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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 17, 2017 21:13:35 GMT
This is highly recommended reading (thanks to Hrungr for posting the link in the Twitter thread): www.pcgamer.com/what-does-the-future-hold-for-rpgs/?utm_content=buffer76da4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer-pcgamertwThe contents of the article echo many of the things that have been said here in the forums about dissatisfaction with DAI in particular and WRPGs in general, and how that could be turned around in future RPGs. Some choice excerpts, but I recommend reading the whole article:
Imagine a roleplaying game in which you aren’t Champion of the Realm, but a homely bystander such as an innkeeper or a carpenter’s apprentice. Imagine an RPG in which you aren’t able to hand-craft your own posse of adventurers, fussing over everything from eye colour to movement modifiers, but must do your best with the character or characters you’re given. Imagine an RPG in which you aren’t there to save the world but simply find your way through it, as cleverly as you can. If there’s a common theme to my discussions with developers about the future of roleplaying games, it’s that the old “pick your stats, level up by killing stuff, decide the fate of the universe” premise is in sore need of an overhaul, or at least some decent alternatives. ... “There have been dozens of attempts to reinvent the RPG story, but the heart of the gameplay is always bodding from one combat to the next, gathering rewards that make you better at combat,” says Alexis Kennedy, ... Katherine Holden, a Cumbria based manga artist and designer whose projects include the RPG series Vacant Sky ... said, “I’m sure that’ll be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like all these ‘create your own character, run around doing busywork in a sandbox and meet NPCs who all fall over themselves to give you power and authority’ games get a little tiresome after a while.” Holden points to 2015’s incredibly accomplished but slightly uninspiring Dragon Age: Inquisition as evidence of this stagnation. “Inquisition wasn’t bad, but it was such a shallow, toothless game compared to Dragon Age II, which featured deeply flawed, yet likeable characters and also a very timely story about refugees, prejudice and religious tension.” ... The Witcher 3 ... game may be a sprawling epic, but it’s an epic composed of brilliantly directed moments—tiny decisions that add up to more than their sum. “I think that game has set a new standard for making all quests dramatically meaningful,” notes Tyler Sigman. “It’s amazing how much care and attention seems to have gone into every single sidequest.”
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 17, 2017 21:20:43 GMT
I agree on some points, but I can't fully fault Bioware for going back to the save the world premise after the hell they received about Hawke not being heroic enough.
I do hope they take Dragon Age down that path again though.
Also, I like my combat progression thank you very much, though it would be nice if the gameplay branched out a bit.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Feb 17, 2017 21:24:36 GMT
I'm so happy they're going away from DA:I's way of doing RPG. Don't get me wrong! I liked it. I enjoyed it. But DA2 is very special to me, for several reasons. And since I'm a fan of Fallen London, I have some confidence that the game's worldbuilding and tone will go in an interesting direction. I'm ready, freddy.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 17, 2017 21:25:56 GMT
I agree on some points, but I can't fully fault Bioware for going back to the save the world premise after the hell they received about Hawke not being heroic enough. I do hope they take Dragon Age down that path again though. Also, I like my combat progression thank you very much, though it would be nice if the gameplay branched out a bit. Yeah, I think established franchises shouldn't drift too far from the core their fans are used to. DA4 without an emphasis on combat will make no sense. But new RPGs should explore these non-combat alternative "loops", as Kennedy put it. We'll see what CDPR does with Cyberpunk 2077. They're the trend setter, according to the article.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Feb 17, 2017 21:30:25 GMT
I like the comparison between DA2 and DAI. Savior of the World or anti-hero? I think there's room multiple approaches to RPGs. Developers will repeat winning formulas until they grow stale (and sales drop) and then they'll be compelled to try something new.
Just curious, the DA universe is the only real RPG I've done. Prior to that, first person shooters, recycled Call of Duty, etc. Is the Witcher series a fantasy RPG? Or more linear adventure game?
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Post by Awkward Octopus on Feb 18, 2017 1:19:11 GMT
I am 100% all about more games doing different things, and I absolutely agree with the core thing that a lot of the interviewees were touching on - more depth, even if at the expense of breadth.
That said, I haven't played The Witcher because I can't bring myself to have even a tiny bit of desire to play Mr. Gravely-Voice McStubbly angsty white dude. That line they talk about between pre-determined character and more freedom of character creation and choice has the drawback that sometimes, what might be a great game is going to be ignored because the "set" part is super not interesting to me.
