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Post by Catilina on Jul 3, 2017 0:11:45 GMT
Yes, the Warden can be evil or/and cruel. But s/he can be a good/not bad person too, who only kill people, when attacked by the people. I can accept, that an execution mostly retribution, not really justice. The borders are blurry. Most of the elves, who were almost sold, would consider his execution as justice. Anora considers as retribution. The Landsmeet not really protested against this act, so this was very lawful, if the Landsmeet is a lawful institution. The insecurity of thy post it just prove to me that there aren't strong arguments that you have to offer anymore.My previous post was beyond the player roleplaying,as regardless of how you roleplay the Warden has to kill people,and I've mentioned Haven specifically because not only you can't avoid the quest,but because there the Warden is the offender not the villagers. Once again as I've said killing Loghain for Justice it should be followed with killing the Warden and companions for Justice as well or else that steam into hypocrisy because you've deprived Justice of one.of.it's 3 main attributes. The nobles of the Landsmeet don't oppose the warden not because they have accepted the decisione,but because they lack the power to stop them. No strong arguments for what? Loghain was a traitor, a slave trader, and a murderer. Everyone, who think, that he deserved the death sentence (there was trial, the Landsmeet voted...), is right. And everyone, who think, that despite his crimes, he deserve a chance to redeem himself, is right as well. And yes: the execution mostly retribution. There's no pure justice in the world... The Warden must speak with this village's leader. When s/he tried to do that, the villages attacked him/her. Then who wouldn't lack the power to stop them? The Warden goes to the Landsmeet, because there are the Fereldan nobles, who have the power to decide on Ferelden's fate, and to elect the King. Only they have no power to stop this miserable wo/man and his/her mates and dog, if threaten Ferelden's law and order? Are you kidding, you not?
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Jul 3, 2017 18:14:41 GMT
Ultimate sacrifice ? It never happened to me, I have too much fun asking Loghain or Alistair to sleep with Morrigan But if there will be no 3rd option... well, i assume i will let die someone else. I am just too young and too pretty to die in that story !
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 5, 2017 16:18:23 GMT
Absolutely not! Loghain is a horror and deserves what he gets (usually death in my case). He betrayed his king in a power grab, turned on his own daughter and threatened the very existence of Thedas with his own hubris and greed. IMO irredeemable. Besides, I have use for Sten. Loghain is worthless. JMHO. I think you've totally twisted Loghain by making his motives to be correlated with greed but that's definetly not his case. Cailan killed himself when he decided to be on the frontlines despite the obvious fact that it isn't the job of a king to do something like that,and he was even warned by Loghain several times into not going there. I would say in fact most of the time people are unable to comprehend that what Loghain did in Ostagar not only it isn't a crime(as he had the authority to do that) but was overall a wise move as Solas pointed out in DAI.His other crimes aren't deserving of death because if they are punished with that than the same kind of Justice should be applied to Warden as well,who during the course of the game it surely kills more people than Loghain. As for his usefulness,well he is in fact more useful than Sten and I would dare to say than everyone else just like Alistair as he is usable to destroy the Archdemon and his soul and he is one of the only two NPC who can do that;It's an ending like the WC which it allows to finish the game by making Morrigan and Flemeth fail in their plan without have to use the ma in protagonist,overall I would say is the obejectively smartest ending and it can be achieved only with Loghain(or Alistair if one wants to get rid of him as well) I don't disagree with you, but, as I listen to his dialogue, his obsession with it "Not being a blight" and the "Orlesians" (although I understand it), combined with that toady Howe and that his own daughter, while quite a piece of work herself, frankly thinks he's nuts, I simply can't justify his moves. I don't disagree that he had the authority to do what he did at Ostegar, and that Cailan was a fool and a chaser of glory for glory's sake, and I do admit that his forces would probably have been slaughtered as well, HE ABANDONED HIS KING and his daughter's husband. He simply abandoned him and then took over the Fereldan by basically declaring himself king, usurping his own daughter (she's 30, not 13, she's an adult) and against the wishes of the other Houses when he has no valid claim to the throne at all (Anora can't even produce an heir and Cailan was being advised to ditch her for that reason alone). And let's not get started on his lying and homicidal behavior and the behavior that he allows of his right hand Howe and his family, let alone blaming the, what, tiny number of Wardens that were actually at Ostegar and putting a price on their heads! Reprehensible. A deluded bigot (allowing the slaughter and enslavement in the Alienage), arranging for the poisoning of an Arl, hiring assassins and on and on (yes, his proxy did much of it). His end game makes no sense. While he was once a hero, hero's fall all the time, and quickly. Nobody believes that the Wardens did what he accuses them of (even his own 2nd and his military 2nd). He knows what Howe has done and he knows what Howe's son has done. He has no regard for his daughter or her position (tenuous at best as she is unable to produce heirs) so his line ends with his death. You are right that he is one of best tanks in the game, that I'll give him, but his entire history is so against my own moral code that I cannot justify allowing him to live, what he did at Ostegar, his turning a blind eye to the actions and behavior of Howe, his treatment of the nobles, his inciting a civil war and, most of all, his blaming a tiny number of Wardens for the entire situation. It's just wrong. Yes, Cailan was an idiot, but Loghain is an obsessive and a psychopath. JMHO
