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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 19, 2017 1:04:32 GMT
I read this article earlier. I completely agree with the notion of BioWare's "stroke the player's ego" stories being fucking tired and ineffective. I think allowing us to create our own protagonist is cool but I agree that it's more interesting to play as a role than to self-insert yourself, I just personally like the customization of face and hair and gender as well as background but for my last 3 playthroughs of any given BioWare game I actually picked those options based on what I thought would be interesting to explore rather than how I see myself. Obviously, I think there's a room for both but I'm seriously tired of Mike Laidlaw's archaic design principles about "empowering the player".
Making choices is cool but not at the expense of believable sense, like when Cassandra decides you must be the leader because she's so faithful and that because she can't decide with her friends she asks her prisoner what he thinks as a strategy even though she's looking at a potential killer of the most holy living figure, Justinia.
All of those things are probably not something the writers decided. It sounds more like some of the design team stepped in and went "But wait, the player has no say, we can't have that! Make THEM decide what you should do. We have to make the player special!"
You can see this in the derpy video they made where Patrick Weekes and Laidlaw play cards while discussing story on BioWare Base over at Youtube. Mike Laidlaw is pretty obsessed about "empowering the player". It's by-the-numbers and tired. They need to go back to the direction they were taking with DA2 whilist expanding the scope and customization.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 19, 2017 7:22:18 GMT
I read this article earlier. I completely agree with the notion of BioWare's "stroke the player's ego" stories being fucking tired and ineffective. I think allowing us to create our own protagonist is cool but I agree that it's more interesting to play as a role than to self-insert yourself, I just personally like the customization of face and hair and gender as well as background but for my last 3 playthroughs of any given BioWare game I actually picked those options based on what I thought would be interesting to explore rather than how I see myself. Obviously, I think there's a room for both but I'm seriously tired of Mike Laidlaw's archaic design principles about "empowering the player". Making choices is cool but not at the expense of believable sense, like when Cassandra decides you must be the leader because she's so faithful and that because she can't decide with her friends she asks her prisoner what he thinks as a strategy even though she's looking at a potential killer of the most holy living figure, Justinia. All of those things are probably not something the writers decided. It sounds more like some of the design team stepped in and went "But wait, the player has no say, we can't have that! Make THEM decide what you should do. We have to make the player special!" You can see this in the derpy video they made where Patrick Weekes and Laidlaw play cards while discussing story on BioWare Base over at Youtube. Mike Laidlaw is pretty obsessed about "empowering the player". It's by-the-numbers and tired. They need to go back to the direction they were taking with DA2 whilist expanding the scope and customization. Your term "stroke the player's ego" is a very good choice to describe how most stories for RPG`s are decided. In Bioware`s case, we can start with Baldur`s Gate, their first RPG, and the Bhaalspawn concept. Being always the "Chosen One" from the very start of every game is well past tiresome and quite annoying for me. And the Chosen One feeling is amplified hundredfold when every single companion or ally is looking at the protagonist as s/he is the one and only oracle and savior the entire world have ever had. Cassandra in DA:I was bad enough; the same thing happened in DA:O even without the very obvious mark on the Inquisitor`s hand. Each and every Warden, no matter her/his origin (even a castless dwarf or a "worth nothing" city elf) is proclaimed instantly by Flemeth the Chosen One at their first meeting in the Wilds. Then King Cailan for absolutely no rational reason wants her/him at the meeting (again, even a lowlife Warden). After Ostagar, Flemeth delivers her "Idiot Guide for Dummies" speech for the Warden sake alone. By the way, Alistair already conceded command to the protagonist at the very first meeting ("... then lead on!"), again a completely irrational and unexplained choice, since he is the more experienced compared with the three recruits. After Ostagar, every character hangs on the Warden`s words like s/he is the new Andraste, Paragon or Elven God. Everyone in Ferelden and Orzamar is stuck in a mess, incapable to make a single sensible decision to act. All they are doing is to just wait for a "deus ex machina" - the Warden arriving from nowhere and saving the day. All this hyper-inflated ego stuff make no sense in any rationally planned story. It may feel great to role-play the One and Only, the Eternal Chosen One. But it makes no sense. I liked Hawke because her/his story made sense. It`s natural to have only limited power and influence in a world, even a fantasy one - unless you are the God of that world. For instance, how much influence has Gandalf in LOTR? Not even 1/10 of that of the Warden or Inquisitor. More than that, by having limited power and influence, every single success is much more rewarding. It`s one thing to be the single uncontested decision factor in a game, compared to a much lower position which requires convincing and hard labor to alter the course of events. DA2`s downfall was not about the game`s flaws but the abandonment of Hawke`s Godlike status. Most fans demanded it back, so here it is, back in full glory in DA:I - with a visible green mark on her/his hand (and a protagonist`s hand icon for any player dumb enough to miss it) AND of course Cassandra`s irrational choice for a leader.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 19, 2017 9:01:19 GMT
No one should cry over Geralt's sex life, that's for sure, but to be fair to the story -- particularly the novels, but even just the games -- there's more to Yennifer and Triss than just nice tits. They are fully developed characters, they don't just f---, they also f--- up, make mistakes (out of pride in the case of Yennifer, out of ambition in the case of Triss), betray Geralt, aid Geralt both when it suits their own agendas and when it doesn't, try to make things right, make heroic sacrifices, pursue their own ambitions and agendas, double-cross the bad guys, learn from their mistakes. All the things you'd want from a complex character. Even the nice packages they come in aren't all they may seem to be, particularly in the case of Yennifer. They barely touch on it in the game, but in the books, it's made quite clear that what you see is not what Yennifer really looks like. She's like 80 years old, for one thing. And Geralt knows this. The Witcher series is the story of a niche game growing big. W1 started as a game celebrating Andrzej Sapkowski`s books about Geralt, and was widely embraced by players who have never read the books. For someone who have read them, Geralt from the games is rather a caricature of Sapkowski`s character. This Geralt is just grumpy, and it seemed that he lost not only his memory, but also most of his personality and sense of humor. More than that, the way romance was treated in W1 was closer to Leisure Suit Larry than Geralt from the books. Sapkowski`s Geralt has a lot of sex, but there was also placed in context. W1 Geralt`s main goal in the game is to have as much sex as possible, with as many women as possible. Everything else comes second. His non-verbal reaction in some cutscenes tips you the player that this is what Geralt wants, so you better play along. For these reasons - a dumbed-down Geralt doubled as a sex-addict (he is not even good for a role as Casanova, since he has no eloquence) - I have no intention to play the games, no matter how good the story is, or how meaningful the side-quests. Role-playing is not similar with acting, which means to "wear" the protagonist`s personality as a cloak. Most fans are not actors. I cannot speak in other fan`s name, but I don`t want to role-play characters at odds with my own self. It`s one thing to imagine being a character from Ancient Rome, and reacting according to that society`s rules, and completely something else to role-play somebody I cannot be in any alternative universe. I will not play a sadistic murderer who just loves to kill and torture, an imbecile or a savage head-bashing brute. If a game offers just one choice for me to play as a protagonist, and I cannot find a connection with that character, it`s a pass for me. Many years ago I was gifted a strange game by a friend: Arcatera, made by Ubisoft. I never finished it. It was one of the first 3D attempts, and has some bad options - the protagonist and companions had to eat and drink to stay alive, but there was no food in a whole damn city. BUT Arcatera used a clever concept: There were FOUR characters involved in the story: Adventurer / Thief / Monk / Magician. Every one has an origin story, just like DA:O, and the player had to choose one of them, play the origin, and then MEET THE OTHER 3 CHARACTERS soon after, creating the party. So you had 4 character choices, with different background, history, personality and skills to choose from. All four characters were pre-made, but there was the option to choose one. It`s a good compromise if the story`s consistency requires "fixed" characters, but still allowing the player to find a protagonist better suited to her/his preference. It`s like DA:O having only pre-made characters - all the companions - but offering the option to play one of them: Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, Sten, Wynne, Zevran, Oghren and even Shale. Well, not the Dog (although it would be fun ). With a short origin for each of them, of course. Then your chosen character will meet every other companion throughout the game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 19, 2017 16:58:34 GMT
In some ways they did something similar with DAO. Whichever origin you choose, the others still happen but end in a certain way that is different from if you chose to play them. So the Dalish Mahariel dies at the eluvian; the dwarf noble presumably dies exiled in the Deep Roads; Jowan still escapes from the Circle but not the person who aided them; the younger Cousland presumably dies with their parents but Fergus still survives. We run into certain people who were connected with the other origin stories in the course of the game, they just don't have the same significance for us if we didn't play that particular origin story.