I like DA2, I thought that was a better example of finding a balance between the two. Or rather, I prefer the place on that continuum that they landed on.
Also, this:
“I really like how, in Japanese RPGs, you don’t make a character—you are given a role to play,” says Kate Holden. “Whether you like it or not, that’s the person you’re playing and you need to empathise with that to get the most out of the game.”
...Is one reason why I haven't played a JRPG in years. It is absolutely a good thing that there are these types of games, but I'm not into the idea of encouraging that over more player agency and character creation. I mean, I loved action-adventure platformers when they were still a major thing, and those were always set protagonists, so it's not like I hate the idea. But when I'm playing an RPG? I prefer to make my own character, no question.
(They kind of really picked on DA:I, though, didn't they?)
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 18, 2017 1:56:38 GMT
The WHOLE POINT of RPGs for me is making my own character. If I can't do that I might as well go play some other game instead - which is why I'm not interested in The Witcher or most JRPGs.
I'd like to see more cRPGs that don't focus on combat, but more fixed protagonists sounds like the opposite of fun to me.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 18, 2017 2:33:25 GMT
Just curious, the DA universe is the only real RPG I've done. Prior to that, first person shooters, recycled Call of Duty, etc. Is the Witcher series a fantasy RPG? Or more linear adventure game? In my opinion, it's a stretch to call any of the Witcher games "RPG". Maybe Action-RPG, but that just makes things less clear. It's not linear at all, but like a linear adventure game (Tomb Raider, Uncharted, etc.), you play a specific character, Geralt of Rivia. You don't get to change anything about him except the clothes he wears (and with mods, how he cuts his hair and shaves his face ... ). This is why calling the Witcher games "RPG" is a stretch, there's no character customization and thus, no roleplaying. But that said, the reason the Witcher comes up in these discussions is because the Witcher devs did a helluva job on quest and side-quest design and writing. Really outstanding in Witcher 2, which is the only one I finished. I couldn't finish Witcher 3, it was too much of a grind. Which is ironic, because apparently TW3 has even better quest design and depth than TW2. So if you take just the character from a linear adventure game, like Lara Croft or Nathan Drake, and stick that character is a rich open world (TW3 was open, the others were only semi-open world) with deep and interesting non-linear quests and side-quests and fully realized characters -- the trolls in TW2 are some of my favorite NPCs of all time -- that's the Witcher series.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 18, 2017 5:30:28 GMT
Extra Credits had a thought-provoking video on the Witcher 3's romantic dilemma, which also touches on "blank slate" protagonists vs (more) "defined" and the kinds of stories you can tell with them. Whether you agree or not, it's well worth a watch (like, pretty much everything from Extra Credits). Of the 3 games, Hawke was my favorite protagonist. Obviously, not as defined a character as Geralt, but certainly a more defined character than either the Warden or the Inquisitor. And I think Hawke straddles that kind of middle ground between the two extremes which I certainly wouldn't mind seeing again. But back to the OT... "Imagine an RPG in which you aren’t there to save the world but simply find your way through it, as cleverly as you can."- I remember pitching this very idea in another thread. Don't get me wrong, I love the save the world style games, but I think there is also room for smaller, more grounded stories told in the DA setting where you're not the hero in the traditional AAA RPG sense. “There have been dozens of attempts to reinvent the RPG story, but the heart of the gameplay is always bodding from one combat to the next, gathering rewards that make you better at combat,” says Alexis Kennedy,- For the big tent-pole games in DA, I certainly wouldn't want combat to go away. If anything, I'd want the visceral intensity of the game's combat to go up. If the devs could somehow elicit the same level of excitement one might get from playing Doom in DA's combat... - That said, I think we need more fun & interesting activities to do outside of combat. That, and take a few more chances in quest design. Subvert our expectations every now and again.