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Post by Kei on Jul 7, 2017 23:48:01 GMT
The majority of the informations that you provided about Loghain in the previous post seems to be incorrect. Loghain didn't abandoned Cailain for fun,he did it because he was already out of his reach and it was impossibile to save him at that point (when the signal was fired too late by the Warden) and as a general he had the authority to retreat,so there is no crime. Loghain also didn't declared himself a king but a regent,and he was backed up by the sovereign Queen,so he also had authority for that title. The civil war was started by Loghain as well as several banns(which aren't so good as you think they are) who wanted to take control of the crown after Cailan's death,and many of them aspired to become king,and so the civil war of Ferelden wasn't just a simple and singular war of two sides (between Loghain and the Banns) but was a war of everyone vs everyone to obtain the power of the throne(kinda like GoT) and it was surely more complicated than how you've painted it. He did well in using Arle Howe as a resource rather than oppose him thus creating a new dangerous enemy for himself(that probably he would have never been able to defeat),if Howe wouldn't have been under Loghain he probably would have caused even more bloodsheed in the civil war with some other Bann. The wardens were highly mistrusted by many nobles after what they did against Arland,it wasn't only Loghain who mistrusted them. As others have said,Loghain crimes(slavery,poisoning of the Arl,ecc..)are litterally nothing compared to the genocide made by the Warden.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 7, 2017 23:55:22 GMT
The majority of the informations that you provided about Loghain in the previous post seems to be incorrect. Loghain didn't abandoned Cailain for fun,he did it because he was already out of his reach and it was impossibile to save him at that point (when the signal was fired) and as a general he had the authority to retreat,so there is no crime. Loghain also didn't declared himself a king but regent that was backedup by the sovereign Queen,so he also had authority for that. The civil wsr was started by all the banns who wanted to take control of the crown after Cailan's death there were a lot of them who aspired to become king,and so the civile wsr of Ferelden wasn't just a war between Loghain and the Banns but was a war of everyone vs everyone and it was surely more complicated than how you've painted it. He did well in using Arle Howe as a resource rather than.oppose him this creating a new dangerous enemy for himself,if Howe wouldn't have been under Loghain he probably would have caused even more bloodsheed in the civile war with some other Bann. As others have said,Loghain crimes(slavery,poisoning of the Arle,ecc..)are litterally nothing compared to the genocide made by the Warden. So: Loghain was a saint. (To sell his people is nothing. Not worth mentioning either.) But: the warden had the autority to behead this saint. Or to spare him. No crime. (A serious genocide to defend himself against a bunch of idiot/misled but fanatic cultists... just as Hawke, when defended himself against Petrice's fanatic mob)
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Post by Kei on Jul 8, 2017 0:06:35 GMT
So: Loghain was a saint. (To sell his people is nothing. Not worth mentioning either.) But: the warden had the autority to behead this saint. Or to spare him. No crime. (A serious genocide to defend himself against a bunch of idiot/misled but fanatic cultists... just as Hawke, when defended him against Petrice's mob) I see your arguments are rather poor(as they usually are)in which you used as a response words that cannot be found within the quoted post. I don't remember to have declared Loghain a saint(in fact I didn't) and Warden doesn't have any legal authority to kill anyone in the Landsmeet,in fact wardens in general don't have any authority at all beyond the right of conscription. Warden and party also didn't defended themselves in Heaven because there they were the invaders not the population who lived there.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 8, 2017 0:15:58 GMT
I see your arguments are rather poor(as they usually are)in which you used as a response words that cannot be found within the quoted post. I don't remember to have declared Loghain a saint(in fact I didn't) and Warden doesn't have any legal authority to kill anyone in the Landsmeet,in fact wardens in general don't have the authority to kill nobles wardens don't have any authority at all beyond the right of conscription. Warden and party also didn't defended themselves in Heaven because there they were the invaderà not the population who lived there. They did not attack the inhabitants, just wanted to talk with their leader. You said: "no crime, no crime... etc" the saint was an exaggeration, but what you said, was also a distortion. In fact, Loghain didn't defend Ferelden, only himself. Warden has authority. There was a trial. The trial was the Landsmeet.