Actually the Warden assuming command made sense to me because Alistair clearly had no wish to do so. I might have been a very reluctant hero or fully embraced the role but it was clear that someone had to do so as we were the only two Wardens left alive. There were aspects to the plot in DAO that did seem forced but that was not one of them.
The crux of the matter is, do you simply want to be an actor playing a role already defined for you or do you want to make the character your own? I much prefer the latter. Either way you still need to immerse yourself in the world and are playing a role but as others have said, I wouldn't want a particular type of character forced on me simply because the writers couldn't be bothered to flesh out more than one background and character type. Actually one of the annoying aspects of DAI was that at times it was obvious that the dialogue had been written for a human Inquisitor and it didn't seem to fit the other race backgrounds. There were some limited race specific dialogue choices but even these seemed forced at times, since your character ended up responding in a way that the writers had decided were appropriate to that race rather than what you would have wished to say. Based off this, I really wouldn't want a PC forced on me and have no control over their character development at all.
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adrianbc
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 19, 2017 17:36:25 GMT
In some ways they did something similar with DAO. Whichever origin you choose, the others still happen but end in a certain way that is different from if you chose to play them. So the Dalish Mahariel dies at the eluvian; the dwarf noble presumably dies exiled in the Deep Roads; Jowan still escapes from the Circle but not the person who aided them; the younger Cousland presumably dies with their parents but Fergus still survives. We run into certain people who were connected with the other origin stories in the course of the game, they just don't have the same significance for us if we didn't play that particular origin story. Actually the Warden assuming command made sense to me because Alistair clearly had no wish to do so. I might have been a very reluctant hero or fully embraced the role but it was clear that someone had to do so as we were the only two Wardens left alive. There were aspects to the plot in DAO that did seem forced but that was not one of them. The crux of the matter is, do you simply want to be an actor playing a role already defined for you or do you want to make the character your own? I much prefer the latter. Either way you still need to immerse yourself in the world and are playing a role but as others have said, I wouldn't want a particular type of character forced on me simply because the writers couldn't be bothered to flesh out more than one background and character type. Actually one of the annoying aspects of DAI was that at times it was obvious that the dialogue had been written for a human Inquisitor and it didn't seem to fit the other race backgrounds. There were some limited race specific dialogue choices but even these seemed forced at times, since your character ended up responding in a way that the writers had decided were appropriate to that race rather than what you would have wished to say. Based off this, I really wouldn't want a PC forced on me and have no control over their character development at all. There is a difference between the origins in DA:O and Arcatera: In DA:O all 5 remaining origins (those not chosen for that particular PT) endings are the same: the "possible" warden dead. In Arcatera all 4 origins happen simultaneously, but all four characters survive and they are your party. I played through all of them the moment I realized that the other 3 companions were the other options to choose, so I learned their personal background stories, and these are reflected in the game, no matter which character out of the four you are choosing to play. A nice concept, although a bit unbalanced - there were 3 males and just one female character. Understandable somehow since the game was released in 2000... The problem with Alistair offering up the command is that he does this BEFORE Ostagar. At the first meeting in the camp, which is quite odd. Our future Warden is just one of three candidates, and nothing places her/him above the other recruits. And Alistair is the ONLY Warden among them, and the only one able to sense darkspawn, so he should be leading. This is just the "empowering the protagonist" requirement in action. While it make sense in the origin stories, it`s just a nonsense in the Wilds and the Ostagar Battle. After the meeting with the king, Alistair is acting already as if he`s under the Warden`s command when talking with Duncan the last time. Bioware could have been solved this easily, by letting Alistair assume command and the Warden acting as an aide and advisor. Then at Lothering Alistair would have forced the party to go to Redcliffe. After revealing his connection with Maric and his heir status, Alistair could have easily asked the Warden to take command, since the moment he is forced to reveal himself as Maric`s heir the actions of the Grey Wardens would have been judged as selfish if under Alistair`s command. Instead, Bioware have chosen the nonsense approach to put the protagonist in total command from start, and with full, unquestioned authority. Which is simply crazy. Because otherwise DA:O has enough credible political elements inserted all over the main plot, which proves that the writers knew how to handle politics. It`s hard to believe the writers went nuts only concerning the Warden. Most likely they were ordered to do so.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 19, 2017 21:45:09 GMT
No one should cry over Geralt's sex life, that's for sure, but to be fair to the story -- particularly the novels, but even just the games -- there's more to Yennifer and Triss than just nice tits. They are fully developed characters, they don't just f---, they also f--- up, make mistakes (out of pride in the case of Yennifer, out of ambition in the case of Triss), betray Geralt, aid Geralt both when it suits their own agendas and when it doesn't, try to make things right, make heroic sacrifices, pursue their own ambitions and agendas, double-cross the bad guys, learn from their mistakes. All the things you'd want from a complex character. Even the nice packages they come in aren't all they may seem to be, particularly in the case of Yennifer. They barely touch on it in the game, but in the books, it's made quite clear that what you see is not what Yennifer really looks like. She's like 80 years old, for one thing. And Geralt knows this. For these reasons - a dumbed-down Geralt doubled as a sex-addict (he is not even good for a role as Casanova, since he has no eloquence) - I have no intention to play the games, no matter how good the story is, or how meaningful the side-quests. This may be futile, but I'm going to suggest you try the game anyway. You can skip TW1 and go to TW2. Yes, it's true that game-Geralt is a pale shadow of the book-Geralt, but that doesn't mean that the game story isn't worthwhile. Compared to other games, the narrative in TW2 and TW3 is outstanding. Whether or not it holds a candle to the books, that's up to you to decide, but what game compares favorably to any (original) book? The sexy stuff is optional -- I can't think of a case where it's mandatory to progress the main quest. You can ignore it if you want. The game-verse is an alternate history of the books. I find the game-verse to be an interesting alternative, focusing on certain conflicts that the book glosses over or doesn't even have in the first place. They do a good job of keeping the spirit of the books while taking a fresh cut at the material.