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Post by talyn82 on Feb 18, 2017 5:58:32 GMT
I personally don't like playing as a set protagonist, which is why I never got into the Witcher games. I found Geralt to be dull and boring. He has no emotion in his voice, he's just monotone. I like games like the Elder Scrolls series where I can customize my character. Which is why I also enjoy the Dragon Age series because I can customize my character there as well, though the series sets you on a chosen path. It's not as open as the Elder Scrolls, where you can rp anything you want, plus mods make the games more customizable. Even with all that said I always go back to BioWare's rpg's. From Baldur's Gate to DAI, I love how deep the npc's are, like the companions. My favorite part of BW games is the banter between the companions, and how I get to really know them as the game progresses. I like the no class and no attributes path Bethesda took with Skyrim, it allows a lot of rp choices. Well that's my take.
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Post by fylimar on Feb 18, 2017 6:51:52 GMT
I am 100% all about more games doing different things, and I absolutely agree with the core thing that a lot of the interviewees were touching on - more depth, even if at the expense of breadth. That said, I haven't played The Witcher because I can't bring myself to have even a tiny bit of desire to play Mr. Gravely-Voice McStubbly angsty white dude. That line they talk about between pre-determined character and more freedom of character creation and choice has the drawback that sometimes, what might be a great game is going to be ignored because the "set" part is super not interesting to me. I like DA2, I thought that was a better example of finding a balance between the two. Or rather, I prefer the place on that continuum that they landed on. Also, this: “I really like how, in Japanese RPGs, you don’t make a character—you are given a role to play,” says Kate Holden. “Whether you like it or not, that’s the person you’re playing and you need to empathise with that to get the most out of the game.” ...Is one reason why I haven't played a JRPG in years. It is absolutely a good thing that there are these types of games, but I'm not into the idea of encouraging that over more player agency and character creation. I mean, I loved action-adventure platformers when they were still a major thing, and those were always set protagonists, so it's not like I hate the idea. But when I'm playing an RPG? I prefer to make my own character, no question. (They kind of really picked on DA:I, though, didn't they?) This. I have tried to play The Witcher, but I never finished it. I like to make my own character and don't want to play with a set protagonist. Even in Dishonoured 2 you can at least decide between 2 characters. I like the idea of a normal person, who just has to survive a different world and not being the big world saving hero. And I would like to see more diversity in getting a task done, maybe by talking you out of a fight more often or sneaking around some obstacle or tricking your opponent. Those two points, I support wholeheartedly, but I like the diversity of character creation and background.
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Post by PCthug on Feb 18, 2017 8:51:11 GMT
I guess what drives me nuts about a set protagonist is that companies are often not willing to take many chances with them. For every one set protagonist that's female, there are fifty that are male. How many aren't straight? Or white?
Maybe it's trivial to some people, but being able to customize a character's gender, orientation, race, and personality (ie. not always being a gruff antihero) is what attracted me to Bioware's games in the first place.
But, moving on...DA2 is my favorite in the series, as well. I liked that Hawke was fairly ordinary, making their way in Kirkwall and that the companions had lives of their own. The main story quests feel a lot meatier than DA:I. The side quests are much more interesting and multi-layered. Some parts didn't work for me (the multi year jumps between acts, for one) but overall, I get the most enjoyment out of it.
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Post by javeart on Feb 18, 2017 9:58:05 GMT
I'm all for variety, I think it's good that there are games where not everything is about combat, that there are games where you play a set PC and that there are games where not everything is about saving the world. That said, out of those things, the only one that I want in future DA games are the "smaller" stories, I love DA2 other than that, I just love the focus on combat and the customizable PC (I'd rather have a PC like Hawke than one like the Inquisitor, but what I really don't want is a PC like Geralt )
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Post by Reznore on Feb 18, 2017 11:48:04 GMT
First I don't know what those people are talking about when they say lack of RPGs... There's Torment coming out this month, next month MEA, and in 2018 there's Pillars of Eternity too.
Second , in Skyrim you could mod your games and play a non heroic peasent if you felt like it. I played the lamest rogue ever.Skyrim the game where you can live non scripted adventure and oh dear you can fail and the game keep on...
Third if you really really want to do some mundane thing , there's the Sims , hell there's even a medieval sims vaguely RPG with quests. Also I believe Fable did that too.
Basically this article is somekind of strange brainstorming about making a revolution in RPGs in theory.Any of the people talking actually created a RPGs anyway?