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Post by Kei on Jul 8, 2017 0:28:30 GMT
They did not attack the inhabitants, just wanted to talk with their leader. You said: "no crime, no crime... etc" the saint was an exaggeration, but what you said, was also a distortion. In fact, Loghain didn't defend Ferelden, only himself. Warden has authority. There was a trial. The trial was the Landsmeet. Regardless of how much misinformation you would like to spread about the events of Heaven in order to condone the actions of Warden and company,ultimately you can't alter the truth.Warden started the genocide by entering in the curch of the village and by starting to kill their priest once that the priest was able to discover that warden was ally of Eamon and Genitivi. Your second point is also invalid,completely invalid as the Landsmeet wasn't a trial started to decide Loghain's fate but was a reunion of the nobles called by Eamon to put a ruler on the throne. Don't mistake what (your)Warden and Alistair wants with what the Landsmeet was about.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 8, 2017 0:38:38 GMT
Regardless of how much misinformation you would like to spread about the events of Heaven in order to condone the actions of Warden and company,ultimately you can't alter the truth.Warden started the genocide by entering in the curch of the village and by starting to kill their priest once that the priest was able to discover that warden was ally of Eamon and Genitivi. Your second point is also invalid,completely invalid as the Landsmeet wasn't a trial started to decide Loghain's fate but was a reunion of the nobles called by Eamon to put a ruler on the throne. Don't mistake what (your)Warden and Alistair wants with what the Landsmeet was about. Okay, I got it. MY Warden and Alistair were the main villains in the Game. They killed Kenny as well.
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Post by Prince on Jul 8, 2017 0:46:20 GMT
Okay, I got it. MY Warden and Alistair were the main villains in the Game. They killed Kenny as well.
At least finally you've got it. Between all the people that they killed and the world that they gambled,Loghain's level of evil is amateurish in comparision.
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 10, 2017 15:26:05 GMT
The majority of the informations that you provided about Loghain in the previous post seems to be incorrect. Loghain didn't abandoned Cailain for fun,he did it because he was already out of his reach and it was impossibile to save him at that point (when the signal was fired too late by the Warden) and as a general he had the authority to retreat,so there is no crime. Loghain also didn't declared himself a king but a regent,and he was backed up by the sovereign Queen,so he also had authority for that title. The civil war was started by Loghain as well as several banns(which aren't so good as you think they are) who wanted to take control of the crown after Cailan's death,and many of them aspired to become king,and so the civil war of Ferelden wasn't just a simple and singular war of two sides (between Loghain and the Banns) but was a war of everyone vs everyone to obtain the power of the throne(kinda like GoT) and it was surely more complicated than how you've painted it. He did well in using Arle Howe as a resource rather than oppose him thus creating a new dangerous enemy for himself(that probably he would have never been able to defeat),if Howe wouldn't have been under Loghain he probably would have caused even more bloodsheed in the civil war with some other Bann. The wardens were highly mistrusted by many nobles after what they did against Arland,it wasn't only Loghain who mistrusted them. As others have said,Loghain crimes(slavery,poisoning of the Arl,ecc..)are litterally nothing compared to the genocide made by the Warden. But, of course, it's perfectly fine to hold your own daughter prisoner and, even at her admission, threaten her life and to condone both the unnecessary and wanton torture and abuse of individuals (including the nobility and templars) as well as sell your own people in to slavery to fund your war effort. As to your supposition that the nobility still distrusts the Wardens after what they did to Arland (hundreds of years previously) is laughable, particularly since there were a number of noble houses that actually supported the Dredens AND Arland was known historically as a despot. Funny how a good 1/2 of the nobility and a large number of the actual troops, including templar and chantry, don't actually believe that the Wardens had anything to do with King Cailan's death. Even his 2nd in command readily admits that Loghain has gone insane. Funny that. And, while admittedly, the beacon was lit somewhat late, isn't it funny how Duncan, as he is about to be killed, looks up at it and is obviously despairs that there was no response. Even the cutaway of Loghain and his troops makes it clear that were certainly in a position to assist. Even Cauthrien questioned the decision. Yes, he only declared himself "Regent", but, do you know what a "Regent" is? It is the monarch in everything except name and basically declaring his own daughter incompetent.