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Post by phoray on Feb 20, 2017 10:09:04 GMT
I should really be asleep, so I'll keep it short. HrungrI disagree with that Extra Credits. After my first Self Insert Character, I RP heavily. WIth an understanding of the world and choices, I can RP a person who has the same dillema as that guy says Geralt had. I played TW3 and my interpretation of the Triss vs Yenn choices isn't even the same. Anyway, what I pick up from his argument is that he lacks the motivation/time/imagination to flesh out a character, create it, and then, with a mastery of the game, manipulate events so his character has those dillemas= what I do. I mean, you can play Geralt as not giving a fuck about either woman, or even that he remembered Yenn and then dropped Triss like a cold turkey. The dilemma he uses is self created in his head, just like mine are. What is true is that by severely limiting character choices, they could devote their time to a narrative story that supported what they allowed more fully. That is neat. But then it stops being about who you're role playing, because with Geralt you get Geralt no matter what you do, and entirely on how good the story is. TW3 story was great! but I see very limited roleplayablity, because the there are two romance choices and then there are two ways of being- an asshole and slightly less of an asshole.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Evamitchelle on Feb 20, 2017 14:07:15 GMT
The problem with Alistair offering up the command is that he does this BEFORE Ostagar. At the first meeting in the camp, which is quite odd. Our future Warden is just one of three candidates, and nothing places her/him above the other recruits. And Alistair is the ONLY Warden among them, and the only one able to sense darkspawn, so he should be leading. This is just the "empowering the protagonist" requirement in action. While it make sense in the origin stories, it`s just a nonsense in the Wilds and the Ostagar Battle. After the meeting with the king, Alistair is acting already as if he`s under the Warden`s command when talking with Duncan the last time. Bioware could have been solved this easily, by letting Alistair assume command and the Warden acting as an aide and advisor. Then at Lothering Alistair would have forced the party to go to Redcliffe. After revealing his connection with Maric and his heir status, Alistair could have easily asked the Warden to take command, since the moment he is forced to reveal himself as Maric`s heir the actions of the Grey Wardens would have been judged as selfish if under Alistair`s command. Instead, Bioware have chosen the nonsense approach to put the protagonist in total command from start, and with full, unquestioned authority. Which is simply crazy. Because otherwise DA:O has enough credible political elements inserted all over the main plot, which proves that the writers knew how to handle politics. It`s hard to believe the writers went nuts only concerning the Warden. Most likely they were ordered to do so. Alistair is a 20-year-old who has pretty much never made a decision for himself in his life: he was sent to the Chantry as a child, and apparently never tried to escape his fate as a templar despite being desperately miserable (by comparison, Anders started escaping the Circle when he was barely a teenager); similarly, he was recruited in the Grey Wardens because of Duncan, he never made an attempt to seek them out himself. Alistair is a very passive person, and remains that way for most of DAO, especially if unhardened. That he doesn’t want to bear the burden of saving Ferelden on his shoulders, and would rather pass it on to the Warden, makes perfect sense to me. As for what happens before the Battle of Ostagar, I wouldn’t say that the Warden is being put in charge. They’re doing exactly what Duncan asked them to do. Leading the party into the Wilds is a test of their skill; Alistair isn’t assuming command because his role is to observe how the Warden handles their task, and make sure the group actually comes back alive. During the battle, both Alistair and the Warden share the same goal. The Warden doesn’t really give Alistair any orders outside of gameplay. All in all, I’d say that Alistair willingly ceding his authority to the Warden is pretty understandable. Certainly more understandable than the Warden openly choosing the monarch of two separate kingdoms (where they might be considered second class citizens) in front of the entire nobility. This is something that DAI handled much better in my opinion: while the Inquisitor does choose the new Emperor/Empress of Orlais, it’s all behind-the-scenes stuff. You can let Celene die without revealing your involvement, but you can’t openly depose her like you can Anora. You can only put Gaspard and Briala on the throne with Celene dead and the right blackmail. And of course, there’s also the Divine election. Your choices are taken into account so that the player can effectively choose the Divine they want, but the Inquisitor can’t outright name her, they can only (try to) influence the final decision.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 20, 2017 14:18:30 GMT
I almost completely disagree with much of what the article says. As others here have said, I have no desire to play storyless rpgs, in which I'm the local baker, with baker related issues and a family to have to deal with. ergh, I couldn't imagine anything worse, thats pretty much my life If people want to play something like that = the sims. If someone wants to make an rpg like it, I wouldn't object, but I certainly wouldn't lay down money to play. I doubt I'd play it for free. I don't have an issue with the "save the universe" goal either, yeah, its oft used and too oft used poorly, but I like having a sense that my character has some purpose, that the story I'm involved in has some consequence beyond, "you saved the village idiot, rounded up a flock of sheep and convinced the local lord to forgo tax collection this year as rain ruined the village crops" I'd be happy with the saving of a city, thwarting an invasion, defeating a mystical bugaloo in the lost caverns of gutsquirt. But I need something more than aimless meanderings to engage with and if the the whole, epic hero of the universe, is done well, I'm all for it. As to characterisation, I really enjoy the cinematised (is that a word, I don't think it's a word but I'm going with it anyway) experience that having a voiced protagnist provides, but I think much of the rpg industry has failed to compensate for the lose of immersion that comes from having lines of dialogue to choose from, when it comes to npc interaction. Every rpg and it's warty brother is moving towards the dialogue wheel and I'm one of those traditionalists that honestly misses having the dialogue window, with a selection of responses with which to engage other characters with. Being able to ask probing questions and infere intonation on the lines of script that an actor might deliver differently. I admit that the voiced protagnist has it's benefits in terms of immersion too, but as gervaise said, with a dialogue wheel, you can only say, what developers could afford for their voice actor to say, you never get to question npcs anymore, beyond what developers deem to be relevant or convenient. I think it's a loss that has yet to be adressed. When it comes to AAA gaming, I never expect too much in the area of rpgs (or much of any other games so labeled) In the effort to appeal to as broader range of consumers as possible (to recupe the vast financial investment) we tend to se a trend of "catch bag features" breadth over substance, that ultimately dilutes and detracts from the over arching goal of the end product. This alone I probably would agree with.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 20, 2017 14:33:05 GMT
All in all, I’d say that Alistair willingly ceding his authority to the Warden is pretty understandable. Certainly more understandable than the Warden openly choosing the monarch of two separate kingdoms (where they might be considered second class citizens) in front of the entire nobility. This is something that DAI handled much better in my opinion: while the Inquisitor does choose the new Emperor/Empress of Orlais, it’s all behind-the-scenes stuff. You can let Celene die without revealing your involvement, but you can’t openly depose her like you can Anora. You can only put Gaspard and Briala on the throne with Celene dead and the right blackmail. And of course, there’s also the Divine election. Your choices are taken into account so that the player can effectively choose the Divine they want, but the Inquisitor can’t outright name her, they can only (try to) influence the final decision. I don't think the way DAI handled it is better. Forcing only way to get rid of Celene is to stand back and allow her murder, no matter the evidence you have. It's completely unsatisfying and terribly signposted. Beforehand the entire set-up suggests your support should influence who gets the upper hand in the civil war.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Evamitchelle on Feb 20, 2017 14:51:35 GMT
All in all, I’d say that Alistair willingly ceding his authority to the Warden is pretty understandable. Certainly more understandable than the Warden openly choosing the monarch of two separate kingdoms (where they might be considered second class citizens) in front of the entire nobility. This is something that DAI handled much better in my opinion: while the Inquisitor does choose the new Emperor/Empress of Orlais, it’s all behind-the-scenes stuff. You can let Celene die without revealing your involvement, but you can’t openly depose her like you can Anora. You can only put Gaspard and Briala on the throne with Celene dead and the right blackmail. And of course, there’s also the Divine election. Your choices are taken into account so that the player can effectively choose the Divine they want, but the Inquisitor can’t outright name her, they can only (try to) influence the final decision. I don't think the way DAI handled it is better. Forcing only way to get rid of Celene is to stand back and allow her murder, no matter the evidence you have. It's completely unsatisfying and terribly signposted. Beforehand the entire set-up suggests your support should influence who gets the upper hand in the civil war. Celene has been the reigning Empress of Orlais for the past 20 years, she's still pretty popular, the Civil War is at a stand-still; I don't see how she could be convinced to definitively give up her throne by the Inquisitor in a single night. Supporting one side or the other in the civil war would require a lot more time than just one night in Halamshiral, so if we're confined to one story mission, I think the way they did it in DAI makes the most sense (from an in-world perspective).
