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Post by Iddy on Aug 13, 2016 7:28:44 GMT
While I believe that it makes for a better story with less perfect endings and morally grey, it isn't easy to RP the reasoning in such a choice. In truth, killing Connor is only defensable if Jowan was allowed to escape and the Warden specifically told him "I don't want to see you again". That way the blood ritual option is never presented at all. Otherwise, you simply can't claim that you did what was "necessary".
So the Warden doesn't want to risk leaving Redcliffe castle to talk to the mages. That is actually understandable. But then s/he had a readily available alternative option to save Connor (blood ritual) and turned it down because... s/he doesn't like it. That is all there is to it. A petty whim.
Refusing both is the least logical way to end the quest.
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Post by Command0rk on Aug 13, 2016 8:37:28 GMT
On the contrary.. I found killing Connor to make more sense, logically. It makes sense to banish / kill Jowan after he all but blurts out that he poisoned Arl Eamon. And travelling to the Circle Tower is a long shot, really, the demon would have gladly flattened Redcliffe by then, and Teagan too. But, in the end it comes down to how you play your Warden.
The Circle work around felt a little too perfect to me, did it in my first play through. Connor is dead in my canon worldstate. Not to say it's easy.. leaving Isolde in Connor's room to kill him herself is borderline traumatic to play.
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Post by melbella on Aug 13, 2016 18:04:21 GMT
On the contrary.. I found killing Connor to make more sense, logically. It makes sense to banish / kill Jowan after he all but blurts out that he poisoned Arl Eamon. And travelling to the Circle Tower is a long shot, really, the demon would have gladly flattened Redcliffe by then, and Teagan too. But, in the end it comes down to how you play your Warden. The Circle work around felt a little too perfect to me, did it in my first play through. Connor is dead in my canon worldstate. Not to say it's easy.. leaving Isolde in Connor's room to kill him herself is borderline traumatic to play.
I just finished this quest after not helping Redcliffe. When you return, everyone in the village is gone and Teagan is unconscious in the Chantry. So, the demon deliberately left him alive while killing/taking back to the castle everyone else.
With no mage in my party or recruited, Jowan's option wasn't an option, so it was either kill Connor or get Circle help. Since everyone in the village was already dead, and the ones remaining in the castle were apparently being deliberately not killed, my Dalish hunter reasoned she could get to the Circle and back in enough time. Though the game mechanics brought the whole party, I head-canoned she went alone since she could move faster by herself. Still would need a day to get the mages back by boat, however.
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Post by slimgrin on Aug 13, 2016 19:06:04 GMT
Barring the circle intervention, I generally kill Connor. Not an easy decision, but I see Isolde as being more valuable in the big picture, and Connor as collateral damage.
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Post by Command0rk on Aug 13, 2016 23:51:55 GMT
On the contrary.. I found killing Connor to make more sense, logically. It makes sense to banish / kill Jowan after he all but blurts out that he poisoned Arl Eamon. And travelling to the Circle Tower is a long shot, really, the demon would have gladly flattened Redcliffe by then, and Teagan too. But, in the end it comes down to how you play your Warden. The Circle work around felt a little too perfect to me, did it in my first play through. Connor is dead in my canon worldstate. Not to say it's easy.. leaving Isolde in Connor's room to kill him herself is borderline traumatic to play.
I just finished this quest after not helping Redcliffe. When you return, everyone in the village is gone and Teagan is unconscious in the Chantry. So, the demon deliberately left him alive while killing/taking back to the castle everyone else.
With no mage in my party or recruited, Jowan's option wasn't an option, so it was either kill Connor or get Circle help. Since everyone in the village was already dead, and the ones remaining in the castle were apparently being deliberately not killed, my Dalish hunter reasoned she could get to the Circle and back in enough time. Though the game mechanics brought the whole party, I head-canoned she went alone since she could move faster by herself. Still would need a day to get the mages back by boat, however.
Good catch in regards to Teagan, I forgot about that bit. But yes, a few of my world states have Connor alive via the Circle work around; it really does depend on your roleplaying and head canons, I think. The world state I mentioned above was a no-nonsense Dwarf Noble, with very little knowledge of magic, of course. As far as she was concerned, leaving Redcliffe could spell the end of the Grey Warden's ally; so she reasoned that dealing with Connor immediately was the only way to proceed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2016 6:32:15 GMT
I never kill Connor; I always take the 'nice' Circle route. Sorry...
