilina on May 9, 2017 18:54:06 GMT
Oh saying that he sees himself as a second Drakon was not meant as a compliment, believe me. However, if that makes Sebastian a madman, then Drakon was a madman - actually something that I wouldn't dispute either. Everyone goes easy on Drakon because he was meant to be a saviour of the Anderfels in the 2nd Blight but apparently the only reason he went up that way in the first place is he was hoping to monopolise on Tevinter's weakness owing to the Blight to expand his borders (and spread his religion). Then he had a pang of conscience and turned aside to aid the Grey Wardens. Drakon was an opportunistic empire builder pure and simple, coupled with a conviction he was the chosen of Andraste. Sebastian is mild by comparison. No, Ceasar wasn't madman, but if I think, I'm same as Caesar, I'm probably a madman.
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Post by parsival on May 10, 2017 18:20:54 GMT
It's out, it's with us and I've read it on kindle!
Not much lore or any real surprises - it's mostly setting the scene. So far, so good, though.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 10, 2017 18:52:47 GMT
They white washed Drakon in JoH. You should read the write up on him in WoT2 and then you start to wonder how Ameridan ever respected him. Then again, Ameridan knew what Drakon was like. When he sees a Qunari Inquisitor he expresses surprise the Drakon had got that far (even more surprising since he should not know what a Qunari is) and in his memories he talks about his worry that Drakon wants to "simplify things" with regard to religion. The reason Drakon needed Ameridan to lead the Inquisition during the transition period to placing it under the Chantry umbrella was that people were obviously worried about his intentions given what he had previously done to his co-religionists and the Inquisition was the only independent force around that might have the clout to regulate him. Then they placed themselves under his control.
Also please note that the Canticle of Shartan did not feature as part of his Chant of Light initially but then in 1:8 Divine Justinia I asks some clerics to transcribe the Dalish oral tradition, probably because Drakon wanted to get the Dalish elves on side to help him with the Blight and it would seem that at least so far as Ameridan was concerned he succeeded. The game portrays the Dalish as the wrong thinking ones who were to blame for everything that subsequently occurred, when if you read the history of Drakon you will realise that their summing up of Drakon as "no better than Tevinter" was pretty much spot on. He was even the grandson of a Tevinter Altus, so effectively he was Tevinter (without the magic).
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