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 15:16:52 GMT
Alistair is a 20-year-old who has pretty much never made a decision for himself in his life: he was sent to the Chantry as a child, and apparently never tried to escape his fate as a templar despite being desperately miserable (by comparison, Anders started escaping the Circle when he was barely a teenager); similarly, he was recruited in the Grey Wardens because of Duncan, he never made an attempt to seek them out himself. Alistair is a very passive person, and remains that way for most of DAO, especially if unhardened. That he doesn’t want to bear the burden of saving Ferelden on his shoulders, and would rather pass it on to the Warden, makes perfect sense to me. As for what happens before the Battle of Ostagar, I wouldn’t say that the Warden is being put in charge. They’re doing exactly what Duncan asked them to do. Leading the party into the Wilds is a test of their skill; Alistair isn’t assuming command because his role is to observe how the Warden handles their task, and make sure the group actually comes back alive. During the battle, both Alistair and the Warden share the same goal. The Warden doesn’t really give Alistair any orders outside of gameplay. All in all, I’d say that Alistair willingly ceding his authority to the Warden is pretty understandable. Certainly more understandable than the Warden openly choosing the monarch of two separate kingdoms (where they might be considered second class citizens) in front of the entire nobility. This is something that DAI handled much better in my opinion: while the Inquisitor does choose the new Emperor/Empress of Orlais, it’s all behind-the-scenes stuff. You can let Celene die without revealing your involvement, but you can’t openly depose her like you can Anora. You can only put Gaspard and Briala on the throne with Celene dead and the right blackmail. And of course, there’s also the Divine election. Your choices are taken into account so that the player can effectively choose the Divine they want, but the Inquisitor can’t outright name her, they can only (try to) influence the final decision. Well, I`m glad that Alistair`s behavior make sense for you. It does not make sense for me though, and you cannot do a thing about this. Why? First, because since I played DA:O with a male Cousland it became obvious that the game was made for this particular character. All the other origins were added lately. For a male Cousland, who is second heir of the second most important noble house in Ferelden after the king, leading a war party is normal. Daveth and Jory cannot have objections - Daveth is a condemned thief, and Jory is a Highever subject, calling a Cousland "My Lord". The same about Alistair. Even if Alistair is a bit older, the new recruit is practically the fifth most important man in Ferelden, after Cailan, Loghain , Bryce and Fergus Cousland. For such a high ranking noble it`s custom to be invited by the King to the Strategical Council, even if he`s just a new Grey Warden. The problem is, for the other origins this viewpoint does not stand, except perhaps for an Aeducan prince. I cannot see how Alistair who is very suspicious about mages is so eager to entrust a Circle mage as the lead Warden. Or Daveth and Jory accepting it. The same about a Brosca castless dwarf, who was never topside and knows nothing about darkspawn. Not to mention an elf, especially the city elf. Who is not only despised and considered good only to be servant, but is`t also a murderer. You can say anything you want about Grey Wardens being all about equality and stuff, but in any military group leadership is earned, especially in the case of one without nobility ties. A Circle mage or a casteless dwarf have no experience with the outside world, no leadership or military skills, no way to know how to recognize danger in the Wild, or to use diplomacy. Who in all Ferelden will trust an elf as the Grey Warden leader, or a mage? It`s like electing a mage qunari as the new Divine. My guess is that Bioware started DA:O with only a Cousland as a protagonist (just like in case of Hawke), wrote most of the dialogues and made most of the scenes for a Cousland and then as an afterthought they added the other origins but without altering the game. They decided not to rewrite a great part of the game, thus maintaining the "one story" concept but created immersion problems for any non-Cousland protagonist.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 15:47:32 GMT
PapaCharlie9, phoray There is a difference between playing the Witcher games and already having a reference for Geralt, and playing the games with a blank slate. For me, it`s like watching something like a new take of the Lord of the Rings by Guy Ritchie, with Rowan Atkinson playing Gandalf. Or Jason Stathan. Each of these two are good for bringing up a part of Gandalf`s personality: The humorous angle (Atkinson) or the grumpy/threatening one (Stathan). But neither of them is able to play a "whole" Gandalf. As far as I know, the Witcher games are a kind of next chapter in Geralt`s saga, after he returned from Avalon (the ending of "The Lady Of The Lake"). I`ve tried several times to play W1 and W2, and I always felt Geralt from the game too one-dimensional compared with the character from the stories. Cd Projekt Red have taken some risk by doing a game trilogy with an established protagonist, instead of choosing a fresh one. It worked for many players, but not for me. And the main problem is the way Geralt acts in-game, especially in cutscenes. AND the voice, AND personality. The Geralt from the games is in conflict with the one from the books. And this is what breaks immersion for me. I`ll post again a short fragment from "The Last Wish" concerning a part of Geralt`s not really seen in the games. It`s not the best example, but good enough and short: Falwick, in full armor, without a helmet and with the crimson coat of the Order flung over his shoulder, stood in the glade. Next to him, with his arms across his chest, was a stocky, bearded dwarf in an overcoat lined with fox fur over, a chain-mail shirt of iron rings. Tailles, wearing no armor but a short, quilted doublet, paced slowly, brandishing his unsheathed sword from time to time. The witcher looked about, restraining his horse. All around glinted the cuirasses and flat helmets of soldiers armed with lances. “Bloody hell,” muttered Geralt. “I might have expected this.” Dandilion turned his horse and quietly cursed at the sight of the lances cutting off their retreat. “What's this about, Geralt?” “Nothing. Keep your mouth shut and don't butt in. I’ll try to lie my way out of it somehow.” “What's it about, I ask you? More trouble?” “Shut up.” “It was a stupid idea after all, to ride into town,” groaned the troubadour, glancing toward the nearby towers of the temple visible above the forest. “We should have stayed at Nenneke's and not stirred beyond the walls—” “Shut up. It'll all become clear, you'll see.” “Doesn't look like it.” Dandilion was right. It didn't. Tailles, brandishing his naked sword, continued pacing without looking in their direction. The soldiers, leaning on their spears, were watching gloomily and indifferently, with the expression of professionals for whom killing does not provoke much interest. They dismounted. Falwick and the dwarf slowly approached. “You've insulted Tailles, a man of good birth, witcher,” said the count without preamble or the customary courtesies. “And Tailles, as you no doubt remember, threw down the gauntlet. It was not fit to press you within the grounds of the temple, so we waited until you emerged from behind the priestess's skirt. Tailles is waiting. You must fight.” “Must?” “Must.” “But do you not think, Falwick”—Geralt smiled disapprovingly—“that Tailles, a man of good birth, does me too much honor? I never attained the honor of being knighted, and it's best not to mention the circumstances of my birth. I fear I’m not sufficiently worthy of…How does one say it, Dandilion?” “Unfit to give satisfaction and joust in the lists,” recited the poet, pouting. “The code of chivalry proclaims—” “The Chapter of the Order is governed by its own code,” interrupted Falwick. “If it were you who challenged a Knight of the Order, he could either refuse or grant you satisfaction, according to his will. But this is the reverse: it is the knight who challenges you and by this he raises you to his own level—but, of course, only for the time it takes to avenge the insult. You can't refuse. The refusal of