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Post by Nashimura on Aug 14, 2016 7:32:18 GMT
I actually ignore the 3rd option in most of my playthroughs, i feel like it makes for a much more interesting decision when you have to pick between killing Connor or Isolde.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2016 7:34:31 GMT
I actually ignore the 3rd option in most of my playthroughs, i feel like it makes for a much more interesting decision when you have to pick between killing Connor or Isolde. I would kill Isolde and not feel much about it; she brought it upon herself, is what I think.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 14, 2016 10:22:20 GMT
Killing Connor is the most simple solution. Problem is solved quickly and efficiently. In my canon worldstate my Warden did the blood ritual with Jowan, Isolde sacrificed herself and Connor is possessed. Arl Eamon is one of the most annoying characters in DAO. I told him to release Jowan, but that stubborn old man refused. I wish I could have used wardens right of conscription right there and then, but unfortunately for some reason that option was not available. The reason why my Warden allowed Connor to be possessed is because he made a deal with the demon: it would teach him what it knows about blood magic in exchange for Connor. It seemed like a good deal to him.
I think the blood magic ritual is the best option available (if you want to save Connor). Traveling all the way to Mage Tower is too unbelievable. The demon would realize what is going on and when the Warden returns they should find nothing but corpses and ruins, no Connor or anyone else alive. Jowan's ritual is also very fascinating - a way to stop demon possession. Templars just kill any mages who are possessed - but this ritual tells us that there are other ways to stop demonic possession. It doesn't always have to end with the possessed person being killed - there is a way to help them.
Remember Scout Grandin from JOH? We had only two options - to either kill him or let the demon continue to kill the hakkonites. Where was the third option? To try to banish the demon and save Grandin like we could save Connor?
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Post by Nashimura on Aug 14, 2016 14:08:29 GMT
I actually ignore the 3rd option in most of my playthroughs, i feel like it makes for a much more interesting decision when you have to pick between killing Connor or Isolde. I would kill Isolde and not feel much about it; she brought it upon herself, is what I think. Thats the way it normally plays out for me, unless i am roleplaying a character who has no time for all that demon shit. Or if i let go/kill Jowan, that narrows things down a little.
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Post by straykat on Aug 14, 2016 19:15:07 GMT
The first time I played I accidentally killed him (by walking towards Eamon's bed). Not much to analyze there.. it's just an accident. Then I played ideally for awhile and tried do perfect runs (or what I saw as perfect).
But in my final days of replaying again, I went back to a lot of old choices. Connor dead, ultimate sacrifice, etc.. I'm happy with it, in the end.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 14, 2016 20:34:49 GMT
I'm tempted to kill that dumb kid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2016 22:28:43 GMT
While I believe that it makes for a better story with less perfect endings and morally grey, it isn't easy to RP the reasoning in such a choice. In truth, killing Connor is only defensable if Jowan was allowed to escape and the Warden specifically told him "I don't want to see you again". That way the blood ritual option is never presented at all. Otherwise, you simply can't claim that you did what was "necessary". So the Warden doesn't want to risk leaving Redcliffe castle to talk to the mages. That is actually understandable. But then s/he had a readily available alternative option to save Connor (blood ritual) and turned it down because... s/he doesn't like it. That is all there is to it. A petty whim. Refusing both is the least logical way to end the quest. Again? This is the exact same thread that was made over on BSN. So I'll copy and paste the reply I made there... 'To any Warden who's just a regular Ferelden and who left the tower in the hands of the Templars and despises blood magic, killing him is the logical choice. Only a mage would have the knowledge and confidence to try and fix him. A regular Cousland wouldn't even know how to start with any of that. Or a dwarf from Orzammar. Or a city elf. There are many ways to approach the issue. Roleplaying and understanding the origin of your character and who you want them to be can lead you to killing him. It doesn't make them evil. As both Teagan and Alistair say, to them, as normal regular folk, the only way to deal with demon possession is to kill the host. Declaring that 'a petty whim' is quite arrogant. It's merely your opinion. I've killed him twice, saved him twice, and will leave him possessed and do the blood magic ritual once. I can justify those actions for every warden, every time. It fits their narrative.'
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 15, 2016 21:42:10 GMT
You made me think of something I hadn't before; how can you even go to the Circle for help? It's easy to forget but the party travels for days between locations. Given the attacks were coming nightly, why does Conner just sit in his room and wait quietly?
It does make sense to have to choose.
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Post by Nayawk on Aug 16, 2016 22:51:02 GMT
It really depends on how you are playing the Warden.