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Post by Awkward Octopus on Feb 18, 2017 12:59:25 GMT
What's interesting is that I completely agree with that Extra Credits video Hrungr posted. I think it's true that, in order to be able to craft more nuanced and interesting dilemmas, you kind of can't have a blank slate character. Even a nominally defined character like the Inquisitor makes that pretty much impossible. That said, the example given in The Witcher is just so... not a thing that makes me want to play it. I mean, boo hoo, poor guy has to choose between two conventionally attractive women, must be tough to be him. But, if someone made an in-depth RPG with, say, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil as the protagonist, I would jump on that in half a second and love it. She certainly has a defined personality and backstory and loved ones, but it's much more in line with a character I'd want to play.
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Post by eriador117 on Feb 18, 2017 13:47:13 GMT
DA2 is my favourite game ever so I suppose I am not that averse to a predefined character, but I also liked that you had options in DA1 regarding your Inquisitor. I like the idea that there might be more content outside of combat/battle, which is really the worst part of an RPG for me. I don't want a modern RPG set in our world either, I like fantasy, as my groaning bookshelves can testify, and I will veer towards fantasy games, not modern ones.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 18, 2017 15:45:40 GMT
I like to have some control over the character I am playing. Even DA2 had that to some extent since you could choose your gender, class and appearance but being confined to one race and family background was a bit disappointing after Origins. The problem with DAI is that you never had that connection with your place of origin, except through the faceless war table missions. You also got dropped into the plot rather abruptly. It would probably have worked better if you had spent some introductory time walking around the Conclave and talking with people, or even just hanging out in the tavern where Varric and Solas are shown to have been. This is what made the PC seem disconnected with the wider world.
The DAO introductory stories are still my favourite beginning to an RPG simply because they do allow you to understand the background you have chosen and how that fits with the wider world. It was great that they took the trouble to do this for all the races and even give your alternative backgrounds within those races. I am hopeful that they do something similar in the next game. Alternatively, if that is thought too complicated, they give us one background, such as slave in a Magisters household, that could apply to every race and then craft a backstory and family around that.
I certainly do not want the flexibility for character creation sacrificed to give just one pre-made option as the article suggests. The closest I would be willing to go would be a Shepard like character where you at least choose your gender, place of origin and recent career and these choices are then reflected in future encounters and conversations or what people say about you.
As I understand the plot of ordinary person dealing with a local situation versus chosen one saving the world scenario, I recall that on another post there was a quote from DG that originally that is what they wanted to do for DAO but EA wanted a major world threat and so the darkspawn were born. Then they did go with that idea for DA2 but unfortunately the reception for the game wasn't that good, so they went back to the "hero saves the world" formula. I actually loved the premise for DA2 and if I could have developed my own character (as I say above) then I would have been happy. I found replay ability was limited by having Hawke and family as the only options.
However, the main problem with DA2 for me was the reusing of areas and having plot aspects that really didn't make sense. Number one was why we would have gone to Kirkwall in the first place, regardless of Leandra's insistence that we had family there, because of the Templar situation viz a viz our mage family members. Then there was the whole business of us being able to walk into the Gallows with apostate mages and no one noticing. Even worse, when in the final act you could go there with Anders to warn Cullen that he was a danger, he says he'll follow it up and Anders is standing right there. It is aspects like that which reduce immersion for me. So having a realistic world you can react with is the important thing and I would agree that having less sub-plots but with greater depth to them is the right way to go.
I was surprised that the writer criticised DAI so much for not allowing enough empathy with people, since having a diverse cast of characters you can interact with and can develop meaningful relationships with has always been a feature of Dragon Age. What spoils it is when they do put words into your mouth instead of giving you options for how you react to something. Some of the conversations with other people were cut short to my mind before the issues that had been raised had been fully discussed, so again it felt like your character was just there to be expounded to instead of having opinions that the other party respected. I would actually prefer it if, for example, Dorian told me why he disapproved of something I said to my face and I could then have the opportunity of explaining my point of view, rather than just a message on screen "Dorian disapproves." I'd also like to be able to defend my decision when someone tells me I'm an idiot for taking a particular path or even simply lose my temper with them, rather than mutely accept it. Admittedly that would appear to be possible if you really don't get on with a person, seeing as the PC can punch both Solas and Dorian if they feel inclined that way but that is only if you are on bad terms with them. How about having a heated debate with them as a friend that doesn't result in a major loss of approval but actually gains their respect?
