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Post by Iakus on Feb 20, 2017 22:37:38 GMT
So I think the distinction needs to be made between "Chosen One" as in having something special, like the anchor, which means that no one else can do what you can, and a person who simply assumes importance through the way the plot is written. The former is always going to lend itself to a plot where you are saving the world, whereas the latter can adapt to either a "hero of the world" or "local hero" scenario. interesting comparison: DAI and Pillars of Eternity In both games you are the sole survivor of a supernatural event that imbues you with powers which are both personally dangerous to you and can help unravel a greater evil. In DAI, you are hailed as "the Herald of Andraste", get a nice castle, become the leader of a powerful movement to help reunite the Chantry, stop an ancient darkspawn and save the world. In Pillars of Eternity, you work alone or with your companions. You get a Keep, but it's cursed and you have to clear it out yourself (if you want), and most people aren't even aware of the threat.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 21, 2017 7:35:02 GMT
I almost completely disagree with much of what the article says. As others here have said, I have no desire to play storyless rpgs, in which I'm the local baker, with baker related issues and a family to have to deal with. ergh, I couldn't imagine anything worse, thats pretty much my life If people want to play something like that = the sims. I've seen a lot of comments like this. It's natural to polarize things to extremes, that's what humans, but I don't think the author of the article literally meant just the mundane life of a carpenter's apprentice or the village baker. That's just the starting point to make the point that there are other stories out there besides The Chosen One. Here's food for thought. Do you agree that in the Lord or the Rings, Frodo was the "Chosen One"? The one the fate of the world relied on, yes? So what I'm saying is, why can't we play Samwise instead? Nobody is more prosaic and boring than Samwise, pre-Party, but you can't argue that he didn't have an interesting story or adventure. Or Aragorn? Or Gandalf? Just because they are less important than the Chosen One, doesn't mean they don't have an interesting role to play. Maybe the author of the article went too far with their examples, but I hope I can get everyone to broaden their focus a bit beyond the Chosen One vs. village baker extremes. Think more like one or two steps down from the Chosen One, instead of going all the way to the bottom of the ladder. Something more along the lines of Jack in Bioshock -- not the best example, because he's later revealed to be somebody more than he thinks he is, but a step in the right direction. I kinda dislike LoTR's so I'm gonna skip that example I get what your saying and I can understand that perhaps, the author of the article used an extreme to emphasise a point. As I said previously, I'm happy enough with local issues, so long as they have some gravity, or more accurately, direction. Take the first Neverwinter Nights for example, now, not a great story and the gameplay was clunky as hell but we didn't play a "chosen one" we faced down against an ancient enemy, with world shattering goals, but we did so as simply a capable adventurer, with the right skills, in the right place, at the right time, to get things done. Thats great and I get that alot of people get fed up with the messianic fanfare and repetition that has surfaced in the last decade regarding the "chosen one" archetype. But we can play the character that isn't touched by fate, from local hero to saviour of the universe, all thats really different, is the story not telling you "your awesome!" So I don't get the gripe that some people have, what, Exactly, is it about being the chosen one, people don't like? Maybe people don't like the role, when it feels the role sn't needed or the story, suffers as a result of trying to conform to this idea. In large part since it has become the got-to staple for adding drama and a sense of importance to the player, even when the story, game world or characters, don't really warrant it use. But I for one, am not going to have a knee-jerk reaction against it's use, in the storys and games, in which it is done well and where it belongs. It comes down to developers needing to use the right "tools" for the right "job" so to speak. Rather than throwing it in, simply to make players feel awesome about their character. I would say, that game developers have fallen into a rut, when it comes to story telling in general, they seem to have a small and restrictive list of criteria they need to fulfil, in order to release a game they think the broadest range of people are likely to play and if that check list of criteria happen to have items on it, that have no right being used in the same product, well, to hell with it. "because our story needs to have dragons! and it needs to have mounts, and it needs to have a chosen one and it needs to have a super powered world shaking villain at every turn and it needs to have branching story lines and it needs to have....." and thus we get a bunch of samey games, as they all use the same formula, regardless of if and when certain story elements or even game features, work well together to form a compelling, well structured and meaningful whole. When it comes to game development. I'm always leery of those that speak about "breaking the mold" because what they are really saying is, "finding the next big feature that is going to get added to the bucket list of essential features for the genre for the next decade" I'm far more interested in hearing "I want to craft a cohesive and tight story, carefully choosing features that work towards building the world and story I want to tell" But apparantly, that doesn't sell as many games.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 21, 2017 7:45:55 GMT
So I think the distinction needs to be made between "Chosen One" as in having something special, like the anchor, which means that no one else can do what you can, and a person who simply assumes importance through the way the plot is written. The former is always going to lend itself to a plot where you are saving the world, whereas the latter can adapt to either a "hero of the world" or "local hero" scenario. interesting comparison: DAI and Pillars of Eternity In both games you are the sole survivor of a supernatural event that imbues you with powers which are both personally dangerous to you and can help unravel a greater evil. In DAI, you are hailed as "the Herald of Andraste", get a nice castle, become the leader of a powerful movement to help reunite the Chantry, stop an ancient darkspawn and save the world. In Pillars of Eternity, you work alone or with your companions. You get a Keep, but it's cursed and you have to clear it out yourself (if you want), and most people aren't even aware of the threat. That sounds like the same story. The only difference being the variation in fanfare and recognition within the story and by the game world itself. It's still telling the same tale. It's still has all the same elements. True DA:I and Pillars play very differently, but I think that comes more from the two studios approaching the same formula from different directions. Is it a case then, of people want to play the role of someone thrust into circumstance as opposed to being chosen for the role? Is it about feeling like the quest is one of their choice or one being made for them, by the narrator, so to speak?
