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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 21, 2017 19:46:50 GMT
Token as in Tokenism Definition: "Tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to be inclusive to members of minority groups"Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TokenismNot my opinion. I heard someone make this argument recently. It struck me as a little bit racist. Not to me cuz I aint' black, but because I think it's untrue and only something one would say if they find it peculiar that he happens to be black. My argument for it: First featured black guy in the narrative... I guess? My argument against it: His character nor loyality quest had nothing to do with his race. Anyway, I hadn't thought of this before. What does BSN think?
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Post by Serza on Feb 24, 2017 7:35:53 GMT
Definitely a dick if romanced. Hard to say anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 13:57:38 GMT
actually, Valygar came before Jacob, and Dynaheir was even earlier, though she was more purple...
Felix Iresso is a black character in SWTOR and have the sweetest romance. Koth is Liam's pre-cursor.
So, BioWare has male black characters here and there, and tbh I don't feel they are there just to be tokens. I guess Vivienne is black in Inquisition? I have never romanced Jacob, but I liked his story.
What I have not seen in a BioWare's game since Yoshimo and Jade Empire, is the Asians on the crew by some reason.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 25, 2017 17:03:44 GMT
actually, Valygar came before Jacob, and Dynaheir was even earlier, though she was more purple... Felix Iresso is a black character in SWTOR and have the sweetest romance. Koth is Liam's pre-cursor. So, BioWare has male black characters here and there, and tbh I don't feel they are there just to be tokens. I guess Vivienne is black in Inquisition? I have never romanced Jacob, but I liked his story. What I have not seen in a BioWare's game since Yoshimo and Jade Empire, is the Asians on the crew by some reason. And Aarin Gend in NWN. Wasn't Kasumi Japanese? But @op, he probably feels token because the future is oddly whitewashed for a time when humans have certainly become more of a melting pot than they are now... and it doesn't help that his romance in particular is one great big stereotype.
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Post by capn233 on Mar 2, 2017 1:37:55 GMT
I wouldn't really call him the first black featured character in the series given Anderson had a whole book about him long before Jacob was thought up.
I only play manShep, so if he came off as token anything to me it seemed like he was just supposed to be the token professional human soldier in ME2.
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Post by senya on Mar 2, 2017 2:03:55 GMT
Oh, if he was the token black guy, he'd have done something grossly offensive like cheating on a Femshep who romanced him.
Oh, wait...
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 6, 2017 17:58:02 GMT
-Singular character with very dark skin (no, Anderson is lighter) -Absentee father who he has to track down, follows in father's footsteps while not doing too much about that -Quits his commitments in several ways, moving from fulfillment to fulfillment -Not particularly very skilled in anything, compared to most squadmates -Tries to fit human bro role, after a game where you may have already established that with Kaidan, or at least an alien version with Wrex or Garrus -Gets in with a rough crowd, criminals really, but has few objections to it, and in fact defends them -The only character to 'speak black'; the pinnacle being "PRIZZEEEEEE" -Leaves Shepard for another woman, woman is pregnant within short order, breaks it to Shepard as if it wasn't going to hurt her -Seems to be important at first, then blends into the crowd as if he was only a diversity insert
Tokenism isn't just about including for the sake of including that one thing - its about putting lazy or potentially even malicious effort towards them being portrayed as a stereotype or at least a subject of that race, ahead of being a person. A token to use, not a character to explore. Frankly I'm a little glad ME2 didn't have m/m romance because if any of the games would have used more blatant tokenism, it would have been ME2 (ME3 shaped up at least a little).
That said, Bioware can and has used tokenism and stereotypical and even blandly archetypal characters, but there's always a small to large degree of subverting those expectations, at least if one cares to notice.