As for how your character levels up, I wouldn't have any problem with them increasing the degree to which you can advance your character by conversations and non violent interaction rather than simple combat based advancement. I would refer back to the old Planescape Torment where you could opt to develop a character of great wisdom rather than brute strength and the options you were given to resolve situations reflected this, even to the extent that you could avoid the final battle altogether by defeating your opponent with logic. I loved this approach but I am a very cerebral person and I suspect that many gamers would be disappointed if they didn't get their big boss battle at the end. After all the main criticism of Corypheus was that by the end he didn't seem challenging enough.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 18, 2017 17:21:39 GMT
Good article, mainly because it allowed this thread and debate. There is indeed something tiresome with the old RPG formula: The world is in mortal danger - Hero arrives - Hero does her/his stuff - The world is saved. It`s predictability. In both DA:O and DA:I we knew who the main villain is , and what the final outcome (the world saved) will be way too early into the game. Not necessarily because the story was that predictable, but because the genre`s conventions. Like in police TV shows: a murder is committed, policemen do their stuff, murderer is caught in every episode. And this can became tiresome after a while. It sure is for me, and this is the main reason I like DA2 despite many flaws: the main plot is not predictable. There is a lot of room for improvement in case of RPG`s. One thing is important for me, and I guess for many fans: The fantasy world part. What makes the stories enjoyable is the fact that they are not about our world. They are about exotic realms, with different people, societies, rules ... Everything is far from our daily life. Because if somebody wants an alternative career/life game, there is Sims out there. It`s what made Star Wars a culture phenomenon: exoticism. I don`t think that an idea of a fantasy world character doing mundane stuff has any appeal. I cannot imagine myself playing a blacksmith or a farmer in a fantasy world, and needed to "deliver" say 100 hammer strokes to make a blade (with 100 clicks)in order to make a daily living. Or talk about mundane things with my neighbor the weaver, or with the patrolling guard. Fantasy stories are about important events, not necessarily world-shattering, but definitely not mundane. I doubt there were many RPG fans interested of the life of say Burp the farmer, or Strike the blacksmith in the village of Forget It or the town of Nowhere ... If game studios want ideas about what kind of stories RPG fans will want, it`s easy. They only need to look around and find out what kind of fantasy books fans are reading. Character creation is not just a part of the RPG tradition. It`s also an important tool for immersion. RPG fans want to role-play, but they are no actors. Meaning, role-playing always involves a good deal of our own personality involved. If a game offers more choices for the protagonist, there is a better chance for immersion for every RPG fan. In my case, DA2 offered enough, but the Witcher games did not. Hawke is human, but it can be played as male and female, and the personality/voice tone part allows 3 playing options for each gender. For me, a clever/joking Hawke did the trick. Geralt on the other hand is not only just male (and I`m sure this means a big NO for many players) but his voice and reactions are always the same, and sometimes exactly the opposite of mine. Good idea if you want to act out such a character, but that`s hardly role-playing for me. So I tried but finally declined to play Geralt. The RPG protagonists are far from perfectly fleshed out. The in-game reactions for characters are quite limited. And more so in recent, voiced RPG`s, mostly because of game size concerns. Voiced dialogues and cutscenes take a lot of space, but they are important for immersion. Thus many RPG`s rely to combat as the main instrument to decide outcomes. A solution which makes the games combat heavy, and sometimes unrealistic. Like our protagonist(s) and her/his party is a "trigger happy" dude who kills first and asks questions later. I would welcome a game with alternative solutions available for at least part of the fights. Like the stealth part in Chateau Haine (DA2 Mark of Assassin). Which was one of my favorite DA2 parts, even if it was a bit oddly implemented. But I loved to sneak past all those guards, by figuring out their patrol routes and routines. The burden of meaningless side quests can be easily lifted. It needs just a bit more connection to the main story. One example from Pillars of Eternity: there is a fetch quest early in the game, about helping a pregnant woman by bringing her a medicine from a midwife. Sounds boring, but the trick is that the quest is well connected to the main story. The pregnant woman is the sister of a former party member who died, so the protagonist is interested to help. The entire country is cursed by some sort of plague which renders almost every newborn baby a soulless zombie. The midwife is hiding in a remote place, because the local lord was busy executing everyone who failed to end the plague. With all this context, a boring quest just makes a lot of sense. It`s not so difficult to make every quest meaningful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 18:42:37 GMT