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 21, 2017 9:16:27 GMT
That sounds like the same story. The only difference being the variation in fanfare and recognition within the story and by the game world itself. It's still telling the same tale. It's still has all the same elements. True DA:I and Pillars play very differently, but I think that comes more from the two studios approaching the same formula from different directions. Is it a case then, of people want to play the role of someone thrust into circumstance as opposed to being chosen for the role? Is it about feeling like the quest is one of their choice or one being made for them, by the narrator, so to speak? The Chosen One cliché is was used in many variations for RPG`s. BG1 and BG2-SOA had the same Bhaalspawn "Chosen One" protagonist, but s/he was more like cursed and viewed as a danger than heralded instantly as the ONE AND ONLY, THE GREAT SAVIOR HER/HIMSELF. For the most part of these games, our Bhaalspawn is more like fighting to stay alive than be concerned with the "saving the world" stuff. PoE has a similar "Cursed One" idea at its core, but combined with a "save the world" cliché. So there is a lot of difference between these two approaches. The "Chosen One" is a bit more extreme in DA:O and DA:I. True, here we don`t have a "Born Chosen" protagonist like the Bhaalspawn, but the Warden and Inquisitor are both "chosen" by circumstances. What makes the formula extreme here is the "instant empowering" threat. Both protagonists are like instantly teleported from zero to hero, with no journey, struggle, merit or anything else than: "God bless you are here! Now let`s get to work, your highness." This is annoying like hell for me. The companions in DA:O react more like passive followers - except for Morrigan and Alistair, but these only at one point for specific plot reasons. Now compare this with Hawke, who is TASKED by others most of DA2 rather than calling the shots, has companions with their own agenda (and they will pursue it with or without Hawke), who persuade people in power (Dumar, Meredith, Cullen, Arishok) rather than order them around, and who depends for the companions`s decisions to side with him in the showdown. AND has a lot of failures in her/his wake. In a way, we could consider every adventure RPG story as a "Chosen One" cliché by the fact that the protagonist is in the right spot at the right time. This sounds a bit extreme for me, and reductionist in the same time. Because thus we can conclude that all our fiction literature is just the story of the Chosen Ones in various disguises. I prefer a more restricted definition for the Chosen One cliché: A story about a protagonist recognized by the world (or major players) as instrumental for the outcome of events. Based on this definition, DA:O and DA:I both are a fit, DA2 and PoE not really. In DA2 Hawke is treated dismissively even after declared Champion. And prior to that, s/he was just a refugee / meddling noble. In PoE the Watcher is not recognized as instrumental for the plot by most of the characters, until the very end of the game. True, based on her/his visions we as players know about this "Chosen One" thing. For me, both DA2 and PoE are alternatives for the "all empowering chosen one" cliché from DA:O and DA:I. DA2 is offering us the journey for power refused by the instant gratification of the other DA games. PoE is rather a shift of focus, from the immediate events to the uncovering of a hidden plot (in the vein of the Broken Sword series, or Icewind Dale RPG`s), so the Chosen One idea is losing it`s meaning. And I very much like the alternatives.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 21, 2017 11:12:24 GMT
Reading all this makes me pine for the days of "you and your friends sit comfortably in a tavern drinking ale and swapping tall tales when a hooded stranger approaches..."