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Post by Kei on Jul 11, 2017 13:50:10 GMT
[skip for the sake of space] -The fact that Duncan stare at the beacon doesn't suggest anything at all,he doesn't say anything in that scene,he just realized that the Beacon was lighted in that very moment when Cailan was killed by the Ogre,there are no subtle implications in the scene other than what you've created in your own mind. -Anora was imprisoned by Arle Howe not Loghain,in fact you can see Anora during the first half of the game speaking often with Loghain during cutscenes,it was only later that she was imprisoned into the Estate by Rendon Howe,when the Arle managed to increase his own powers even further in Denerim to the point were he became in fact more powerful than Loghain in the city.If and only if the warden helps Anora into becoming Queen she decide to help the Warden at the Landsmeet by lying about that and accusing Loghain of having personally imprisoned her,when it was Rendon Howe as the same Anora said when you go free her for the first time. -Majority of the nobles distrusted the Wardens at the Landsmeet specifically because of Arland,the fact that it happened in the past doesn't change anything at all. During the Landsmeet you need the influence of Arle Eamon to let the nobles to even listen to the Wardens and if you lose the debate with Logahin they will in fact support him because they distrust wardens.In Denerim there are several nobles who distrust wardens so much that they will not hesitate at trying to kill them on sight,and in fact is even what one of them tries to do. In order to gain the favor of Alfstanna as well as the other noble in the Tavern you need to do personal favor to them or they will vote for Loghain. -Once again the nobles imprisoned in Denerim were all prisoners of Rendon Howe,who removed them from power to increase it's own,the people captured By Loghain in person was just Riordan.The Banns imprisoned also were at war with Rendon Howe since Loghain defeated them he decided to imprison them. -I see you just as Catiline used the same arguement of the elves of the Alienage sold as slaves without even realizing that you both are talking about power rather than Justice. yes I've conceded the fact that it is a crime under the law of Ferelden to sold people as slaves, just as I've said that Warden is guilty of genocide in Haven,tell me which one is worse? Why Loghain has to die for slavery support but Warden has to live over a genocide? Not to mention the fact that warden can in fact decide to sell on slavery those people or sacrifce them if they want,but the game doesn't punish that choice at all,on the contrary it evengive a little extra(not much but it still allows warden to either avoid the fight with the magister or to add constitution point). As you can see there is no justice about it either, since the Warden can do the same without being punished for it. What you have is Loghain lacking the power to escape Justice and Warden having the power to do so,this isn't an arguemnt of Justice anymore this is an arguemnt of power or lack tehreof to evade Justice. -Last point,A regent is no King no matter how much you would like to swap the titles.