accepting the dignity would render you unworthy.” “How logical,” said Dandilion with an apelike expression. “I see you've studied the philosophers, sir Knight.” “Don't butt in.” Geralt raised his head and looked into Falwick's eyes. “Go on, sir. I’d like to know where this is leading. What would happen if I turned out to be…unworthy?” “What would happen?” Falwick gave a malicious smile. “I’d order you hung from a branch, you ratcatcher.” “Hold on,” the dwarf said hoarsely. “Take it easy, sir. And no invective, all right?” “Don't you teach me manners, Cranmer,” hissed the knight. “And remember, the prince has given you orders which you're to execute to the letter.” “It's you who shouldn't be teaching me, Count.” The dwarf rested his hand on the double-headed axe thrust into his belt. “I know how to carry out orders, and I can do without your advice. Allow me, Geralt sir. I’m Dennis Cranmer, captain of Prince Hereward's guards.” The witcher bowed stiffly, looking into the dwarf's eyes, light gray and steel-like beneath the bushy flaxen eyebrows. “Stand your ground with Tailles, sir,” Dennis Cranmer continued calmly. “It'll be better that way. It's not a fight to the death, only until one of you is rendered helpless. So fight in the field and let him render you helpless.” “I beg your pardon?” “Sir Tailles is the prince's favorite,” said Falwick, smiling spitefully. “If you touch him with your saber during the fight, you mutant, you will be punished. Captain Cranmer will arrest you and take you to face his Highness. To be punished. Those are his orders.” The dwarf didn't even glance at the knight; his cold, steel eyes did not leave Geralt. The witcher smiled faintly but quite nastily. “If I understand correctly,” he said, “I’m to fight the duel because, if I refuse, I’ll be hanged. If I fight, I’m to allow my opponent to injure me because if I wound him, I’ll be put to the rack. What charming alternatives. Maybe I should save you the bother? I’ll thump my head against the pine tree and render myself helpless. Will that grant you satisfaction?” “Don't sneer,” hissed Falwick. “Don't make your situation any worse. You've insulted the Order, you vagabond, and you have to be punished for it; do you understand? And young Tailles needs the fame of defeating a witcher, so the Chapter wants to give it to him. Otherwise you'd be hanging already. You allow yourself to be defeated and you save your miserable life. We don't care about your corpse; we want Tailles to nick your skin. And your mutant skin heals quickly. So, go ahead. Decide. You've got no choice.” “That's what you think, is it, sir?” Geralt smiled even more nastily and looked around at the soldiers appraisingly. “But I think I do.” “Yes, that's true,” admitted Dennis Cranmer. “You do. But then there'll be bloodshed, great bloodshed. Like at Blaviken. Is that what you want? Do you want to burden your conscience with blood and death? Because the alternative you're thinking of, Geralt, is blood and death.” “Your argument is charming, Captain, fascinating even,” mocked Dandilion. “You're trying to bait a man ambushed in the forest with humanitarianism, calling on his nobler feelings. You're asking him, as I understand, to deign not to spill the blood of the brigands who attacked him. He's to take pity on the thugs because the thugs are poor, have got wives, children and, who knows, maybe even mothers. But don't you think, Captain Cranmer, that your worrying is premature? Because I look at your lancers and see that their knees are shaking at the very thought of fighting with Geralt of Rivia, the witcher who dealt with a striga alone, with his bare hands. There won't be any bloodshed here; nobody will be harmed here—aside from those who might break their legs running away.” “I,” said the dwarf calmly and pugnaciously, “have nothing to reproach my knees with. I’ve never run away from anyone and I’m not about to change my ways. I’m not married, don't know anything about any children and I’d prefer not to bring my mother, a woman with whom I’m not very well acquainted, into this. But I will carry out the orders I’ve been given. To the letter, as always. Without calling on any feelings, I ask Geralt of Rivia to make a decision. I will accept whatever he decides and will behave accordingly.” They looked each other in the eyes, the dwarf and the witcher. “Very well,” Geralt said finally. “Let's deal with it. It's a pity to waste the day.” “You agree, then.” Falwick raised his head and his eyes glistened. “You'll fight a duel with the highborn Tailles of Dorndal?” “Yes.” “Good. Prepare yourself.” “I’m ready.” Geralt pulled on his gauntlets. “Let's not waste time. There'll be hell if Nenneke finds out about this. So let's sort it out quickly. Dandilion, keep calm. It's got nothing to do with you. Am I right, Cranmer, sir?” “Absolutely,” the dwarf stated firmly and looked at Falwick. “Absolutely, sir. Whatever happens, it only concerns you.” The witcher took the sword from his back. “No,” said Falwick, drawing his. “You're not going to fight with that razor of yours. Take my sword.” Geralt shrugged. He took the count's blade and swiped it to try it out. “Heavy,” he said coldly. “We could just as easily use spades.” “Tailles has the same. Equal chances.” “You're very funny, Falwick.” The soldiers surrounded the glade, forming a loose circle. Tailles and the witcher stood facing each other. “Tallies? What do you say to an apology?” The young knight screwed up his lips, folded his left arm behind his back and froze in a fencing position. “No?” Geralt smiled. “You don't want to listen to the voice of reason? Pity.” Tailles squatted down, leapt and attacked without warning. The witcher didn't even make an effort to parry and avoided the flat point with a swift half-turn. The knight swiped broadly. The blade cut through the air once more. Geralt dodged beneath it in an agile pirouette, jumped softly aside and, with a short, light feint, threw Tailles off his rhythm. Tailles cursed, cut broadly from the right, lost his balance for a moment and tried to regain it while, instinctively, clumsily, holding his sword high to defend himself. The witcher struck with the speed and force of a lightning bolt, extending his arm to its full length and slashing straight ahead. The heavy sword thundered against Tailles’ blade, deflecting it so hard it hit the knight in the face. Tailles howled, fell to his knees and touched the grass with his forehead. Falwick ran up to him. Geralt dug his sword into the ground and turned around. “Hey, guards!” yelled Falwick, getting up. “Take him!” “Stand still! To your places!” growled Dennis Cranmer, touching his axe. The soldiers froze. “No, Count,” the dwarf said slowly. “I always execute orders to the letter. The witcher did not touch Tailles. The kid hit himself with his own iron. His hard luck.” “His face is destroyed! He's disfigured for life!” “Skin heals.” Dennis Cranmer fixed his steel eyes on the witcher and bared his teeth. “And the scar? For a knight, a scar is a commendable reminder, a reason for fame and glory, which the Chapter so desired for him. A knight without a scar is a prick, not a knight. Ask him, Count, and you'll see that he's pleased.” Tailles was writhing on the ground, spitting blood, whimpering and wailing; he didn't look pleased in the least. “Cranmer!” roared Falwick, tearing his sword from the ground, “you'll be sorry for this, I swear!” The dwarf turned around, slowly pulled the axe from his belt, coughed and spat into his palm. “Oh, Count, sir,” he rasped. “Don't perjure yourself. I can't stand perjurers and Prince Hereward has given me the right to punish them. I’ll turn a deaf ear to your stupid words. But don't repeat them, if you please.” “Witcher.” Falwick, puffing with rage, turned to Geralt. “Get yourself out of Ellander. Immediately. Without a moment's delay!” “I rarely agree with him,” muttered Dennis, approaching the witcher and returning his sword, “but in this case he's right. I’d ride out pretty quick.” “We'll do as you advise.” Geralt slung the belt across his back. “But before that, I have words for the count. Falwick!” The Knight of the White Rose blinked nervously and wiped his palms on his coat. “Let's just go back to your Chapter's code for a minute,” continued the witcher, trying not to smile. “One thing really interests me. If I, let us say, felt disgusted and insulted by your attitude in this whole affair, if I challenged you to the sword right now, what would you do? Would you consider me sufficiently worthy to cross blades