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 21, 2017 11:23:56 GMT
Reading all this makes me pine for the days of "you and your friends sit comfortably in a tavern drinking ale and swapping tall tales when a hooded stranger approaches..." Quite right! And for instance in Icewind Dale, after such an opening tavern sequence, there was no "Chosen One" cliché, just a good story which unfolded step by step. Starting with baby steps and a few strange, intriguing but relatively small events. Then growing progressively into something bigger and bigger. Far from "We are all doomed!!! The world is ending! We`re done for!" starts, quickly followed by "Thanks the (insert appropriate God name) you`re here! Now everything will be JUUUST fine!". Such an approach is a good Ego massage, but has little other value...
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 21, 2017 12:10:04 GMT
Quite right! And for instance in Icewind Dale, after such an opening tavern sequence, there was no "Chosen One" cliché, just a good story which unfolded step by step. Starting with baby steps and a few strange, intriguing but relatively small events. Then growing progressively into something bigger and bigger. Far from "We are all doomed!!! The world is ending! We`re done for!" starts, quickly followed by "Thanks the (insert appropriate God name) you`re here! Now everything will be JUUUST fine!". Such an approach is a good Ego massage, but has little other value... Epic games are fun and all, they really are! Even DA2, while not being about The End of the World (TM) is still set in a large civilized city ripe with politicking where Hawke does become a kind of moral authority and someone the people look up to. Even this game isn't completely free of the Chosen One narrative. Of course, it's a good reversal on our expectations that Hawke ultimately fails to improve things, but the trappings of the genre are still here... As a one-time player of D&D, what I'm talking about is the difference between Gygax-era D&D and what came after. For those who don't know, early D&D was heavily influenced by the likes of Howard, Leiber, and Vance, meaning Conan, Fafhrd, Dying Earth scenarios, sword&sorcery, savagery, decadence of civilization, protagonists of dubious morals interacting with a grim world of base instincts, filthy taverns, fallen idols, and unpleasant people. These themes were exemplified by the de facto default setting of Greyhawk. Later on, the game retooled itself along the lines of heroic and/or epic fiction, more closely aligned with LotR and represented by settings such as Forgotten Realms and, to a much greater extent, Dragonlance. Heroes became, well, more-or-less heroic good guys fighting to save the world from dark lords and much of that early sense of decay, personal and civilizational, as well as of primal danger got lost in the transition. Now I'm not saying these worldbuilding assumptions are necessarily better or more valid. It's only that sometimes I really miss those simpler days and simpler worlds. They appeal to human psyche on a more basic and existential level. They are raw and rough around the edges because they don't strive to explain why the world is the way it is. It simply is and there's not much our protagonists can do to change it; all they can do is try to survive it. There's a reason Howard and Lovecraft, who wrote their stories almost a century ago, are still so beloved and are experiencing something of a renaissance.
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 21, 2017 12:21:04 GMT
Reading all this makes me pine for the days of "you and your friends sit comfortably in a tavern drinking ale and swapping tall tales when a hooded stranger approaches..." "Drats! I'd take care of the problem myself, but I stepped into a rabbit hole and cracked my ankle!" Off to the Pen and Paper thread!
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 21, 2017 12:37:16 GMT
Epic games are fun and all, they really are! Even DA2, while not being about The End of the World (TM) is still set in a large civilized city ripe with politicking where Hawke does become a kind of moral authority and someone the people look up to. Even this game isn't completely free of the Chosen One narrative. Of course, it's a good reversal on our expectations that Hawke ultimately fails to improve things, but the trappings of the genre are still here... As a one-time player of D&D, what I'm talking about is the difference between Gygax-era D&D and what came after. For those who don't know, early D&D was heavily influenced by the likes of Howard, Leibner, and Vance, meaning Conan, Fafhrd, Dying Earth scenarios, sword&sorcery, savagery, decadence of civilization, protagonists of dubious morals interacting with a grim world of base instincts, filthy taverns, fallen idols, and unpleasant people. These themes were exemplified by the de facto default setting of Greyhawk. Later on, the game retooled itself along the lines of heroic and/or epic fiction, more closely aligned with LotR and represented by settings such as Forgotten Realms and, to a much greater extent, Dragonlance. Heroes became, well, more-or-less heroic good guys fighting to save the world from dark lords and much of that early sense of decay, personal and civilizational, as well as of primal danger got lost in the transition. Now I'm not saying these worldbuilding assumptions are necessarily better or more valid. It's only that sometimes I really miss those simpler days and simpler worlds. They appeal to human psyche on a more basic and existential level. They are raw and rough around the edges because they don't strive to explain why the world is the way it is. It simply is and there's not much our protagonists can do to change it; all they can do is try to survive it. There's a reason Howard and Lovecraft, who wrote their stories almost a century ago, are still so beloved and are experiencing something of a renaissance. There is Tyranny, a RPG from Obsidian, set in a bronze age - early iron age world, already conquered by a villain. I did not finish the game yet (stopped because I disliked the many forced binary decisions) but it seems to be alongside the idea of decadence and savagery. There are also remains from an ancient and powerful, more advanced civilization. Based on my early opinion the game is far from perfect, but nevertheless a good deal different from the usual heroic fantasy RPG.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 21, 2017 12:45:56 GMT