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 11, 2017 15:04:25 GMT
-The fact that Duncan stare at the beacon doesn't suggest anything at all,he doesn't say anything in that scene,he just realized that the Beacon was lighted in that very moment when Cailan was killed by the Ogre,there are no subtle implications in the scene other than what you've created in your own mind. -Anora was imprisoned by Arle Howe not Loghain,in fact you can see Anora during the first half of the game speaking often with Loghain during cutscenes,it was only later that she was imprisoned into the Estate by Rendon Howe,when the Arle managed to increase his own powers even further in Denerim to the point were he became in fact more powerful than Loghain in the city.If and only if the warden helps Anora into becoming Queen she decide to help the Warden at the Landsmeet by lying about that and accusing Loghain of having personally imprisoned her,when it was Rendon Howe as the same Anora said when you go free her for the first time. -Majority of the nobles distrusted the Wardens at the Landsmeet specifically because of Arland,the fact that it happened in the past doesn't change anything at all. During the Landsmeet you need the influence of Arle Eamon to let the nobles to even listen to the Wardens and if you lose the debate with Logahin they will in fact support him because they distrust wardens.In Denerim there are several nobles who distrust wardens so much that they will not hesitate at trying to kill them on sight,and in fact is even what one of them tries to do. In order to gain the favor of Alfstanna as well as the other noble in the Tavern you need to do personal favor to them or they will vote for Loghain. -Once again the nobles imprisoned in Denerim were all prisoners of Rendon Howe,who removed them from power to increase it's own,the people captured By Loghain in person was just Riordan.The Banns imprisoned also were at war with Rendon Howe since Loghain defeated them he decided to imprison them. -I see you just as Catiline used the same arguement of the elves of the Alienage sold as slaves without even realizing that you both are talking about power rather than Justice. yes I've conceded the fact that it is a crime under the law of Ferelden to sold people as slaves, just as I've said that Warden is guilty of genocide in Haven,tell me which one is worse? Why Loghain has to die for slavery support but Warden has to live over a genocide? Not to mention the fact that warden can in fact decide to sell on slavery those people or sacrifce them if they want,but the game doesn't punish that choice at all,on the contrary it evengive a little extra(not much but it still allows warden to either avoid the fight with the magister or to add constitution point). As you can see there is no justice about it either, since the Warden can do the same without being punished for it. What you have is Loghain lacking the power to escape Justice and Warden having the power to do so,this isn't an arguemnt of Justice anymore this is an arguemnt of power or lack tehreof to evade Justice. -Last point,A regent is no King no matter how much you would like to swap the titles. I do not think that we are playing the same game or listening to the same dialogue. Feel free to maintain you position, but, as I disagree with almost everything you have said, I am stepping out of this argument. Given my knowledge of the lore and, by paying strict attention to and listening to every piece of dialogue available on my many playthroughs and by participating in every conversation option available, I, respectfully disagree with your suppositions. Thank you for your attention.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 13, 2017 16:37:26 GMT
The strategy at Ostagar was Loghain's own plan and his men were meant to be securing the tower. Even if Loghain didn't intend to betray Cailan from the start (and it's strongly implied that he did - "Yes Cailan... a glorious day for us all..."), he's fully to blame for what happened.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 13, 2017 19:48:23 GMT
The strategy at Ostagar was Loghain's own plan and his men were meant to be securing the tower. Even if Loghain didn't intend to betray Cailan from the start (and it's strongly implied that he did - "Yes Cailan... a glorious day for us all..."), he's fully to blame for what happened. That was a red herring, along with his stereotypical evil smirk when leaving with his troops. The player is supposed to see him as evil at that point.
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Post by Domakir on Jul 13, 2017 19:49:39 GMT
he's fully to blame for what happened. I disagree, both Cailan and Loghain are to blame. In fact, I would say Cailan is more to blame than Loghain. If he would have stayed behind maybe he would have survived and retreated with Loghain from a battle that was clearly lost since the beginning. However he just wanted glory fighting side by side with the grey wardens when actually, and I think this was said before, a king must never be in the front lines. Loghain was not a saint in Ostagar but Cailan's irresponsibility was way worse.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 13, 2017 20:33:07 GMT
Both were wrong. But yes, Loghain's plan was. He knew what he going to do, and he has lied Cailan, who counted with his support.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 14, 2017 13:36:30 GMT
I've conceded the fact that it is a crime under the law of Ferelden to sold people as slaves, just as I've said that Warden is guilty of genocide in Haven,tell me which one is worse? Why Loghain has to die for slavery support but Warden has to live over a genocide? Because the dragon cultists don't give you that option. You can't reason with them and find a peaceful solution that doesn't harm your current goal.
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Post by Domakir on Jul 14, 2017 22:36:58 GMT
Both were wrong. But yes, Loghain's plan was. He knew what he going to do, and he has lied Cailan, who counted with his support. I suppose it would have been too easy to say 'Hey Cailan, if things get too bad I'll retreat with my men to save as many lives as possible. By the way, I hate you'. I wonder if Loghain planed to betray Cailan before the battle or if it was a decision he quickly made at that moment.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 14, 2017 22:45:58 GMT
Both were wrong. But yes, Loghain's plan was. He knew what he going to do, and he has lied Cailan, who counted with his support. I suppose it would have been too easy to say 'Hey Cailan, if things get too bad I'll retreat with my men to save as many lives as possible. By the way, I hate you'. I wonder if Loghain planed to betray Cailan before the battle or if it was a decision he quickly made at that moment. That's the question. If I remember correctly, he never regretted this decision. So, perhaps was a tactical retreat, but perhaps in the background, he planned, because of Cailan's Orlais connection perhaps?