with? Or would you refuse, even though you knew that by doing so I would take you to be unworthy even to be spat on, punched in the face and kicked in the arse under the eyes of the foot soldiers? Count Falwick, be so gracious as to satisfy my curiosity.” Falwick grew pale, took a step back, looked around. The soldiers avoided his eyes. Dennis Cranmer grimaced, stuck his tongue out and sent a jet of saliva a fair distance. “Even though you're not saying anything,” continued Geralt, “I can hear the voice of reason in your silence, Falwick, sir. You've satisfied my curiosity; now I’ll satisfy yours. If the Order bothers Mother Nenneke or the priestesses in any way, or unduly intrudes upon Captain Cranmer, then may you know, Count, that I’ll find you and, not caring about any code, will bleed you like a pig.” The knight grew even paler. “Don't forget my promise, Count. Come on, Dandilion. It's time for us to leave. Take care, Dennis.” “Good luck, Geralt.” The dwarf gave a broad smile. “Take care. I’m very pleased to have met you, and hope we'll meet again.” “The feeling's mutual, Dennis.” They rode away with ostensible slowness, not looking back. They began to canter only once they were hidden by the forest. “Geralt,” the poet said suddenly, “surely we won't head straight south? We'll have to make a detour to avoid Ellander and Hereward's lands, won't we? Or do you intend to continue with this show?” “No, Dandilion, I don't. We'll go through the forests and then join the Traders’ Trail. Remember, not a word in Nenneke's presence about this quarrel. Not a word.” “We are riding out without any delay, I hope?” “Immediately.”
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Evamitchelle
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Post by Evamitchelle on Feb 20, 2017 16:13:29 GMT
Well, I`m glad that Alistair`s behavior make sense for you. It does not make sense for me though, and you cannot do a thing about this. Why? First, because since I played DA:O with a male Cousland it became obvious that the game was made for this particular character. All the other origins were added lately. For a male Cousland, who is second heir of the second most important noble house in Ferelden after the king, leading a war party is normal. Daveth and Jory cannot have objections - Daveth is a condemned thief, and Jory is a Highever subject, calling a Cousland "My Lord". The same about Alistair. Even if Alistair is a bit older, the new recruit is practically the fifth most important man in Ferelden, after Cailan, Loghain , Bryce and Fergus Cousland. For such a high ranking noble it`s custom to be invited by the King to the Strategical Council, even if he`s just a new Grey Warden. The problem is, for the other origins this viewpoint does not stand, except perhaps for an Aeducan prince. I cannot see how Alistair who is very suspicious about mages is so eager to entrust a Circle mage as the lead Warden. Or Daveth and Jory accepting it. The same about a Brosca castless dwarf, who was never topside and knows nothing about darkspawn. Not to mention an elf, especially the city elf. Who is not only despised and considered good only to be servant, but is`t also a murderer. You can say anything you want about Grey Wardens being all about equality and stuff, but in any military group leadership is earned, especially in the case of one without nobility ties. A Circle mage or a casteless dwarf have no experience with the outside world, no leadership or military skills, no way to know how to recognize danger in the Wild, or to use diplomacy. Who in all Ferelden will trust an elf as the Grey Warden leader, or a mage? It`s like electing a mage qunari as the new Divine. My guess is that Bioware started DA:O with only a Cousland as a protagonist (just like in case of Hawke), wrote most of the dialogues and made most of the scenes for a Cousland and then as an afterthought they added the other origins but without altering the game. They decided not to rewrite a great part of the game, thus maintaining the "one story" concept but created immersion problems for any non-Cousland protagonist. I've already said that I don't agree about your description of the Warden as "leading" at Ostagar. The Warden is simply following Duncan's orders: go to the Wilds, get the blood and the treaties. When you tell Duncan that surely they could have acquired some darkspawn blood before then, he straight up says that you need to learn to work together as a group as part of the Joining. If Alistair were leading the group, it's like he's doing the work for them, which kind of defeats the purpose. He's there to guide them to the ruins, and make sure they don't stumble on the darkspawn horde. Daveth and Jory are clearly not leading material either, they're both reluctant to even go into the Wilds to complete their first mission. As for Alistair, obviously believe what you want, but it's explicitly spelled out in game several times that he neither likes nor wants to lead, and that he was raised that way so he wouldn't become a threat to Cailan's rule. From a characterization standpoint, it's totally solid. And you're wrong about the non-Cousland origins being added as an "afterthought". Bioware was already talking about multiple playable races at E3 2004. You can't really claim your RPG to be a "spiritual successor" to BG without a playable mage class either.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 16:43:21 GMT
I've already said that I don't agree about your description of the Warden as "leading" at Ostagar. The Warden is simply following Duncan's orders: go to the Wilds, get the blood and the treaties. When you tell Duncan that surely they could have acquired some darkspawn blood before then, he straight up says that you need to learn to work together as a group as part of the Joining. If Alistair were leading the group, it's like he's doing the work for them, which kind of defeats the purpose. He's there to guide them to the ruins, and make sure they don't stumble on the darkspawn horde. Daveth and Jory are clearly not leading material either, they're both reluctant to even go into the Wilds to complete their first mission. As for Alistair, obviously believe what you want, but it's explicitly spelled out in game several times that he neither likes nor wants to lead, and that he was raised that way so he wouldn't become a threat to Cailan's rule. From a characterization standpoint, it's totally solid. And you're wrong about the non-Cousland origins being added as an "afterthought". Bioware was already talking about multiple playable races at E3 2004. You can't really claim your RPG to be a "spiritual successor" to BG without a playable mage class either. The fact that "I've already said that I don't agree about your description of the Warden as "leading" at Ostagar" is your viewpoint. I said I`m glad it worked for you, and stated it doesn`t work for me. You have a problem with this? I have the same right to an opinion as you. I don`t understand your position. Alistair is saying several times that he doesn`t want to lead, to be king, to have any responsibility. And I can understand his viewpoint, as his forced stance about the throne. But he is a Grey Warden now, and after Ostagar the surviving senior GW, with the leadership responsibility. His attitude doesn`t make any sense when the other surviving Grey Warden is barely qualified to wander around and talk to Ferelden people - like a Cirle mage, a casteless dwarf or any elf. It`s like bringing an Eskimo from Greenland and tasked him to solve a Wall Street stock exchange crash, while a junior stock trader is available but doesn`t want the job. It doesn`t make sense to me, neither the express request from Cailan for the new Warden to be present, BUT NOT ALISTAIR. You can say that Cailan was just impressed by the new Warden, but I think a city elf "fresh" murderer is more like an insult for the Council. If Bioware planned for multiple races as protagonists for DA:O since 2004, they did a poor job to accommodate them. Many elements from DA:O main plot make perfect sense for a Cousland, but not so for other characters. For instance, the entire mission to cure Eamon. A high noble will consider Eamon a big asset against Loghain, while a Dalish would most likely see it as a big waste of time. As I said, I`m glad that the main story of DA:O has no protagonist empowering issues for you. Unfortunately, it`s not the case for me. Since this is a thread about the RPG formula, empowering the protagonist is one potential problem to be discussed.