There is Tyranny, a RPG from Obsidian, set in a bronze age - early iron age world, already conquered by a villain. I did not finish the game yet (stopped because I disliked the many forced binary decisions) but it seems to be alongside the idea of decadence and savagery. There are also remains from an ancient and powerful, more advanced civilization. Based on my early opinion the game is far from perfect, but nevertheless a good deal different from the usual heroic fantasy RPG. Tyranny is definitely on my "to do" list.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 21, 2017 17:55:32 GMT
I completely agree with this. I would much rather my character be special by virtue of what he does, not by virtue of what happens to him. Your character is "special" in terms of being a Bhaalspawn. But still one of hundreds or more. And may have lived out a perfectly normal life if Sarevok hadn't interfered. Sure. But I think it would be better if there's nothing special about the PC at all, and he rises up to become whatever he does entirely on his own merits. I'd love to see an RPG where we start as a peasant of our own choosing, and can grow from that to become basically anything, from a merchant to a criminal mastermind to a high priest to an evil warlock to an ordinary member of the city guard.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 21, 2017 19:01:33 GMT
Your character is "special" in terms of being a Bhaalspawn. But still one of hundreds or more. And may have lived out a perfectly normal life if Sarevok hadn't interfered. Sure. But I think it would be better if there's nothing special about the PC at all, and he rises up to become whatever he does entirely on his own merits. I'd love to see an RPG where we start as a peasant of our own choosing, and can grow from that to become basically anything, from a merchant to a criminal mastermind to a high priest to an evil warlock to an ordinary member of the city guard. Wasn't the first Dungeon Siege game like that? You start out as an ordinary farmer defending your land and grow into the savior of the kingdom simply by being that hard to kill? At any rate, as I've said before, I think, with a cRPG certain allowances have to be made. Much like a D&D module, there is a story, and you, the player, must be willing to follow that story. There is no point in playing Against the Giants if you are unwilling to go... against the giants. Of course, a reason to do so should be made available. Which is probably why so many of these games revolve around saving the world. Imminent death is a pretty universal motivation to be proactive.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 21, 2017 19:56:53 GMT
Wasn't the first Dungeon Siege game like that? You start out as an ordinary farmer defending your land and grow into the savior of the kingdom simply by being that hard to kill? Yes. Dungeon Siege did this really well. If only there had been something other to do rather than follow rigidly linear path toward a single objective. But I do also really like how Dungeon Siege's combat system worked, and that victory wasn't assured (death was entirety possible, from inattention, recklessness, or even just bad planning). I still play Dungeon Siege. Here I disagree. Against the Giants just tells us about a location and events in the world. What we do with that should be up to us. Yes, we might go against the giants, but we might also persuade someone else to do it in order to get him killed. Or we could try to ally with the giants and lead them down out of the mountains to conquer the Duchy of Urnst.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 21, 2017 20:02:16 GMT
Here I disagree. Against the Giants just tells us about a location and events in the world. What we do with that should be up to us. Yes, we might go against the giants, but we might also persuade someone else to do it in order to get him killed. Or we could try to ally with the giants and lead them down out of the mountains to conquer the Duchy of Urnst. But you are still interacting with the giants (even if by proxy). You aren't, say, opening up an inn. Or farming. Or hunting bears. You might do this stuff AS WELL. But the giants are still the primary focus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 20:21:49 GMT
This article is too big for me. Wow, what makes a good RPG... I can't predict what story-lined game I would like or not.
Actually, G.R.R.M Martin pointed it out.
NOT BORING.
The character I am playing, I want to get a choice of what it is, boy, girl, human or potato. if I look at the game, and the choice is to play Geralt or not to play the game, I will not play the game. Learn about myself wearing a mask? Ah, nope. It's a video-game, and I want it to be my blasted Mary-Sue, not some Polish or Japanese dude's Mary-Sue. Those dudes got paid for their Mary-Sues, mine are a labor of love and my only reward for being creative. Don't you go adding insult to injury for paying him to do mine for me! I am every bit as capable of it.
Then, that character gotta pass the companion/NPC test. In other words, if I turn the main guy/gal into the NPC would it make me want to keep it in my party and get his or her story if I was playing another character? If s/he starts as a janitor or a vegetable seller, it gotta be the most incredible menial laborer out there. And why should s/he be a vegetable seller? Are we really afraid of him or her to be something actually fascinating to start with? Blank canvas does not have to be dusty-gray & boring.