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Post by Iddy on Jul 17, 2017 12:29:05 GMT
I didn't quite understood the OP contention;is it about the cowardice of using others to kill the AD or is it about the "supposed" loss of glory that should happen (in his mind) as a result of doing that? Well in the first case I would like to say that as a player who did the US I've never felt the "courage" of the act,mostly because it wasn't me there,it was a non-existent virtual avatar "killing" a non-existent monster....so what a great form of bravery it was on my part doing the US.....in the worm of my house..... As for the second contention,well until now nobody know who killed the greatest Old God Dumat or Toth and nobody care about Corin either......because nobody know about the soul jump ability of the AD....so it shouldn't be a surprise that the people will not care at all about something they don't even know,and even if they knew I'm sure they wouldn't care the same,that's simply what most people do,that's how life work in indifference.Someone may be remembered for some time but then everything will just be a matter of history before to meet the final oblivion. You are wrong in every single word of this. It is not about the player and it is not about glory.
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Post by oyabun on Jul 20, 2017 1:29:23 GMT
You are wrong in every single word of this. It is not about the player and it is not about glory. Then I don't understand what the question is about? As i said it can't be cowardice because you're following up the rules of the GW in case of the Warden Commander ending,or you are just allowing atonment in case of Redemption ending,and they both don't cause glory loss because on top of the sacrifice being a secret,there is also the fact that the blight in this game didn't even begun as it was confined within the borders of an isolated country. You can't expect for the people in Thedas to know HoF either way,majority of them didn't even heard about the blight of Ferelden,not to mention how from a gaming marketing perspective how this character doesn't even have a true official name to be adressed with.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 20, 2017 12:25:29 GMT
You are wrong in every single word of this. It is not about the player and it is not about glory. Then I don't understand what the question is about? As i said it can't be cowardice because you're following up the rules of the GW in case of the Warden Commander ending,or you are just allowing atonment in case of Redemption ending,and they both don't cause glory loss because on top of the sacrifice being a secret,there is also the fact that the blight in this game didn't even begun as it was confined within the borders of an isolated country. You can't expect for the people in Thedas to know HoF either way,majority of them didn't even heard about the blight of Ferelden,not to mention how from a gaming marketing perspective how this character doesn't even have a true official name to be adressed with. It is about personal honor loss. Perhaps the morally good option is to take the blow yourself rather than letting another do it. But since you brought it up, the HoF is far from obscurity. S/He is mentioned by Tallis in DA2, Divine Justinia in the Haven codex and Empress Celene in the Masked Empire.
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Post by oyabun on Jul 20, 2017 18:41:19 GMT
It is about personal honor loss. Perhaps the morally good option is to take the blow yourself rather than letting another do it. But since you brought it up, the HoF is far from obscurity. S/He is mentioned by Tallis in DA2, Divine Justinia in the Haven codex and Empress Celene in the Masked Empire. What does that even mean exactly? Why "honor" is lost because one isn't interested in delivering a stab to a being?Once again even the sequels support my thesis as there isn't any difference in terms of popularity among the endings,the differences concern only the fate of such being. The people that you mentioned are all well educated people and/or spies ,they aren't the mass of Orlais.The average citizen of Orlais and Thedas doesn't know the HoF ,there Aldo info in DAI that says many Orlesians don't even believe in the 5th blight.
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Post by Kei on Jul 20, 2017 18:51:34 GMT
I think he equates popularity and honor based on the numbers of Dragons killed(because at the end of the day that's what an AD shape is). By that kind of logic however HoF is eclipsed by the Inquisitor who can kill something like 11-12 different high dragons,one which is semi divine like the old god of DAO,and can even tame a dragon.
But I don't like to measure popularity based on numbers of Dragons killed,that's too close to Oghren way of thinking.Beside warden can in fact completly defeat the AD on solo and just let another destroy his soul when the dragon was rendered to impotency,that doesn't mean however that they have killed it,what they did was just finish a defeated opponent,kinda like if warden defeat Loghain but Alistair kills it,that still doesn't mean that Alistair defeated him.
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