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Evamitchelle
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Post by Evamitchelle on Feb 20, 2017 17:10:52 GMT
The fact that "I've already said that I don't agree about your description of the Warden as "leading" at Ostagar" is your viewpoint. I said I`m glad it worked for you, and stated it doesn`t work for me. You have a problem with this? I have the same right to an opinion as you. I don`t understand your position. Yes. You can tell that it's my viewpoint by the fact that I used "I" in the sentence. Twice. I don't see what's your problem here. You said something, I disagreed and explained why. That's generally how things go on a forum. Alistair is saying several times that he doesn`t want to lead, to be king, to have any responsibility. And I can understand his viewpoint, as his forced stance about the throne. But he is a Grey Warden now, and after Ostagar the surviving senior GW, with the leadership responsibility. His attitude doesn`t make any sense when the other surviving Grey Warden is barely qualified to wander around and talk to Ferelden people - like a Cirle mage, a casteless dwarf or any elf. It`s like bringing an Eskimo from Greenland and tasked him to solve a Wall Street stock exchange crash, while a junior stock trader is available but doesn`t want the job. It doesn`t make sense to me, neither the express request from Cailan for the new Warden to be present, BUT NOT ALISTAIR. You can say that Cailan was just impressed by the new Warden, but I think a city elf "fresh" murderer is more like an insult for the Council. Sounds more like you're talking about a character flaw in Alistair rather than a plot hole. Alistair foisting responsibility onto the Warden (and then subsequently criticizing them for not making the decisions he wanted them to make) is a shitty thing to do. But it's not like he's got much more "real-life" experience himself. He was in the Wardens only 6 months, and he was a Templar in training for half his life. He hasn't exactly been traipsing around Ferelden talking to people either. If Bioware planned for multiple races as protagonists for DA:O since 2004, they did a poor job to accommodate them. Many elements from DA:O main plot make perfect sense for a Cousland, but not so for other characters. For instance, the entire mission to cure Eamon. A high noble will consider Eamon a big asset against Loghain, while a Dalish would most likely see it as a big waste of time. As I said, I`m glad that the main story of DA:O has no protagonist empowering issues for you. Unfortunately, it`s not the case for me. Since this is a thread about the RPG formula, empowering the protagonist is one potential problem to be discussed. I never said that DAO didn't have "protagonist empowering issues" for me. As a matter of fact, I pointed out two specific examples I had a problem with (and two examples that I thought were handled better). I just think Alistair ceding authority to the Warden is not one of them, or at least nowhere near the largest one.
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adrianbc
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 20, 2017 17:42:54 GMT
Yes. You can tell that it's my viewpoint by the fact that I used "I" in the sentence. Twice. I don't see what's your problem here. You said something, I disagreed and explained why. That's generally how things go on a forum. Sounds more like you're talking about a character flaw in Alistair rather than a plot hole. Alistair foisting responsibility onto the Warden (and then subsequently criticizing them for not making the decisions he wanted them to make) is a shitty thing to do. But it's not like he's got much more "real-life" experience himself. He was in the Wardens only 6 months, and he was a Templar in training for half his life. He hasn't exactly been traipsing around Ferelden talking to people either. I never said that DAO didn't have "protagonist empowering issues" for me. As a matter of fact, I pointed out two specific examples I had a problem with (and two examples that I thought were handled better). I just think Alistair ceding authority to the Warden is not one of them, or at least nowhere near the largest one. I agree with you about all points . I don`t see Alistair`s position as a plot hole, and I understand his position of being an abandoned child, never trusted with anything worthwhile, until Duncan. Alistair is well-written and credible. His position at the Lothering discussion with Morrigan and the protagonist is also credible. It`s just a "convenient" way for Bioware to put the Warden in the lead, without even a chance to say something like: "Man, you are the senior Grey Warden here, act like one! This is not the time to go hiding into a hole and wait for the Blight to end! This is how you want to preserve the memory of Duncan? By acting like a child? What do you think Duncan would have done in your position? What he would have wanted you to do?" Or something like that. Just like a Diplomatic Hawke`s mobilizing speech in that Wounded Coast Evets Marauders ambush. Even more in case of a dwarf: "I`m fresh on the surface, I know nothing about this Ferelden, Lothering and whatever. And you want me to lead?" Alistair`s reaction about leadership is well in accord with his personality and consistent with his behavior. It`s just a bit too extreme for me, because these are not normal times, but a Blight. Acting like a child and putting all responsibility on the Warden`s sholders does not help the GW`s cause. At least a Warden should have been able to give him a wake up speech...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 20, 2017 18:32:19 GMT
I mean, you can play Geralt as not giving a fuck about either woman, or even that he remembered Yenn and then dropped Triss like a cold turkey. The dilemma he uses is self created in his head, just like mine are. Not just in his head, Triss and Yenn's too. It takes two, or in this case, three to tango. It's not like Triss hasn't given Geralt a ton of reasons not to trust her, and Geralt still has scars from all the times he's run afoul of Yenn's prickly pride. I think the gist of the EC point is that, within the context of a story where you are inhabiting a pre-defined character -- rather than roleplaying an OC, they did an excellent job of representing a relationship dilemma burdened with historical baggage. Just like in real life.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 20, 2017 18:42:08 GMT
I almost completely disagree with much of what the article says. As others here have said, I have no desire to play storyless rpgs, in which I'm the local baker, with baker related issues and a family to have to deal with. ergh, I couldn't imagine anything worse, thats pretty much my life If people want to play something like that = the sims. I've seen a lot of comments like this. It's natural to polarize things to extremes, that's what humans, but I don't think the author of the article literally meant just the mundane life of a carpenter's apprentice or the village baker. That's just the starting point to make the point that there are other stories out there besides The Chosen One. Here's food for thought. Do you agree that in the Lord or the Rings, Frodo was the "Chosen One"? The one the fate of the world relied on, yes? So what I'm saying is, why can't we play Samwise instead? Nobody is more prosaic and boring than Samwise, pre-Party, but you can't argue that he didn't have an interesting story or adventure. Or Aragorn? Or Gandalf? Just because they are less important than the Chosen One, doesn't mean they don't have an interesting role to play. Maybe the author of the article went too far with their examples, but I hope I can get everyone to broaden their focus a bit beyond the Chosen One vs. village baker extremes. Think more like one or two steps down from the Chosen One, instead of going all the way to the bottom of the ladder. Something more along the lines of Jack in Bioshock -- not the best example, because he's later revealed to be somebody more than he thinks he is, but a step in the right direction.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 20, 2017 19:13:54 GMT
CRPGs used to do this better. The article even mentions Ultima IV (the greatest CRPG of all time, in my opinion).