Companions. Want that. Non-negotiable.
The world cannot be snooze-worthy for me to like a game. If you are considering another dwarf-elf-human world in another shade of Tolkien, you have to be BioWARE for me to give it a try. If you are BiOWARE, please do something else. ANYTHING. The white ships had sailed to the West. Gone. Done. Let them stay there. Sorry, my dear child, who'd just discovered the Lord of the Rings.
make the game's animations awesome looking, so it is just as exciting as that first fireball you have seen animated. Make it rewarding to play for ye average human being (older than 16) after you learn a few tricks, and add cewl moves and as many of them as possible so you don't sit back and wait between each CD.
All and all, just makes something that keeps me from turning in early.
You, the lucky bastards with creative jobs, why the heck do you need an advice from the less fortunate ones?
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 21, 2017 20:25:11 GMT
Here I disagree. Against the Giants just tells us about a location and events in the world. What we do with that should be up to us. Yes, we might go against the giants, but we might also persuade someone else to do it in order to get him killed. Or we could try to ally with the giants and lead them down out of the mountains to conquer the Duchy of Urnst. But you are still interacting with the giants (even if by proxy). You aren't, say, opening up an inn. Or farming. Or hunting bears. You might do this stuff AS WELL. But the giants are still the primary focus. The giants are a big thing that's happening in the world. If you don't fight them, what happens? Maybe they attack the Duchy themselves. The world should have events in it, certainly. I'd just rather the game not decide for me what my character's role in those events is.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 21, 2017 20:30:09 GMT
But you are still interacting with the giants (even if by proxy). You aren't, say, opening up an inn. Or farming. Or hunting bears. You might do this stuff AS WELL. But the giants are still the primary focus. The giants are a big thing that's happening in the world. If you don't fight them, what happens? Maybe they attack the Duchy themselves. The world should have events in it, certainly. I'd just rather the game not decide for me what my character's role in those events is. And if they attack the Duchy, what happens to your inn, your farm, your shop, etc? I would argue that in choosing to play a given module/game, you have already made the choice what your role will be. At least on a meta level. The player is always "special" in that they are the protagonist. For good or for ill, the world and its problems exist for you. What you have to decide is how you will approach it. That's different if you're playing a purely home-brewed campaign, where the players and the GM themselves decide what might make for an interesting campaign (and depending on how fast the GM can think on his or her feet)
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Post by Wildfire on Feb 21, 2017 21:37:46 GMT
A really interesting discussion. Some random unorganised thoughts about the subject: Thought it was interesting hearing praise for DA2 which has been rare in past despite my own love of that flawed masterpiece. Maybe the Skyrim era is passing somewhat where open world became the watchword. TW3 was the best attempt i've seen to marry story and open world but i think that's a very tricky task to reproduce. Yeah I completely agree. For me, the open world is really something of a curse, because I am not at all interested in (combat-heavy) exploring and that stuff. Personally I do enjoy more experimental games as well, and actually I don't have anything against playing a baker RPG or simply an RPG where I have to live in the 21st century and do normal stuff that I could do also in real life. For me, it's all about immersion, and there's no reason why I could not be immersed in the life of, say, an American college student or a Japanese engineer. So I do raise it up for anyone who's willing to go beyond the conventional stuff and do something new. That being said, I have nothing against the usual DA-style stuff per se. Although as I've made clear elsewhere on this forum, I strongly prefer the DA2 approach over the DAO and DAI approach. Important person is fine, but that "be the chosen one and save the world from doom" stuff is kinda old-fashioned and should be put to rest asap. However, unless BW pulls something incredible off with Solas, I fear that DA4 will once again trod the usual paths... I also think that the point about combat is actually pretty spot-on. RPG-style continuous combat in random dungeons hardly interests me, it's always more about the story. I do like challenging combat, but I don't care about slaughtering millions of darkspawn or anything like that. It always bores me down. In fact, the model of the Shadow of Colossus where you only had to kill like 10 unique bosses and no meaningless minions in between was very good and I would actually like to see that in a more conventional, DA-style fantasy RPG at some point. So what I do support is cutting down the quantity of combat drastically while improving the quality of each individual encounter. For me, it's very hard to assess the Witcher 3 with any measure of objectiveness, because I was so disappointed by the game content-wise. Moreover, I've come to despise the franchise and its worldview. But what the game did well was the side-quests - they were all made with care as opposed to the ones in DAI. And the structure of its main plot was also more interesting than in DAI, whose plot was too predictable and it simply kept