As a player there are three things that I want and consider crucial for me in a game like this (most games that call themselves RPGs aren't true RPGs, imho, because they lack fundamental characteristics like intricate character creation) - 1. Complex Character Customization - I play tabletop RPGs, and I want any fantasy RPG I play to be as flexible in character creation as that type of game. WRPG's like Skyrim, DA:O and DA: I are pretty much the epitome of that as the industry stands now. I am also a hardcore Sims player. I don't want less flexibility in CC, I want more. If the story has to be more contained to accommodate the variables, so be it. I hope that having the PC be an outsider (and if you know me, ideally, a returning and highly customizable former-Inquisitor), regardless of race, will be a thing in DA4 as well. This allows high customization and an in-character reason for the PC not to be up to speed on the local goings on. 2. Complex Companions, NPCs & Relationships - I want the complexity and variety of having other players around, without having to deal with them not being available to play, as well as having a story of their own that I can delve into and react to. 3. Variety in Scenarios - I loved Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts in DA:I, I enjoyed the hell out of the politics and intricate social dynamics in Orzammar in DA:O, I adored to fiddly bits everything to do with the Qunari in DA2. I think that as long as there's a balance between the combat-oriented missions and the talky, lore exploratory parts, it's all good. Despite the clunkier aspects of the combat and lack of a voiced protagonist, I think this is the reason DA:O is often held up as the ideal, as far as the three DA games go. It's very well-balanced in this regard. If I could get a game with a combat/story balance like DA:O with the higher graphics & cinematic scope, voiced protagonist of DA:I, and complex but streamlined combat of DA2, it would almost be the perfect DA game ( )
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 18, 2017 19:29:28 GMT
As a player there are three things that I want and consider crucial for me in a game like this (most games that call themselves RPGs aren't true RPGs, imho, because they lack fundamental characteristics like intricate character creation) - 1. Complex Character Customization - I play tabletop RPGs, and I want any fantasy RPG I play to be as flexible in character creation as that type of game. WRPG's like Skyrim, DA:O and DA: I are pretty much the epitome of that as the industry stands now. I am also a hardcore Sims player. I don't want less flexibility in CC, I want more. If the story has to be more contained to accommodate the variables, so be it. I hope that having the PC be an outsider (and if you know me, ideally, a returning and highly customizable former-Inquisitor), regardless of race, will be a thing in DA4 as well. This allows high customization and an in-character reason for the PC not to be up to speed on the local goings on. 2. Complex Companions, NPCs & Relationships - I want the complexity and variety of having other players around, without having to deal with them not being available to play, as well as having a story of their own that I can delve into and react to. 3. Variety in Scenarios - I loved Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts in DA:I, I enjoyed the hell out of the politics and intricate social dynamics in Orzammar in DA:O, I adored to fiddly bits everything to do with the Qunari in DA2. I think that as long as there's a balance between the combat-oriented missions and the talky, lore exploratory parts, it's all good. Despite the clunkier aspects of the combat and lack of a voiced protagonist, I think this is the reason DA:O is often held up as the ideal, as far as the three DA games go. It's very well-balanced in this regard. If I could get a game with a combat/story balance like DA:O with the higher graphics & cinematic scope, voiced protagonist of DA:I, and complex but streamlined combat of DA2, it would almost be the perfect DA game ( ) I want YOU to write the next AAA FRPG I play! I couldn't agree more.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 18, 2017 19:37:40 GMT
That said, the example given in The Witcher is just so... not a thing that makes me want to play it. I mean, boo hoo, poor guy has to choose between two conventionally attractive women, must be tough to be him. No one should cry over Geralt's sex life, that's for sure, but to be fair to the story -- particularly the novels, but even just the games -- there's more to Yennifer and Triss than just nice tits. They are fully developed characters, they don't just f---, they also f--- up, make mistakes (out of pride in the case of Yennifer, out of ambition in the case of Triss), betray Geralt, aid Geralt both when it suits their own agendas and when it doesn't, try to make things right, make heroic sacrifices, pursue their own ambitions and agendas, double-cross the bad guys, learn from their mistakes. All the things you'd want from a complex character. Even the nice packages they come in aren't all they may seem to be, particularly in the case of Yennifer. They barely touch on it in the game, but in the books, it's made quite clear that what you see is not what Yennifer really looks like. She's like 80 years old, for one thing. And Geralt knows this.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 18, 2017 19:56:40 GMT
So I'm of two minds. When I want to play a True FRPG[TM], I want what @dawnstone described. But I also enjoy story-centric games where I inhabit an existing character: The Last Of Us, Witcher, Deus Ex, etc. I don't mind being the actor playing the lead character in an action movie, with the game as the director, as long as the story is exciting and moving and challenging. There's a reason TLoU is top 10 in a lot of best game of all time lists. I also really, really enjoyed emergent gameplay in Skyrim. But, interestingly, not in a first run, or even by the third. I know emergent gameplay is more than enough motivation for a lot of players -- thus the success of Minecraft, Goat Simulator, Just Cause, etc. -- but I need a story to get me hooked in a game first. Which relegates, for better or worse, emergent gameplay to replay value. But is that such a bad thing? Look at the longevity of Skyrim and it's popularity. A lot of that attributes to a) modding and emergent gameplay -- making up your own game and enjoying it in a sandbox world that is just flexible enough, but not too flexible, to make that possible. So for me, I can go either way, True FRPG or Action game/movie, but for both, replay value can be greatly enhanced by enabling some kind of emergent gameplay mode. Set the main story on the back burner and let me do something else in this fantastic world you've built.