I can even do that with Jacob, to respond to my list above: -There are other black characters, so it isn't totally fair to say he's the only black -Tracking down his father is important to him, and learning from his father's mistakes is important, and his father wasn't necessarily scum from the start, but corrupted in time -He has his reasons for quitting and they can be considered rational enough -Just because he doesn't have great specialty, it doesn't mean he's useless in Combat or Biotics or his role in the Normandy. His advice is generally useful and his powers enough to be in battle. And no, he doesn't 'die first' (black tokenism in horror films). -Many people start with ME2 or don't have particular attachment to the males in ME1. There's nothing that necessitates 'bros' to stop with them. -He only defends Cerberus to a degree, and he finds it easy enough to decide to leave them. He's not as apart from Cerberus as Shepard is, but he has affinity for Shepard's position. -His voice is mostly fine most of the time. Its okay to have different dialects. -This is a big one. Shepard and Jacob never make clear this is a committed relationship. Looking at most of the romances neutrally, most of them are NOT committed. They are not monogamous. They are sexual connections, sure. They are mental attachments, sure. They can IMPLY emotional monogamy, OK. But Shepard and Jacob was largely a seduction and sex before a suicide mission; Shepard can view it as more, and Jacob can indeed feel love for Shepard, but these things do not mean that they declared to be TOGETHER. This one is about as annoying to me as people claiming Ashley is a gigantic space racist. -He's still more major than many characters, and some other squadmates. Its not like he was picked up on a super boring optional sidemission and barely regarded afterward.
One of the sadder stereotypical things about his character is his romantic pattern.
Doesn't believe Miranda deserves him.
'Cheats' on Shepard'.
And jumps into things with Brynn. Implications may be bad.
But I think people miss the point. Brynn is the one he's good with. It is made super clear. Post-ending, they'll almost certainly stick together. Miranda was a might-have-been but didn't happen, and Shepard could be a could-have-been but won't happen, but Brynn will happen. But still, the lack of character is present.
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 7, 2017 7:29:37 GMT
Other than being femshep's space mandingo, i never saw much of a point to Jacob's character.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 7, 2017 13:17:42 GMT
Other than being femshep's space mandingo, i never saw much of a point to Jacob's character. human bro for the bro shooter side of ME
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 7, 2017 15:02:56 GMT
Other than being femshep's space mandingo, i never saw much of a point to Jacob's character. human bro for the bro shooter side of ME I had Zaeed for that.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 7, 2017 21:46:57 GMT
human bro for the bro shooter side of ME I had Zaeed for that. He is a jerk and rebellious towards you. That's not a bro. He just likes shooting things he hates. No, bad bro.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 9, 2017 1:21:40 GMT
Vega was the tropey latino soldier for sure. He was like every latino soldier in hollywood movies. You've probably seen his character a million times under the name "Rodriquez" in sci fic and military films lmao.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 9, 2017 7:07:56 GMT
Vega was the tropey latino soldier for sure. He was like every latino soldier in hollywood movies. You've probably seen his character a million times under the name "Rodriquez" in sci fic and military films lmao. Vega: "Hey" "Hey" "Hey"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 8:11:14 GMT
I joked about it, but I didn't really think it was serious. There's another post in this thread that words all of this more intelligently than I'm willing to put effort into though.
Nice Buzzfeed-tier title though.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 9, 2017 8:42:47 GMT
Yes he is and he's just a boy toy to Female Shepard and they didn't make him a man. But what do you expect from BioWare? At least Ubisoft does a better job writing black people with human qualities.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 9, 2017 16:19:05 GMT
Vega was the tropey latino soldier for sure. He was like every latino soldier in hollywood movies. You've probably seen his character a million times under the name "Rodriquez" in sci fic and military films lmao. Vega: "Hey" "Hey" "Hey" Loco Yes he is and he's just a boy toy to Female Shepard and they didn't make him a man. But what do you expect from BioWare? Ubisoft does a better job writing black people with human qualities. Really? the lead protagonist of Watch Dogs 2 was Tropey Mc Troperson.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 11, 2017 10:00:29 GMT
Loco Yes he is and he's just a boy toy to Female Shepard and they didn't make him a man. But what do you expect from BioWare? Ubisoft does a better job writing black people with human qualities. Really? the lead protagonist of Watch Dogs 2 was Tropey Mc Troperson. So what's that supposed to mean?
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 12, 2017 11:45:22 GMT
Pretty sure making Jacob turn out the way he did was entirely a response to the nerdrage about ME2 from people who hated him.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 16, 2017 4:39:15 GMT
actually, Valygar came before Jacob, and Dynaheir was even earlier, though she was more purple... Felix Iresso is a black character in SWTOR and have the sweetest romance. Koth is Liam's pre-cursor. So, BioWare has male black characters here and there, and tbh I don't feel they are there just to be tokens. I guess Vivienne is black in Inquisition? I have never romanced Jacob, but I liked his story. What I have not seen in a BioWare's game since Yoshimo and Jade Empire, is the Asians on the crew by some reason. And Aarin Gend in NWN. Wasn't Kasumi Japanese? But @op, he probably feels token because the future is oddly whitewashed for a time when humans have certainly become more of a melting pot than they are now... and it doesn't help that his romance in particular is one great big stereotype. They made him into a stereotype on purpose it's not an accident.