building up from the beginning towards the end. On the other hand, the main story arc in TW3 was full of surprises and did not progress from beginning to the end in a linear fashion. However, the same can be said of DA2, even if the Act 3 felt a bit rushed, probably due to EA pressure. For me, DA2 strikes the perfect balance in many ways: Hawke is not a blank sheet, but you can decide how they react and customise them to a big degree; they are not a chosen one saving the world, but still an important person trying to do their best to make a difference. It has a good, unpredictable story arc, with really touching and important real-world themes (saving the world is not a real world theme, sadly), and it has the best companions ever (completely lacking in TW3, btw). The only downside is the at times overflowing combat. I think one of the strengths of BW games lies in their companions, and I hope they will never give that up. To sum it up: For me, DA2 remains the yardstick for "traditional" fantasy RPGs. And I do hope that game producers will be more ambitious in the future and that they will try to break some of the age-old conventions. I remain an optimist and I believe that the industry will slowly progress. In the meantime, I have nothing against playing the latest DA instalment
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Feb 21, 2017 22:01:57 GMT
Sarcastic Hawke is awesome. Purple Hawke is indeed awesome! Credit
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Feb 22, 2017 7:09:29 GMT
Well I agree that witcher 3 did a good job with a lot of it's side quests and that games with non world ending plot lines would be good, But I don't want a set protagonist, making and roleplaying your own character is a huge part of the fun, witcher games having a set protagonist is one of the reasons I'll never enjoy them as much as the dragon age ones.
I like how dragon age straddles the line between set protagonist and completely customizable blank slate. I can still make my own character (their appearance, personality, gender) but within a writer chosen background/s that they can then have interact with the story/world (unlike a completely blank slate).
Obviously we're in for atleast one more world ending/changing game because solas, but I'd like to see some more smaller scaled plotlines from DA.
Eg. Repel the invaders, rise to power in your city/country, reclaim lost thaigs, become the greatest pirate, unite your tribes, win a civil war etc.
And I think theres definately merit to the depth instead of breadth idea for side content.
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Post by Wynne on Feb 22, 2017 8:12:21 GMT
Don't agree with this article. For once, I felt like Inquisition was a subversion of the old tropes. Instead of being the super-duper chosen one, you are just some humble Carta thug/mercenary/noble/clan grunt who tries to meet at a diplomatic summit and stumbles blindly into an important event in history.
That kinda thing DOES happen.
Then, why do you become the leader? Because, basically, you're the one who got zapped with elven magic by accident and now people think you're this big hero when you're actually still just some random person jerked around by the powerful forces at work in your world. You DO have to earn the leadership role. People start spreading some nonsense about you, then you survive not only the Conclave but Corypheus--that IS significant even if it is dumb luck. Only after surviving Haven do your advisors poke you and go, "Hey, um, somebody kinda has to be a figurehead, and we have our jobs, so you're nominated, green-hand. Congratulations!" By the end of Trespasser, you've finally filled the big shoes you've been slapped into by life, as many leaders have probably felt. But all along, you were kind of a badass, and possibly a uniting force.
But I can't deny that in retrospect, I like Dragon Age 2's approach, too. You were just some scared kid running from the Blight. I didn't like that at first, but I do now. I could dig feeling that way in Tevinter--even though you'll probably end up being a recruited spy rather than just some simple slave, for instance.
If DA4 let me feel that sense of claustrophobia and desperation that DA2 did, but let me affect the game world more--like I felt DAI did--I'd be euphoric. I want the game to give me the opportunity to make astute, wise dialogue choices and have them recognized by the game world. That was one of the best things about Obsidian's games back in the day--being made to feel as if I'd been a good friend to someone (which I felt with Cassandra, Leliana, Dorian, and somewhat to Cullen as well.) Being made to feel like I'd changed someone's world (like I did with Solas, particularly in the romance but even as a friend because it means more when it's not even your culture, but you still understand and care.) I normally dislike playing a human, but when I can be a human mage that shows respect to other cultures and falls in love with a mage-phobic elf, as I did in DA2, that appeals to me greatly because it has significance to the characters.
Let me move people. Let me transcend their expectations. Let me talk the villain to death. And if I make just the right choices, let me save him. That is the kind of thing that amazes me, when it's based on skill and/or character. The best moments were when I chose an option that showed my hero had been observant about a character's needs, or that others' beliefs and opinions mattered to her. I liked petitioning Mythal. I liked trying to win over Taven. I loved impressing Solas, even more so when I wasn't an elf because it's so much harder. I loved having ideological arguments with Fenris and Anders. I loved rivalmancing.