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Post by Awkward Octopus on Feb 18, 2017 19:57:56 GMT
That said, the example given in The Witcher is just so... not a thing that makes me want to play it. I mean, boo hoo, poor guy has to choose between two conventionally attractive women, must be tough to be him. No one should cry over Geralt's sex life, that's for sure, but to be fair to the story -- particularly the novels, but even just the games -- there's more to Yennifer and Triss than just nice tits. They are fully developed characters, they don't just f---, they also f--- up, make mistakes (out of pride in the case of Yennifer, out of ambition in the case of Triss), betray Geralt, aid Geralt both when it suits their own agendas and when it doesn't, try to make things right, make heroic sacrifices, pursue their own ambitions and agendas, double-cross the bad guys, learn from their mistakes. All the things you'd want from a complex character. Even the nice packages they come in aren't all they may seem to be, particularly in the case of Yennifer. They barely touch on it in the game, but in the books, it's made quite clear that what you see is not what Yennifer really looks like. She's like 80 years old, for one thing. And Geralt knows this. That's fair. I was definitely being flippant in my wording, but I know part of why people like the games is because the characters are interesting and developed compared to many other games. I wasn't really trying to pick on the characters for being pretty (it's a visual medium, characters are going to be pretty), I just, personally, find it difficult to take that particular dilemma seriously. So I made a joke about it that didn't come across very well. I suppose it would be fair of me to say, though, that romantic relationships are basically the bottom of my list of things that I find interesting. I don't hate them or anything, but a well-written friendship, or brotherly/sisterly bond, or mentor relationship, or story about familial piety, is somehow a million times more interesting to me. I'm probably weird, though. (Or bored - romantic plot tumor is a common affliction in media...) EDIT (so I don't have to double-post): As for the character-creation focused RPG vs story-centric, pre-determined character games, I don't think there's a need to pick one over the other. Both is good. We can have both types of games. I don't think one is better than the other. They can both learn from each other, sure. Find different slots along that continuum. I'm not always going to like every proposed entry, but that doesn't invalidate them. I am pro-game diversity.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 18, 2017 20:00:46 GMT
Sarcastic Hawke is awesome.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 18, 2017 22:31:32 GMT
I don't completely agree with the article but there are elements that i do.
Thought it was interesting hearing praise for DA2 which has been rare in past despite my own love of that flawed masterpiece. Maybe the Skyrim era is passing somewhat where open world became the watchword. TW3 was the best attempt i've seen to marry story and open world but i think that's a very tricky task to reproduce.
I think the notion of the trade off between the degree of customisation & the degree of fixedness of protagonist is true, i just don't believe that either extreme is the ideal. A goldilocks zone in the middle so to speak. Like anything though taking something away once it has been there is very difficult. Hence why Mass Effect has been able to resist species choice whereas DA felt a pressure to bring it back in DAI.
Have to say the notion of playing a nobody innkeeper or carpenters apprentice in an rpg isn't appealing. Nor is no freedom in terms of your companions. So not really sure i see the power fantasy element ending nor would i really want it to.
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