This modern reduction of all problems to combat-based solutions is a fairly recent development. It shouldn't be hard to undo it.
But they're making a mistake when they suggest the player shouldn't be free to create his own character. I would love to play a carpenter's apprentice, and I do routinely construct backstories like that for my characters. My favourite Skyrim character was a child runaway who, after living on the streets across Cyrodiil, was returning to Skyrim to try to reconcile with her family.
This has also always been, to me, the appeal of MMORPGs - the chance to fill a niche in a world that is not designed just for you. So when people described DAI as a single-player MMO, I thought that was high praise.
I agree with the article that the game should react more to what you do, but the way to do that is not to restrict what you can do.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 20, 2017 19:48:10 GMT
I'd agree that there is nothing wrong with making you a local hero rather than a Chosen One saviour of the world; essentially that was the case with Hawke - hence the title "Champion of Kirkwall" All the things we did in DA2 were pretty much on a local level, although we did release the next world threat in the DLC. Actually Hawke's logic for asking to be left in the Fade in DAI rather annoyed me because it implied a greater importance that bordered on the "chosen one" idea. In Legacy Hawke was just the chump who got sucked into releasing Corypheus but to my mind the responsibility for him always lay with the Grey Wardens. Likewise the idea that Stroud/Alistair/Loghain was the only person capable of rebuilding the Wardens. So it is not just the PC that seems to be given inflated importance in the fate of the world.
To be honest, harking back to Baldurs Gate, I was slightly disappointed to find that my character was "special" and not a regular person. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the series but actually preferred it with later offerings in the Forgotten Realms setting when I was just an ordinary person trying to make the best of things with no special powers to help me and no dark legacy to burden me. In DAO even if they did make the Warden have more importance than you would assume would be the case, they didn't have any special powers to begin with, just something about their personality and abilities that impressed Duncan enough to want to recruit them. Even the powers you were meant to have acquired in the joining didn't have any significance for 99% of the game. It was your status as a Grey Warden that made people respect you and it was emphasised that this was what allowed people to overlook the fact you were from the "wrong" race or background. The fact that you could come from any background emphasised the fact that you weren't the "chosen one" but just someone who got unintentionally mixed up in the events. Likewise Hawke.
So I think the distinction needs to be made between "Chosen One" as in having something special, like the anchor, which means that no one else can do what you can, and a person who simply assumes importance through the way the plot is written. The former is always going to lend itself to a plot where you are saving the world, whereas the latter can adapt to either a "hero of the world" or "local hero" scenario.
I would agree, though, that you do need something to aim for, whether it is saving the locality from some evil power or trying to raise your status in the world. I'd much rather be saving the world than wandering round making collections of bottles or whatever the latest hobby is meant to be.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 20, 2017 21:48:44 GMT
I read this article earlier. I completely agree with the notion of BioWare's "stroke the player's ego" stories being fucking tired and ineffective. I think allowing us to create our own protagonist is cool but I agree that it's more interesting to play as a role than to self-insert yourself, I just personally like the customization of face and hair and gender as well as background but for my last 3 playthroughs of any given BioWare game I actually picked those options based on what I thought would be interesting to explore rather than how I see myself. Obviously, I think there's a room for both but I'm seriously tired of Mike Laidlaw's archaic design principles about "empowering the player". Making choices is cool but not at the expense of believable sense, like when Cassandra decides you must be the leader because she's so faithful and that because she can't decide with her friends she asks her prisoner what he thinks as a strategy even though she's looking at a potential killer of the most holy living figure, Justinia. All of those things are probably not something the writers decided. It sounds more like some of the design team stepped in and went "But wait, the player has no say, we can't have that! Make THEM decide what you should do. We have to make the player special!" You can see this in the derpy video they made where Patrick Weekes and Laidlaw play cards while discussing story on BioWare Base over at Youtube. Mike Laidlaw is pretty obsessed about "empowering the player". It's by-the-numbers and tired. They need to go back to the direction they were taking with DA2 whilist expanding the scope and customization. There's a lot of layers to "empowering" though. I mean, I don' t think DA2 failed because Hawke wasn't out to save the universe, it's because Hawke had so little agency he/she couldn't even visit more than three rooms in his/her house. We had to take a stand in the mage/templar crisis because "But Thou Must" when some players wanted to go "Screw this, I'm outta here!" I suppose that's what makes "save the world" such a common trope since, regardless of motivation, if the world blows up, everyone loses. So yeah, the idea of being your character can be greatly empowering without being a Chosen One.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 20, 2017 22:03:37 GMT
To be honest, harking back to Baldurs Gate, I was slightly disappointed to find that my character was "special" and not a regular person. I completely agree with this. I would much rather my character be special by virtue of what he does, not by virtue of what happens to him.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 20, 2017 22:13:10 GMT
The Inquisitor also was an accidental hero (was in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time), just as the Warden, it became clear in the Fade, Solas' ball made him so special, plus Cassandra and Leliana. This not so much different than the Warden's case. What would have happened if they completely idiots? The Inquisition organization would be capable to corrected, if this Chosen One fails, or if s/he is hopelessly dumb, then as final solution, they would be able to amputated is/her hand. Instead Warden, we have (only) Alistair... (But who know, what the reason of the accidents...)
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Post by Iakus on Feb 20, 2017 22:30:21 GMT
To be honest, harking back to Baldurs Gate, I was slightly disappointed to find that my character was "special" and not a regular person. I completely agree with this. I would much rather my character be special by virtue of what he does, not by virtue of what happens to him. Your character is "special" in terms of being a Bhaalspawn. But still one of hundreds or more. And may have lived out a perfectly normal life if Sarevok hadn't interfered.
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