Corypheus was a solid villain, but in the end, far from sophisticated in his thinking. On the other hand, Trespasser's villain, arguably the true villain all along, was so much more than that. Give me the chance to feel like I've been a 'rare and marvelous spirit', and that will move me like nothing else can.
I applaud the direction of the article's thinking, even if I disagree with them on the game. I do want to move away from the expected, and have the chance to play an unusually compassionate and insightful character, and have it feel very different from when I play a total asshole. I do feel DAI achieved this, but if DA4 did more, it would be a rare game and one I'd likely play to death.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 22, 2017 8:13:52 GMT
Tyranny is definitely on my "to do" list. Pillars of Eternity is also intriguing if you want to play a story set in a violent world. PoE can be played consistently in many different ways, thanks to the disposition and reputation systems. Disposition is about personality traits, and you have a full list with honesty & benevolence as one extreme, and cruelty & aggressive as the other. Reputation is about how different factions regard the protagonist. You can have a very positive reputation (Champion), a very bad one (Terror), or a mixed one (Dark Hero). There are 10 basic dispositions and 15 reputation variants to play with, and for instance you can have ranks in all 10 dispositions, based on your in-game reactions. As for the world itself, it`s not exactly "civilized". For instance, in the first village you are greeted by a tree full of hanged people. There are religious wars, violent cults, and you are able to sacrifice people or companions for power gains. PoE`s world is quite violent, and it was made worst by a relatively recent event. How you play PoE is very much up to you, and you have a large degree of freedom at your disposal.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 22, 2017 9:50:31 GMT
That sounds like the same story. The only difference being the variation in fanfare and recognition within the story and by the game world itself. It's still telling the same tale. It's still has all the same elements. True DA:I and Pillars play very differently, but I think that comes more from the two studios approaching the same formula from different directions. Is it a case then, of people want to play the role of someone thrust into circumstance as opposed to being chosen for the role? Is it about feeling like the quest is one of their choice or one being made for them, by the narrator, so to speak? The Chosen One cliché is was used in many variations for RPG`s. BG1 and BG2-SOA had the same Bhaalspawn "Chosen One" protagonist, but s/he was more like cursed and viewed as a danger than heralded instantly as the ONE AND ONLY, THE GREAT SAVIOR HER/HIMSELF. For the most part of these games, our Bhaalspawn is more like fighting to stay alive than be concerned with the "saving the world" stuff. PoE has a similar "Cursed One" idea at its core, but combined with a "save the world" cliché. So there is a lot of difference between these two approaches. The "Chosen One" is a bit more extreme in DA:O and DA:I. True, here we don`t have a "Born Chosen" protagonist like the Bhaalspawn, but the Warden and Inquisitor are both "chosen" by circumstances. What makes the formula extreme here is the "instant empowering" threat. Both protagonists are like instantly teleported from zero to hero, with no journey, struggle, merit or anything else than: "God bless you are here! Now let`s get to work, your highness." This is annoying like hell for me. The companions in DA:O react more like passive followers - except for Morrigan and Alistair, but these only at one point for specific plot reasons. Now compare this with Hawke, who is TASKED by others most of DA2 rather than calling the shots, has companions with their own agenda (and they will pursue it with or without Hawke), who persuade people in power (Dumar, Meredith, Cullen, Arishok) rather than order them around, and who depends for the companions`s decisions to side with him in the showdown. AND has a lot of failures in her/his wake. In a way, we could consider every adventure RPG story as a "Chosen One" cliché by the fact that the protagonist is in the right spot at the right time. This sounds a bit extreme for me, and reductionist in the same time. Because thus we can conclude that all our fiction literature is just the story of the Chosen Ones in various disguises. I prefer a more restricted definition for the Chosen One cliché: A story about a protagonist recognized by the world (or major players) as instrumental for the outcome of events. Based on this definition, DA:O and DA:I both are a fit, DA2 and PoE not really. In DA2 Hawke is treated dismissively even after declared Champion. And prior to that, s/he was just a refugee / meddling noble. In PoE the Watcher is not recognized as instrumental for the plot by most of the characters, until the very end of the game. True, based on her/his visions we as players know about this "Chosen One" thing. For me, both DA2 and PoE are alternatives for the "all empowering chosen one" cliché from DA:O and DA:I. DA2 is offering us the journey for power refused by the instant gratification of the other DA games. PoE is rather a shift of focus, from the immediate events to the uncovering of a hidden plot (in the vein of the Broken Sword series, or Icewind Dale RPG`s), so the Chosen One idea is losing it`s meaning. And I very much like the alternatives. This is what I'm trying to figure out. What real difference is there, between the smaller, more personal RPG, in which the stakes are lower and the recognition we recieve within the game world are more mundane, compared to those games in which the stakes are of the highest magnitude and the world treats the player as the chosen one, last hope of mankind. Because I do think that it's simply a matter of