My Amell killed Connor. She is fanatically anti blood magic, so both Jowan and his fix are off the table and letting a demon run all over Redcliffe while she hikes back to the Tower is not an option. So death to the kid. Unpleasant but necessary, which pretty much sums up her personality.
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Post by HYR on Aug 19, 2016 15:37:18 GMT
Saving Connor is only justifiable if you left Redcliffe to the demon attack and the villagers were wiped out.
If there are still people there, leaving is highly irresponsible, not to mention contradicts the Warden's decision to stay.
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Post by HYR on Aug 19, 2016 15:40:54 GMT
I'm tempted to kill that dumb kid.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Aug 26, 2016 15:41:46 GMT
It all depends on your Warden's attitude toward mages and which of your companions are friends versus allies of convenience. If you have a Cullen-like attitude toward mages and especially blood magic, your are not going to sacrifice Isolde and you are not going to trust Jowan to keep the demon in check while you seek aid from the tower. Killing Connor is the only option. I can see this being done by a human noble and perhaps a city elf. I think of dwarves -- either noble or commoner -- as having a more neutral attitude towards mages and being open to suggestions. Dalish elves and, of course, mages, are likely to be pro-mage.
Typically, my Wardens are pro-mage, positively influenced by Wynne (though suspicious of Morrigan and Flemeth). You can't take the decision to kill either Isolde or Connor lightly. After all, you want Arl Eamon on your side. The way I headcanon it, if you accept Sten into your team because he shows remorse (even though he doesn't totally level with you about what happened until later), then trusting Jowan isn't that big of a leap. Jowan, at least, is more articulate about what he did, why he did it, and why he now wants to make up for it. I believe that what allowed demon-possessed Connor to lay siege to Redcliffe is the lack of a magical counterforce. A powerful mage like Jowan can, IMHO, hold the demon in check while the Warden seeks aid from the Circle. (You should also be able to leave members of your team to keep both Connor and Jowan in check, but BW didn't think of that.) Doing all that to save Connor isn't as strenuous to your team as what you have to do to save the Arl: go to Denerim, get sent to Lake Calenhad by fake Weylon, go back to Denerim to kill fake Weylon and then go to Haven to find the Sacred Ashes. (Is it any wonder that none of your companions is fat!)
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Post by Iddy on Aug 26, 2016 18:09:17 GMT
Come again? Being pro-mage doesn't instantly equal being pro blood magic
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 18:11:03 GMT
I never let Isolde sacrifice herself if Jowan stays to help. I will always go to the tower knowing he will watch over Connor/the demon. If he is killed/leaves, I will have Isolde/myself end Connor's suffering.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Aug 26, 2016 20:22:48 GMT
Come again? Being pro-mage doesn't instantly equal being pro blood magic I didn't mean to suggest that. Although I think even a loyalist mage like Wynne might agree to the use of blood magic in this case because Isolde wants to voluntarily sacrifice herself to save her child.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 27, 2016 3:33:23 GMT
Come again? Being pro-mage doesn't instantly equal being pro blood magic I didn't mean to suggest that. Although I think even a loyalist mage like Wynne might agree to the use of blood magic in this case because Isolde wants to voluntarily sacrifice herself to save her child. I know Alistair is relatively okay with it. His disapproval points can be reduced through persuasion. The same isn't true about Wynne, however.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Aug 27, 2016 16:42:22 GMT
It comes down to what type of character you're playing. My warden would never in a billion years kill a child. And even though Isolde is annoying, in his POV, she's an innocent and only tried to protect her son (wrong decisions but that is love), so sacrificing her is out of question. Plus the next stop after Redcliffe was the Circle anyway, they might as well get the help they need there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 17:43:36 GMT
I always try and complete Broken Circle before I save Connor because of the unexpected "delay" lol I can actually picture Jowan, Isolde and Teagan all hiding behind chairs as a raged Desire Demon using Connor's body is having a tantrum and throwing things around, and Jowan is wondering where the Warden is since it's been more than 2 days. The scene then cuts to the Warden fast asleep in front of Sloth
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Post by dayze on Aug 27, 2016 23:31:39 GMT
Well; going to the circle might work if your warden was evil or somewhat morally ambiguous.
If they don't care "that" much about keeping the civilians alive and the thought of having some nobles indebted to you on that level had some pretty serious pro's.
And if your character was confident enough in themselves that they could slay the demon if worst came to worst.....well, it was a risk worth taking.
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