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Post by ToLazy4Name on May 12, 2017 23:35:16 GMT
Token as in Tokenism Definition: "Tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to be inclusive to members of minority groups"Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TokenismNot my opinion. I heard someone make this argument recently. It struck me as a little bit racist. Not to me cuz I aint' black, but because I think it's untrue and only something one would say if they find it peculiar that he happens to be black. My argument for it: First featured black guy in the narrative... I guess? My argument against it: His character nor loyality quest had nothing to do with his race. Anyway, I hadn't thought of this before. What does BSN think? People say this for two reasons: 1. His character is extremely bland 2. If you romance him he cheats on you and gets another woman pregnant, which is hilariously stereotypical
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Post by dmc1001 on May 13, 2017 3:07:13 GMT
Token as in Tokenism Definition: "Tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to be inclusive to members of minority groups"Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TokenismNot my opinion. I heard someone make this argument recently. It struck me as a little bit racist. Not to me cuz I aint' black, but because I think it's untrue and only something one would say if they find it peculiar that he happens to be black. My argument for it: First featured black guy in the narrative... I guess? My argument against it: His character nor loyality quest had nothing to do with his race. Anyway, I hadn't thought of this before. What does BSN think? People say this for two reasons: 1. His character is extremely bland 2. If you romance him he cheats on you and gets another woman pregnant, which is hilariously stereotypical You forget to mention that his father abandoned him and was sleeping around with a lot of other women. Again, stereotypical, even if not actually typical.
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Post by gkonone on May 13, 2017 5:12:05 GMT
Jacob probably is, as he's the only dark colored main character in the game, apart from Anderson. Which makes no sense as I assume the player base is way more diverse. 'Tokenism' is something different from racism though.
What I've always wondered about the 'token' black or colored guy (they mostly seem to be guys for whatever reason) is, if it's racism, how come the person that is the token black/colored guy is ok with it? I would assume that if they're not ok with it, they wouldn't participate.
But that's probably another discussion.
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Post by steppinrazor on Jun 3, 2017 8:18:08 GMT
Jacob probably is, as he's the only dark colored main character in the game, apart from Anderson. Which makes no sense as I assume the player base is way more diverse. 'Tokenism' is something different from racism though. What I've always wondered about the 'token' black or colored guy (they mostly seem to be guys for whatever reason) is, if it's racism, how come the person that is the token black/colored guy is ok with it? I would assume that if they're not ok with it, they wouldn't participate.But that's probably another discussion. Either they don't see it or they just don't care for whatever reason. We don't all agree on what is offensive, and some black people are irritatingly stubborn about how prevalent racism and prejudice really is. Classically know as an "Uncle Tom" by some. Also, I'm SO glad no one here has said that Anderson isn't "really black". lol
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Post by aoibhealfae on Jun 3, 2017 15:22:33 GMT
So... Emily Wong the token chinese girl. Kai Leng the token chinese boy. Captain Matsuo the token japanese woman. Bhatia the token Indian guy. Khalisah the token Arab punching bag. Oleg Petrovsky the token russian guy.... and Anderson not a token black guy? He's also British with an American accent that make Captain Jack Harkness proud.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 3, 2017 15:29:46 GMT
So... Emily Wong the token chinese girl. Kai Leng the token chinese boy. Captain Matsuo the token japanese woman. Bhatia the token Indian guy. Khalisah the token Arab punching bag. Oleg Petrovsky the token russian guy.... and Anderson not a token black guy? He's also British with an American accent that make Captain Jack Harkness proud. I think it's pretty clear the discussion is referring to squadmates. All the human squadmates are white. We don't get another black squadmate until MEA, but at least he's less stereotypical in background and [for romanced Shepard going into ME3] behavior. Of course, he's no worse than Shepard, who could potentially cheat on both ME1 and ME2 romances if desired. And MEA is a cheatfest with the flings.
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