degrees. It's the same formula but on different scales and will always be the same formula, if a specific narrative, with a story to tell, is going to be involved. The crux is how well that narrative is built, how quickly we progress from nothing, to the center of the universe, if the narrative reaches the apex of the formula. I do think that many developers of cRPG's have fallen into the habit, of rushig through the journey, thereby taking away something intrinsic and worthwhile from the experience and that is what many people are really urked about. It's not the formula that people are fed up with, but the poor handling of it, the use of the same shortcuts, predictable plot hooks and scenarios, that leave a cRPG experience feeling samey, contrived and hollow. The unfailing reliance on the BIG STORY, over the little ones that ought to precede it, but more often then not, don't anymore. I have no doubt that the experience between these two extremes can be profound. I concede that the big story has been done to death within the genre, particularly recently, but that when you get right down to it, it is the same thing. Developers then need to be looking at narrative structure, pacing, consistancy and plausability, within the story they seek to tell, to create something that is actually engaging. Rather than the fast and furious bang and sparkle, that leaves players going "wow!" but then on deeper reflection, once the adrenaline enducing thunder has worn of, feeling dissatisfied and let down. Like they have been rushed through the front door, given a quick glimpse of the structures furnishings, and thrown out the back door with a gift bag full of wet lettuce. That said, I can't help but feel that what some players are trully yearning for, is more of a character driven, simulation, perhaps with emergent stories within the simulation, but not being the primary focus of such. No overarching story at all. But smaller adventures within a setting designed for such. Much like early crpgs were. This is in large part as they were based upon table top rpg's. Already fully created and fleshed out worlds, with already present stories available to choose from, ranging in scope and magnitude. I posit that it is far easier to create that more personable, intimate rpg experience, when a developer is utilising an already crafted IP, with it's own stories already crafted before hand. Theres already a market there, they can afford to take the risk of writing more reserved narratives, with less flash and thunder. I personally found the IP of Pillars to be awfully bland. The story too didn't do much for me either, Tyranny had promise but I feel that it too fell into "saviour of the world" role, without realising that it was doing so. Entirely new IP's that the developer was rushing to establish, rather than allowing to let it grow more fluidly and gain the momentum they needed, in order create a fully realised world with fully realised landscapes, in which players could create characters and stories that have scope from both large and small perspectives.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Feb 22, 2017 10:13:11 GMT
And if they attack the Duchy, what happens to your inn, your farm, your shop, etc? Bad things, I suspect. Some choices may well lead to a very short game. I have to disagree with that. Every person is the protagonist of his own story. That doesn't make him special. But more, the world should not feel like it exists for you. There should be opportunities to be left behind by the "story" the devs are trying to tell (much as my favourite Warden was when Sten killed him). Further, I would argue that Hawke was not the protagonist of DA2. If there was one protagonist across the whole game, it was Anders, not Hawke. There's no reason why a CRPG can't do that. There exist simulationist games. Also, a strategy game like Crusader Kings II makes for a terrific macro-level RPG.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 22, 2017 10:16:06 GMT
One old school table top RPG that I think creates a perfect environment for the simulation/rpg hybrid, would be the classic world of darkness, centered on the games of Vampire:the Masquerade, Mage:The Ascension and Werewolf. These RPGs had huge, fully realised worlds, choke full of lore and established characters and events that are all taking place throughout the game worlds, regardless of a players actions. The player creates a supernatural PC that gets dropped into this world. Sure each one had a BIG STORY in the background (in the classic worlds iterations, white wolf did away with it in the reboots) but it was a backdrop, a constant threat but hardly the main focus of the players, who's characters became embroiled in the everday details of supernatural life, from running erands for more powerful supernatural agents to amassing their own power base, expanding their own learning. Making and breaking enemies along the way. Creating their own adventures. There was an end game scenario, very end of the world, but the reality was that no matter how powerful the players became, chances were good you likely wouldn't survive it, let alone stop it.
I think this is the kind of experience people are looking for. A world that feels real, in that the character you play is a PART of the world in which these stories are taking place and not the CENTER of the world and it's stories. Sure you might get close to the middle of the story, you might have a large hand in deciding fates, but it was never about the character you play, being the story, the true story was the characters you meet, the things that you do on the journey and what you can accomplish with these massive events taking place all around you, that would take place, regardless of whether your character is present or not.
This is the angle, I feel cRPG developers fail to really get to grips with, especially when they are dealing with a new IP.
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